The point I was trying to convey to you (reading so many of Roberts books confirmed this for me) was that this man prayed for the sick, cast out devils and saw mighty miracles and he had never spoken in tongues, or realized any power in its use.
Then when he had a need to grow in faith to fulfill what he believed to be Gods plan to have a college built, he ultilized this manifestation to grow in an understanding of how to see it come to pass.
It seems that Roberts faith in God, believing God, taking action and releasing our faith were key factors in him producing so many feats for God.
..."In short, to believe something is proof based on faith is not proof at all."...
lindyhopper
Amen, amen, & amen to that lindyhopper.
That is reality for sure. Just because I believe something does not make it true unless what I believe can be proved to be true. And to try to prove what I beleive to be true just because of my FAITH is utter NON Sence and babbling about in some strange thought that others should accept as true because I believe it to be so. Such is religion.
Holy Cow you hit it right on... dig
Why can't we all be as honest as "Where is the Proof?" Where is the evidence? (Oh , but you must accept by it all by "Faith"! ) Yeah, sure, and I use to put my teeth under the pillow for some kind of 25 cent fairye, well I am sure inflation has it about a buck or two now.
Where is the proof!
Where is the evidence? a two thousand year old experience of dead witnesses written in an leather bound gold leaf of KJV in the book of ACTS....
25 cents under all your pillows of faith based upon inflation of THE TRUTH, whatever that may be.
Remember the sun does not revolve around the earth.... it only seems that way... and the stars still do shine even though the sun is out!!!
..."But what seemed to bother me the most were those Intermediate Class "exceller sessions". It just didn't seem right that something supernatural from God would require so much intervention from man. Like some here, it really bugged me when they insisted that we practice by going through the alpabet in order to "increase our fluency". I kept think, "chapter and verse. Where in the bible did the believers of the first century church need to do such a thing?" I also wondered what a person who's tongue did not have certain english aphabet sounds was supposed to do. Many Asian languages do not have an "r" sound for instance. That's why chinese speakers have such a difficult time with words like, "rice". But nobody ever seemed to question the logic of these practices. But I did all the time."
Cherished Child
I also QUESTioned like 'nobody', but accepted my 'nobody' status.
I don't know if I am a child of god, but hope I am cherished to be one if i am one.
You are right on..."Where in the bible did the believers of the first century church need to do such a thing?" ....
I wish I could reply to every word written 'pon this thread. The dobros play with strings in tune and I am just a listening to all the chords presented here, a cheer to my soul of thot... to think
Rok On
Song
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on January 07, 2004 at 14:10.]
Ever notice that those folks in your "twig" who were a little slow or had an obvious mental handicap were ALWAYS very inept at the supposed "worship manifestations"? And those that were bright, articulate, or multi-lingual already were just as likely to be very adept at it?
Almost makes you think that maybe it has something to do with "natural" abilities rather than spiritual ones.
And what the hey does Almighty God want with us speaking in gibberish anyway? Just how is making unintelligible sounds - in private - supposed to bring some sort of great benefits to Him or to our lives? That never made any sense to me.
But then His ways are so much higher than mine, who am I to question, right?
"Just go along with the program George! Geeze Pete, why do you haveta question stuff anyway?"
God knows your heart when you pray with your understanding, right? So why is it better for God to tell you what to pray for....to him. Sounds like a little bit of a control freak if that were the case.
Seems like we were just discussing this over in Doctrinal. :D-->
I wonder if the apparent fact that some people spoke in tongues with ease, some had trouble and some admit to faking is because Wierwille's teaching that "anyone who is born again has the ability to speak in tongues" is wrong.
It says that the manifestation (singular) of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Isn't "manifestation" synonymous with "evidence"? In other words, ever man will be given evidence of that holy spirit?
Then verses 9 & 10 go through the "for to one is given..." and the "anothers". It took Wierwillian scriptural gymnastics to get those verses to say that everyone should speak in tongues, everyone should interpret, everyone should discern spirits, with his teaching that it _really_ meant for to one (profit)...to another (profit)...to another (profit). Seems kind of a stretch.
Hi Oakspear. Yeah,it does seem like a continuation of the How do we Know thread, doesn't it?:-)
That section of the class is one I have yet to work through, but It always felt strained to me too. And it's at odds with the passage at the end of the same chapter that lists tongues and intepretation in the same context as gift ministries. VP covered himself on that one by talking about "longsuits". Everone, he said, can speak in tongues, but some do it much better than others. That's kind of what I was getting at in my post too. I still believe it's available for any born again Christian to do it. But some just don't have the faith or desire to do so.
Let me get this straight. God suppies the words, but you form the words. BUT you can decide to form the words the way you would like to, like from the front or back of your mouth or an "A" or "G" sound. Isn't that a little contradictory?
Not at all Lindy. Let me clarify something. When I decide to use an L" word for instance, all I control or premeditate physically is the first consonant. God supplies the rest by inspiration. If I decide to form words in the back of my mouth, I'm not premeditating whole words, or even letters. Just where the letters are coming from.
The thing you have to rmember is WHO we're dealing with. God almighty can supply a sentence that begins wiht the consonant "L" at the drop of a hat. If he can create the vastness of the known universe, populate a planet with the immense wonders that are found here on Earth, I don't think inspired utterance challenges Him in the least.
quote:American Heritage Dictionary:
Speak:1. To utter words or articulate sounds with ordinary speech modulation; talk.
2a. To convey thoughts, opinions, or emotions orally. b. To express oneself
If we limit our understanding of the words "speak" and "utterance" to the American Heritage Dictionary, we're going about this kind of sideways aren't we? The Scripture should be the starting place, keeping in mind the context of the passages and books as well as the intent of the writers.
Acts 2:4 sums it up nicely. They began to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance. As VP said, the people start the action, and God supplies the "utterance" the complete words and their meaning. It's a joint effort requiring both human and divine participation.
Think of it like breathing. We can open our mouths and suck inward, but we only draw life-giving oxygen because God has provided us a pressurized atomosphere to breathe. As your lungs expand, the air flows inward. If you were placed in the vacuum of space, you could work your lungs all you want, but you wouldn't get any air would you? Would you be breathing? Technically yes. Would it do you any good. Absolutely not. Because that which God normally provides is absent. (I know it's a flawed analogy, but I hope it conveys my point). Speaking in tongues is similar in that, as I start to form a sound--just a vowel or consonant--God sends a stream of inspired utterance through me and together, we keep the steam going as long as I want to.
The first incident of tongues recorded in the KJV includes this verse: "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language" (Acts 2:6)
Sure Paul goes into "instructions", but those are ambiguous and pretty skimpy for something that we've been led to believe is such a big deal...and with no other scriptural support, Paul's "instructions" depart completely from the original experience.
Ever notice that those folks in your "twig" who were a little slow or had an obvious mental handicap were ALWAYS very inept at the supposed "worship manifestations"? And those that were bright, articulate, or multi-lingual already were just as likely to be very adept at it?
Actually George, I've not noticed any connection between intellect or eloquence and fluency in speaking in tongues.
quote:And what the hey does Almighty God want with us speaking in gibberish anyway? Just how is making unintelligible sounds - in private - supposed to bring some sort of great benefits to Him or to our lives? That never made any sense to me.
I know you've heard this before. The benefits are many. One; it does provide proof of the inner presence of the holy spirit. Two: it brings peace and joy; But the central issue, imo, is the one TWI talked about least. It's worshipping God in spirit and truth.
Think of it this way. We are sinful, corrupt beings, whose works tend to end up being tainted one way or another by our greed, lust, anger, etc. Such is the nature of religion. So what better way to worship God than to do it in such as way that bypasses all of our carnal mind, our ulterior motives, our greed, etc. Speaking in tongues is a simple sacrifice of praise. It's a way of thanking and praising God with all the human bull**** taken out. The best way to enjoy speaking in tongues is not to focus on yourself, but on GOD, to whom the praise is offered.
let me repeat that. Speaking in tongues is not about US, it's about GOD. If you offer it in thanksgiving, you will be blessed. If you do it as a way to Get something; (rest, energy, revelatinon, etc) you may come away empty-handed.
Same principle applies in interpretation. When I first started, it was very difficult because I was self-concious. It wasn't until I focused on the othe people in the room in an effort to bless them, that the "flow" started and it worked the way it's supposed to. Like most things God designs, the manifestations work best when approached with faith, love, and a giving attitude.
..."In short, to believe something is proof based on faith is not proof at all."...
lindyhopper
Amen, amen, & amen to that lindyhopper.
I would agree if that statement were pertinent. Saying something is proof of faith when you have to take the proof on faith is indeed circular logic. But that's not the case with tongues. Let's start with the Scripture and then I'll offer an example of how this "proof" works in real life.
quote:I Corinthians 14:22
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Who is the proof for? For seasoned Christians? No, it's for unbelievers. It's a sign to unbelievers, not to the faithful. The purpose of speaking in tongues is to prove that there's more to Christianity, more to the Gospel, than a good rap and a lifestyle. When someone hears the gospel he or she may be very skeptical or cynical depending on his or her cutlure, past experiences, or mindset. Hearing the gospel might not be enough to move them to take it as more than another religion. Hearing the gospel and seeing someone speak in tongues communicates that there's more to it than a good rap; that it's more than just another religion.
Seeing someone healed in the name of Jesus Christ would probably have the same effect, but we can't plan on having someone miraculously healed whenever an unbeliever comes to meeting now can we?
I know of two real world examples of this principle in action. The first is me. When Deb got involved with TWI, I was a cynical college student, fearful and distrustful of all fundamentalists. I attended twig and was mildly impressed with the teacher's ability to weave together Scriptures from Genesis and II Peter logically, but what really got my attention was the manifestations. I had never seen or heard anything like that and it shook me. I was looking for spiritual power and that indicated that these people had some.
Fast forward a year or two. I was witnessing on campus to someone like me, hard-headed, pragmatic, intellectual skeptic who was in search of godly power. As I witnessed to him, I stoppend and began to speak in tongues out loud--one of the few times I've done that sans interpretation--He was stunned. He literally took a step back, wide-eyed and speechless. That got his attention and he ended up taking the class and becoming one of the most devout believers I've ever met. Today, he's my best friend and still bases all of his decisions on God's will. He's stil incredibly cynical and has very little tolerance for religion or most people, but he doesn't doubt the reality of God, Christ or the power of the spiritual realm. Because he saw somebody speak in tongues.
That's what it's about. Speaking in tongues gets the attention of seekers and proves that there's real power behind the Gospel. It really is proof, and it works the way God intended it to.
"Actually George, I've not noticed any connection between intellect or eloquence and fluency in speaking in tongues."
I would suggest then, that your experiences and mine differ greatly in that regard. I noticed it CONSTANTLY, and it bothered me no end. I could never figure out why the retarded guy in twig only had about three "words" in his vocabulary or the 3 and 4 year-olds repeated the exact same thing over and over. Wasn't it God giving the utterance? Didn't seem like it to me...
And with regards to the "benefits", again our experiences are markedly disparate. Yes, at first it SEEMED like a big deal. WOW! Here was PROOF that God was real.
But after a few months, and eventually years, of doing it, was it really all that profound anymore? Think about it. Almighty God concocts a bizarre way of talking to Himself to tell Himself how great He is. This doesn't seem a little odd to you?
The actual good that this act performs still escapes me. You're sitting in your house, privately making incomprehensible noises to an invisible being, because He supposedly likes you to. And just what good does that do? No, I don't want a rundown of the reasons given in PFAL, just a common sense explanation of what is going on that could possibly be beneficial to the creator of the universe.
You make noise. O.K. fine. What does that noise-making accomplish? Do the sounds infuriate the Devil? Maybe make him weak? How does that work?
And if this noise-making is SOOOO powerful (as I'm led to believe) why is it that the effects of doing it - or NOT doing it (as I have NOT been for many years) are virtually impossible to measure? Personally, I know I've seen ZERO difference in my life since I ceased noise-making 15 or so years ago.
I still don't see any scriptural or even logical basis to the belief that we should practice speaking in tongues, via contrived "excellor sessions". It just makes no sense that I should have to predetermine even the first syllable. God is either big enough to bring forth the whole thing without my "input" or he's not. Everything to the core of my being tells me that this is not of God.
George, I noticed the same thing, except that I qualified it slightly differently. The better people could think on their feet, and speak extemporaneously, the better they were at all the "worship manifestations."
"As VP said, the people start the action, and God supplies the "utterance" the complete words and their meaning. It's a joint effort requiring both human and divine participation."
In every miracle Jesus and the Acts believers did, there was an action taken, either by the healer or the healee.
When the man attempted to stretch forth his hand, God supplied the energy to do it.
When the women attempted to touch Jesus's clothes, God released virtue (power) from Jesus to heal her.
I believe that the manifestations work the same way. And not just SIT, but all nine.
When jesus said: "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"
Vp uses this verse to help us understand speaking in tongues, but this principle is also explaining all the operations of the Holy Spirit.
It is a flowing out, a release, taking an action that releases the spiritual evidence.
John also says: "But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified."
This also fits with VP's teaching on Pletho, filled to overflowing (emphasis on speaking in tongues), but Acts uses the word to describe the outflowing of word of knowledge and word of Wisdom. Acts 4:8
This is just my opinion, but if a manifestation of the Holy Spirit is Word of Knowledge, than we have the Holy Spirit of revelation. If a manifestation of the HS is word of Wisdom, than we have a HS of Wisdom. If a manifestation of HS is Faith, We have the HS of Faith. Continue right thru all nine.
These evidences flow out of us as we act.
This is, I believe, why other preachers say to release your faith, the faith of God in Christ which is a spiritual quality of the HS in us.
Then that verse, "building up your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost (HS) make sense, because our operation of Holy Spirit is also a overflowing and a release, which also requires a building up or a refueling, or a recharging, so to speak.
We can even take VP's teaching on Receive, retain, and release a step futher (beyond just the three r's of speaking the word) to the 3 R's of operating Holy Spirit.
A Quote from RTHST:
"There is potential power in the water of Niagara Falls, but it is unbridled power unless the great dynamos convert it into usable energy. If we use our God-given spiritual abilities, we shall then be effective witnesses of His power from above, "AS HIS ABILITY IS RELEASED BY US".
imho, VP was on to something, but his greatest desire was to manifest SIT, thus he didn't completely put the whole picture together concerning the Holy Spirit and its inflow and outflow. In my opinion, his longsuit or greatest contribution was an understanding of Speaking in tongues, not all nine.
[This message was edited by Lightside on January 08, 2004 at 10:57.]
..."That's what it's about. Speaking in tongues gets the attention of seekers and proves that there's real power behind the Gospel. It really is proof, and it works the way God intended it to. "
Peace
JerryB
***
JerryB,
Thank you for your words this thread.
One of the reasons I started this thread is that late one evening I was channel surfing and came ashore one of those PTL type of shows. This lady was preaching to a full house of at least 4000. She really had the audience her full attention and participation. The choir and the 'elders' in the background with a wonderful setting of props and plants. Top of the line stage set. She was just a speaking her heart those decible levels of shouts and laughter and praise and then she would intermittingly SIT. The camera would pan the audience, as well the choir and those seated on the stage. Their faces would either have closed or wide open eyes and their arms raised above their heads or palms up at their sides and vocal praise etc in response those outbursts of tongues. I thought it was rather amusing. That was to an audience of at least 4000. Is that proof SIT is real or rather a response of heightened emotions?
I truely at one time beleived in the manifestation of SIT. Here's my 'faith proof' it works. This single mom, a pfal grad in my twig, was having trouble with her child sleeping at night. The child would just cry and cry and cry himself to sleep. She called and asked me over one evening to hear this temper of a child in the crib. I was the twig co ya know. Oh the child would cry alright. I asked her if it would be okay to enter the childs room . She agreed. I just stood over the crib and silently spoke in tongues. Within just a few minutes the child was asleep. I exited the room and she inquired what happened. I told her that SIT is intercession for the saints and rest for the soul and that since her child was not yet old enough to believe, he was covered under her protection. She called me back several evenings to repeat the aformentioned intevention of intersesssion because when she tried what I did, it did not work for her, but worked for me and the child I was "ministering" to via sit. I told her, "Please take you son to the pediatrician." (THIRD AID) Come to find out, the child had cholic. After proper medical remedy he was able to go to sleep on his own.
Now, really JerryB., you actually think that experience is proof of sit? Man that's a flip of the coin and no proof at all. Heads its proof, tails its not; or next time the flip, tails its proof, heads it not. The child simply cried itself to sleep and I just happen to be there sit. Or flip the coin, I just simply sit while the child cried itself to sleep. Or flip the coin again...
It really is no proof at all and that is what I am being honest about. I just do not see the proof that sit is real just because of experiences.
I experience that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, but that does not make it so.
Anyone remember "sitmuch?" My goodness, that must've looked weird the outside world!
Whoops, almost derailing this thread, aren't I?Now you guys can get back to the alphabet.
corrydj
NEVER KICK A COW CHIP ON A HOT DAY!!
ABCDEFG
HIJK
LMNOP
QRST
U&V
WX
Y&Z
Now I've said my ABC's
Tell me what you think of me?
Yo DJ, i doubt very seriously you have even begun to derail this thread. It's all responses to those who have reply'd. I mean, take for eg. bango strings... it's all sit (stay in tune) ...
:D-->
;)-->
ps... remember those stop sign stickers with S.I.T. written in the middle that was to be posted on our dash boards...
You wrote: ?I still don't see any scriptural or even logical basis to the belief that we should practice speaking in tongues, via contrived "excellor sessions". It just makes no sense that I should have to predetermine even the first syllable. God is either big enough to bring forth the whole thing without my "input" or he's not. Everything to the core of my being tells me that this is not of God.?
At one time I thought similarly, but this was well over 30 years ago. As time went by in that more positive atmosphere of learning we grads enjoyed in the 1970?s, I gradually collected pieces of understanding for the scriptural and logical basis behind the PROPERLY conducted excellor sessions. There were improperly conducted ones for sure, so I felt it my duty to volunteer as an excellor session coordinator whenever the Intermediate Class was run, once I understood the logic behind it all.
The main reason for excellor sessions and their SOMETIMES contrived non-spiritual utterances is to help people calm down their fears. I have seen numerous people come to their first excellor session as white as a sheet with fear that they are going to do it wrong.
A measured amount of humor and laughter is often helpful in such a situation. The improperly held excellor sessions often were ones where the humor element got a bit out of hand.
One of the first exercises I would do is get people into SIT fluency by removing the ?fear? of saying something that?s not genuine or strange sounding. Quite a few people thought that if commonly heard SIT sounds like ?lo shunta? didn?t pop up often, then they were in the wrong. I would spell out nonsense words for everyone to say in unison, like ?splubadux,? just to get people familiar with having a strange word come out of their mouth. A few such words would often break the ice and everyone would have a good laugh, much less fearful about the more serious attempts to ?let it flow.?
If a new student would always start out with the same SIT sounds or the same interpretation words, I?d not say anything for a while, and let them use these ?comfort crutches? for a few sessions just to get started.
When we?d get into SIT fluency sessions using certain letters of the alphabet to key off or initiate tongues, I?d show them Psalm 119 and how God used the Hebrew alphabet to key off each section in alphabetical order. If I limit God to the sound of a letter ?k? for the first sound in a round of SIT, He is resourceful enough to make it come out all right by supplying the appropriate sounds to follow my predetermined ?k? sound of initiation.
God is big enough to do anything as long as it doesn?t violate His own principles. He can?t lie and He can?t make us love. He also can?t make us get over our fears or be super spiritual. He can?t force us to do anything.
Helping people to get over their fear and getting their mouth into motion was the whole point of excellor session contrivances.
Quite some time ago a Dr. William T. Samarin spent several years studying SIT practitioners.
Here's a quote from his subsequent book:
"It is extremely doubtful that the alleged cases of xenoglossia (miraculous speech in real languages) are real. Anytime one attempts to verify them, he finds that the stories have been greatly distorted or that the 'witness' turns out to be incompetent or unreliable from a linguistic point of view" (Tongues of Men and Angels, MacMillan, 1972, pp.112-115).
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Lightside
Hi Plots,
The point I was trying to convey to you (reading so many of Roberts books confirmed this for me) was that this man prayed for the sick, cast out devils and saw mighty miracles and he had never spoken in tongues, or realized any power in its use.
Then when he had a need to grow in faith to fulfill what he believed to be Gods plan to have a college built, he ultilized this manifestation to grow in an understanding of how to see it come to pass.
It seems that Roberts faith in God, believing God, taking action and releasing our faith were key factors in him producing so many feats for God.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
..."In short, to believe something is proof based on faith is not proof at all."...
lindyhopper
Amen, amen, & amen to that lindyhopper.
That is reality for sure. Just because I believe something does not make it true unless what I believe can be proved to be true. And to try to prove what I beleive to be true just because of my FAITH is utter NON Sence and babbling about in some strange thought that others should accept as true because I believe it to be so. Such is religion.
Holy Cow you hit it right on... dig
Why can't we all be as honest as "Where is the Proof?" Where is the evidence? (Oh , but you must accept by it all by "Faith"! ) Yeah, sure, and I use to put my teeth under the pillow for some kind of 25 cent fairye, well I am sure inflation has it about a buck or two now.
Where is the proof!
Where is the evidence? a two thousand year old experience of dead witnesses written in an leather bound gold leaf of KJV in the book of ACTS....
25 cents under all your pillows of faith based upon inflation of THE TRUTH, whatever that may be.
Remember the sun does not revolve around the earth.... it only seems that way... and the stars still do shine even though the sun is out!!!
Rok on
Song
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
..."But what seemed to bother me the most were those Intermediate Class "exceller sessions". It just didn't seem right that something supernatural from God would require so much intervention from man. Like some here, it really bugged me when they insisted that we practice by going through the alpabet in order to "increase our fluency". I kept think, "chapter and verse. Where in the bible did the believers of the first century church need to do such a thing?" I also wondered what a person who's tongue did not have certain english aphabet sounds was supposed to do. Many Asian languages do not have an "r" sound for instance. That's why chinese speakers have such a difficult time with words like, "rice". But nobody ever seemed to question the logic of these practices. But I did all the time."
Cherished Child
I also QUESTioned like 'nobody', but accepted my 'nobody' status.
I don't know if I am a child of god, but hope I am cherished to be one if i am one.
You are right on..."Where in the bible did the believers of the first century church need to do such a thing?" ....
Song
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
I wish I could reply to every word written 'pon this thread. The dobros play with strings in tune and I am just a listening to all the chords presented here, a cheer to my soul of thot... to think
Rok On
Song
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on January 07, 2004 at 14:10.]
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George Aar
Ever notice that those folks in your "twig" who were a little slow or had an obvious mental handicap were ALWAYS very inept at the supposed "worship manifestations"? And those that were bright, articulate, or multi-lingual already were just as likely to be very adept at it?
Almost makes you think that maybe it has something to do with "natural" abilities rather than spiritual ones.
And what the hey does Almighty God want with us speaking in gibberish anyway? Just how is making unintelligible sounds - in private - supposed to bring some sort of great benefits to Him or to our lives? That never made any sense to me.
But then His ways are so much higher than mine, who am I to question, right?
"Just go along with the program George! Geeze Pete, why do you haveta question stuff anyway?"
Yeah, yeah, shuah, shuah,...
geo.
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lindyhopper
And why is it "perfect prayer"?
God knows your heart when you pray with your understanding, right? So why is it better for God to tell you what to pray for....to him. Sounds like a little bit of a control freak if that were the case.
"That's right tell Me what I like to hear!"
lol
Who's your daddy?
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Georgio Jessio
I always kinda thought it bordered on possesion. Like I am channeling a message from God that HE controls. That always freaked me out.
Glow-ry!
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Jbarrax
Hi Oakspear. Yeah,it does seem like a continuation of the How do we Know thread, doesn't it?:-)
That section of the class is one I have yet to work through, but It always felt strained to me too. And it's at odds with the passage at the end of the same chapter that lists tongues and intepretation in the same context as gift ministries. VP covered himself on that one by talking about "longsuits". Everone, he said, can speak in tongues, but some do it much better than others. That's kind of what I was getting at in my post too. I still believe it's available for any born again Christian to do it. But some just don't have the faith or desire to do so.
JerryB
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Jbarrax
Not at all Lindy. Let me clarify something. When I decide to use an L" word for instance, all I control or premeditate physically is the first consonant. God supplies the rest by inspiration. If I decide to form words in the back of my mouth, I'm not premeditating whole words, or even letters. Just where the letters are coming from.
The thing you have to rmember is WHO we're dealing with. God almighty can supply a sentence that begins wiht the consonant "L" at the drop of a hat. If he can create the vastness of the known universe, populate a planet with the immense wonders that are found here on Earth, I don't think inspired utterance challenges Him in the least.
If we limit our understanding of the words "speak" and "utterance" to the American Heritage Dictionary, we're going about this kind of sideways aren't we? The Scripture should be the starting place, keeping in mind the context of the passages and books as well as the intent of the writers.
Acts 2:4 sums it up nicely. They began to speak as the Spirit gave them utterance. As VP said, the people start the action, and God supplies the "utterance" the complete words and their meaning. It's a joint effort requiring both human and divine participation.
Think of it like breathing. We can open our mouths and suck inward, but we only draw life-giving oxygen because God has provided us a pressurized atomosphere to breathe. As your lungs expand, the air flows inward. If you were placed in the vacuum of space, you could work your lungs all you want, but you wouldn't get any air would you? Would you be breathing? Technically yes. Would it do you any good. Absolutely not. Because that which God normally provides is absent. (I know it's a flawed analogy, but I hope it conveys my point). Speaking in tongues is similar in that, as I start to form a sound--just a vowel or consonant--God sends a stream of inspired utterance through me and together, we keep the steam going as long as I want to.
Hope that helps.
Peace
JerryB
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CoolWaters
I have a question about SIT...
How come interpretation is needed?
The first incident of tongues recorded in the KJV includes this verse: "Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language" (Acts 2:6)
Sure Paul goes into "instructions", but those are ambiguous and pretty skimpy for something that we've been led to believe is such a big deal...and with no other scriptural support, Paul's "instructions" depart completely from the original experience.
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Jbarrax
Actually George, I've not noticed any connection between intellect or eloquence and fluency in speaking in tongues.
I know you've heard this before. The benefits are many. One; it does provide proof of the inner presence of the holy spirit. Two: it brings peace and joy; But the central issue, imo, is the one TWI talked about least. It's worshipping God in spirit and truth.
Think of it this way. We are sinful, corrupt beings, whose works tend to end up being tainted one way or another by our greed, lust, anger, etc. Such is the nature of religion. So what better way to worship God than to do it in such as way that bypasses all of our carnal mind, our ulterior motives, our greed, etc. Speaking in tongues is a simple sacrifice of praise. It's a way of thanking and praising God with all the human bull**** taken out. The best way to enjoy speaking in tongues is not to focus on yourself, but on GOD, to whom the praise is offered.
let me repeat that. Speaking in tongues is not about US, it's about GOD. If you offer it in thanksgiving, you will be blessed. If you do it as a way to Get something; (rest, energy, revelatinon, etc) you may come away empty-handed.
Same principle applies in interpretation. When I first started, it was very difficult because I was self-concious. It wasn't until I focused on the othe people in the room in an effort to bless them, that the "flow" started and it worked the way it's supposed to. Like most things God designs, the manifestations work best when approached with faith, love, and a giving attitude.
Isn't that why I Corinthians 13 is where it is?
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
I would agree if that statement were pertinent. Saying something is proof of faith when you have to take the proof on faith is indeed circular logic. But that's not the case with tongues. Let's start with the Scripture and then I'll offer an example of how this "proof" works in real life.
Who is the proof for? For seasoned Christians? No, it's for unbelievers. It's a sign to unbelievers, not to the faithful. The purpose of speaking in tongues is to prove that there's more to Christianity, more to the Gospel, than a good rap and a lifestyle. When someone hears the gospel he or she may be very skeptical or cynical depending on his or her cutlure, past experiences, or mindset. Hearing the gospel might not be enough to move them to take it as more than another religion. Hearing the gospel and seeing someone speak in tongues communicates that there's more to it than a good rap; that it's more than just another religion.
Seeing someone healed in the name of Jesus Christ would probably have the same effect, but we can't plan on having someone miraculously healed whenever an unbeliever comes to meeting now can we?
I know of two real world examples of this principle in action. The first is me. When Deb got involved with TWI, I was a cynical college student, fearful and distrustful of all fundamentalists. I attended twig and was mildly impressed with the teacher's ability to weave together Scriptures from Genesis and II Peter logically, but what really got my attention was the manifestations. I had never seen or heard anything like that and it shook me. I was looking for spiritual power and that indicated that these people had some.
Fast forward a year or two. I was witnessing on campus to someone like me, hard-headed, pragmatic, intellectual skeptic who was in search of godly power. As I witnessed to him, I stoppend and began to speak in tongues out loud--one of the few times I've done that sans interpretation--He was stunned. He literally took a step back, wide-eyed and speechless. That got his attention and he ended up taking the class and becoming one of the most devout believers I've ever met. Today, he's my best friend and still bases all of his decisions on God's will. He's stil incredibly cynical and has very little tolerance for religion or most people, but he doesn't doubt the reality of God, Christ or the power of the spiritual realm. Because he saw somebody speak in tongues.
That's what it's about. Speaking in tongues gets the attention of seekers and proves that there's real power behind the Gospel. It really is proof, and it works the way God intended it to.
Peace
JerryB
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George Aar
"Actually George, I've not noticed any connection between intellect or eloquence and fluency in speaking in tongues."
I would suggest then, that your experiences and mine differ greatly in that regard. I noticed it CONSTANTLY, and it bothered me no end. I could never figure out why the retarded guy in twig only had about three "words" in his vocabulary or the 3 and 4 year-olds repeated the exact same thing over and over. Wasn't it God giving the utterance? Didn't seem like it to me...
And with regards to the "benefits", again our experiences are markedly disparate. Yes, at first it SEEMED like a big deal. WOW! Here was PROOF that God was real.
But after a few months, and eventually years, of doing it, was it really all that profound anymore? Think about it. Almighty God concocts a bizarre way of talking to Himself to tell Himself how great He is. This doesn't seem a little odd to you?
The actual good that this act performs still escapes me. You're sitting in your house, privately making incomprehensible noises to an invisible being, because He supposedly likes you to. And just what good does that do? No, I don't want a rundown of the reasons given in PFAL, just a common sense explanation of what is going on that could possibly be beneficial to the creator of the universe.
You make noise. O.K. fine. What does that noise-making accomplish? Do the sounds infuriate the Devil? Maybe make him weak? How does that work?
And if this noise-making is SOOOO powerful (as I'm led to believe) why is it that the effects of doing it - or NOT doing it (as I have NOT been for many years) are virtually impossible to measure? Personally, I know I've seen ZERO difference in my life since I ceased noise-making 15 or so years ago.
geo.
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Cherished Child
I still don't see any scriptural or even logical basis to the belief that we should practice speaking in tongues, via contrived "excellor sessions". It just makes no sense that I should have to predetermine even the first syllable. God is either big enough to bring forth the whole thing without my "input" or he's not. Everything to the core of my being tells me that this is not of God.
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corrydj
thanks excath...
Anyone remember "sitmuch?" My goodness, that must've looked weird the outside world!
Whoops, almost derailing this thread, aren't I?Now you guys can get back to the alphabet.
corrydj
NEVER KICK A COW CHIP ON A HOT DAY!!
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LG
George, I noticed the same thing, except that I qualified it slightly differently. The better people could think on their feet, and speak extemporaneously, the better they were at all the "worship manifestations."
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Lightside
You said:
"As VP said, the people start the action, and God supplies the "utterance" the complete words and their meaning. It's a joint effort requiring both human and divine participation."
In every miracle Jesus and the Acts believers did, there was an action taken, either by the healer or the healee.
When the man attempted to stretch forth his hand, God supplied the energy to do it.
When the women attempted to touch Jesus's clothes, God released virtue (power) from Jesus to heal her.
I believe that the manifestations work the same way. And not just SIT, but all nine.
When jesus said: "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, "out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water"
Vp uses this verse to help us understand speaking in tongues, but this principle is also explaining all the operations of the Holy Spirit.
It is a flowing out, a release, taking an action that releases the spiritual evidence.
John also says: "But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given because that Jesus was not yet glorified."
This also fits with VP's teaching on Pletho, filled to overflowing (emphasis on speaking in tongues), but Acts uses the word to describe the outflowing of word of knowledge and word of Wisdom. Acts 4:8
This is just my opinion, but if a manifestation of the Holy Spirit is Word of Knowledge, than we have the Holy Spirit of revelation. If a manifestation of the HS is word of Wisdom, than we have a HS of Wisdom. If a manifestation of HS is Faith, We have the HS of Faith. Continue right thru all nine.
These evidences flow out of us as we act.
This is, I believe, why other preachers say to release your faith, the faith of God in Christ which is a spiritual quality of the HS in us.
Then that verse, "building up your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost (HS) make sense, because our operation of Holy Spirit is also a overflowing and a release, which also requires a building up or a refueling, or a recharging, so to speak.
We can even take VP's teaching on Receive, retain, and release a step futher (beyond just the three r's of speaking the word) to the 3 R's of operating Holy Spirit.
A Quote from RTHST:
"There is potential power in the water of Niagara Falls, but it is unbridled power unless the great dynamos convert it into usable energy. If we use our God-given spiritual abilities, we shall then be effective witnesses of His power from above, "AS HIS ABILITY IS RELEASED BY US".
imho, VP was on to something, but his greatest desire was to manifest SIT, thus he didn't completely put the whole picture together concerning the Holy Spirit and its inflow and outflow. In my opinion, his longsuit or greatest contribution was an understanding of Speaking in tongues, not all nine.
[This message was edited by Lightside on January 08, 2004 at 10:57.]
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Pirate1974
The first time I visited the Way Home in Greenville, NC, I went to use one of the bathrooms and there was a big sign above the toilet that said "SIT."
I thought, "Thanks, but I really don't need to do that this time."
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
..."That's what it's about. Speaking in tongues gets the attention of seekers and proves that there's real power behind the Gospel. It really is proof, and it works the way God intended it to. "
Peace
JerryB
***
JerryB,
Thank you for your words this thread.
One of the reasons I started this thread is that late one evening I was channel surfing and came ashore one of those PTL type of shows. This lady was preaching to a full house of at least 4000. She really had the audience her full attention and participation. The choir and the 'elders' in the background with a wonderful setting of props and plants. Top of the line stage set. She was just a speaking her heart those decible levels of shouts and laughter and praise and then she would intermittingly SIT. The camera would pan the audience, as well the choir and those seated on the stage. Their faces would either have closed or wide open eyes and their arms raised above their heads or palms up at their sides and vocal praise etc in response those outbursts of tongues. I thought it was rather amusing. That was to an audience of at least 4000. Is that proof SIT is real or rather a response of heightened emotions?
I truely at one time beleived in the manifestation of SIT. Here's my 'faith proof' it works. This single mom, a pfal grad in my twig, was having trouble with her child sleeping at night. The child would just cry and cry and cry himself to sleep. She called and asked me over one evening to hear this temper of a child in the crib. I was the twig co ya know. Oh the child would cry alright. I asked her if it would be okay to enter the childs room . She agreed. I just stood over the crib and silently spoke in tongues. Within just a few minutes the child was asleep. I exited the room and she inquired what happened. I told her that SIT is intercession for the saints and rest for the soul and that since her child was not yet old enough to believe, he was covered under her protection. She called me back several evenings to repeat the aformentioned intevention of intersesssion because when she tried what I did, it did not work for her, but worked for me and the child I was "ministering" to via sit. I told her, "Please take you son to the pediatrician." (THIRD AID) Come to find out, the child had cholic. After proper medical remedy he was able to go to sleep on his own.
Now, really JerryB., you actually think that experience is proof of sit? Man that's a flip of the coin and no proof at all. Heads its proof, tails its not; or next time the flip, tails its proof, heads it not. The child simply cried itself to sleep and I just happen to be there sit. Or flip the coin, I just simply sit while the child cried itself to sleep. Or flip the coin again...
It really is no proof at all and that is what I am being honest about. I just do not see the proof that sit is real just because of experiences.
I experience that the sun rises in the east and sets in the west, but that does not make it so.
Rok On
StevenH.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
whoops double post
[This message was edited by TheSongRemainsTheSame on January 08, 2004 at 12:29.]
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
ABCDEFG
HIJK
LMNOP
QRST
U&V
WX
Y&Z
Now I've said my ABC's
Tell me what you think of me?
Yo DJ, i doubt very seriously you have even begun to derail this thread. It's all responses to those who have reply'd. I mean, take for eg. bango strings... it's all sit (stay in tune) ...
ps... remember those stop sign stickers with S.I.T. written in the middle that was to be posted on our dash boards...
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Mike
Cherished Child,
You wrote: ?I still don't see any scriptural or even logical basis to the belief that we should practice speaking in tongues, via contrived "excellor sessions". It just makes no sense that I should have to predetermine even the first syllable. God is either big enough to bring forth the whole thing without my "input" or he's not. Everything to the core of my being tells me that this is not of God.?
At one time I thought similarly, but this was well over 30 years ago. As time went by in that more positive atmosphere of learning we grads enjoyed in the 1970?s, I gradually collected pieces of understanding for the scriptural and logical basis behind the PROPERLY conducted excellor sessions. There were improperly conducted ones for sure, so I felt it my duty to volunteer as an excellor session coordinator whenever the Intermediate Class was run, once I understood the logic behind it all.
The main reason for excellor sessions and their SOMETIMES contrived non-spiritual utterances is to help people calm down their fears. I have seen numerous people come to their first excellor session as white as a sheet with fear that they are going to do it wrong.
A measured amount of humor and laughter is often helpful in such a situation. The improperly held excellor sessions often were ones where the humor element got a bit out of hand.
One of the first exercises I would do is get people into SIT fluency by removing the ?fear? of saying something that?s not genuine or strange sounding. Quite a few people thought that if commonly heard SIT sounds like ?lo shunta? didn?t pop up often, then they were in the wrong. I would spell out nonsense words for everyone to say in unison, like ?splubadux,? just to get people familiar with having a strange word come out of their mouth. A few such words would often break the ice and everyone would have a good laugh, much less fearful about the more serious attempts to ?let it flow.?
If a new student would always start out with the same SIT sounds or the same interpretation words, I?d not say anything for a while, and let them use these ?comfort crutches? for a few sessions just to get started.
When we?d get into SIT fluency sessions using certain letters of the alphabet to key off or initiate tongues, I?d show them Psalm 119 and how God used the Hebrew alphabet to key off each section in alphabetical order. If I limit God to the sound of a letter ?k? for the first sound in a round of SIT, He is resourceful enough to make it come out all right by supplying the appropriate sounds to follow my predetermined ?k? sound of initiation.
God is big enough to do anything as long as it doesn?t violate His own principles. He can?t lie and He can?t make us love. He also can?t make us get over our fears or be super spiritual. He can?t force us to do anything.
Helping people to get over their fear and getting their mouth into motion was the whole point of excellor session contrivances.
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George Aar
Quite some time ago a Dr. William T. Samarin spent several years studying SIT practitioners.
Here's a quote from his subsequent book:
"It is extremely doubtful that the alleged cases of xenoglossia (miraculous speech in real languages) are real. Anytime one attempts to verify them, he finds that the stories have been greatly distorted or that the 'witness' turns out to be incompetent or unreliable from a linguistic point of view" (Tongues of Men and Angels, MacMillan, 1972, pp.112-115).
Anyone read the book?
geo.
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TheSongRemainsTheSame
Pirate are you sure the one of bathrooms you entered was not the ladies room...
ROFLMAO
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