I too having thinking about John 10:10 the Way Cult main bible verse
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
The thief of what?
Which kind of life?
More than abundantly which kinds of things?
The Way taught the thief was Jesus Christ but never taught what will be took
the curse of death is what Jesus Christ came to take away as for as I see
the Way taught that this life was spiritual and this life more than abundantly would be confort here on earth in the fleshly way - nice home and lots money to live in comfort
While I agree the life that we receive is spiritual life but to have spiritual life more than abundantly is to receive comforts in the spiritual form and not the fleshly form like the Way wanted us to think
just think rewards in heaven but not just rewards spiritual rewards
I believe this "more abundant" life Jesus is offering, was not an abundant material, physical life here on earth. He came for one reason, and one reason only, to proclaim that there is coming, another place, dimension, heaven, new earth, however you want to imagine it. He came to offer eternal life and a new spiritual body and free access to God.
The owner and ruler of this planet has stepped out, so to speak, for a short time. The inhabitants have trashed the house. He will be coming back to clean up.
I think what he is saying here is the thief, Satan, comes to kill - here on earth; steal - your opportunity to have eternal fellowship with God; and destroy - your soul. Not in the sense of annihilation, but in the sense of, you will not enter into God's glory and will spend eternity outside of God. Christ was giving mankind then, and now, via the prophets, Bible, his apperance himself, Holy Spirit, creation, and in the tribulation, 2 witnesses and 3 angels warning mankind not to take the mark, the opportunity to choose.
Think what that means. A place, outside of God, for eternity. No light, no love, no kindess. A billion raging souls in a fallen, unredeemed state, no holds barred, ego run rampant, no law, no rule for eternity. No hope of redemption - a willing rejection of the offer.
As Dante said, in his work the inferno, what is the most horrible thing about hell? There is no hope of death.
I think we have been taught to take this verse out of context. This is one of those verses that just about every minister quotes, but few "rightly divide".
Weirwille and other fundy preachers have taught us to think the thief of John 10:10 is the Devil or Satan. The Devil may be a thief, but This passage isn't talking about him.
The context inidcates that the thief is a false messiah. Verse 8 says, "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them."
The thief who steals, kills, and destroys, is a false messiah, one who pretends to be annointed of God and leads sincere people to destruction. I'm sure many here would put Craig and VP in this category. That's rather ironic, in my opinion. According to the context, we have more abundant life when we are able to discern the voice of the Lord from those of the impostors. I wonder how many of us have been able to make that distinction and how many are still being stolen from...
Jerry, Dan, good points. I should have clarified. I too believe it is other "ministers" who lead people away from the narrow gate.
It is not the devil himself doing this, but those ministers, angels of light, posing as God's minister, whether in Christianity or any other religion, who lead people away from Christ.
Excath - to answer your question, yes. If you want, I can recommend several good books to you, available on Amazon. I believe, in these last days, God is revealing to people the reality of what is to come.
For me, I was uneducated and did not really know what the Word said regarding the topic. Its amazing what's in there.
Jerry, Dan, good points. I should have clarified. I too believe it is other "ministers" who lead people away from the narrow gate.
It is not the devil himself doing this, but those ministers, angels of light, posing as God's minister, whether in Christianity or any other religion, who lead people away from Christ.
Excath - to answer your question, yes. If you want, I can recommend several good books to you, available on Amazon. I believe, in these last days, God is revealing to people the reality of what is to come.
For me, I was uneducated and did not really know what the Word said regarding the topic. Its amazing what's in there.
Sunesis, in this you raise an interesting point in favor of the possibility of "the thief" in Jn. 10:10 being suggestive of Satan.
Might the material in Jn. 10 also being considered a continuation of the idea in John 8, "Ye are of your father the Devil"?
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
It's interesting that he says "All" that ever came before me.
And yes, Danny, the remote context of 'your father the devil' is quite interesting too.
How was that the devil 'fathered these people who supposedly taught the Law.
All that ever came before him? I think it means every Baal worshipper, sun god, moon god, Apollo, Abbadon, Baal, etc., every "god" that was worshipped, every false religion that originated in Babylon (figurative) which shall be destroyed (Jezebel and Babylon) at the end.
Israel was chosen (or Abraham, as its father) because, while surrounded by idol worship, false religions, whatever the world was worshipping at that time, Abraham did not. He believed, and worshipped the one true God, the "I Am", him that inhabits eternity.
Any religion that promises you can be as gods, or can enter into God's presence by your own "holiness," whether by religious ritual, following a leader, or an idol, the law, without the need of a saviour, I guess includes anything from Cain to present day.
Only Christ made us holy enough to enter into God - the holy of holies.
Only Christ will give us the new, celestial bodies needed to inhabit this new heaven - no other that came before him - nor after.
And of course, beware of "Strangers" , through exhortation to the sheep instinct: "They will never follow a Stranger" - also ironic in view of those of the audience which didn't recognize or comprehend His voice. The editor had to throw that one in there as warning to his community to not stray after those brothers and sisters no longer in their "household" which had recently "went out" from them (cf. the epistles of John), whose God was actually called by the title "The Stranger" ( a title surviving among Syrian Marcionites even as late as the fouth century).
The God of the Marcionites was also mocked as a "Thief" by Tertullian and others, a strange new God "overcoming the strong man of the house"
and acquiring the old god's personal property of humanity.
To which the original Marcionite writer of "Philippians" responded to such apparent widespread charges, "But He did not consider it robbery..."
not to overlook Paul's frequent assurance "I lie not..."
The author of "John" had an axe to grind with his former scribe, Marcion. Not unlike churches and movements which split today, to which we
are most certainly well aware from our own personal experience.
The controversies surrounding the production of these scriptures were quite dramatic.
Jn 10:10 really needs to be seen in context starting definitely no later than Jn 9:39 where JC is confronting the Pharisees, and perhaps as early as 9:1. In fact, Jn 10:10 forms part of his reply to them.
Steal –from whom? Kill, yes, kill the sheep, kill the owner’s livelihood (in purely physical terms). Destroy – who or what? Not just destroy the sheep, but destroy the wealth that is represented by the sheep, destroy the owner of the sheep.
Sure the thief would steal the sheep’s life, but is that the context?
Isn’t the context firstly the physical description of a thief breaking in and sheep-rustling (no doubt an image that most people at the time could relate to); and then the spiritual sheep-rustlers stealing from the spiritual owner? Stealing from JC/God?
At this point, JC is referring to himself as the “door” (Jn 10:9).
From the next verse (Jn 10:11), he refers to himself as the “shepherd” and starts a new image, of wolves getting in amongst the sheep, again an image the people of the time could easily relate to.
The context also includes the shepherd’s personal sacrifice if necessary (10:17) but not at any point the sheep’s (sheep singular or plural) loss or sacrifice.
The confrontation is of false ministers, those not serving their “flocks”. (As I write this, my eye catches 9:10: any man (sheep?) “shall go in and out” and find pasture/what it needs – so the sheepfold is not a cult-walled prison!)
TWI taught this verse so personally (well, after all, we have a personal adversary) (!) that the wider context has been completely lost.
TWI was focussed on materiality – even “prosper and be in health” - such that the wider meaning of prosperity (meaning simply to do well in every sense) and having life abundantly (meaning enjoyment and fulfilment) became almost a non-issue and people couldn’t see it in a context of anything but materiality. TWI never focussed on the theft from their people of the people’s wellbeing and enjoyment of life, only on their financial state. There are still those who think solely in these terms.
= = = = =
Isn’t the “all” in “all that ever came before me” just in context of those claiming to be the door or the shepherd?
Otherwise you are excluding not just baal worshippers but prophets that are well-spoken of, and other leaders like Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, which is clearly not what is meant.
It still all-in-all is the methodology of the devil; no matter who he employs to do it. I see your points. I just sometimes wonder why they have to be made. I don't mean any offense to anyone and I respect your knowledge and understanding and research.
I might add that your points are all good...and well founded. I too see the great necessary to investigate whether what I was taught by anyone is valid or not. I just sometimes wonder whether if in our quest we may be fogging the issues or clarifing them??? It appears to me that in many ways the devil has accomplished his purpose in dividing us as through out all history. This is only my observations; and I am quite aware that I have no ability to address doctrinal issues. The results of the present divisions sadden me!
15John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. 17For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. 18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
I might add that your points are all good...and well founded. I too see the great necessary to investigate whether what I was taught by anyone is valid or not. I just sometimes wonder whether if in our quest we may be fogging the issues or clarifing them??? It appears to me that in many ways the devil has accomplished his purpose in dividing us as through out all history. This is only my observations; and I am quite aware that I have no ability to address doctrinal issues. The results of the present divisions sadden me!
Rainbowsgirl - Welcome to the Cafe "basement".
In my personal opinion the devil has had far less to do with divisions in religious/spiritual movements.
And, I might add - divisions and splits in movements & groups are not always necessarily a bad thing.
Consider our experience with twi - if not for the "divisions", there would doubtless be many people here still
stuck in a tyrannical organization.
I must strongly disagree with "I have no ability to address doctrinal issues" (!).
All that is being discussed and explored in this part of the forum are nothing more than ideas, beliefs, interpretations,
theories, and yes, even personal opinions. And thankfully there's quite a variety of views.
I hope you don't let the word "doctrinal" intimidate you, and that you might enjoy yourself here.
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year2027
God first
Beloved CMan
God loves you my dear friend
I too having thinking about John 10:10 the Way Cult main bible verse
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
The thief of what?
Which kind of life?
More than abundantly which kinds of things?
The Way taught the thief was Jesus Christ but never taught what will be took
the curse of death is what Jesus Christ came to take away as for as I see
the Way taught that this life was spiritual and this life more than abundantly would be confort here on earth in the fleshly way - nice home and lots money to live in comfort
While I agree the life that we receive is spiritual life but to have spiritual life more than abundantly is to receive comforts in the spiritual form and not the fleshly form like the Way wanted us to think
just think rewards in heaven but not just rewards spiritual rewards
just been thinking
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Sunesis
I believe this "more abundant" life Jesus is offering, was not an abundant material, physical life here on earth. He came for one reason, and one reason only, to proclaim that there is coming, another place, dimension, heaven, new earth, however you want to imagine it. He came to offer eternal life and a new spiritual body and free access to God.
The owner and ruler of this planet has stepped out, so to speak, for a short time. The inhabitants have trashed the house. He will be coming back to clean up.
I think what he is saying here is the thief, Satan, comes to kill - here on earth; steal - your opportunity to have eternal fellowship with God; and destroy - your soul. Not in the sense of annihilation, but in the sense of, you will not enter into God's glory and will spend eternity outside of God. Christ was giving mankind then, and now, via the prophets, Bible, his apperance himself, Holy Spirit, creation, and in the tribulation, 2 witnesses and 3 angels warning mankind not to take the mark, the opportunity to choose.
Think what that means. A place, outside of God, for eternity. No light, no love, no kindess. A billion raging souls in a fallen, unredeemed state, no holds barred, ego run rampant, no law, no rule for eternity. No hope of redemption - a willing rejection of the offer.
As Dante said, in his work the inferno, what is the most horrible thing about hell? There is no hope of death.
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excathedra
will people really eternally in that kind of hell ?
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Jbarrax
I think we have been taught to take this verse out of context. This is one of those verses that just about every minister quotes, but few "rightly divide".
Weirwille and other fundy preachers have taught us to think the thief of John 10:10 is the Devil or Satan. The Devil may be a thief, but This passage isn't talking about him.
The context inidcates that the thief is a false messiah. Verse 8 says, "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them."
The thief who steals, kills, and destroys, is a false messiah, one who pretends to be annointed of God and leads sincere people to destruction. I'm sure many here would put Craig and VP in this category. That's rather ironic, in my opinion. According to the context, we have more abundant life when we are able to discern the voice of the Lord from those of the impostors. I wonder how many of us have been able to make that distinction and how many are still being stolen from...
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TheInvisibleDan
I think you nailed it here, Jerry. I've been contemplating this material in John 10 along the same lines, especially in view of the way the chapter
begins: "...he that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber."
Seems a stretch to assume that this be a direct reference to "Satan" or the "Devil" at all.
The immediate context, as you point out, doesn't support this.
Good work.
Danny
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excathedra
cool
oh the irony
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Sunesis
Jerry, Dan, good points. I should have clarified. I too believe it is other "ministers" who lead people away from the narrow gate.
It is not the devil himself doing this, but those ministers, angels of light, posing as God's minister, whether in Christianity or any other religion, who lead people away from Christ.
Excath - to answer your question, yes. If you want, I can recommend several good books to you, available on Amazon. I believe, in these last days, God is revealing to people the reality of what is to come.
For me, I was uneducated and did not really know what the Word said regarding the topic. Its amazing what's in there.
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TheInvisibleDan
Sunesis, in this you raise an interesting point in favor of the possibility of "the thief" in Jn. 10:10 being suggestive of Satan.
Might the material in Jn. 10 also being considered a continuation of the idea in John 8, "Ye are of your father the Devil"?
I need to kick this one around little bit.... :)
Danny
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cman
7Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
It's interesting that he says "All" that ever came before me.
And yes, Danny, the remote context of 'your father the devil' is quite interesting too.
How was that the devil 'fathered these people who supposedly taught the Law.
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excathedra
wow
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TheInvisibleDan
Interesting observation Cman; perhaps encompassing even those powers which produced the law, if "all those which came before" included
part if not all of the prophets of the world creator.
Danny
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Danny
Back in the law times when the children of Isreall asked
for a King God said no way you want that but if you must
I'll give you one.
The result was the nut job Saul. So yes how much does all mean.
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Sunesis
All that ever came before him? I think it means every Baal worshipper, sun god, moon god, Apollo, Abbadon, Baal, etc., every "god" that was worshipped, every false religion that originated in Babylon (figurative) which shall be destroyed (Jezebel and Babylon) at the end.
Israel was chosen (or Abraham, as its father) because, while surrounded by idol worship, false religions, whatever the world was worshipping at that time, Abraham did not. He believed, and worshipped the one true God, the "I Am", him that inhabits eternity.
Any religion that promises you can be as gods, or can enter into God's presence by your own "holiness," whether by religious ritual, following a leader, or an idol, the law, without the need of a saviour, I guess includes anything from Cain to present day.
Only Christ made us holy enough to enter into God - the holy of holies.
Only Christ will give us the new, celestial bodies needed to inhabit this new heaven - no other that came before him - nor after.
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cman
Seems to me it's about those who came, and then there's the sheep that didn't hear them.
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TheInvisibleDan
And of course, beware of "Strangers" , through exhortation to the sheep instinct: "They will never follow a Stranger" - also ironic in view of those of the audience which didn't recognize or comprehend His voice. The editor had to throw that one in there as warning to his community to not stray after those brothers and sisters no longer in their "household" which had recently "went out" from them (cf. the epistles of John), whose God was actually called by the title "The Stranger" ( a title surviving among Syrian Marcionites even as late as the fouth century).
The God of the Marcionites was also mocked as a "Thief" by Tertullian and others, a strange new God "overcoming the strong man of the house"
and acquiring the old god's personal property of humanity.
To which the original Marcionite writer of "Philippians" responded to such apparent widespread charges, "But He did not consider it robbery..."
not to overlook Paul's frequent assurance "I lie not..."
The author of "John" had an axe to grind with his former scribe, Marcion. Not unlike churches and movements which split today, to which we
are most certainly well aware from our own personal experience.
The controversies surrounding the production of these scriptures were quite dramatic.
Believe it or not
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Twinky
Jn 10:10 really needs to be seen in context starting definitely no later than Jn 9:39 where JC is confronting the Pharisees, and perhaps as early as 9:1. In fact, Jn 10:10 forms part of his reply to them.
Steal –from whom? Kill, yes, kill the sheep, kill the owner’s livelihood (in purely physical terms). Destroy – who or what? Not just destroy the sheep, but destroy the wealth that is represented by the sheep, destroy the owner of the sheep.
Sure the thief would steal the sheep’s life, but is that the context?
Isn’t the context firstly the physical description of a thief breaking in and sheep-rustling (no doubt an image that most people at the time could relate to); and then the spiritual sheep-rustlers stealing from the spiritual owner? Stealing from JC/God?
At this point, JC is referring to himself as the “door” (Jn 10:9).
From the next verse (Jn 10:11), he refers to himself as the “shepherd” and starts a new image, of wolves getting in amongst the sheep, again an image the people of the time could easily relate to.
The context also includes the shepherd’s personal sacrifice if necessary (10:17) but not at any point the sheep’s (sheep singular or plural) loss or sacrifice.
The confrontation is of false ministers, those not serving their “flocks”. (As I write this, my eye catches 9:10: any man (sheep?) “shall go in and out” and find pasture/what it needs – so the sheepfold is not a cult-walled prison!)
TWI taught this verse so personally (well, after all, we have a personal adversary) (!) that the wider context has been completely lost.
TWI was focussed on materiality – even “prosper and be in health” - such that the wider meaning of prosperity (meaning simply to do well in every sense) and having life abundantly (meaning enjoyment and fulfilment) became almost a non-issue and people couldn’t see it in a context of anything but materiality. TWI never focussed on the theft from their people of the people’s wellbeing and enjoyment of life, only on their financial state. There are still those who think solely in these terms.
= = = = =
Isn’t the “all” in “all that ever came before me” just in context of those claiming to be the door or the shepherd?
Otherwise you are excluding not just baal worshippers but prophets that are well-spoken of, and other leaders like Joshua, Ezra, Nehemiah, which is clearly not what is meant.
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cman
Yes, o Invisable one. There seems to be a 'separtist' tone to many of the writings of that time.
Whenever there is an 'us and them' there is a problem with so many scriptures, that cannot be reconciled.
No wonder there is so many 'cults' and 'religions'.
Every one wants to go their own way with what was said.
Jesus Christ died for the wolves too, they certainly will obtain that which is appointed them.
And not to some endless hell of what God has in every soul, but that which remains forever.
And the sheep, being sheep, follow what they 'hear' accordingly as they 'hear'.
To think for one moment that we are really one body without a sense of each part as it operates.
And to see that there is a purpose for everything under the sun.
There is only one Lord, there is no other.
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TheInvisibleDan
As the high school history teacher working behind the counter at the convenience store around the corner of my house used to speaketh unto me:
"If thou truly will understand history, behold what's happening now..."
Or something to that effect.
He's in Hawaii now. I imagine wearing 3-D sunglasses.
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RainbowsGirl
It still all-in-all is the methodology of the devil; no matter who he employs to do it. I see your points. I just sometimes wonder why they have to be made. I don't mean any offense to anyone and I respect your knowledge and understanding and research.
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RainbowsGirl
I might add that your points are all good...and well founded. I too see the great necessary to investigate whether what I was taught by anyone is valid or not. I just sometimes wonder whether if in our quest we may be fogging the issues or clarifing them??? It appears to me that in many ways the devil has accomplished his purpose in dividing us as through out all history. This is only my observations; and I am quite aware that I have no ability to address doctrinal issues. The results of the present divisions sadden me!
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cman
The thief comes by hearing apparently.
So it must, as Christ comes from within our selves.
What we believe, what the wolf scatters.
Thoghts of one another, leading to action.
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cman
so if the wolf can get to the sheep
the wolf came in the same way as Christ
the thief and robber tries other ways
some will say here is christ or there is christ
when he's closer then your breath
so all that came before where thiefs and robbers
to steal kill and destroy
is there a good reason for this?
i am come, says christ, life and life more abundantly
couldn't get that from those before christ
and what does before him mean?
how long has christ been around?
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cman
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TheInvisibleDan
Rainbowsgirl - Welcome to the Cafe "basement".
In my personal opinion the devil has had far less to do with divisions in religious/spiritual movements.
And, I might add - divisions and splits in movements & groups are not always necessarily a bad thing.
Consider our experience with twi - if not for the "divisions", there would doubtless be many people here still
stuck in a tyrannical organization.
I must strongly disagree with "I have no ability to address doctrinal issues" (!).
All that is being discussed and explored in this part of the forum are nothing more than ideas, beliefs, interpretations,
theories, and yes, even personal opinions. And thankfully there's quite a variety of views.
I hope you don't let the word "doctrinal" intimidate you, and that you might enjoy yourself here.
Danny
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