there are many many churches and gatherings of Christian people that are great. just came from a study fellowship that was such a great time, we're reading through the book of John and are in the 7th chapter. no way or ex way association of any kind.
learning is an exciting adventure, i find that to be very true. being with others that want to do the same is envigorating and healing.
some churches primarily provide services and functions, others provide more fellowship and sharing times, still others blend the two. i think the blend works best - look for that, if you're looking.
"I shoot an arrow into the air...and where it goes I do not care!" A silly rhyme we used to use as young children, yet that seems to be what happened here!
My involvement with TWI, was as a young 21 year old man. I saw serious error in their teaching, questioned it with inteligence, and scolarship as I thought I was tought, and awakened an angry giant. I peeked unfer the covers and saw early on just how rigid TWI could be. It took another year, but I got out.
My original post, was intended to show the power of error...the strength of wrong teaching. My mind knows that TWI took a gem and worked it to their own design, not to empower me. Their path was to have me empower them.
I guess I just miss the company of seekers. There was a core of folks who were truly searching for spiritual meaning in their lives, and to this day I look for signs of that in those I meet. I have been fortuanate to find this for fleeting moments in the oddest circumstances. I have sometimes found this comfort in the Native American sweat lodge ceremony, Sufi dancing, or sitting around a fire with a group of strangers, on a long backpacking trip. God sets the stage, I just wander in, do my time and wander off. Perhaps some day I'll find my place, perhaps the journey is the place.
It's funny I started posting years ago on Waydale, as "Bif", a name my old TWI friends might recognise. I come and go here too, and have watched and partaken in its evolution. Lowly Lolypoppy, Excath, Kitsober, I remember you guys from a long while back. I guess it's comforting to see folks shake it loose and get on with their lives. I know my journey has been most interesting and enlightening, and NEVER would have happened if I'd stayed in TWI.
I know it's your choice, FOOT_ON_A_ROCK, but knowing what I know now I could never go back.
Wanderer,
You were in the Way for a short time a ,long, long time ago. Interesting that you should mention Sufism. My brother lives in Maui and is apart of that. He's the one that turned me onto the Way. It seems that we someimes run to strange gods to try and fill what's missing.
It seems sad that for all these years you are still affected by that ministry. Why would you be??? If your life is so much better than ever having been involved with them, then why for more years than when you were apart of the way have you been talking about them???
What I'm trying to say is, in your own confession " It's funny I started posting years ago on Waydale, as "Bif", a name my old TWI friends might recognise. I come and go here too, and have watched and partaken in its evolution. Lowly Lolypoppy, Excath, Kitsober, I remember you guys from a long while back." You've ben doing this for years??? Why???
"I guess it's comforting to see folks shake it loose and get on with their lives." that's just it. You DONT get on with your lives....
Instead you sit in here reminiscing about the all the people that have caused you pain. You are all a broken record, wallowing in saddness.
there are many many churches and gatherings of Christian people that are great. just came from a study fellowship that was such a great time, we're reading through the book of John and are in the 7th chapter. no way or ex way association of any kind.
learning is an exciting adventure, i find that to be very true. being with others that want to do the same is envigorating and healing.
some churches primarily provide services and functions, others provide more fellowship and sharing times, still others blend the two. i think the blend works best - look for that, if you're looking.
Socks,
What do they teach though? Do they teach J.C. is God? Do they teach the dead are alive now? If you don't have a problem with that then great. If those teachings are filling, then more power to ya.
This specific study group is built around reading and discussion. Average time is about 2 hours when there's tangential discussion off the chapter being read, which is usually the case. :) It's hosted in a home, with some time before and after for getting together and easing in and out. There's a primary faciliitator, although we're circulating through the group with volunteers taking a week here and there. The purpose isn't to have someone teach or attempt to dominate the discussion with a single opinion or interpretation, rather the discussion is gently guided. The idea is to allow there to be some learning and contribution both intellectually and spiritually.
It's both vigorous and thoughtful at different turns. Questions are encouraged, viewpoints varied. There are some fairly mature and knowledgable participants as well as fairly new ones.
As far as what "they" teach, there hasn't been a teaching in the study group or any of the church services we've attended that taught on the topics you're asking about Foot On A Rock. The respect for God, Jesus Christ and God's people is high. No offense but no one calls Jesus Christ "J.C" that I've heard. Yet it's not a stuffy bunch, a lot of young people in their teens to 30's, families, as well as older folks. The pastor's a young guy and very encouraging and enthusiastic in his faith but very rooted and down to earth too, not the least bit impressed with himself.
Those topics could be discussed at great length here. I'd say my view of who Jesus Christ is has expanded considerably beyond the Way's book "Jesus Christ Is Not God". VPW didn't give the topic the breadth of inquiry I think it deserves although he did make what I have come to realize are some good points. But the real question isn't really who Jesus Christ Is NOT, it's who He was and is. I don't think VPW ever really articulated in print what he believed about that, and instead chose to hammer his contention that He wasn't "God". There's more to it than that of course and he knew that I think. To really keep learning beyond what the Way taught and that path of "logic" has been good for me.
The dead - they don't talk much do they? Ultimately only they know what comes next. I don't argue that point one way or the other easily, I'd rather hold my thoughts to myself at this time.
I'm just not a flag waver for any church or group. There's good ones and bad ones. It's worth the time though. I don't think the Way is a "good" church, other than some good people that might be with them. They just don't offer enough for me at this time. For a long time.
I think the reason I recall those days is that they paralelled the time with my first serious relationship. It was the time of spititual awakening within me...It was a tender time and unfortunately wrapped up in the malestrom that TWI is. I share my heart on line to attempt to help myself and others, not to nitpick anothers journey through life.
I wish for nothing but happiness in where ever you choose to fellowship, but for myself TWI is not the way.
Don't think for a minute that my life has been hollow, wounded, or devoid of spiritual experience. Quite the reverse. I've had a very fine life, raised a nice family, and had the opportunity to live in some very fine places. I have seen God move, and place his hand upon my life, I believe I am often "In the right place at the right time", to help Him help us. If my life passed away this very day, I would say I had a full satisfying life.
I am not sure, but you may be in need of medication, such a harsh response! And so mean, I don’t know what to say? It seems like something that happened over 20 years ago (or may not have happened, depending on future proof of course), has attracted such immediate and emotional attention!
Now if I have to supply the burden of proof to console you and possibly others, when there are so many former twi people out there, it might give you the impression of me having to play the role of “professor”! And I really don’t want you to be subjected to such a demeaning position.
So, I will give you another “hint” to help you solve the mystery of “Murder in Norway”. Think of it as an Agetha Christie novel!
The murderer’s initials were CMH and he was often at HQ.
My recollection is that his initials were JH, not CMH. This topic came up on a thread on GS about 7 years ago (or was it Waydale?). He was 11th Corps, but graduated 10th. By reputation and demeanor, a real cold fish, though he must have shown a more approachable side to a few people. If I ever met him I no longer recall.
We can imagine how an insecure and conflicted little cult from Ohio, burdened by compulsions of napoleonic magnitude to compensate for a little, bitty... "panacea" (for abundant living), must have reacted. As soon as they realized they couldn't blame anyone more tangible than the devil (a pretty lame excuse, since everybody else can claim same), they clammed up tighter than Vic's hat-band.
Any normal Christian ministry, faced with such a tragedy, would be praying publicly, 24/7, for the victims and their families, and probably the perp as well. If TWI's leaders prayed at all, it was that it would stay quiet, and not affect the bottom dwellers' bottom line. So much for the "household." God only knows what else has been hidden in the attic or beneath the floorboards all these years.
I invite all former insiders who've since become ex-TWI refugees to spill the beans - here and now - at Greasespot. Confession, not discretion, is good for the soul. Give it up. But start a new thread. Don't derail this one, for Pete's sake.
Then again, in light of this defining episode, have we "abandoned the household of God?" It all depends - upon how we define "household." In the present context, you might substitute for "household" the word "asylum."
Escape and abandonment are not the same things. And if TWI is or was of God, it might be the time to ask what you really know of God, beyond words on a page.
Bumpy, I am sorry for what you went through since it involved your country and your specific area of TWI when you were involved. I don't know if you knew any of the people involved or who were killed and how well you may have known them. I am sorry for the mental anguish that horrendous episode of hearing of fellow believers being murdered and murdered by another fellow believer.
In light of this thread, this does all connect. Even though they were all in another country, the house hold God or the body of Christ, as we so often gave lip service to along with our leaders in TWI, suffered an horrific loss in the murder of fellow believers at the hand of another believer. (I was reading years ago and saw this information posted then so I know as well that Bumpy is telling the truth).
No, we did not hear about it in the US at the time. At least not us peons. No prayers offered for the families of those killed, no prayers offered for the family of the murderer and no prayers offered for those 'saints' whose 'immediate household of God' was killed off. A family of God? Fighting for one another, even here the poor guy is shot down instead of being offered sympathy and understanding. sheesh.
TWI was no household of God. It did not fight for one another. When situations and conditions didn't fit the bill prescribed by their perfect doctrine, it was all swept under the rug, hearts, souls and lives, all swept under the rug or dismissed and disgraced by one liners, "they were out of fellowship, they weren't believing god, they feared." That is not a body working together to stay healthy, to heal itself when one part hurt or suffered, but instead the doctrine of TWI acted as a hack surgeon eagerly waiting to amputate what ever part of the body that suffered instead of looking to heal it.
That is nothing to be ashamed of walking away from. You can't say, and no one can tell you that you abandoned squat when the quack doctors were ready at a moment's notice to amputate you right out of the body the moment you didn't or couldn't work to par for them.
I used to go to church. One morning we were greeted with the news that a missionary couple that belonged to our denomionation, that we never met, that WAS part of our immediate family via the denomination, were murdered in their beds one night far away from us.
The Pastor cried at the pulpit. We bowed our heads and grieved, some cried. We offered prayers for them families and loved ones and that justice would be done and their murderers would be caught. It did not affect our faith in God and it did not affect the faith we had in the church's doctrine. But then we weren't playing super christian teaching nothing bad can happen to us. We had nothing to lose in acknowledging the loss of fellow believers and we grieved together.
Now, that IS a family fighting for one another.
No you can't walk away from something that never existed outside of lip service. It was an illusion and nothing more.
Bumpy, again I am sorry. Feel free to mail me or pm anytime.
As you know, “Corps” always thought they knew best! And anyone like me who was not WAY CORPS, was nothing. So you had to be very careful what you said! Sort of like me getting whacked here at gs by the same ex-corps people, who have that “pull a verse / prove a point” mentality. Man I hate that! But that’s another subject I will deal with in a future posting!
Bumpy-I am pretty certain that you didn't mean to...but really not "all" Corps were like this. At least one that I know of for certain. So for my sake if you could please put a "some" or even a "most" before a comment like that? Thanks. :D
I am sorry for the pain that you endured at the hands of our brethren, and even more so for the pain you certainly went through in Oslo. I heard a faint "grumbling" about this when in happened. But honestly all I got was that something "terrible" had happened. I am certain that my Limb Leader knew about it because as I recall there was a lot of frantic activity around him for a while. But I was not included in his inner circle.
"That is nothing to be ashamed of walking away from. You can't say, and no one can tell you that you abandoned squat when the quack doctors were ready at a moment's notice to amputate you right out of the body the moment you didn't or couldn't work to par for them."
Full Circle-That is probably the best analogy that I have ever heard to describe the M & A practices that the Way employed.
Wanderer- It sounds like you are doing more for the household being away from TWI than you did when you were with them. Bottom line is if you love God and are trying to imitate Christ than chances are that you are heading in the right direction. You did not abandon the household. Your leadership left you high and dry. But they answer for that...not you.
Foot_on_a_rock- All I can say to you is while you are on this site please take advantage of the incredible volumn of information that is available here. While you read things read them with an open mind and remember that the people that wrote them really lived it. No body here will try to blow smoke up your a$$, concerning their personal experiences with TWI. And you are getting some good advice from some really great folks on this thread. It doesn't hurt to listen...does it?
You sound like you are truly searching for the best way to serve God...so search with an open mind and a meek heart. There are some good teachings at TWI but as in all ministries/churches there are also some not so good teachings. Learn to discern them so you can make sound decisions. Above all keep the faith no matter what church you attend. :)
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socks
there are many many churches and gatherings of Christian people that are great. just came from a study fellowship that was such a great time, we're reading through the book of John and are in the 7th chapter. no way or ex way association of any kind.
learning is an exciting adventure, i find that to be very true. being with others that want to do the same is envigorating and healing.
some churches primarily provide services and functions, others provide more fellowship and sharing times, still others blend the two. i think the blend works best - look for that, if you're looking.
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Foot_on_a_rock
Wanderer,
You were in the Way for a short time a ,long, long time ago. Interesting that you should mention Sufism. My brother lives in Maui and is apart of that. He's the one that turned me onto the Way. It seems that we someimes run to strange gods to try and fill what's missing.
It seems sad that for all these years you are still affected by that ministry. Why would you be??? If your life is so much better than ever having been involved with them, then why for more years than when you were apart of the way have you been talking about them???
What I'm trying to say is, in your own confession " It's funny I started posting years ago on Waydale, as "Bif", a name my old TWI friends might recognise. I come and go here too, and have watched and partaken in its evolution. Lowly Lolypoppy, Excath, Kitsober, I remember you guys from a long while back." You've ben doing this for years??? Why???
"I guess it's comforting to see folks shake it loose and get on with their lives." that's just it. You DONT get on with your lives....
Instead you sit in here reminiscing about the all the people that have caused you pain. You are all a broken record, wallowing in saddness.
Socks,
What do they teach though? Do they teach J.C. is God? Do they teach the dead are alive now? If you don't have a problem with that then great. If those teachings are filling, then more power to ya.
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waysider
Foot on a rock
First, let me say welcome to The Cafe.
Have you had a chance to glance at the menu?
You might want to start off with a sampling from "Actual errors in PFAL".
If you find that whets your appetite, there are plenty more samplers, entres and desserts from which to select.
I hope you will find the offerings and service to your liking.
Waysider
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socks
This specific study group is built around reading and discussion. Average time is about 2 hours when there's tangential discussion off the chapter being read, which is usually the case. :) It's hosted in a home, with some time before and after for getting together and easing in and out. There's a primary faciliitator, although we're circulating through the group with volunteers taking a week here and there. The purpose isn't to have someone teach or attempt to dominate the discussion with a single opinion or interpretation, rather the discussion is gently guided. The idea is to allow there to be some learning and contribution both intellectually and spiritually.
It's both vigorous and thoughtful at different turns. Questions are encouraged, viewpoints varied. There are some fairly mature and knowledgable participants as well as fairly new ones.
As far as what "they" teach, there hasn't been a teaching in the study group or any of the church services we've attended that taught on the topics you're asking about Foot On A Rock. The respect for God, Jesus Christ and God's people is high. No offense but no one calls Jesus Christ "J.C" that I've heard. Yet it's not a stuffy bunch, a lot of young people in their teens to 30's, families, as well as older folks. The pastor's a young guy and very encouraging and enthusiastic in his faith but very rooted and down to earth too, not the least bit impressed with himself.
Those topics could be discussed at great length here. I'd say my view of who Jesus Christ is has expanded considerably beyond the Way's book "Jesus Christ Is Not God". VPW didn't give the topic the breadth of inquiry I think it deserves although he did make what I have come to realize are some good points. But the real question isn't really who Jesus Christ Is NOT, it's who He was and is. I don't think VPW ever really articulated in print what he believed about that, and instead chose to hammer his contention that He wasn't "God". There's more to it than that of course and he knew that I think. To really keep learning beyond what the Way taught and that path of "logic" has been good for me.
The dead - they don't talk much do they? Ultimately only they know what comes next. I don't argue that point one way or the other easily, I'd rather hold my thoughts to myself at this time.
I'm just not a flag waver for any church or group. There's good ones and bad ones. It's worth the time though. I don't think the Way is a "good" church, other than some good people that might be with them. They just don't offer enough for me at this time. For a long time.
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excathedra
and what was that egotistical nonsense when he posted something up somewhere on a church door about jesus christ is not god ?
i forget now but yuck
who did he think he was ? the man he wished he knew to be ?????????????????
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Wanderer
Foot_On_A_Rock,
I think the reason I recall those days is that they paralelled the time with my first serious relationship. It was the time of spititual awakening within me...It was a tender time and unfortunately wrapped up in the malestrom that TWI is. I share my heart on line to attempt to help myself and others, not to nitpick anothers journey through life.
I wish for nothing but happiness in where ever you choose to fellowship, but for myself TWI is not the way.
Don't think for a minute that my life has been hollow, wounded, or devoid of spiritual experience. Quite the reverse. I've had a very fine life, raised a nice family, and had the opportunity to live in some very fine places. I have seen God move, and place his hand upon my life, I believe I am often "In the right place at the right time", to help Him help us. If my life passed away this very day, I would say I had a full satisfying life.
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satori001
My recollection is that his initials were JH, not CMH. This topic came up on a thread on GS about 7 years ago (or was it Waydale?). He was 11th Corps, but graduated 10th. By reputation and demeanor, a real cold fish, though he must have shown a more approachable side to a few people. If I ever met him I no longer recall.
We can imagine how an insecure and conflicted little cult from Ohio, burdened by compulsions of napoleonic magnitude to compensate for a little, bitty... "panacea" (for abundant living), must have reacted. As soon as they realized they couldn't blame anyone more tangible than the devil (a pretty lame excuse, since everybody else can claim same), they clammed up tighter than Vic's hat-band.
Any normal Christian ministry, faced with such a tragedy, would be praying publicly, 24/7, for the victims and their families, and probably the perp as well. If TWI's leaders prayed at all, it was that it would stay quiet, and not affect the bottom dwellers' bottom line. So much for the "household." God only knows what else has been hidden in the attic or beneath the floorboards all these years.
I invite all former insiders who've since become ex-TWI refugees to spill the beans - here and now - at Greasespot. Confession, not discretion, is good for the soul. Give it up. But start a new thread. Don't derail this one, for Pete's sake.
Then again, in light of this defining episode, have we "abandoned the household of God?" It all depends - upon how we define "household." In the present context, you might substitute for "household" the word "asylum."
Escape and abandonment are not the same things. And if TWI is or was of God, it might be the time to ask what you really know of God, beyond words on a page.
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dmiller
Here's Rosie *repenting* (notice the upraised right hand) ---
If you want to go back to twi, fine. Hope you get blessed. I really do.
But I think it unlikely. Since I got out -- they've only gone downhill.
They may have some teachings you like, but that doesn't make a ministry.
Ministries are involved in the communities. Active, helping those in need,
that sort of thing -- not just teaching bible, and promoting a class they run.
Twi doesn't do that --- they promote themselves.
FYI -- I've been *involved* with several main stream denominations, after I left twi.
It's hard for me too, to sit there and listen to a teaching on the validity of the trinity,
but teaching does not a ministry make.
The only reason I ever hung around them was because of the love and fellowship offered.
Folks had a genuine heart for people, without the *teaching*.
They actually went out into the local area, and DID stuff for folks in need.
Twi used to be like that back in the 70's, but not anymore.
So -- if you go back, prepare for heartache, and an M & A if you don't toe the line.
(but you might hear a teaching, that will grease the skids for you on your way out.)
Good luck on whatever you decide.
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FullCircle
Bumpy, I am sorry for what you went through since it involved your country and your specific area of TWI when you were involved. I don't know if you knew any of the people involved or who were killed and how well you may have known them. I am sorry for the mental anguish that horrendous episode of hearing of fellow believers being murdered and murdered by another fellow believer.
In light of this thread, this does all connect. Even though they were all in another country, the house hold God or the body of Christ, as we so often gave lip service to along with our leaders in TWI, suffered an horrific loss in the murder of fellow believers at the hand of another believer. (I was reading years ago and saw this information posted then so I know as well that Bumpy is telling the truth).
No, we did not hear about it in the US at the time. At least not us peons. No prayers offered for the families of those killed, no prayers offered for the family of the murderer and no prayers offered for those 'saints' whose 'immediate household of God' was killed off. A family of God? Fighting for one another, even here the poor guy is shot down instead of being offered sympathy and understanding. sheesh.
TWI was no household of God. It did not fight for one another. When situations and conditions didn't fit the bill prescribed by their perfect doctrine, it was all swept under the rug, hearts, souls and lives, all swept under the rug or dismissed and disgraced by one liners, "they were out of fellowship, they weren't believing god, they feared." That is not a body working together to stay healthy, to heal itself when one part hurt or suffered, but instead the doctrine of TWI acted as a hack surgeon eagerly waiting to amputate what ever part of the body that suffered instead of looking to heal it.
That is nothing to be ashamed of walking away from. You can't say, and no one can tell you that you abandoned squat when the quack doctors were ready at a moment's notice to amputate you right out of the body the moment you didn't or couldn't work to par for them.
I used to go to church. One morning we were greeted with the news that a missionary couple that belonged to our denomionation, that we never met, that WAS part of our immediate family via the denomination, were murdered in their beds one night far away from us.
The Pastor cried at the pulpit. We bowed our heads and grieved, some cried. We offered prayers for them families and loved ones and that justice would be done and their murderers would be caught. It did not affect our faith in God and it did not affect the faith we had in the church's doctrine. But then we weren't playing super christian teaching nothing bad can happen to us. We had nothing to lose in acknowledging the loss of fellow believers and we grieved together.
Now, that IS a family fighting for one another.
No you can't walk away from something that never existed outside of lip service. It was an illusion and nothing more.
Bumpy, again I am sorry. Feel free to mail me or pm anytime.
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Eyesopen
Bumpy-I am pretty certain that you didn't mean to...but really not "all" Corps were like this. At least one that I know of for certain. So for my sake if you could please put a "some" or even a "most" before a comment like that? Thanks. :D
I am sorry for the pain that you endured at the hands of our brethren, and even more so for the pain you certainly went through in Oslo. I heard a faint "grumbling" about this when in happened. But honestly all I got was that something "terrible" had happened. I am certain that my Limb Leader knew about it because as I recall there was a lot of frantic activity around him for a while. But I was not included in his inner circle.
"That is nothing to be ashamed of walking away from. You can't say, and no one can tell you that you abandoned squat when the quack doctors were ready at a moment's notice to amputate you right out of the body the moment you didn't or couldn't work to par for them."
Full Circle-That is probably the best analogy that I have ever heard to describe the M & A practices that the Way employed.
Wanderer- It sounds like you are doing more for the household being away from TWI than you did when you were with them. Bottom line is if you love God and are trying to imitate Christ than chances are that you are heading in the right direction. You did not abandon the household. Your leadership left you high and dry. But they answer for that...not you.
Foot_on_a_rock- All I can say to you is while you are on this site please take advantage of the incredible volumn of information that is available here. While you read things read them with an open mind and remember that the people that wrote them really lived it. No body here will try to blow smoke up your a$$, concerning their personal experiences with TWI. And you are getting some good advice from some really great folks on this thread. It doesn't hurt to listen...does it?
You sound like you are truly searching for the best way to serve God...so search with an open mind and a meek heart. There are some good teachings at TWI but as in all ministries/churches there are also some not so good teachings. Learn to discern them so you can make sound decisions. Above all keep the faith no matter what church you attend. :)
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Twinky
Full Circle: nice post. Says it as it should be.
Moving to the Norway murders thread now...
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