There's something about TWI stuck in my brain

[QuietThinker]

Now maybe if you can get beyond the negative part of the twi past (no matter how long you were "in") , possibly you can take some productive aspects of the spiritual Word knowledge you aquired and shape a better life for yourselves? This is the question, not to dwell in the past but to press forward...right? Are we not striving to achieve our spiritual rewards and glorify God in the process? If the best part of your future is behind you, you've lost, n'est pas?

__________________

Well, things continued with Mr. Geer visiting us in Denmark, Norway and Sweden until about 1983 when the country coordinator for Norway killed two of his Norwegian believers (do you think he was possessed or was just a bad choice ?). Well anyway, that was the end of Bumpy at The Way and pretty much the organization in Scandinavia for Mr. Geer.

Here's a clue for you...the (blonde) Way Corps girl who came to Norway the year in question was from Colorodo and her maiden initials were LP. Amazing, no one knew about this little incident? I guess damage control at hq decided it wasn't necessary for the sheep to stop grazing and hear the news. It might have had a disturbing effect on the brainwashing in progress!

Bumpy

__________________

Posted Today, 04:28 AM

Well, please first read what I wrote before you "doubt' my credibility. I said the "country coordinator" shot two of his Way fellow members, not Mr. Geer. Secondly, I don't really care what your opinion of me is, all you have to do is contact the Norweigian authorities. You should find what you're looking for during the years of '83 or '84. It was in all the Oslo papers. For sure there are people in twi who know what happened. But I'm not surprised by the reaction so far. Most of you were fast asleep!

I wonder if that incident is still stuck in Chris Geer’s ear? Also, I wonder if it was public knowledge amongst all you folks back in the USA?

___________________

Here's a clue for you...the (blonde) Way Corps girl who came to Norway the year in question was from Colorodo and her maiden initials were LP. Amazing, no one knew about this little incident? I guess damage control at hq decided it wasn't necessary for the sheep to stop grazing and hear the news. It might have had a disturbing effect on the brainwashing in progress!

Bumpy

Bumpy,

I would like to respond to some of your posts.

My first point is this: This is a message forum board and, frankly, one with a great deal of liberality when it comes to posting. As someone whom has had direct dealings with TWI by associating himself within their "household", it seems to me that you should know better than to toss out a salacious tidbit of information without any background information or independent verification. People involved with TWI were fed a diet of unsubstantiated claims and rumor. Much of what we experienced, as I imagine you, yourself, experienced, was the ignorance that came from having the information we were fed controlled by a small, invested group of people. This systematic deception has ignited, in some, a healthy desire for fact checking.

I am not saying I don't believe you. I neither believe nor disbelieve you, since in the absence of credible sources: newspaper citation, public record of charges, or other independent source of verification makes it impossible for me to evaluate your statements.

Here, for example, is an inconsistency I see in your posts. You write: "until about 1983 when the country coordinator for Norway killed two of his Norwegian believers (do you think he was possessed or was just a bad choice ?)" and then you write: "the (blonde) Way Corps girl who came to Norway the year in question was from Colorodo and her maiden initials were LP" I can see this could be interpreted in two ways: First, the girl from Colorado is one of the persons involved in this matter, and if that is so, she is not Norwegian...yet...you reference two Norwegian believers. Second, I suppose she might not have been involved and you're simply trying to show a context for your statements. Either way...an inconsistency.

(Here I'm going to interject something personal. I've been a writer for a long time, Bumpy, and my native language is English...I do my best to edit out spelling errors and grammatical mistakes, but we ALL make mistakes, and your condescending correction of LikeanEagle's word "dought" when obviously "doubt" was intended was simply rude. Considering I've now seen you make spelling and grammar errors, in more than one language, I would suggest that you quit throwing that particular stone...it demeans your argument and makes you appear as though you judge the validity of someone's words by their spelling skills...n'est ce pas? You're not the grammar police, so stop it.)

Now, on to other points. You say you're not surprised at the reaction, because most of us were asleep? In 1983 I was twelve years old and could no more smell the way international on my horizon than right now you can smell the scent of my shampoo. However, I've been trained to think critically, and people are most definitely not sleeping. Do you, I wonder, ever peruse with interest the goings on of small churches in, say, Pennsylvania? Because that's about the equivalent of what Norwegian news garners. You have been involved with twi long enough to know that information was always censored before being disseminated amongst believers and yet you seem to scoff because there was some expression of surprise to your claims. Pity, I would have thought you would have used better skills yourself and instead of tossing something clearly meant to be an inflammatory statement (and by inflammatory I mean simply that to cause or accelerate a conflagration), that you might have said something along the lines of, "Would it surprise you all to know that this happened, and here is my proof." My partner has been a journalist resident in Copenhagen for many years, and reports on events in Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Iceland. I've written at the International Press Center, too, and my observation is that the standard of proof there is very much the same here, so, you shouldn't be surprised.

You are not a professor, or an instructor--at least, I'm not in your class--so, giving clues to where to find information is rather demeaning. If you have a claim, then make it. If you have proof, in this case public record, then offer it. I don't believe you are claiming that this is personal experience, in that, you were witness to the event, are you?

I will end by saying this...the more we have learned about the organization with which we were all once involved, the more shocked and disillusioned some of us have become. It is the because of the very nature of the crimes and abuses that have been perpetrated on innocent people, Bumpy, that many of us are very careful in forming our opinions based only on a few unsubstantiated statements. If we, at grease spot, become a society which merely jumps on the twi-burning bandwagon, willing to believe anything and everything that comes down the sewer-lines of the internet, then we have simply reverted back to the habits we had cultivated whilst we were involved in the cult. The shocking and horrible truths to which I refer are based on evidence: eye-witness accounts, public record, corroborated statements. Every false or exaggerated claim diminishes the impact of every true claim. I like that sentence, so I'm going to say it again: Every false or exaggerated claim diminishes the impact of a very true claim. I was fed enough lies by the way international never to assume the diet again. If your claim, because it is murder and in all the papers as you say, has substantiation, I find it very sad that you'd rather laugh and watch people jump through hoops of your design rather than merely be forthcoming with the material.

Or is it that you don't have the proof in hand, like source citations, and are simply too busy in your own life to look it up?

Now, this is not a legal forum, and we're not following rules of law here...but, it seems to me that instead of being so superior in your attitude and lecturing on the supposition that "possibly you can take some productive aspects of the spiritual Word knowledge you aquired and shape a better life for yourselves?" , you might just try cutting the rest of us some slack. You're not qualified to comment on the quality of life of anyone here. And, I might add, we're all doing the best we can. Some of us, I should think, are of the opinion that we're doing very well, indeed.

Regards,

QT

I'm going to change my signature line, I think, to read: Show me your data and I'll show you mine--then let's talk about the hypothesis.

*edited to correct my own spelling mistakes, 'cos I ain't perfick

Edited March 7, 2007 by QuietThinker

[Bumpy]

Bumpy,

I would like to respond to some of your posts.

My first point is this: This is a message forum board and, frankly, one with a great deal of liberality when it comes to posting. As someone whom has had direct dealings with TWI by associating himself within their "household", it seems to me that you should know better than to toss out a salacious tidbit of information without any background information or independent verification. People involved with TWI were fed a diet of unsubstantiated claims and rumor. Much of what we experienced, as I imagine you, yourself, experienced, was the ignorance that came from having the information we were fed controlled by a small, invested group of people. This systematic deception has ignited, in some, a healthy desire for fact checking.

I am not saying I don't believe you. I neither believe nor disbelieve you, since in the absence of credible sources: newspaper citation, public record of charges, or other independent source of verification makes it impossible for me to evaluate your statements.

Here, for example, is an inconsistency I see in your posts. You write: "until about 1983 when the country coordinator for Norway killed two of his Norwegian believers (do you think he was possessed or was just a bad choice ?)" and then you write: "the (blonde) Way Corps girl who came to Norway the year in question was from Colorodo and her maiden initials were LP" I can see this could be interpreted in two ways: First, the girl from Colorado is one of the persons involved in this matter, and if that is so, she is not Norwegian...yet...you reference two Norwegian believers. Second, I suppose she might not have been involved and you're simply trying to show a context for your statements. Either way...an inconsistency.

(Here I'm going to interject something personal. I've been a writer for a long time, Bumpy, and my native language is English...I do my best to edit out spelling errors and grammatical mistakes, but we ALL make mistakes, and your condescending correction of LikeanEagle's word "dought" when obviously "doubt" was intended was simply rude. Considering I've now seen you make spelling and grammar errors, in more than one language, I would suggest that you quit throwing that particular stone...it demeans your argument and makes you appear as though you judge the validity of someone's words by their spelling skills...n'est ce pas? You're not the grammar police, so stop it.)

Now, on to other points. You say you're not surprised at the reaction, because most of us were asleep? In 1983 I was twelve years old and could no more smell the way international on my horizon than right now you can smell the scent of my shampoo. However, I've been trained to think critically, and people are most definitely not sleeping. Do you, I wonder, ever peruse with interest the goings on of small churches in, say, Pennsylvania? Because that's about the equivalent of what Norwegian news garners. You have been involved with twi long enough to know that information was always censored before being disseminated amongst believers and yet you seem to scoff because there was some expression of surprise to your claims. Pity, I would have thought you would have used better skills yourself and instead of tossing something clearly meant to be an inflammatory statement (and by inflammatory I mean simply that to cause or accelerate a conflagration), that you might have said something along the lines of, "Would it surprise you all to know that this happened, and here is my proof." My partner has been a journalist resident in Copenhagen for many years, and reports on events in Sweden, Norway, Finland, Denmark and Iceland. I've written at the International Press Center, too, and my observation is that the standard of proof there is very much the same here, so, you shouldn't be surprised.

You are not a professor, or an instructor--at least, I'm not in your class--so, giving clues to where to find information is rather demeaning. If you have a claim, then make it. If you have proof, in this case public record, then offer it. I don't believe you are claiming that this is personal experience, in that, you were witness to the event, are you?

I will end by saying this...the more we have learned about the organization with which we were all once involved, the more shocked and disillusioned some of us have become. It is the because of the very nature of the crimes and abuses that have been perpetrated on innocent people, Bumpy, that many of us are very careful in forming our opinions based only on a few unsubstantiated statements. If we, at grease spot, become a society which merely jumps on the twi-burning bandwagon, willing to believe anything and everything that comes down the sewer-lines of the internet, then we have simply reverted back to the habits we had cultivated whilst we were involved in the cult. The shocking and horrible truths to which I refer are based on evidence: eye-witness accounts, public record, corroborated statements. Every false or exaggerated claim diminishes the impact of every true claim. I like that sentence, so I'm going to say it again: Every false or exaggerated claim diminishes the impact of a very true claim. I was fed enough lies by the way international never to assume the diet again. If your claim, because it is murder and in all the papers as you say, has substantiation, I find it very sad that you'd rather laugh and watch people jump through hoops of your design rather than merely be forthcoming with the material.

Or is it that you don't have the proof in hand, like source citations, and are simply too busy in your own life to look it up?

Now, this is not a legal forum, and we're not following rules of law here...but, it seems to me that instead of being so superior in your attitude and lecturing on the supposition that "possibly you can take some productive aspects of the spiritual Word knowledge you aquired and shape a better life for yourselves?" , you might just try cutting the rest of us some slack. You're not qualified to comment on the quality of life of anyone here. And, I might add, we're all doing the best we can. Some of us, I should think, are of the opinion that we're doing very well, indeed.

Regards,

QT

I'm going to change my signature line, I think, to read: Show me your data and I'll show you mine--then let's talk about the hypothesis.

*edited to correct my own spelling mistakes, 'cos I ain't perfick

QT, Buenos Dias! You’re up early, I hope you had breakfast before writing your rather elaborate response. I will try and use spell check before posting in the future if that makes you feel better?

Anyway, regardless of how qualified you are as a writer, or as a thinker, or how old you are, or what shampoo you use, or whether I give you an “attitude” problem vis a vis my postings, let’s hope we can keep the bond of peace in Christ between us...ok? So relax, I’m sure in your intellectual life you even have more important things to do than read and respond to gs postings so early in the morning, especially mine. At least I hope so!

The messenger, that being myself, is not trying to create any misleading games here, because murder is never a game, except maybe if you’re in Iraq at the moment. But if events like this happened and people in the organization at the time were unaware, what are you to deduce? There is a lot of regret I read on gs, and really my heart and my postings are for the most part in empathy and exhortation. I may at times put a little “spin” on certain subjects which some may not like, but that is because I find many people are taking their past problems and themselves too seriously!

But back to the subject...Because you’re such a smart guy, why don’t you challenge yourself and do some research on what I said happened. I am sure with all your credibility at gs, that if you find what I’m saying to be true, others will not “doubt”. After all, you have your correspondence friends already in Scandinavia, n’est ce pas?

Impress me, I will look forward to seeing another brilliant, analytical posting. Bump

[QuietThinker]

But back to the subject...Because you’re such a smart guy, why don’t you challenge yourself and do some research on what I said happened. I am sure with all your credibility at gs, that if you find what I’m saying to be true, others will not “doubt”. After all, you have your correspondence friends already in Scandinavia, n’est ce pas?

Impress me, I will look forward to seeing another brilliant, analytical posting. Bump

I'm a woman, Bumpy, not that it makes any difference as to my intelligence. And it's not my job to do your research for you. You began the subject. You made the statement. It is, therefore, incumbent upon you to provide the evidence. However, it may interest you to know that two journalists working for Aftenposten have no idea of these events and can find nothing upon cursory examination.

That's not to say there isn't evidence. Just that these particular Norwegian journalists haven't come across any.

And, while your opinions are yours and you're free to express them in any manner, I would suggest to you that your condescension has nothing to do with Christ and what you state as fact isn't. It's just your opinion. Others may differ, in fact they often do.

...and, again, I'll suggest to you that I'm Mistress of My Own Time. I'll spend it as I see fit...as I'm sure you do as well.

Regards,

QT

*edited for spelling

Edited March 7, 2007 by QuietThinker

[WordWolf]

Anyway, regardless of how qualified you are as a writer, or as a thinker, or how old you are, or what shampoo you use, or whether I give you an “attitude” problem vis a vis my postings, let’s hope we can keep the bond of peace in Christ between us...ok?

["You were slow-witted and ill-informed. Oh, that notwithstanding, I hope we can keep

the bond of peace in Christ between us."

Bumpy, show me your faith without your works all you want.

I'll show you my faith BY my works. (James 2:18.)

If you're going to throw insults around-let me know if you need a list of the ones already in

this thread-don't expect that to have no effect on "the bond of peace in Christ" with those

you insulted. That's like slapping someone's face and expecting them to just forget it.]

So relax, I’m sure in your intellectual life you even have more important things to do than read and respond to gs postings so early in the morning, especially mine. At least I hope so!

[i'm sure she does. And the triangle had three sides. Relevance?]

The messenger, that being myself, is not trying to create any misleading games here, because murder is never a game, except maybe if you’re in Iraq at the moment. But if events like this happened and people in the organization at the time were unaware, what are you to deduce? There is a lot of regret I read on gs, and really my heart and my postings are for the most part in empathy and exhortation. I may at times put a little “spin” on certain subjects which some may not like, but that is because I find many people are taking their past problems and themselves too seriously!

[And the square had four sides. Relevance?]

But back to the subject...Because you’re such a smart guy, why don’t you challenge yourself and do some research on what I said happened. I am sure with all your credibility at gs, that if you find what I’m saying to be true, others will not “doubt”. After all, you have your correspondence friends already in Scandinavia, n’est ce pas?

Impress me, I will look forward to seeing another brilliant, analytical posting. Bump

[As I've told one other poster, you are not our teacher, we are not your students,

this is not your classroom, and you are not qualified to assign us homework.

You are one poster, one voice, in a public forum. You may consider this a marketplace,

like the Agora. Each of us has a voice. Each of us speaks.

You speak.

You made a rather outrageous claim. It may be true, it may not be true.

Rather than SUPPORT your claim, you said "Oh, I made an outrageous claim that

is definitely true. The burden of proof is on you to prove it didn't happen."

Excuse you- YOU made the outrageous claim-

it is for YOU to SUPPORT it.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

If you expect to be given respect as an equal here, then you need to follow the

common rules of messageboards, which are hardly unique to the GSC.

If you make a claim-and you made one here-

you must SUPPORT your claim, not pretend it's not your job to support it.

If you don't want to support a claim, DON'T MAKE THE CLAIM.

There's plenty of things I don't post because I don't feel like supporting them.

So what I DO post, I can-and do-support.

So, Bumpy, unless you're lacking in common internet manners,

AND an arrogant prig, you have 2 choices.

You can support your claim,

or you can apologize and withdraw your claim.

Alternately, you can legitimize the position that you're an arrogant prig who just

makes up claims out of thin air and expects people to just believe them,

and use any of a number of responses

("I refuse to support my claim", "Your mother!" "Anyone who expects me to

support my claim is a fool", "I know what I believe *storms off*"

"*stops posting for a month, then resumes, hoping everyone's forgotten*").

You're free to do that- but it WILL send a message, and probably NOT the one

you MEANT to post.]

Edited March 7, 2007 by WordWolf

[Bumpy]

["You were slow-witted and ill-informed. Oh, that notwithstanding, I hope we can keep

the bond of peace in Christ between us."

Bumpy, show me your faith without your works all you want.

I'll show you my faith BY my works. (James 2:18.)

If you're going to throw insults around-let me know if you need a list of the ones already in

this thread-don't expect that to have no effect on "the bond of peace in Christ" with those

you insulted. That's like slapping someone's face and expecting them to just forget it.]

[i'm sure she does. And the triangle had three sides. Relevance?]

[And the square had four sides. Relevance?]

[As I've told one other poster, you are not our teacher, we are not your students,

this is not your classroom, and you are not qualified to assign us homework.

You are one poster, one voice, in a public forum. You may consider this a marketplace,

like the Agora. Each of us has a voice. Each of us speaks.

You speak.

You made a rather outrageous claim. It may be true, it may not be true.

Rather than SUPPORT your claim, you said "Oh, I made an outrageous claim that

is definitely true. The burden of proof is on you to prove it didn't happen."

Excuse you- YOU made the outrageous claim-

it is for YOU to SUPPORT it.

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof."

If you expect to be given respect as an equal here, then you need to follow the

common rules of messageboards, which are hardly unique to the GSC.

If you make a claim-and you made one here-

you must SUPPORT your claim, not pretend it's not your job to support it.

If you don't want to support a claim, DON'T MAKE THE CLAIM.

There's plenty of things I don't post because I don't feel like supporting them.

So what I DO post, I can-and do-support.

So, Bumpy, unless you're lacking in common internet manners,

AND an arrogant prig, you have 2 choices.

You can support your claim,

or you can apologize and withdraw your claim.

Alternately, you can legitimize the position that you're an arrogant prig who just

makes up claims out of thin air and expects people to just believe them,

and use any of a number of responses

("I refuse to support my claim", "Your mother!" "Anyone who expects me to

support my claim is a fool", "I know what I believe *storms off*"

"*stops posting for a month, then resumes, hoping everyone's forgotten*").

You're free to do that- but it WILL send a message, and probably NOT the one

you MEANT to post.]

Mr. WeirWolf,

I am not sure, but you may be in need of medication, such a harsh response! And so mean, I don’t know what to say? It seems like something that happened over 20 years ago (or may not have happened, depending on future proof of course), has attracted such immediate and emotional attention!

Now if I have to supply the burden of proof to console you and possibly others, when there are so many former twi people out there, it might give you the impression of me having to play the role of “professor”! And I really don’t want you to be subjected to such a demeaning position.

So, I will give you another “hint” to help you solve the mystery of “Murder in Norway”. Think of it as an Agetha Christie novel!

The murderer’s initials were CMH and he was often at HQ.

[QuietThinker]

Mr. WeirWolf,

I am not sure, but you may be in need of medication, such a harsh response! And so mean, I don’t know what to say? It seems like something that happened over 20 years ago (or may not have happened, depending on future proof of course), has attracted such immediate and emotional attention!

Now if I have to supply the burden of proof to console you and possibly others, when there are so many former twi people out there, it might give you the impression of me having to play the role of “professor”! And I really don’t want you to be subjected to such a demeaning position.

So, I will give you another “hint” to help you solve the mystery of “Murder in Norway”. Think of it as an Agetha Christie novel!

The murderer’s initials were CMH and he was often at HQ.

Well, aside from your descent into condescension and patronization, you have resorted to personal name calling and practicing medicine without a license.

As many a host can affirm, you can try to host a party to which no one will come.

Evade, deride, obfuscate and stab as it pleases you, Bumpy. That does not however mask the truth which is merely this...you've made an accusation and offered no proof. You've avoided answering questions and opted for attacking the person.

Ah, well...as the old saying goes...some people just open their mouths and remove all doubt.

~QT

[What The Hey]

Every false or exaggerated claim diminishes the impact of a very true claim.

That all depends on who you are addressing and exactly what one considers the truth to be. Of course, your addressing people of my generation. Most people in my generation consider their point of view as being the truth. But none the less, it merely their point of view and nothing more. While every false and exaggerated claim certainly impacts ones own point of view, it really has no bearing or sway on the truth.

Benjamin Franklin said, "Popular opposition to a public measure is no proof of its impropriety, even though the opposition be excited and headed by men of distinction". He also said, "... For there is no accusation so readily believed by knaves, as is the accusation of knavery."

The problem you are facing is when you address me and others today, you are also from my generation. My generation was raised on a phylosopy of education known as experimentation. Expermentation postulates there are no absolute truths - there are no absolute values. All of life is just a "sea of relationships" and your individuality is no more real than a wave in the sea. You come and you go, and that is your total existance. And like a wave in the sea, the most important thing is pepetuating yourself. And truth, since it is not an absolute, is redefined as what serves you.

It is a tragedy we have left such leadership as a pragmatic generation, that now only lets the end justify the means - and now only provides the candidates for rulership who treat the truth as an enemy and something to be changed - to make their modern desires more convenient. Martin Luther said, "You are not free, you just think you're free." You are free to choose your master, but you are not free. That is the illusion this world peddles - that you are free.

Today we have to kid ourselves into thinking we are free. Like the philosopher who said, "I think, therefore I am" we put a hedonistic twist on that - "I think I am free, therefore I should be free." I believe we have a measure of freedom. Every act of men has a measure of freedom injected. We're not biologically controlled - affected yes. There is an ebb and flow in our physical life, but we are not animals controlled by predetermined cycles. We can change anything with a little injection of freedom. You're not free, you just think you are, and there is no capacity for love or trust without freedom. But this generation doesn't know the difference - between loving to be loved, and loving.

Even love has become nothing more but an ambiguous word in my generation. Well, if you had an ambiguous word - you are going to go, if there are options, you're going to go with that which is the "party line." The context forces you to choose the latter. If you are already sealed on your opinion and your point of view, then you're certainly not one who is going to be prone to 'stick your neck out'. The early ones though, they were just seeking the truth.

Edited March 7, 2007 by What The Hey

[Bumpy]

Well, aside from your descent into condescension and patronization, you have resorted to personal name calling and practicing medicine without a license.

As many a host can affirm, you can try to host a party to which no one will come.

Evade, deride, obfuscate and stab as it pleases you, Bumpy. That does not however mask the truth which is merely this...you've made an accusation and offered no proof. You've avoided answering questions and opted for attacking the person.

Ah, well...as the old saying goes...some people just open their mouths and remove all doubt.

~QT

Sorry Missy, but the stage has been set and the doors have been closed! So don’t wet your pants and make such a fuss! There will be someone out there who will come forward with information relating to a case that happened a long time ago in Oslo to people I knew.

Also, QT, might I suggest you change your handle? You really are NOT very “quiet” are you?

[QuietThinker]

That all depends on who you are addressing and exactly what one considers the truth to be. (snip for saving of space)

Today we have to kid ourselves into thinking we are free. Like the philosopher who said, "I think, therefore I am" we put a hedonistic twist on that - "I think I am free, therefore I should be free." I believe we have a measure of freedom. Every act of men has a measure of freedom injected. We're not biologically controlled - affected yes. There is an ebb and flow in our physical life, but we are not animals controlled by predetermined cycles. We can change anything with a little injection of freedom. You're not free, you just think you are, and there is no capacity for love or trust without freedom. But this generation doesn't know the difference - between loving to be loved, and loving.

Even love has become nothing more but an ambiguous word in my generation. Well, if you had an ambiguous word - you are going to go, if there are options, you're going to go with that which is the "party line." The context forces you to choose the latter. If you are already sealed on your opinion and your point of view, then you're certainly not one who is going to be prone to 'stick your neck out'. The early ones though, they were just seeking the truth.

Hey Tater (What_the_hey -- Sorry, I tend to think of you as Darth Tater, and wouldn't want to confuse anyone),

I read all of your post with great interest...and I think it is a return back to the original thrust of the thread? As long as you understand that I'm not speaking philosophically...but rather of events that happened to people, some of a criminal nature.

And, it was rene des cartes who is credited with "I think, therefore I am." Which reminds me of a really bad philosophy joke, which I will go post on the appropriate thread.

Thanks for your posting, Tater (What_the_hey)

~QT

*edited for appropriate name usage

Edited March 7, 2007 by QuietThinker

[likeaneagle]

Bumpy--

You wont even relinquish to the fact, that you laid the ground work by making a very strong statement that effected many people years gone by and now!!BTW, my first exit was in 83 and went back in 90..

Your arrogance needs to be noted....

Your a fly by night, show and tell kind of guy..

so go forth, enjoy your lavish drinks, eat exotic foods and herbs of your region, and enjoy your fruit:)

I have had enough of this kind of trash!

[Lori]

Can we get back to the original thought in this thread, please?

[likeaneagle]

sorry Lori..

[Lori]

It wasn't directed at you, LikeanAngel. I just think it's rude when people derail a thread. You didn't do that.

[QuietThinker]

I apologise, Lori, for my part.

QT

It's been a long time. I was in in 1979 and out, by '83. There were no serious incidents, yet my time there occasionally pops up...little beliefs linger. I think the real problem with me is that there were a lot of half truths. Things that they taught that work, followed by a whopper that was outrageously pure BS. That shouldn't outweigh the truth, but it warps it in some strange way. Sorry, I'm never "Blessed", but I'm often thankful of the hand of God in my life. I don't think I get revelation, however I see divine inspiration often in my life. It's not a simply terminology thing...what happens to me seems almost natural, not forced as in the TWI days, yet there is a nagging doubt. "Did I abandon God and his household?" The fruit in my life would indicate otherwise, yet the doubt remains.

These days I'm accepting of almost anyone, and many are lost. I do my best to connect with the confounded and place them on a suitable path, one that seems to point to their indended destination. Kind of a very gentle undersheparding...without the pretense, without the greencard, no judgement. There are times when I don't even understand my oun path, yet I trudge on, over the next hill, grateful for the next sunrise.

Wanderer,

I find myself doubting many things, and even the comfort of lab-work doesn't always reassure me in the way it sometimes has in the past. You recognize "the fruit" in your life and still you question. It seems to me that it takes time to root out certain patterns of thought, even when you see contradictory evidence in your life, and it's not easy.

What_the_hey makes some interesting points in terms of the free and flexible nature of thought and accountability, and has a questioning mind. All I can say is that at least when you're questioning you're thinking, and thinking implies engagement.

Although we come at this question from different perspectives, I can agree that there are yet more hills to climb, and the sunrises that come with the hope of better understanding are worth the walk.

Cheers,

QT

(and sorry for getting into the derail of your very fine thread)

*editing for slip-shod typing

Edited March 7, 2007 by QuietThinker

[Lori]

QT, I wasn't directing anything at you. You didn't start it. Even though I thought you made some excellent points.

[ex10]

I admit to just now skimming through this thread. For what it's worth, Bumpy is telling the truth about the Oslo murders. I found about it after I had left the Way in 1989ish. It was quite shocking news to me, because I knew the murderer in-rez, better than I knew most people. We "dated" briefly. In fact, I had even introduced him to my parents.

But when I googled his name, I didn't find anything about the incident. I just remember what I was told happened, way back when. So very sad........

[socks]

How did we get to Norway?

There's no reason why Way grads in the U.S. would have heard of such an incident, unless it was reported in the news media, and loudly. Certainly The Way wouldn't have broadcast it to people, their M.O. is to stifle "bad news" and that would have certainly been bad enough to keep quiet about. I'd have to assume that in the wake of such an event there would have been a great deal of confusion and hurt, shock.

Still - there were people who knew apparently, like you Bumpy and nothing was communicated here about it, no avenue to communicate or reason to do so, it would seem. So it remained unknown to anyone who didn't have an inside track. Sounds like business as usual at the Way, to me.

On the other hand the circumstances - those are unknown so far to me. How do people get from reading the bible to shooting each other? What actually was going on? Why did the violence occur.

I guess this does go to the topic in a way.

[Bumpy]

Dear Socks and Ex10,

It’s a long story and now after so many years it came back to me for some reason when thinking about things that bothered me while a part of the Way. These were friends of mine, as I used to be in Oslo a lot during the early 1980”s. My best friend there was a guy named Arnie Strand, and he and I were always isolated, blackballed whatever you call it because we never fit into the mold or followed orders very well, that’s for sure! I think I said that before about me not joining a club that would have me as a member?

Anyway CMH, the country “coordinator” had apparently some serious issues in his personal life, and one day together with two really nice “leaf” followers, he flipped! At the time, I think he was under a lot of pressure from Chris and HQ to show “results”. When LP arrived from Corp 9?, and landed in Oslo, I think that was another pressure he couldn’t deal with. There were other “issues” I am sure as well, but you have to contact LP for that.

As you know, “Corps” always thought they knew best! And anyone like me who was not WAY CORPS, was nothing. So you had to be very careful what you said! Sort of like me getting whacked here at gs by the same ex-corps people, who have that “pull a verse / prove a point” mentality. Man I hate that! But that’s another subject I will deal with in a future posting!

Why it didn’t reach HQ had to do with the fact that no one reads the Norwegian press, and cults in those days were just starting to get noticed. Also, obviously Mr. Geer had no intention of letting everyone know he “had a problem” which would have reflected on his ambitions to succeed VP. Additionally, the Way of Norway was setup as a separate legal entity, Den Veien, I think was the translation?

So there you have a bit of my past. There were some really nice people from Norway who I fellowshipped with there, and some memories of my youth sailing the Oslo fjiords. As EX10 said, it was very sad what happened. I just figured it wasn’t my business to contact any one in the USA and tell them what happened. Probably because I had been whacked by too many attitude corps people and didn’t keep them as friends.

But there were and are twi people in Corps and HQ, who were YOUR friends and knew the situation. THEY kept their mouths shut. “Shame on them”!

Bump

[excathedra]

tragic

At the time, I think he was under a lot of pressure from Chris

big spit goes here

[Foot_on_a_rock]

It's been a long time. I was in in 1979 and out, by '83. There were no serious incidents, yet my time there occasionally pops up...little beliefs linger. I think the real problem with me is that there were a lot of half truths. Things that they taught that work, followed by a whopper that was outrageously pure BS. That shouldn't outweigh the truth, but it warps it in some strange way. Sorry, I'm never "Blessed", but I'm often thankful of the hand of God in my life. I don't think I get revelation, however I see divine inspiration often in my life. It's not a simply terminology thing...what happens to me seems almost natural, not forced as in the TWI days, yet there is a nagging doubt. "Did I abandon God and his household?" The fruit in my life would indicate otherwise, yet the doubt remains.

These days I'm accepting of almost anyone, and many are lost. I do my best to connect with the confounded and place them on a suitable path, one that seems to point to their indended destination. Kind of a very gentle undersheparding...without the pretense, without the greencard, no judgement. There are times when I don't even understand my oun path, yet I trudge on, over the next hill, grateful for the next sunrise.

Hi Wanderer,

I joined this cafe specifically to address you and your intitial thread.

I am thinking about returning to the Way. I am thankful to God for them, because they taught me how to understand the bible and read it for myself.

I have brought others to the ministry. I have no idea if they are still "standing" with them. And I know how you feel when you said "I do my best to connect with the confounded and place them on a suitable path, one that seems to point to their indended destination." If people are hungering for the Word, then I believe that there is no better place for them than in the household of believers.

I've gone to alot of churches, disgusted by their erroneous teachings, and have come to the conclusion that theirs no place like the Way.

I know that you did not abandon the household. In many instances they abandoned us. But we also need to remeber that somewhere inside that organization is the pure truth. I've felt it, I know it (because they taught me that I can know that I know). There is beauty, and love and compassion there.

I asked God to reveal to me when I should return. He has led my path here for some reason, and I know that He has led yours as well. If there is a burning inclination in your heart to return, then don't let pride or anger or hurt stop you. These are the adversary's tricks. And he (the adversary) is the one that keeps our hearts full of pain.

I'm sure your on the path that God has chosen for you.

[pond]

Well then

I remeber feeling ike i wanted to go back and i did ten years after i had left, I am glad i did , that is when i learned how to close the door on how i had been trained to think.

good luck to ya post your experience good or bad i am really interested in your destiny.

[Bramble]

I am thinking about returning to the Way. I am thankful to God for them, because they taught me how to understand the bible and read it for myself.

I have brought others to the ministry. I have no idea if they are still "standing" with them. And I know how you feel when you said "I do my best to connect with the confounded and place them on a suitable path, one that seems to point to their indended destination." If people are hungering for the Word, then I believe that there is no better place for them than in the household of believers.

I've gone to alot of churches, disgusted by their erroneous teachings, and have come to the conclusion that theirs no place like the Way.

I know that you did not abandon the household. In many instances they abandoned us. But we also need to remeber that somewhere inside that organization is the pure truth. I've felt it, I know it (because they taught me that I can know that I know). There is beauty, and love and compassion there.

I asked God to reveal to me when I should return. He has led my path here for some reason, and I know that He has led yours as well. If there is a burning inclination in your heart to return, then don't let pride or anger or hurt stop you. These are the adversary's tricks. And he (the adversary) is the one that keeps our hearts full of pain.

I'm sure your on the path that God has chosen for you.

Good luck with that move back into TWI. Be aware that truth in TWI is what ever they tell you it is. Your opinion or knowledge of the Word will mean nothing. You will be the lowest of the low, under scrutiny. Remember, many things taught in VPW/PFAL days are now 'old wine skins.'

But, suck it up, say yes, sir, obey obey obey your leadership and you'll do fine.

[Foot_on_a_rock]

Good luck with that move back into TWI. Be aware that truth in TWI is what ever they tell you it is. Your opinion or knowledge of the Word will mean nothing. You will be the lowest of the low, under scrutiny. Remember, many things taught in VPW/PFAL days are now 'old wine skins.'

But, suck it up, say yes, sir, obey obey obey your leadership and you'll do fine.

Bramble,

Lowest of the Low???, Under scrutiny??? where does that come from??? I was taught more than PFAL. I had other classes as well, so i know that pfal is old wine skins.

Your whole "suck it up, say yes, sir, obey obey obey your leadership and you'll do fine." is kinda odd.

God's been still giving me insight to direct my steps so I think I've got it covered.

[Bramble]

Bramble,

Lowest of the Low???, Under scrutiny??? where does that come from??? I was taught more than PFAL. I had other classes as well, so i know that pfal is old wine skins.

Your whole "suck it up, say yes, sir, obey obey obey your leadership and you'll do fine." is kinda odd.

God's been still giving me insight to direct my steps so I think I've got it covered.

The leadership in power now in TWI supported LCM. They managed to keep their leadership positions during his reign of insane legalism. They followed the company line. They cleaned out the Household and marked and avoided with the best of them. They have offered no apologies to anyone who's marriage they busted up, or families they hurt, friendships they ended, people they slandered publicly.

Yup, glad you've got it covered.

[Foot_on_a_rock]

The leadership in power now in TWI supported LCM. They managed to keep their leadership positions during his reign of insane legalism. They followed the company line. They cleaned out the Household and marked and avoided with the best of them. They have offered no apologies to anyone who's marriage they busted up, or families they hurt, friendships they ended, people they slandered publicly.

Yup, glad you've got it covered.

Bramble,

I understand what you're saying. Since they do not control my walk with God, Thier influence will be checked and balanced in my life from now on.

Their actions are between themselves and God.

I hope that they do repent. I hope that they do see the errors of their way. And I hope that they ask for forgiveness to those that they have done wrong to.

For all I know, you may be one of those in leadership that has hurt me. I would forgive you just as the Lord instructed me to.