You are saying there is and are choices in this particular will-choosing deal, correct.
There are some instances where there was not too many choices to choose.
Paul for example, did not choose to have himself knocked to the ground and blinded.
What do you think a person in Paul's situation today would have to face from those that were with him. Would they not send him to the hospital or sanitarium?
Maybe you’re confused about the Christian’s decision-making process based on God’s moral will. The alternative view as stated by Friesen and Maxson is that the Bible indicates nothing of an “individual will” governing each decision we make. In all decisions, Christians should honor God’s moral will [the commands and directives of the Bible] on matters touched by His moral code. As an oversimplified example consider the question, “what should I do for work?” Once a Christian checks options against God’s moral will [is the work honest and legal for instance] – then the other considerations would follow the person’s personal preferences, salary they’re looking for, etc. I think there’s enough scriptural references to indicate this is a biblical decision-making process for the Christian – and it’s based on God’s moral will – something already revealed in the Bible.
Your saying Paul did not choose to get knocked off his horse or blinded is correct – this is an example of God’s sovereign will, how He specifically plans to work certain things out, that is known only to God. The only choice on our part – is how we choose to respond to His sovereign will as it unfolds.
Yes – I am saying within the framework of God’s moral will [the commands and directives given in the Bible] – the Christian has choices. And should do so, responsibly – with wisdom and humble prayer. As you said “be careful what you wish for.”
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Quite a few wills in play here, besides the one that knocked Paul blind.
One would need to be sensitive to the spirit of the Word to get it's will.
And although we can look up chapter and verse, these are sometimes subject to interpretation.
Which also would lead to the spirit showing what it says to do at that time.
To do one thing the same way is not right every time the same situation happens.
If it's God's will, wether moral or sovereign, one must take in to account that which he hears.
That which he hears not only from the scripture being read or remembered, but also from others speaking by the spirit.
Now mind this, I'm not saying that anyone would be telling one what to do.
But that which is heard and received interprets by the spirit and then a clearer picture.
So on simple things like honesty and the like, basically no problem.
But we are faced with much more then this at times.
A willingness to leave one's own will and let it merge with the spirit's will, is no small task.
Especially if it goes against what one has believed and held to as truth.
When the will of God is in your face, plain as day, a real decision can be made.
Or not, because it will keep coming back around again.
But I believe it's small steps, though they seem giant at the time.
Okay – then maybe I’m getting confused by the way you’re complicating this issue. You’re right – the Bible is subject to interpretation – and this topic is a case in point.
I view the Bible as God’s moral will – His revealed will – that which He expects me as a Christian to follow. I see no reason to believe any verse holds specific guidance for what I should do if the particular situation does not involve any moral aspects of the Bible. Neither do I expect God to reveal His sovereign will – His hidden will – His specific plan for getting something done. Such as a specific directive – specific guidance to do something - as He did with Ananias in Acts 9, giving him directions to where Paul was, what Paul was doing, to lay hands on him and restore his sight…Does God still do things like that – yes! But that is His prerogative.
As I said in post # 26 referring to Psalms, Matthew 6:13, Romans 8:5-14 and Galatians 5:16-26 it appears that the guidance provided for the Christian is one of an intellectual/moral influence.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your viewpoint. I’m saying if a situation does not involve any moral aspects of the Bible then what’s the problem with me as a Christian using a thoughtful decision-making process to figure out what to do?
Gotcha. Like I was saying in post # 21 – thread discussions can be challenging – hopefully everyone has the patience to stick it out so that eventually we all have a good idea of what each other is saying. Sometimes I can get stuck in my perspective - going back and forth like this works good for me…guess it helps me get unstuck .
…continuing to think out loud from my post # 26…I'm not satisfied with the terminology I used to differentiate between the two types of guidance – but that's the best I can do right now. I've thought about adding objective and subjective for the purpose of specifying their source.
Objective would apply to literal guidance – specific directives. It is God directly communicating to someone. Referring to the gospel that he preached, Paul said he didn't get it from man but received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ [Galatians 1:11, 12]. In his days as a persecutor, Paul certainly knew about Jesus – but then he personally met Him one day on the road to Damascus [Acts 9:1-16]. The source of this revelation was something external from Paul's mind. Paul's experience on the Damascus road was real, physical and even publicly verifiable – though the experience of Paul's traveling companions was not exactly the same as his [Acts 9:7 "The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one."]. In The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology by Arthur Reber & Emily Reber objective is characterizing a thing the nature of which is determinable through the use of physical measurement; uncontaminated by the emotional aspects of personal assessment; external to the body or mind; sensed or experienced as externally localized.
Subjective would apply to figurative guidance – intellectual/moral influence. God is communicating indirectly to a person. Jesus said if anyone is willing to do God's will, he will know whether or not Jesus' teaching is from God [John 7:17]. Akin to this is a reference by John of the Holy Spirit guiding believers into the truth . The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology says of subjective: loosely, characteristic of or dependent on an individual…that which is subjective is internal, personal, not available for public scrutiny…the fundamental nature of the event can only be experienced internally, privately…unreliable, biased, contaminated by personal, emotional evaluations.
As a Christian, thinking about the two types of guidance - objective/literal or subjective/figurative -I can only speak from experience about the latter and think Psychology's definition of subjective accurately describes my experience of being "led" by the Spirit. Things are not always cut and dry…there's times of wondering if a certain idea was mine or the Spirit's…a lot of times actually…and boy – thinking about my TWI years – how much I let their mindset and screwy interpretations of verses set a bias in my head. So I'm saying it's not a very reliable form of guidance - not only because it lacks substantial impact but also because my sinful/imperfect head can get in the way and really cloud the issues.
So, I believe that God's Spirit is in me – and that He works in me – mysteriously somehow – subtly – within my mind – within the way I personally process data coming in – perhaps at a subconscious level. I think our Creator does more to honor His creation by encouraging us to USE our minds to the max – which includes ferreting out all the whys and wherefores, options, relevant details, ramifications of decisions. His Spirit is present as a guide on our spiritual journey – inspiring us to imitate Christ, reminding us of our fallen nature, making a passage come alive and zing us in the heart or simply help us abstract a principle out of Scripture and see where it's applicable in our situation.
Again – just thinking aloud here – speculating about something not clearly articulated in Scripture – the Spirit's intellectual/moral guidance. In thinking about the radical shift in many of my beliefs since I left TWI – I wonder about what God has in mind with this internal, intellectual/moral guidance, this "being led by the Spirit" thing. I don't think it's meant to be an overt guidance system…some overpowering sensation that intrudes…He is not one to violate our person-hood.
I even went through a spell of disappointment with God after leaving TWI – wishing He would have been a little more obvious in helping me out of that mess…Oh I don't know – perhaps the disembodied voice of Charlton Heston screaming at me through a megaphone "Get out of there you big dummy!!!!" – and maybe throw in a burning PFAL book – and the book is totally consumed by the fire but all my furniture is unscathed – not even the smell of smoke upon it!
...I often recognize His influence in circumstances that call upon my faith, my nobler side – where in one instance it may be summoning the courage and strength to do the right thing or another time it's feeling compelled to hang out with a friend and just listen, love and let them unload.
Hmmmm...not sure why you attached the terms subjective and objective to the two types of guidance. Especially where what you call objective guidance refers to the spiritual, which cannot be independently verified and is therefore subjective.
My concern on this topic has been an attempt to define Christianity’s concept of guidance from God. Which I think falls into two categories – and for want of better terms will just say for right now are: literal/specific directives and figurative/intellectual moral influence. And in my opinion the latter is typical for the Christian.
Oak’s post has helped me clarify a thought. When I speak of a literal guidance from God with specific directives – I am not including how the Bible was written. That is a book addressing many spiritual matters - these cannot be independently verified, measured, etc. – and as such are subjective in nature. In regards to the historical aspects of the Bible – that is something concrete – references to people, places, events and things that can be cross-referenced by other artifacts, books, independent sources, etc. – these are items of physical substance and can be analyzed…
What I am saying is that any literal guidance noted in the Bible could be verified – in terms of accuracy, measured, effects, etc. – and so would be objective. Ananias followed the specific directives of the Lord – he went to the specific street/house he was told about and found Paul.
I've been thinking about two passages in Proverbs that IMHO stress a critical point in a Christian's decision-making process.
Proverbs 16:9 NIV
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Commenting on Proverbs 16:9, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank Gaebelein General Editor, Volume 5, page 1005:
"The Lord sovereignly determines the outworking of our plans. The Bible in general teaches that only those plans that are approved by him will succeed…The point is the contrast between what we actually plan and what actually happens – God determines that. As Paul later said, God is able to do abundantly more than we ask or think [Ephesians 3:20]."
A similar idea is expressed in Proverbs 19:
Proverbs 19:21 NIV
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
Page 1036 of the The Expositor's Bible Commentary says:
"The success of our plans depends on the will of God. In the form of a contrast, the proverb teaches that only those plans that God approves will succeed…"
What I infer from the above passages is that WE are responsible for making plans. As Christians, we may sincerely want or even claim God's direct guidance in formulating our plans – but the basic idea I see in these verses is that plans originate from man's heart. And perhaps the sentiment in Proverbs is a wise decision-maker develops plans with a humble heart, acknowledging the sovereignty of God.
I call it ''considerate'' when I check with HIM first. I don't always remember this.........but when I do, things do seem a lot clearer and smoother. No more 'believing' to get what I want. I just make sure it's something that He would approve of and gives glory to Him.
I just hate it when I am left to ''MY OWN" devices cuz I usually fall into the ditch.
At this stage in my journey, I view my place as one of cooperation with God. As already noted, this is an acknowledgement of God's rule, and a willingness on my part to do His will. He knows best, and He can see down the road. God is "at work" within His children, both to will and to do... so even the decision-making process is one in which we are engaged with God, seeking to please Him, to be obedient to His guidance and rule... whether it be to the principles/law He has revealed, or to His personal guidance. I do not think it is possible to do the former without having that personal, active "connection."
What a thought provoking thread, thanks for starting it T-Bone
I like Roy's post near the beginning about the different parts of the body. Also, there are many references (esp in Proverbs etc) about multitude of counsellors. Note that that's *counsellors* (advisers, people to discuss with, sounding boards) not *dictators*. It is part of wisdom to discuss matters with others, especially those more spiritually mature whose judgment can be trusted.
Perhaps we should not make significant decisions without reference to other parts of the Body: husbands and wives conferring; parents and children if the children are old enough to have an opinion; maybe work colleagues if a decision impacts on them; as well as ministers or other "church" members.
Sometimes there really is that "you know that you know" moment but to expect that all the time and not to bother to use our (God-given) thinking capacity invites an erratic lifestyle and contradictory decisions, and can lead to much hurt.
(Thinking processes...the early Christians made a decision to stay in their cities in the face of Saul's known persecution of them. He was on his way to capture, imprison and murder them when he got blinded by the light. Many others in other cities had already been imprisoned/murdered. Did God tell them to go but they didn't listen (unlikely); did they decide to stay; was it simply that they had nowhere to go? Their decision to stay where they were, regardless of the likely consequences, benefits us even now through their often overlooked but magnificent witness that so worked on Saul's/Paul's own thinking process. I don't think you could say it was God's will that they be murdered. Neither can you say that they did *not* do God's will by staying. I believe there must have been a collective decision to stay put, with no ill-will towards those Christian brethren who chose to leave the cities temporarily or permanently.)
Bliss – the humble attitude expressed in your posts is exemplary! IMHO this whole decision-making process works best as we recognize biblical values [the things that would meet God's approval and give Him glory]. That is something that's mission-critical! Our attitude is what's at issue – not the critical and creative functions of our thinking ability.
The honesty of your post got me thinking of how we may harbor a fear of failure at times. Thinking about God putting Adam in charge of things I have some speculation – how much autonomy did he have?…for instance – Adam assigns names to God's creatures – how long did he deliberate on each species? Did he change his mind on naming some after reconsidering certain details? Was there trial and error involved as he worked in the Garden, developing maintenance programs for Paradise? Did he research what worked best for certain issues? Did he revise some procedures and routines? Did he make checklists?.... I'm trying to be more resilient in failure. It's not the end of the world. And I'm trying to learn more from the experience. I have a few scars that remind me to be more careful with tools. :)
Another Dan – Yup…cooperation…that's a great way to put it! I especially like your mention of an active connection with God…My view of the Christian life has changed considerably since leaving TWI. I no longer view the Bible as some kind of magic lamp activated by believing. I see the Bible more as a means of activating the mind and connecting with God.
Yes – God is working in His children – but how much do His children respond by working in Him? How does one learn His principles? Is it merely academic – or more experientially based? How do we mature in thought to choose the best course of action? I used to shy away from making decisions – lacking confidence in my thinking ability. Now I enjoy the freedom to sort through options, details and preferences.
In TWI I had this idea the Bible was all about showing me how to listen for that still small voice, to walk by revelation…But where does it say in the Bible we're to be alert to first thought? Where does it say we should look for signs or feel for promptings? Seems to me all that would tend to make one impulsive, prone to rash decisions. IMHO the Bible does have a lot to say about things like cultivating good attitudes, having patience, giving thought to our ways, making good moral choices, setting priorities in order – things that affect our decision-making process.
Twinky – I agree – consulting others is a great resource - the value of another viewpoint! The older I get – the more aware I become of my own shortcomings – and have grown to appreciate the insight gained from others. Maybe it's a combination of dropping my pride and trying to be more efficient.
And there's a lot of wisdom and respect behind another point you brought up – conferring with those who are touched by a decision – allowing them to participate in the process. That's something to think about in raising kids [or any training situation for that matter]. Consider how children mature as they keep pace with new challenges and responsibilities, as they get to make more and more decisions for themselves. How they will learn the importance of setting priorities, the power of focus, understand the ramifications of their decisions/actions. How else does confidence grow and skills become fine tuned?
What if we're getting more out of the whole process than just coming to a decision on something? What about all the work, thought and prayer it takes to get there? Just thinking out loud here…Imagine decision-making like mapping out a journey. Is there a difference between having someone drive me to a destination and me driving myself there? Yes. The driver could have taken me there ten times – but if you ask me how to get there – I wouldn't know – I never pay attention when I'm a passenger…But let me drive there a time or two – and I'll note landmarks, find short cuts, observe street names, explore alternate routes, etc. Being the driver can be more stressful at times – but the payoff is feeling like you're more in control and an awareness of where you are on the journey.
Have been spending a little time in Judges lately. Was struck last night by Jud.13. Remember the OT is for us to learn from, even if our cultural values are not the same.
Manoah and his unnamed wife are childless (v.2). An angel appears to the wife and gives her a message (vv 3-6), which she faithfully repeats word for word to Manoah (vv6-7). He rightly or wrongly prays for the angel to come again “to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.” The angel appears again – to the wife. She rushes off and gets Manoah (vv 9-10). The angel repeats the instruction already given to the wife previously (trusting guy, this Manoah). There’s a sacrifice, the angel disappears, Manoah gets all panicky, and the wife again speaks sensible words (v.24). The angel doesn’t appear again (v.21).
Next things we read about are Samson’s exploits as a young man.
What’s not there? How Manoah and Mrs Manoah brought up the young Samson: what to feed him; when to bathe/clean him; what training for life he should do; all the thousands of small and large decisions parents make for their children.
So who helped them? Must have had a multitude of counsellors – family, friends, associates, people at the synagogue or wherever they went. All these had input into the upbringing of the young and very special Samson.
Now think of the life of the young Jesus. The angel appears to Mary to give her the good news of the unexpected pregnancy. The angel also appears to Joseph at various times during the pregnancy and during the life of the young Jesus, to get the family to flee to Egypt and then to return to Israel (Nazareth). No record after they have been told to get back to Nazareth.
Again, the child Jesus would have been raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord by the extended family (and they must have been a great forgiving family, to overcome the serious disgrace of an unmarried daughter being pregnant), friends, and people in the synagogue/temple (perhaps especially Anna and Simeon, if they were still alive and accessible).
What don’t we see? The angel appearing to either Joseph or Mary to give specific instruction or daily direction. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and maybe it did. I’d tend to think that they had been given the responsibility and it was their job to raise the child and God’s job to see that others helped them, advising and guiding as appropriate, and to warn if something was about to go significantly wrong (as in Herod’s band of murderers about to kill all the toddlers). Also that it was available (oops for that expression) for them to pray and ask for specific guidance if they felt it was needed: but the guidance didn’t mean a special voice or angelic appearance, might just be a wise word from someone they knew anyway, or a recollection of a verse of the Scriptures they already knew.
If specific instruction (the voice of God) wasn’t given to the parents of these two very special babes and young men as to every detail of the special babes' lives – do we have a right to expect it to help us in our “normal” decisions (“what clothes should I wear today?” “How many loaves of bread/bags of apples should I buy?”)
(Just as an aside – I was also struck by the careful recitation of the angel’s instruction by Mrs Manoah to her husband. CP the TWI emphasis on Eve adding a bit, omitting a bit and changing a bit (therefore all women are to be “blamed” and are untrustworthy). But instead I “blame” Adam, as the instruction is given to him before she was formed, not to her so perhaps he relayed it not quite accurately or fully. But that’s another thread…)
Now back to the regularly-scheduled discussion about decision-making and the voice of God.
Have been spending a little time in Judges lately. Was struck last night by Jud.13. Remember the OT is for us to learn from, even if our cultural values are not the same....
...Now back to the regularly-scheduled discussion about decision-making and the voice of God.
Twinky, that's a lot of great stuff – and very important to our discussion. You've got me thinking about a lot of things – how children were raised in the Judaic culture…Perhaps the parents modeled decision-making and the will of God around Scripture. The early chapters of Proverbs sound like a father giving his son practical advice.
Something I believe we often fall short of at opportune times is to explain our thought process on a decision to our kids. What better way is there for them to start learning the ins and outs of making decisions then by having mom and dad break down the whole complicated process, the whys and wherefores.
And getting back to your point of godly parents raising exceptional kids - makes me think of your earlier post speaking about a multitude of counselors…I thought of
Psalm 119:24 NIV
Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors.
Perhaps this passage alludes to the use of Scripture in the thinking process…And like I mentioned earlier in this thread – that God leading us is predominantly moral guidance – is the same for Scripture. Proverbs is rich with principles for developing good business savvy – but God's wisdom also has a distinct moral aspect to it…for in the same book of Proverbs we read of God delighting in honest weights and measures in business transactions.
Petty refers to the decision-making model promoted in the book as the wisdom view, on page 33 & 34:
"In this view, divine guidance has nothing to do with discerning this secret plan and using it to make decisions. Guidance is given by God when he gives us insight into issues and choices so that we make the decisions with divinely inspired wisdom. Guidance comes, in short, by God making us wise. In this view, there is no seeking for clues or signs of God's plan; there is no need for a direct word spoken by prophecy, dream, or vision.
This wisdom view sees God as guiding his children mediately, not immediately. That is, his guidance is mediated [comes through] the illumination of our minds and hearts by the Word of God. God's work of illumination is like turning on the lights in an unfamiliar room. Once the lights are on, you can see and walk confidently. Otherwise, you need someone to take you by the hand and lead you. In the illuminated room, you can guide yourself, yet you are dependent on the light."
Thanks for the undeserved credit. I’m glad you’re enjoying the book, but I didn’t recommend it. The book was recommended on a blog to which I provided a link. The blog’s owner, Keith (aka; Captwade), is a Christian thinker and insatiable reader who often has something interesting and informative to say about Christian thought and apologetics, and other topics such as Christian counseling.
I actually don’t recall having read more than a blog-entry or two on Christian decision-making, though I did download (though I haven’t gotten around to watching/listening to) the first video of the first series (“Making Biblical Decisions, Part 1”) of a course by John Frame on Christian Ethics that appears at http://thirdmill.org/seminary/catalog/ethi...ategory/catalog
Some of Frame’s stuff is very good, though I don’t know about that work. An audio-CD set by Frame, called, “Doctrine of the Knowledge of God: History of Philosophy,” however, is – despite its mere 6-CD length – probably the most informative audio work I’ve come across. In 6 CDs, Frame manages to introduce his listeners to Meredith Kline’s comparison of biblical covenants to ancient near-eastern suzerain-vassal treaties, articulate his own “tri-perspectival” view of epistemology, and give an overview of Western philosophy from Thales to somewhere past Wittgenstein.
FYI, I got it here (when it came out costing 3 bucks, rather than 5 bucks, per CD):
Anyway, T-Bone, thanks again for the undeserved credit—and please excuse me for disclaiming it. Considering my age, I probably should just shut up, and start taking whatever I can get.
In Step by Step Petty talks about the sin of Adam and Eve which has me wondering about what may drive us to seek God's guidance [which also got me thinking about stuff on Word Wolf's thread What does God Know?].
Genesis 3:4, 5, 22, 23 NASB
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
IMHO there's a huge difference in what God knows and what we know – in terms of the way knowledge is processed. For God, the knowledge of good and evil is approached by a mind that is perfect holiness, righteous, benevolent, and all encompassing with infinite farsightedness to boot!
We, on the other hand, are fallen creatures with temporal/corporal limitations and imprisoned by our own self-centeredness. Our way of gaining knowledge of good and evil is through personal experience.
Perhaps from our myopic perspective we sometimes become impatient [maybe even doubt God's benevolence and providence] and want total control of things. We demand…beg…plead…grasp at straws…imagining there's got to be some way we can have more control of our situation.
How can God's sovereignty and human responsibility coexist? What if the way God has everything work out through His sovereignty takes into account the freewill decisions of His creatures. Then, in a sense, human responsibility is a necessary cog in the grand "machinery" of things.
Petty brings up the misconception of alternate plans of God. Plan A being the primary will of God for your life – but if you miss His guidance then you settle for plan B, miss that and you go to plan C, etc…This thinking ignores the sovereignty of God and His intimate knowledge and love for each person.
IMHO God has only ONE plan – His sovereign will – something that we all want the inside scoop on. But we're so easily prone to impatience, frustration and anxiety since we don't ever have the whole gamut of situations, events and decision-making crossroads mapped out before us. Imagine someone giving you a road map of the US, a compass, a car, travel money, a year off from work and saying "Take a trip and enjoy the experience." What would you do? Where would you go?
While in TWI – I preferred a map with a single line from start to finish – point A to point B. Don't put any other info on it except what's necessary – like marking on it the exit ramp where my car breaks down and the location of a good mechanic. It eliminates a lot of that complicated decision-making stuff. The thing is – I never had a map like that in TWI. I'd get partial maps, wrong directions [the revelation changes when circumstances change], predetermined destinations…and if you used their compass [TWI's moral compass always points to New Knoxville] you ain't getting very far.
Great sharing..I guess it goes as he works within us..In my pea brain..I can gps and work out details to the ying yang and get no where, but I do believe as our hearts and spirit are looking to him the peices come together alittle differently..Patience,ey..what a virtue..
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cman
T-Bone
You are saying there is and are choices in this particular will-choosing deal, correct.
There are some instances where there was not too many choices to choose.
Paul for example, did not choose to have himself knocked to the ground and blinded.
What do you think a person in Paul's situation today would have to face from those that were with him. Would they not send him to the hospital or sanitarium?
Be careful what you wish for.
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T-Bone
Maybe you’re confused about the Christian’s decision-making process based on God’s moral will. The alternative view as stated by Friesen and Maxson is that the Bible indicates nothing of an “individual will” governing each decision we make. In all decisions, Christians should honor God’s moral will [the commands and directives of the Bible] on matters touched by His moral code. As an oversimplified example consider the question, “what should I do for work?” Once a Christian checks options against God’s moral will [is the work honest and legal for instance] – then the other considerations would follow the person’s personal preferences, salary they’re looking for, etc. I think there’s enough scriptural references to indicate this is a biblical decision-making process for the Christian – and it’s based on God’s moral will – something already revealed in the Bible.
Your saying Paul did not choose to get knocked off his horse or blinded is correct – this is an example of God’s sovereign will, how He specifically plans to work certain things out, that is known only to God. The only choice on our part – is how we choose to respond to His sovereign will as it unfolds.
Yes – I am saying within the framework of God’s moral will [the commands and directives given in the Bible] – the Christian has choices. And should do so, responsibly – with wisdom and humble prayer. As you said “be careful what you wish for.”
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cman
No I'm not confused.
One would need to be sensitive to the spirit of the Word to get it's will.
And although we can look up chapter and verse, these are sometimes subject to interpretation.
Which also would lead to the spirit showing what it says to do at that time.
To do one thing the same way is not right every time the same situation happens.
If it's God's will, wether moral or sovereign, one must take in to account that which he hears.
That which he hears not only from the scripture being read or remembered, but also from others speaking by the spirit.
Now mind this, I'm not saying that anyone would be telling one what to do.
But that which is heard and received interprets by the spirit and then a clearer picture.
So on simple things like honesty and the like, basically no problem.
But we are faced with much more then this at times.
A willingness to leave one's own will and let it merge with the spirit's will, is no small task.
Especially if it goes against what one has believed and held to as truth.
When the will of God is in your face, plain as day, a real decision can be made.
Or not, because it will keep coming back around again.
But I believe it's small steps, though they seem giant at the time.
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cman
17And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus. 20And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Quite a few wills in play here, besides the one that knocked Paul blind.
Too much light can be as blinding as darkness.
As well as light being found in darkness.
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T-Bone
Okay – then maybe I’m getting confused by the way you’re complicating this issue. You’re right – the Bible is subject to interpretation – and this topic is a case in point.
I view the Bible as God’s moral will – His revealed will – that which He expects me as a Christian to follow. I see no reason to believe any verse holds specific guidance for what I should do if the particular situation does not involve any moral aspects of the Bible. Neither do I expect God to reveal His sovereign will – His hidden will – His specific plan for getting something done. Such as a specific directive – specific guidance to do something - as He did with Ananias in Acts 9, giving him directions to where Paul was, what Paul was doing, to lay hands on him and restore his sight…Does God still do things like that – yes! But that is His prerogative.
As I said in post # 26 referring to Psalms, Matthew 6:13, Romans 8:5-14 and Galatians 5:16-26 it appears that the guidance provided for the Christian is one of an intellectual/moral influence.
Perhaps I’m misunderstanding your viewpoint. I’m saying if a situation does not involve any moral aspects of the Bible then what’s the problem with me as a Christian using a thoughtful decision-making process to figure out what to do?
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cman
No problem at all T-Bone.
The subject of guidance by God is part of this thread,
so that is what I was talking about.
Which is really Listening to the Spirit within.
I'm not one of those who asks which shoe to tie first,
or all this other nonsense and messing with people's lives.
As has been brought up.
No one should be making your decisions for you.
On this I believe we agree and your point, I reckon.
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T-Bone
Gotcha. Like I was saying in post # 21 – thread discussions can be challenging – hopefully everyone has the patience to stick it out so that eventually we all have a good idea of what each other is saying. Sometimes I can get stuck in my perspective - going back and forth like this works good for me…guess it helps me get unstuck
.
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cman
One thing I've learned.
We do not operate the Spirit.
The Spirit operates in us to do his will.
Not to control but to manifest and bear fruit.
As we let this happen.
A narrow entrance but very wide road.
We cannot will the Spirit to do a darn thing.
But we pray, meditate on things and the eyes can open.
When the Lord is ready, he will come. With more every time.
By his will, not ours.
So...kind of deep there...
but of course honest common sense is not to be underestimated.
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T-Bone
…continuing to think out loud from my post # 26…I'm not satisfied with the terminology I used to differentiate between the two types of guidance – but that's the best I can do right now. I've thought about adding objective and subjective for the purpose of specifying their source.
Objective would apply to literal guidance – specific directives. It is God directly communicating to someone. Referring to the gospel that he preached, Paul said he didn't get it from man but received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ [Galatians 1:11, 12]. In his days as a persecutor, Paul certainly knew about Jesus – but then he personally met Him one day on the road to Damascus [Acts 9:1-16]. The source of this revelation was something external from Paul's mind. Paul's experience on the Damascus road was real, physical and even publicly verifiable – though the experience of Paul's traveling companions was not exactly the same as his [Acts 9:7 "The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one."]. In The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology by Arthur Reber & Emily Reber objective is characterizing a thing the nature of which is determinable through the use of physical measurement; uncontaminated by the emotional aspects of personal assessment; external to the body or mind; sensed or experienced as externally localized.
Subjective would apply to figurative guidance – intellectual/moral influence. God is communicating indirectly to a person. Jesus said if anyone is willing to do God's will, he will know whether or not Jesus' teaching is from God [John 7:17]. Akin to this is a reference by John of the Holy Spirit guiding believers into the truth . The Penguin Dictionary of Psychology says of subjective: loosely, characteristic of or dependent on an individual…that which is subjective is internal, personal, not available for public scrutiny…the fundamental nature of the event can only be experienced internally, privately…unreliable, biased, contaminated by personal, emotional evaluations.
As a Christian, thinking about the two types of guidance - objective/literal or subjective/figurative -I can only speak from experience about the latter and think Psychology's definition of subjective accurately describes my experience of being "led" by the Spirit. Things are not always cut and dry…there's times of wondering if a certain idea was mine or the Spirit's…a lot of times actually…and boy – thinking about my TWI years – how much I let their mindset and screwy interpretations of verses set a bias in my head. So I'm saying it's not a very reliable form of guidance - not only because it lacks substantial impact but also because my sinful/imperfect head can get in the way and really cloud the issues.
So, I believe that God's Spirit is in me – and that He works in me – mysteriously somehow – subtly – within my mind – within the way I personally process data coming in – perhaps at a subconscious level. I think our Creator does more to honor His creation by encouraging us to USE our minds to the max – which includes ferreting out all the whys and wherefores, options, relevant details, ramifications of decisions. His Spirit is present as a guide on our spiritual journey – inspiring us to imitate Christ, reminding us of our fallen nature, making a passage come alive and zing us in the heart or simply help us abstract a principle out of Scripture and see where it's applicable in our situation.
Again – just thinking aloud here – speculating about something not clearly articulated in Scripture – the Spirit's intellectual/moral guidance. In thinking about the radical shift in many of my beliefs since I left TWI – I wonder about what God has in mind with this internal, intellectual/moral guidance, this "being led by the Spirit" thing. I don't think it's meant to be an overt guidance system…some overpowering sensation that intrudes…He is not one to violate our person-hood.
I even went through a spell of disappointment with God after leaving TWI – wishing He would have been a little more obvious in helping me out of that mess…Oh I don't know – perhaps the disembodied voice of Charlton Heston screaming at me through a megaphone "Get out of there you big dummy!!!!" – and maybe throw in a burning PFAL book – and the book is totally consumed by the fire but all my furniture is unscathed – not even the smell of smoke upon it!
...I often recognize His influence in circumstances that call upon my faith, my nobler side – where in one instance it may be summoning the courage and strength to do the right thing or another time it's feeling compelled to hang out with a friend and just listen, love and let them unload.
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Oakspear
Hmmmm...not sure why you attached the terms subjective and objective to the two types of guidance. Especially where what you call objective guidance refers to the spiritual, which cannot be independently verified and is therefore subjective.
Can you elaborate?
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T-Bone
My concern on this topic has been an attempt to define Christianity’s concept of guidance from God. Which I think falls into two categories – and for want of better terms will just say for right now are: literal/specific directives and figurative/intellectual moral influence. And in my opinion the latter is typical for the Christian.
Oak’s post has helped me clarify a thought. When I speak of a literal guidance from God with specific directives – I am not including how the Bible was written. That is a book addressing many spiritual matters - these cannot be independently verified, measured, etc. – and as such are subjective in nature. In regards to the historical aspects of the Bible – that is something concrete – references to people, places, events and things that can be cross-referenced by other artifacts, books, independent sources, etc. – these are items of physical substance and can be analyzed…
What I am saying is that any literal guidance noted in the Bible could be verified – in terms of accuracy, measured, effects, etc. – and so would be objective. Ananias followed the specific directives of the Lord – he went to the specific street/house he was told about and found Paul.
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T-Bone
I've been thinking about two passages in Proverbs that IMHO stress a critical point in a Christian's decision-making process.
Proverbs 16:9 NIV
In his heart a man plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.
Commenting on Proverbs 16:9, The Expositor's Bible Commentary, Frank Gaebelein General Editor, Volume 5, page 1005:
"The Lord sovereignly determines the outworking of our plans. The Bible in general teaches that only those plans that are approved by him will succeed…The point is the contrast between what we actually plan and what actually happens – God determines that. As Paul later said, God is able to do abundantly more than we ask or think [Ephesians 3:20]."
A similar idea is expressed in Proverbs 19:
Proverbs 19:21 NIV
Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the LORD's purpose that prevails.
Page 1036 of the The Expositor's Bible Commentary says:
"The success of our plans depends on the will of God. In the form of a contrast, the proverb teaches that only those plans that God approves will succeed…"
What I infer from the above passages is that WE are responsible for making plans. As Christians, we may sincerely want or even claim God's direct guidance in formulating our plans – but the basic idea I see in these verses is that plans originate from man's heart. And perhaps the sentiment in Proverbs is a wise decision-maker develops plans with a humble heart, acknowledging the sovereignty of God.
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bliss
AMEN T!
I call it ''considerate'' when I check with HIM first. I don't always remember this.........but when I do, things do seem a lot clearer and smoother. No more 'believing' to get what I want. I just make sure it's something that He would approve of and gives glory to Him.
I just hate it when I am left to ''MY OWN" devices cuz I usually fall into the ditch.
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anotherDan
At this stage in my journey, I view my place as one of cooperation with God. As already noted, this is an acknowledgement of God's rule, and a willingness on my part to do His will. He knows best, and He can see down the road. God is "at work" within His children, both to will and to do... so even the decision-making process is one in which we are engaged with God, seeking to please Him, to be obedient to His guidance and rule... whether it be to the principles/law He has revealed, or to His personal guidance. I do not think it is possible to do the former without having that personal, active "connection."
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Twinky
What a thought provoking thread, thanks for starting it T-Bone
I like Roy's post near the beginning about the different parts of the body. Also, there are many references (esp in Proverbs etc) about multitude of counsellors. Note that that's *counsellors* (advisers, people to discuss with, sounding boards) not *dictators*. It is part of wisdom to discuss matters with others, especially those more spiritually mature whose judgment can be trusted.
Perhaps we should not make significant decisions without reference to other parts of the Body: husbands and wives conferring; parents and children if the children are old enough to have an opinion; maybe work colleagues if a decision impacts on them; as well as ministers or other "church" members.
Sometimes there really is that "you know that you know" moment but to expect that all the time and not to bother to use our (God-given) thinking capacity invites an erratic lifestyle and contradictory decisions, and can lead to much hurt.
(Thinking processes...the early Christians made a decision to stay in their cities in the face of Saul's known persecution of them. He was on his way to capture, imprison and murder them when he got blinded by the light. Many others in other cities had already been imprisoned/murdered. Did God tell them to go but they didn't listen (unlikely); did they decide to stay; was it simply that they had nowhere to go? Their decision to stay where they were, regardless of the likely consequences, benefits us even now through their often overlooked but magnificent witness that so worked on Saul's/Paul's own thinking process. I don't think you could say it was God's will that they be murdered. Neither can you say that they did *not* do God's will by staying. I believe there must have been a collective decision to stay put, with no ill-will towards those Christian brethren who chose to leave the cities temporarily or permanently.)
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T-Bone
Bliss – the humble attitude expressed in your posts is exemplary! IMHO this whole decision-making process works best as we recognize biblical values [the things that would meet God's approval and give Him glory]. That is something that's mission-critical! Our attitude is what's at issue – not the critical and creative functions of our thinking ability.
The honesty of your post got me thinking of how we may harbor a fear of failure at times. Thinking about God putting Adam in charge of things I have some speculation – how much autonomy did he have?…for instance – Adam assigns names to God's creatures – how long did he deliberate on each species? Did he change his mind on naming some after reconsidering certain details? Was there trial and error involved as he worked in the Garden, developing maintenance programs for Paradise? Did he research what worked best for certain issues? Did he revise some procedures and routines? Did he make checklists?.... I'm trying to be more resilient in failure. It's not the end of the world. And I'm trying to learn more from the experience. I have a few scars that remind me to be more careful with tools. :)
Another Dan – Yup…cooperation…that's a great way to put it! I especially like your mention of an active connection with God…My view of the Christian life has changed considerably since leaving TWI. I no longer view the Bible as some kind of magic lamp activated by believing. I see the Bible more as a means of activating the mind and connecting with God.
Yes – God is working in His children – but how much do His children respond by working in Him? How does one learn His principles? Is it merely academic – or more experientially based? How do we mature in thought to choose the best course of action? I used to shy away from making decisions – lacking confidence in my thinking ability. Now I enjoy the freedom to sort through options, details and preferences.
In TWI I had this idea the Bible was all about showing me how to listen for that still small voice, to walk by revelation…But where does it say in the Bible we're to be alert to first thought? Where does it say we should look for signs or feel for promptings? Seems to me all that would tend to make one impulsive, prone to rash decisions. IMHO the Bible does have a lot to say about things like cultivating good attitudes, having patience, giving thought to our ways, making good moral choices, setting priorities in order – things that affect our decision-making process.
Twinky – I agree – consulting others is a great resource - the value of another viewpoint! The older I get – the more aware I become of my own shortcomings – and have grown to appreciate the insight gained from others. Maybe it's a combination of dropping my pride and trying to be more efficient.
And there's a lot of wisdom and respect behind another point you brought up – conferring with those who are touched by a decision – allowing them to participate in the process. That's something to think about in raising kids [or any training situation for that matter]. Consider how children mature as they keep pace with new challenges and responsibilities, as they get to make more and more decisions for themselves. How they will learn the importance of setting priorities, the power of focus, understand the ramifications of their decisions/actions. How else does confidence grow and skills become fine tuned?
What if we're getting more out of the whole process than just coming to a decision on something? What about all the work, thought and prayer it takes to get there? Just thinking out loud here…Imagine decision-making like mapping out a journey. Is there a difference between having someone drive me to a destination and me driving myself there? Yes. The driver could have taken me there ten times – but if you ask me how to get there – I wouldn't know – I never pay attention when I'm a passenger…But let me drive there a time or two – and I'll note landmarks, find short cuts, observe street names, explore alternate routes, etc. Being the driver can be more stressful at times – but the payoff is feeling like you're more in control and an awareness of where you are on the journey.
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Twinky
Have been spending a little time in Judges lately. Was struck last night by Jud.13. Remember the OT is for us to learn from, even if our cultural values are not the same.
Manoah and his unnamed wife are childless (v.2). An angel appears to the wife and gives her a message (vv 3-6), which she faithfully repeats word for word to Manoah (vv6-7). He rightly or wrongly prays for the angel to come again “to teach us how to bring up the boy who is to be born.” The angel appears again – to the wife. She rushes off and gets Manoah (vv 9-10). The angel repeats the instruction already given to the wife previously (trusting guy, this Manoah). There’s a sacrifice, the angel disappears, Manoah gets all panicky, and the wife again speaks sensible words (v.24). The angel doesn’t appear again (v.21).
Next things we read about are Samson’s exploits as a young man.
What’s not there? How Manoah and Mrs Manoah brought up the young Samson: what to feed him; when to bathe/clean him; what training for life he should do; all the thousands of small and large decisions parents make for their children.
So who helped them? Must have had a multitude of counsellors – family, friends, associates, people at the synagogue or wherever they went. All these had input into the upbringing of the young and very special Samson.
Now think of the life of the young Jesus. The angel appears to Mary to give her the good news of the unexpected pregnancy. The angel also appears to Joseph at various times during the pregnancy and during the life of the young Jesus, to get the family to flee to Egypt and then to return to Israel (Nazareth). No record after they have been told to get back to Nazareth.
Again, the child Jesus would have been raised in the nurture and admonition of the Lord by the extended family (and they must have been a great forgiving family, to overcome the serious disgrace of an unmarried daughter being pregnant), friends, and people in the synagogue/temple (perhaps especially Anna and Simeon, if they were still alive and accessible).
What don’t we see? The angel appearing to either Joseph or Mary to give specific instruction or daily direction. Doesn’t mean it didn’t happen and maybe it did. I’d tend to think that they had been given the responsibility and it was their job to raise the child and God’s job to see that others helped them, advising and guiding as appropriate, and to warn if something was about to go significantly wrong (as in Herod’s band of murderers about to kill all the toddlers). Also that it was available (oops for that expression) for them to pray and ask for specific guidance if they felt it was needed: but the guidance didn’t mean a special voice or angelic appearance, might just be a wise word from someone they knew anyway, or a recollection of a verse of the Scriptures they already knew.
If specific instruction (the voice of God) wasn’t given to the parents of these two very special babes and young men as to every detail of the special babes' lives – do we have a right to expect it to help us in our “normal” decisions (“what clothes should I wear today?” “How many loaves of bread/bags of apples should I buy?”)
(Just as an aside – I was also struck by the careful recitation of the angel’s instruction by Mrs Manoah to her husband. CP the TWI emphasis on Eve adding a bit, omitting a bit and changing a bit (therefore all women are to be “blamed” and are untrustworthy). But instead I “blame” Adam, as the instruction is given to him before she was formed, not to her so perhaps he relayed it not quite accurately or fully. But that’s another thread…)
Now back to the regularly-scheduled discussion about decision-making and the voice of God.
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T-Bone
Twinky, that's a lot of great stuff – and very important to our discussion. You've got me thinking about a lot of things – how children were raised in the Judaic culture…Perhaps the parents modeled decision-making and the will of God around Scripture. The early chapters of Proverbs sound like a father giving his son practical advice.
Something I believe we often fall short of at opportune times is to explain our thought process on a decision to our kids. What better way is there for them to start learning the ins and outs of making decisions then by having mom and dad break down the whole complicated process, the whys and wherefores.
And getting back to your point of godly parents raising exceptional kids - makes me think of your earlier post speaking about a multitude of counselors…I thought of
Psalm 119:24 NIV
Your statutes are my delight; they are my counselors.
Perhaps this passage alludes to the use of Scripture in the thinking process…And like I mentioned earlier in this thread – that God leading us is predominantly moral guidance – is the same for Scripture. Proverbs is rich with principles for developing good business savvy – but God's wisdom also has a distinct moral aspect to it…for in the same book of Proverbs we read of God delighting in honest weights and measures in business transactions.
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T-Bone
I've started reading a great book recommended by Cynic in post # 2, Step by Step: Divine Guidance for Ordinary Christians by James Petty.
Petty refers to the decision-making model promoted in the book as the wisdom view, on page 33 & 34:
"In this view, divine guidance has nothing to do with discerning this secret plan and using it to make decisions. Guidance is given by God when he gives us insight into issues and choices so that we make the decisions with divinely inspired wisdom. Guidance comes, in short, by God making us wise. In this view, there is no seeking for clues or signs of God's plan; there is no need for a direct word spoken by prophecy, dream, or vision.
This wisdom view sees God as guiding his children mediately, not immediately. That is, his guidance is mediated [comes through] the illumination of our minds and hearts by the Word of God. God's work of illumination is like turning on the lights in an unfamiliar room. Once the lights are on, you can see and walk confidently. Otherwise, you need someone to take you by the hand and lead you. In the illuminated room, you can guide yourself, yet you are dependent on the light."
Thanks Cynic, for recommending a great book!
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Cynic
T-Bone,
Thanks for the undeserved credit. I’m glad you’re enjoying the book, but I didn’t recommend it. The book was recommended on a blog to which I provided a link. The blog’s owner, Keith (aka; Captwade), is a Christian thinker and insatiable reader who often has something interesting and informative to say about Christian thought and apologetics, and other topics such as Christian counseling.
I actually don’t recall having read more than a blog-entry or two on Christian decision-making, though I did download (though I haven’t gotten around to watching/listening to) the first video of the first series (“Making Biblical Decisions, Part 1”) of a course by John Frame on Christian Ethics that appears at http://thirdmill.org/seminary/catalog/ethi...ategory/catalog
Some of Frame’s stuff is very good, though I don’t know about that work. An audio-CD set by Frame, called, “Doctrine of the Knowledge of God: History of Philosophy,” however, is – despite its mere 6-CD length – probably the most informative audio work I’ve come across. In 6 CDs, Frame manages to introduce his listeners to Meredith Kline’s comparison of biblical covenants to ancient near-eastern suzerain-vassal treaties, articulate his own “tri-perspectival” view of epistemology, and give an overview of Western philosophy from Thales to somewhere past Wittgenstein.
FYI, I got it here (when it came out costing 3 bucks, rather than 5 bucks, per CD):
http://www.wtsbooks.com/product-exec/produ...s_/parent_id/61
Anyway, T-Bone, thanks again for the undeserved credit—and please excuse me for disclaiming it. Considering my age, I probably should just shut up, and start taking whatever I can get.
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T-Bone
Well anyway Cynic, thanks for posting the link!
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T-Bone
In Step by Step Petty talks about the sin of Adam and Eve which has me wondering about what may drive us to seek God's guidance [which also got me thinking about stuff on Word Wolf's thread What does God Know?].
Genesis 3:4, 5, 22, 23 NASB
4 The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die!
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"--
23 therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
IMHO there's a huge difference in what God knows and what we know – in terms of the way knowledge is processed. For God, the knowledge of good and evil is approached by a mind that is perfect holiness, righteous, benevolent, and all encompassing with infinite farsightedness to boot!
We, on the other hand, are fallen creatures with temporal/corporal limitations and imprisoned by our own self-centeredness. Our way of gaining knowledge of good and evil is through personal experience.
Perhaps from our myopic perspective we sometimes become impatient [maybe even doubt God's benevolence and providence] and want total control of things. We demand…beg…plead…grasp at straws…imagining there's got to be some way we can have more control of our situation.
How can God's sovereignty and human responsibility coexist? What if the way God has everything work out through His sovereignty takes into account the freewill decisions of His creatures. Then, in a sense, human responsibility is a necessary cog in the grand "machinery" of things.
Petty brings up the misconception of alternate plans of God. Plan A being the primary will of God for your life – but if you miss His guidance then you settle for plan B, miss that and you go to plan C, etc…This thinking ignores the sovereignty of God and His intimate knowledge and love for each person.
IMHO God has only ONE plan – His sovereign will – something that we all want the inside scoop on. But we're so easily prone to impatience, frustration and anxiety since we don't ever have the whole gamut of situations, events and decision-making crossroads mapped out before us. Imagine someone giving you a road map of the US, a compass, a car, travel money, a year off from work and saying "Take a trip and enjoy the experience." What would you do? Where would you go?
While in TWI – I preferred a map with a single line from start to finish – point A to point B. Don't put any other info on it except what's necessary – like marking on it the exit ramp where my car breaks down and the location of a good mechanic. It eliminates a lot of that complicated decision-making stuff. The thing is – I never had a map like that in TWI. I'd get partial maps, wrong directions [the revelation changes when circumstances change], predetermined destinations…and if you used their compass [TWI's moral compass always points to New Knoxville] you ain't getting very far.
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likeaneagle
Tbone
Great sharing..I guess it goes as he works within us..In my pea brain..I can gps and work out details to the ying yang and get no where, but I do believe as our hearts and spirit are looking to him the peices come together alittle differently..Patience,ey..what a virtue..
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