This post is mostly to/for Mark O'Malley. Mark, I just had to ask about this one. I'm mostly ignorant of Catholic beliefs as I left the Catholic church when I was a teenager and haven't really gone back. So maybe a good place to start is defining a relic. In my head I think of them as any type of man-made object which believers keep around in an effort to remind them of their beliefs. They could be crosses, medallions, statues, right on up to the holy grail, the holy lance or the Shroud of Turn.
I'm also thinking the bible says something about not worshiping things made by hand and God was plenty pi$$ed in the OT when the Israelites did so, on numerous occasions. Then again, He seemed okay with the things in the Tabernacle.
So, I'd be interested in hearing your perspective on this.
Thanks!
-JJ
In the Catholic Church, there are three types (or classes) or relics. I believe these classifications apply in the Orthodox churches, as well -- I know they venerate relics, as well, just not sure on the administrivia of it for them:
First Class: a part of the body of a saint or an instrument of Christ's crucifixion
Second Class: something touched or used by a saint
Third Class: an object that has come in contact with a first class relic
Let me give you the scriptural basis for this:
Act 5:15-16 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
We can see here that even Peter passing by healed people.
Act 19:11-12 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
Of course, we all know about the woman with the issue of blood touching the hem of the Lord's clothing.
2Ki 13:20-21 So Eli'sha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Eli'sha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Eli'sha, he revived, and stood on his feet.
So we can see that God was able to use even the bones of Eli'sha to work a miracle...no prayer involved, just the contact with the bones.
Jos 24:32 The bones of Joseph which the people of Israel brought up from Egypt were buried at Shechem, in the portion of ground which Jacob bought from the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for a hundred pieces of money; it became an inheritance of the descendants of Joseph.
That seems to be an extraordinary amount of veneration for the relics of a dead person.
Then we have inantimate objects. Think about what God ordered Israel to place inside the tabernacle. I know that there is symbology involved there, but the fact is that the manna, Aaron's rod, and the ten commandments were physical objects.
2Ki 2:12-14 And Eli'sha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces. And he took up the mantle of Eli'jah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. Then he took the mantle of Eli'jah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, "Where is the LORD, the God of Eli'jah?" And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other; and Eli'sha went over.
Eli'sha obviously saw some significance in putting on Elijah's mantle. Using the mantle to strike the water...what's with that?
And so on. God often uses things to manifest his power (clothes, bones, mantle, water, oil, Aaron's rod, etc.)
So that is the scriptural background on relics. There, honestly, isn't a proof-text that I can cite. The use of things is a practice that has come down to us from Judaism and was shown as well in Acts and was practiced by Christians since the beginning.
Unfortunately, like with many things in our beliefs, relics can be used and abused horribly.
One thing that I find personally offensive is when I see relics being bought and sold (a rather common practice on ebay). That is the sin of Simony.
Another thing is when the relic is invested with voodoo-like power in the mind of somebody. That smacks of idolatry.
But there is a scriptural basis for the veneration of relics as a rememberence of the person. And there is a scriptural basis for God using physical things, including relics, for working His power.
BTW, I think the issue with God getting pi$$ed at Israel worshiping THINGS but not having a problem with the tabernacle (or otherwise as I've pointed out above) can be illustrated by this modern example.
You know that in any Catholic Church there is a crucifix and there are usually statues.
We venerate the crucifix. But we don't think that the corpus on the crucifix IS Christ, rather it represents Christ crucified, whom we worship and adore. We venerate the statuary, not that the statuary IS the saint, but that it is a representation of the saint...
When God showed His wrath, Israel was WORSHIPPING the Golden Calf...like the Golden Calf was something special and worthy of worship itself. I think that's the difference.
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markomalley
In the Catholic Church, there are three types (or classes) or relics. I believe these classifications apply in the Orthodox churches, as well -- I know they venerate relics, as well, just not sure on the administrivia of it for them:
First Class: a part of the body of a saint or an instrument of Christ's crucifixion
Second Class: something touched or used by a saint
Third Class: an object that has come in contact with a first class relic
Let me give you the scriptural basis for this:
Act 5:15-16 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.
We can see here that even Peter passing by healed people.
Act 19:11-12 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.
Of course, we all know about the woman with the issue of blood touching the hem of the Lord's clothing.
2Ki 13:20-21 So Eli'sha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Eli'sha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Eli'sha, he revived, and stood on his feet.
So we can see that God was able to use even the bones of Eli'sha to work a miracle...no prayer involved, just the contact with the bones.
Jos 24:32 The bones of Joseph which the people of Israel brought up from Egypt were buried at Shechem, in the portion of ground which Jacob bought from the sons of Hamor the father of Shechem for a hundred pieces of money; it became an inheritance of the descendants of Joseph.
That seems to be an extraordinary amount of veneration for the relics of a dead person.
Then we have inantimate objects. Think about what God ordered Israel to place inside the tabernacle. I know that there is symbology involved there, but the fact is that the manna, Aaron's rod, and the ten commandments were physical objects.
2Ki 2:12-14 And Eli'sha saw it and he cried, "My father, my father! the chariots of Israel and its horsemen!" And he saw him no more. Then he took hold of his own clothes and rent them in two pieces. And he took up the mantle of Eli'jah that had fallen from him, and went back and stood on the bank of the Jordan. Then he took the mantle of Eli'jah that had fallen from him, and struck the water, saying, "Where is the LORD, the God of Eli'jah?" And when he had struck the water, the water was parted to the one side and to the other; and Eli'sha went over.
Eli'sha obviously saw some significance in putting on Elijah's mantle. Using the mantle to strike the water...what's with that?
And so on. God often uses things to manifest his power (clothes, bones, mantle, water, oil, Aaron's rod, etc.)
So that is the scriptural background on relics. There, honestly, isn't a proof-text that I can cite. The use of things is a practice that has come down to us from Judaism and was shown as well in Acts and was practiced by Christians since the beginning.
Unfortunately, like with many things in our beliefs, relics can be used and abused horribly.
One thing that I find personally offensive is when I see relics being bought and sold (a rather common practice on ebay). That is the sin of Simony.
Another thing is when the relic is invested with voodoo-like power in the mind of somebody. That smacks of idolatry.
But there is a scriptural basis for the veneration of relics as a rememberence of the person. And there is a scriptural basis for God using physical things, including relics, for working His power.
BTW, I think the issue with God getting pi$$ed at Israel worshiping THINGS but not having a problem with the tabernacle (or otherwise as I've pointed out above) can be illustrated by this modern example.
You know that in any Catholic Church there is a crucifix and there are usually statues.
We venerate the crucifix. But we don't think that the corpus on the crucifix IS Christ, rather it represents Christ crucified, whom we worship and adore. We venerate the statuary, not that the statuary IS the saint, but that it is a representation of the saint...
When God showed His wrath, Israel was WORSHIPPING the Golden Calf...like the Golden Calf was something special and worthy of worship itself. I think that's the difference.
Hope the above helps.
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JumpinJive
Interesting, Mark! Thanks for the reply. I'm not quite sure what to make of it. I hadn't thought of it quite that amount of detail.
-JJ
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