I'm reading all these posts, they are incredible, thank you all (even ex! ) I'm at work and I'm just waking up so I can't respond more but I am reading them all. Thanks bunches for the input.
I can't help but think of Tex Watson, ya know Charles Manson's right hand man? Yikes. I know it took me a long time to accept that the guy seemed like he truly repented for what he did, and from what I remember (it's been awhile) I think I finally beleived him, not that it matters, as others have pointed out. It's what God knows is on his heart.
But to truly repent for being responsilbe for such vicious killings would have to be hell. I mean to be truly sorry. That would have to be harder than asking God to forgive you for stealing a cracker for heavens sake!
Anyway, getting back to work (and reading the posts when I have a chance)
Cool stuff! Well, as they say - here's some more...
Looking at forgiveness from different sides helps to define it better, I think. Like the "being sorry" part.
On the one hand a person might be sorry to God for something, and it be at very different levels, depending on the person and what it is. But the "repenting" is there, to God.
It could be the same between people - a child could be sorry for disobeying their parents - period. And sorry for whatever it is they did to disobey.
The parent might say - "I just want the best for you, I want things to go well for you no matter what it is you do". And they might then say "this thing will take some doing, but I love you, forgive you and we'll get 'er right!"
Does God do the same? It seems so.
Redepmtion in our lives is like a floor when it's swept. The floor might have dust, wood cuttings, wood chips, nails, bent screws, paper, all kinds of different things that represent different activities.
One big broom comes along and sweeps them away.
They don't become the same kind of debris to accomodate the sweeping, the sweeping catches them all. The sweeper says "now THAT'S a broom!" when it's done.
The size of the forgivenss, the range, that God appears to propose with Jesus Christ the redeemer, is vast in it's capacity.
That capacity - who has it? Can we? Do we? If so, where do the resources come from to even entertain such thoughts?
As Ex said understanding how they got there can make it easier. For instance, my father BEAT us all the time, he was awful like that. Once, I drove my sister to the police to try and get a restraining order.
Well, my father was so severely beaten by his mother it was unreal. She threw him through plate glass, she would pull the kids out of bed by the hair then drag them, banging on the steps, to the kitchen and make them rewash the dishes if she did not think they were clean enough.
In understanding how my father GOT there, it makes me give him a lot more rope.
I guess the cool thing about getting saved is, it does not matter how far away you were from doing things right, God does the broom thing, SOCKS metioned, and kind of sweeps all of us collectively to salvation. Whether we murdered someone or gambled away the morgage, or the worst thing we ever did was foget to make Susie lunch one day.
It seems salvation brings us all to an equal playing field.
However, some of the things we have done will still bring on consequences, like you may still loose the house because you gambled away the morgage, or you may still go to the "chair" if you committed murder. So, even though spiritually we are all at the starting gate when we are saved, many of us still have things we have to pay for. Even though God HAS forgiven us for our sins.
It reminds me of the stor-ee in 2 Samuel 11, David and all of that. Verse 27 -
And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.
David was a hotshot, for sure. And he did all of what he did with Uriah, his armies and Bethsheba, the whole story and then he wrapped it up in a nice tight red bow.
But -insert the sound of a lone sheep bleeting in sorrow off in the night somewhere as David blows out the last candle and goes to bed -
...the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.
David's repentance was deep and personal when confronted with what he already knew was wrong but had allowed himself.
What David rendered to himself and his country was horrible - people died, David had a child die. But David repented, was "sorry". Forgiveness wasn't assumed. David didn't say "yeah, well...it won't happen again". He worked to make his life right again.
Like What the Hey said - forgiveness isn't a license to sin.
It's permission to learn and do better - mercy even when none is deserved, grace and help where and when we need it most. And while we were yet sinners.
With God, to at least begin to ponder the enormity of what He's proposed - that through the life of another amends have been made.
Amends have been made. Not ignored or forgotten. Accounted for.
Christian's today can easily take the attitude that God through Christ forgave me my sins. I do stuff wrong, I'm human. That's why I needed a savior. There's no condemnation, y'know - it won't happen again.
But it does happen again, if not this, then that. We are human.
I think the bible gives a range of information that would allow a person to approach forgiveness to another in a realistic honest way that will bring balance into our lives in time if we work with it. Hardest of all may be to forgive ourselves.
The fact that some things are harder to forgive than others shouldn't be a surprise or a hindrance to any of us.
To forgive another in light of Christ's sacrifice is proabably one of the "heaviest" things I can think of. If He really did live, and die and do what the gospels rercord as part of some plan of God for all of humanity - to take any of the things we do and lay them there and say "this is why Christ died, so you and I could be forgiven for even this...".
Whoa. We put ourselves right in the stream of eternity. That's involvement and accountablity. That's holy ground.
What right do I have to presume such a thing? None. The New Life I can live is by the sacrifice of another. It leads the thoughtful person to consider - I think, what can I do better now? How can I respond in a way that would be equal to that?
We can't, but we can do what we can do now. We can try, we can do better, as many times as it takes, as much as we can muster.
If it's a struggle sometimes, it may be because it should be. If we didn't struggle with it, would we care? Would we be thinking?
Great discussion I'm enjoying reading these posts. Yeah Dots I know what it's like to have a mean dad. And Joyce Meyer has gone into that particular topic many times. She says where you come from may be a reason for the kind of person that you are, but it's not an excuse to stay that way.
Easier said than done. Although she is absolutely right.
I think the way that some well meaning Christians teach the subject (of forgiveness) comes off the wrong way, and to be frank, is quite offensive and not even helpful to people who really need to chanage some bad behavior. (ie stealing a cracker is no worse to God than raping and murdering an 93 year old woman)
I guess I'm kind of a hypocrite too though. It's the old "my sins aren't as bad as someone elses." Same thing you see in prison. The child molesters are on the lowest tier, to give the axe murderers someone to look down on.
Sigh. Thanks for all the posts though I am continuing reading them at work when I get a chance!
awww thanks exie. I need a lot of forgiveness that is for sure.
On another note. I think it could be just as hard to forgive yourself if you are truly sorry for something you have done or have caused to happen.
I hesitate going into this because I know how judgemental people can be (myself included)
I pen pal with a lady in a NC prison in Raleigh. She blew a red light while legally over the limit (BAC level) and killed 4 teenagers and seriously injured a fifth. She got 75 years in prison. Whew. That's another story entirely that I won't get into on this board, ever. (there is another board I go to for that) but my point being is that this girl is in agony over what she did (as well as having to face the harsh realiites of prison life everyday, for the rest of her life) to these kids, their families, and her own loved ones as well. It's damn near killing her mother. Can you imagine? She used to sincerely wish she was dead because the agony and pain she knew she had caused to others was so great.
She is heavily involved in bible studies in prison, which are helping to some extent, but she just cannot forgive herself, even though she knows what the bible says about God forgiving her. But she has yet to come to that for herself.
Weather the harsh realities of every day prison life will eventually dim the guilt she feels, I don't know. But I do believe that people who are truly repentive will find it the hardest to really believe God has forgiven them in His mercy, and will find it damn near impossible to forgive themselves. That takes some kind of enlightenment. For me anyway. I can't speak for anyone else.
Yeah I know. I saw her get crucified on Court TV, you would have thought she was a freaking serial killer the way these people were talking about her. I could have done the same thing at any given time in my life, even stone cold sober, just not paying attention ya know?
Then some guy who rapes a woman or shoots someone and is totally unrepentive gets out after a few years in prison to do it again. God I don't know. But, I'm choo chooing. sorry.
I am sick for your friend. Just sick. You know EXXON who ruined part of Alaska with an intoxicated ship captain? The dead wild life the whole mess? Do you know EXXON has Still not paid Alaska? They keep appealing....
Yet, in a drive with bad bad judgement your frind got 75 years? I do feel bad for the families, but 75 years?
Thanks ex and Dots for the kind words about Missy (my pen pal friend) Oh Dots don't get me started on Exxon and those oil spills. I can't even let myself get angry because I feel such greif for those poor creatures that they tortured and hurt. It's just too much...
Thanks for asking about my Rottie, Nico. She is six years old now and doing fine. She's stiffening up in the joints a bit so Ive just got her some glycoflex. If that doesn't help I will take her to the vet. She goes to work with me every day and she has her own office with her toys and food and her own couch. I kid you not.
I have a small pic of us at work in my profile section, and here is one of her at home on the couch.
It's much easier to forgive others than to forgive yourself.
When faced with accepting Christ's work and forgiveness for myself I have to just bite the bullet and accept Christ's love and forgiveness or else live in misery. It's a choice.
Some people elect to keep sinning in various ways and to not accept forgiveness for your sins is a sin -- it's saying that your sin is bigger than Christ's living sacrifice, which is just not so.
Again, I hate writing/saying these things because stuff just popped up in my mind that I have the question your friend is having, and no excuse.
Wow. Kit. What a great response. For my friend and for myself, as well. Thanks. I'm going to remember this response and somehow respond to her with this. In her last letter she was having issues with this, and the 8 year anniversary of this day of hell that happened is coming up next month. I know she will be going through a tough time then.
"not accept forgiveness for your sins is a sin -- it's saying that your sin is bigger than Christ's living sacrifice, which is just not so."
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Dot Matrix
Ex
Jesus is watching you. Be nice
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha dottie
for real, i meant it like you did !!!!!!
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RottieGrrrl
I'm reading all these posts, they are incredible, thank you all (even ex!
) I'm at work and I'm just waking up so I can't respond more but I am reading them all. Thanks bunches for the input.
I can't help but think of Tex Watson, ya know Charles Manson's right hand man? Yikes. I know it took me a long time to accept that the guy seemed like he truly repented for what he did, and from what I remember (it's been awhile) I think I finally beleived him, not that it matters, as others have pointed out. It's what God knows is on his heart.
But to truly repent for being responsilbe for such vicious killings would have to be hell. I mean to be truly sorry. That would have to be harder than asking God to forgive you for stealing a cracker for heavens sake!
Anyway, getting back to work (and reading the posts when I have a chance)
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socks
Cool stuff! Well, as they say - here's some more...
Looking at forgiveness from different sides helps to define it better, I think. Like the "being sorry" part.
On the one hand a person might be sorry to God for something, and it be at very different levels, depending on the person and what it is. But the "repenting" is there, to God.
It could be the same between people - a child could be sorry for disobeying their parents - period. And sorry for whatever it is they did to disobey.
The parent might say - "I just want the best for you, I want things to go well for you no matter what it is you do". And they might then say "this thing will take some doing, but I love you, forgive you and we'll get 'er right!"
Does God do the same? It seems so.
Redepmtion in our lives is like a floor when it's swept. The floor might have dust, wood cuttings, wood chips, nails, bent screws, paper, all kinds of different things that represent different activities.
One big broom comes along and sweeps them away.
They don't become the same kind of debris to accomodate the sweeping, the sweeping catches them all. The sweeper says "now THAT'S a broom!" when it's done.
The size of the forgivenss, the range, that God appears to propose with Jesus Christ the redeemer, is vast in it's capacity.
That capacity - who has it? Can we? Do we? If so, where do the resources come from to even entertain such thoughts?
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excathedra
for what it's worth, forgiveness seems to come easier for me when i realize how the person who wronged me came to be who they are....
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cman
When there is nothing left to fight.
Then the flight takes on new wings.
To try and take on that which does not belong in your hands.
It appears to grow to a multitude of nothing that looks like something.
To find release from our selves.
Is to see through the eyes of God.
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Dot Matrix
As Ex said understanding how they got there can make it easier. For instance, my father BEAT us all the time, he was awful like that. Once, I drove my sister to the police to try and get a restraining order.
Well, my father was so severely beaten by his mother it was unreal. She threw him through plate glass, she would pull the kids out of bed by the hair then drag them, banging on the steps, to the kitchen and make them rewash the dishes if she did not think they were clean enough.
In understanding how my father GOT there, it makes me give him a lot more rope.
I guess the cool thing about getting saved is, it does not matter how far away you were from doing things right, God does the broom thing, SOCKS metioned, and kind of sweeps all of us collectively to salvation. Whether we murdered someone or gambled away the morgage, or the worst thing we ever did was foget to make Susie lunch one day.
It seems salvation brings us all to an equal playing field.
However, some of the things we have done will still bring on consequences, like you may still loose the house because you gambled away the morgage, or you may still go to the "chair" if you committed murder. So, even though spiritually we are all at the starting gate when we are saved, many of us still have things we have to pay for. Even though God HAS forgiven us for our sins.
Cman
Very poetic.
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socks
That's about where I'm at, Dot
It reminds me of the stor-ee in 2 Samuel 11, David and all of that. Verse 27 -
And when the mourning was past, David sent and fetched her to his house, and she became his wife, and bare him a son. But the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.
David was a hotshot, for sure. And he did all of what he did with Uriah, his armies and Bethsheba, the whole story and then he wrapped it up in a nice tight red bow.
But -insert the sound of a lone sheep bleeting in sorrow off in the night somewhere as David blows out the last candle and goes to bed -
...the thing that David had done displeased the LORD.
David's repentance was deep and personal when confronted with what he already knew was wrong but had allowed himself.
What David rendered to himself and his country was horrible - people died, David had a child die. But David repented, was "sorry". Forgiveness wasn't assumed. David didn't say "yeah, well...it won't happen again". He worked to make his life right again.
Like What the Hey said - forgiveness isn't a license to sin.
It's permission to learn and do better - mercy even when none is deserved, grace and help where and when we need it most. And while we were yet sinners.
With God, to at least begin to ponder the enormity of what He's proposed - that through the life of another amends have been made.
Amends have been made. Not ignored or forgotten. Accounted for.
Christian's today can easily take the attitude that God through Christ forgave me my sins. I do stuff wrong, I'm human. That's why I needed a savior. There's no condemnation, y'know - it won't happen again.
But it does happen again, if not this, then that. We are human.
I think the bible gives a range of information that would allow a person to approach forgiveness to another in a realistic honest way that will bring balance into our lives in time if we work with it. Hardest of all may be to forgive ourselves.
The fact that some things are harder to forgive than others shouldn't be a surprise or a hindrance to any of us.
To forgive another in light of Christ's sacrifice is proabably one of the "heaviest" things I can think of. If He really did live, and die and do what the gospels rercord as part of some plan of God for all of humanity - to take any of the things we do and lay them there and say "this is why Christ died, so you and I could be forgiven for even this...".
Whoa. We put ourselves right in the stream of eternity. That's involvement and accountablity. That's holy ground.
What right do I have to presume such a thing? None. The New Life I can live is by the sacrifice of another. It leads the thoughtful person to consider - I think, what can I do better now? How can I respond in a way that would be equal to that?
We can't, but we can do what we can do now. We can try, we can do better, as many times as it takes, as much as we can muster.
If it's a struggle sometimes, it may be because it should be. If we didn't struggle with it, would we care? Would we be thinking?
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cman
Thanks Dot,
I can understand how hard it is to let go of things like that.
I've had my share of stuff too, as many here and everywhere have.
The lack of understanding of another person's reasons should not stop us.
I know it's hard. But we are only in control of our own selves and can't see others clearly at times.
The only way I know of to see more clearly is to resolve our own issues and then move on.
Letting things unfold before us. Letting rather then forcing our wills upon another or even our selves.
It seems that to is how it has worked for me. And that is all I can truly speak of.
Seeing and experiencing forgiveness in Christ first hand takes the battle out of my hands.
And puts it in His, where it belongs. So I can finally think clearly.
I cannot do what Christ can do. I have to accept that or continue being beaten by myself.
Concern and care from others help.
As I am with those who have been so abused.
Peace.
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RottieGrrrl
Great discussion I'm enjoying reading these posts. Yeah Dots I know what it's like to have a mean dad. And Joyce Meyer has gone into that particular topic many times. She says where you come from may be a reason for the kind of person that you are, but it's not an excuse to stay that way.
Easier said than done. Although she is absolutely right.
I think the way that some well meaning Christians teach the subject (of forgiveness) comes off the wrong way, and to be frank, is quite offensive and not even helpful to people who really need to chanage some bad behavior. (ie stealing a cracker is no worse to God than raping and murdering an 93 year old woman)
I guess I'm kind of a hypocrite too though. It's the old "my sins aren't as bad as someone elses." Same thing you see in prison. The child molesters are on the lowest tier, to give the axe murderers someone to look down on.
Sigh. Thanks for all the posts though I am continuing reading them at work when I get a chance!
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excathedra
rottie girl you know i love you (and i forgive you
)
take care
seriously when i think of something of value, i promise i'll post
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RottieGrrrl
awww thanks exie. I need a lot of forgiveness that is for sure.
On another note. I think it could be just as hard to forgive yourself if you are truly sorry for something you have done or have caused to happen.
I hesitate going into this because I know how judgemental people can be (myself included)
I pen pal with a lady in a NC prison in Raleigh. She blew a red light while legally over the limit (BAC level) and killed 4 teenagers and seriously injured a fifth. She got 75 years in prison. Whew. That's another story entirely that I won't get into on this board, ever. (there is another board I go to for that) but my point being is that this girl is in agony over what she did (as well as having to face the harsh realiites of prison life everyday, for the rest of her life) to these kids, their families, and her own loved ones as well. It's damn near killing her mother. Can you imagine? She used to sincerely wish she was dead because the agony and pain she knew she had caused to others was so great.
She is heavily involved in bible studies in prison, which are helping to some extent, but she just cannot forgive herself, even though she knows what the bible says about God forgiving her. But she has yet to come to that for herself.
Weather the harsh realities of every day prison life will eventually dim the guilt she feels, I don't know. But I do believe that people who are truly repentive will find it the hardest to really believe God has forgiven them in His mercy, and will find it damn near impossible to forgive themselves. That takes some kind of enlightenment. For me anyway. I can't speak for anyone else.
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excathedra
ohmygosh, rottie
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah I know. I saw her get crucified on Court TV, you would have thought she was a freaking serial killer the way these people were talking about her. I could have done the same thing at any given time in my life, even stone cold sober, just not paying attention ya know?
Then some guy who rapes a woman or shoots someone and is totally unrepentive gets out after a few years in prison to do it again. God I don't know. But, I'm choo chooing. sorry.
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excathedra
no need to be sorry
i'm so very sorry about your penpal friend
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Dot Matrix
Rottie
I am sick for your friend. Just sick. You know EXXON who ruined part of Alaska with an intoxicated ship captain? The dead wild life the whole mess? Do you know EXXON has Still not paid Alaska? They keep appealing....
Yet, in a drive with bad bad judgement your frind got 75 years? I do feel bad for the families, but 75 years?
Sorry. Back on topic
(PS How is your Rottie?)
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RottieGrrrl
Thanks ex and Dots for the kind words about Missy (my pen pal friend) Oh Dots don't get me started on Exxon and those oil spills. I can't even let myself get angry because I feel such greif for those poor creatures that they tortured and hurt. It's just too much...
Thanks for asking about my Rottie, Nico. She is six years old now and doing fine. She's stiffening up in the joints a bit so Ive just got her some glycoflex. If that doesn't help I will take her to the vet. She goes to work with me every day and she has her own office with her toys and food and her own couch. I kid you not.
I have a small pic of us at work in my profile section, and here is one of her at home on the couch.
I hope this works. Nico looken sexy
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Kit Sober
RG,
It's much easier to forgive others than to forgive yourself.
When faced with accepting Christ's work and forgiveness for myself I have to just bite the bullet and accept Christ's love and forgiveness or else live in misery. It's a choice.
Some people elect to keep sinning in various ways and to not accept forgiveness for your sins is a sin -- it's saying that your sin is bigger than Christ's living sacrifice, which is just not so.
Again, I hate writing/saying these things because stuff just popped up in my mind that I have the question your friend is having, and no excuse.
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RottieGrrrl
Wow. Kit. What a great response. For my friend and for myself, as well. Thanks. I'm going to remember this response and somehow respond to her with this. In her last letter she was having issues with this, and the 8 year anniversary of this day of hell that happened is coming up next month. I know she will be going through a tough time then.
"not accept forgiveness for your sins is a sin -- it's saying that your sin is bigger than Christ's living sacrifice, which is just not so."
Never, ever thought of that.
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cman
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