I have a hard time with this. The bible commands us to forgive. Yet when it comes to atrotious acts I don't understand it. God doesn't forgive the devil right? How can we forgive things like the BTK killer? Especially when people are so damn unrepentive? Can somebody enlighten me a little?
I know in the Ten Commandments God says, "Thou shalt not murder" He also says, "Thou shalt not steal" (nothing about crackers). But I strongly disagree with VP's interpretation that their are no degrees of sin (with the exception of the "unforgiveable sin"). In the New Testatment many "sins" are singled out as being something that God finds repulsive and murder is one of them. The emphasis in the NT on sin is "intent". In other words God does not condone stealing, but if a person is starving and steals a cracker then in some manner attempts to give reparation to the victim then God can forgive the sin. In that instance both non evil intent and repentence are evident. It is available for a murderer to gain His forgiveness, but it would require true repentence and I think that part of that would be honest attempt at reparation with the living victims. I don't personally feel that a trip to the confessional and 12 Our Fathers or 10 Hail Mary's would cover it.
For our part we are human so forgiveness is difficult for us. But if we put on the mind of Christ...
I've heard folks from TWI teach that 'sin-is-sin' doctrine. That's kind of how they justified the totality of grace over works and once-saved-always saved, to the point they believed that even murders can't be kept out of heaven if they are truly born again. (I'm not sure I believe that, but that's another thread.)
I've mostly understood forgiveness (as well as confession) as something more of benefit to believers than to God. Getting wrapped up in someone else's past offenses against you can lead to a host of negative emotional baggage. Better to let it go than be sucked into it. As for the perpetrator, I can't see my forgiveness meaning very much to them unless they are truly repentant. In that case, forgiveness might be able to relieve some guilt and shame and that makes everybody's life a little better.
But I see that as mostly involving emotional hurts. How God's forgiveness works in more serious matters is quite beyond me. I don't give a lot of thought to the plight of captured serial killers but it seems to me the only forgiveness that should really matter to them is God's. God's decision is the one that might allow them life after their current walk on earth, not mine.
I just want to jump in here real quick and thank you both for your answers. I am reading them, and re-reading them and I think you both make some excellent points. This is something I have a super hard time with, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't go along with, or has a hard time with, the "sin is sin" no matter what it is. I could add more but I don't want to ramble and I am still pondering the posts.
ooh, got another post while i was posting! Cool! going back to read it now.
You know Rottie, there was all this hub-bub over this Mystery thing on Oprah that I decided to watch it. I wasn't all that impressed but one thing on forgiveness did click for me.
You know the old saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Isn't that a good thing? In that show one of the people talked about getting to a place were you realise what you have learned from bad situtations and bad things people did to you, to the end that those events don't have control over you in some way, is the point in which you can forgive. At that point, you can say to that person (in your own head if you like) "thank you for helping me learn ________", "thank you for making me stronger in __________ area of my life....but you no longer have a hold on me."
It helps us realise what we have learned, what we have gained (even if we have lost a lot), and why we are now better off....while at the same time not letting go of accountability, not letting them off the hook, but not holding the hook either.
I liked that. It makes sense to me and helped me realise why I have been able to move on....becuase I have always had that mind set (what doesn't kill you...) for the most part.
I guess the hard part of that is realising what we have learned and gained from the most horrific trauma or something much less, and coming to accept that and moving on with that new knowledge and strength in a better way instead of allowing it to hold us back.
Thank you all for your posts. I am thankful that I never had anything horrific happen to me at the hands of another human being where I would have to personally deal with that. Can you imagine? Gads. But I guess forgiveness is important, as previous posters said, because otherswise these people have a hold over your life. Many times people eat themselves away at hating someone while that person goes on merrily with their life. I'm still pondering the posts and these thoughts so thanks all.
I remember reading "their sin was great" talking about Eli's sons...............and somehow I'm thinking there has got to be degrees of sin.
And this is where I think twi could have taught us better...
hmmm. I will have to look that up. Thanks.
It would be a pretty big study, but don't the OT laws have different levels of punishment associated with non-compliance? I mean, you didn't get stoned for everything, right?
It would be a pretty big study, but don't the OT laws have different levels of punishment associated with non-compliance? I mean, you didn't get stoned for everything, right?
-JJ
Yeah well that's another point. Under our law we have different levels too right? I mean if sin is sin no matter what, (which I should point out that I know many other Christian groups preach too) than why don't we give people who steal pencils from work the death penalty.
Oh, I know I'm getting weird, but obviously we recognize that there certainly are different consequences for different actions. I'd rather have someone steal 5 dollars from my purse than murder me, or someone I love for heavens sakes. I guess you can take it to the extreme either way. Sigh. Too early in the morning. Sorry!
Just going by memory, the context with Eli's sons was stealing the tithes.
Rottie, you have brought up an interesting subject. This is just my take. If someone does something, but they say they're sorry, and they keep doing it, they're not really sorry.
I do think repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand.
You know the more I'm reading these posts and thinking, I think that sin is sin in the sense that it is ALL disobedience to God. But to say that murder/rape/mayhem, etc. is no different than stealing a cracker to God, is lunacy.
I think ALL sins can be forgiven, but there are very different consequences in this life, and perhaps the next as well.
And yeah, I think forgiveness is MORE than saying "sorry God, blew it, but ya know, you are such a pushover I KNOW I'm forgiven" which is the meaning that I get from some of these enlightened "teachings" that some of these christians teach.
I think that sin is sin in the sense that it is ALL disobedience to God. But to say that murder/rape/mayhem, etc. is no different than stealing a cracker to God, is lunacy.
The sin of stealing is no different than murder/rape/mayhem to God, because with God the sin of stealing (even a cracker) is just as big (not smaller) than murder/rape/mayhem, etc. There is no difference in sin to God, (although there is to men) because even a cracker stealer is just as repugnant to God as a murderer, rapist, etc.
The kind of thinking your talking about is essentially the foundation for, and the twisted logic and reason behind why lawmakers are passing laws and giving light and easy sentances to repeat offenders and hardened criminals. In court, a murderer can be sentanced to serve a lifetime or perhaps even be given two or more lifetime prison sentances, but in reality they end up only serving a couple years in prison and then are out on parole.
This is not really a topic or an issue where TWI failed. Doctrinally TWI was and is correct on the subject, but many people in TWI took their new life and grace and freedom they found in Christ as a license to sin. Now that "those people" are starting to find out by experience that God's grace is NOT a license to sin and there are still consequences to sin (and the "God's grace is a license to sin" idea never really worked out for them practically) they are blaming TWI for what they initially failed to recognize and put into practice for themselves. Here is an excerpt from: "The Life-style of a Believer" p.14 by: Victor P. Wierwille:
... The argument that man will sin, and that it is the duty of the state for its own sake and for the sake of the innocent third parties, and even for the offender's own sake, to take precautions so that as little evil may result as possible, is an erroneous concept of logic and is unethical. It is never the duty of the state to make the way of transgressors safe and easy. The action of every state, when it acts, must be to restrain and to punish, never to organize or license vice, or crime, and still less to derive a revenue from it on what they refer to as the grounds of expediency. Make punishment follow closely after the crime. Extended judgement in justice is usually fraught with error.
Not only do they take "God's grace as a license to sin" as an excuse to continue in sin, but they also take it and use it as an excuse for them to stop thinking.
Not thinking. Boy oh boy - that alone can lead someone into all sorts and kinds of trouble.
WhattheHey you bring up some interesting points. And I don't have time to write too much now, (at work) but it still seems to me that God certainly got ANGRIER at certain things more than He got at others. Like the flood, the angel of death, when the Hebrews built that golden calf, etc. So that makes some difference to Him it seems. At least in How He dealt with people. Hell, I'd rather take the punishment from God for stealing a cracker than doing something that would result in me being wiped out.
Do you think God does not forgive the devil because he has blackness in his heart (so to speal) He does not feel badly for what he has done, he has not changed his actions and he continues to hurt and cause pain.
Years ago there was a group handing out papers saying something about the day God forgives the devil will be the end of time or something. I do not see where that ever happens.
That is another thing that has baffeled me. Why can't the angels be forgiven? I know satan and his peons have done horrible things beyond even the most imagination, but why can God forgive humans and not them?
Does He know that satan will never be subserviant to God? Is it because the angels know what is going on in the spiritual realm and God gives us a break for being human and at the mercy of our 5 senses in this world?
Perhaps it would be wise to look at what Jesus Christ did in the gospels. He didn't forgive the Pharisees for their evil deeds he confronted them. He forgave the woman caught in adultry because she asked for forgiveness.
It's not all cut and dry as many have said but the point is you don't have to forgive those who willfully do evil. Where is there any profit to that. In fact that would be harmful to my heart.
In fact it's comforting to know that the Word says those who willfully do evil will recieve their due reward one day.
Forgiveness is a great topic, many different angles and views to it. I've enjoyed reading these posts!
Sin - it does have a bearing on forgiveness it seems, as the "sins" we commit in this life so very very often are towards one another.
Couple verses for bible fans, that I think could shed some light:
Romans 2:6 ...(God) "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:")
Gal. 6:7 ..."Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Soooo...here, and in other places, there's rendering and reaping, according to what a person does. And we don't all do the same things, of course.
Now, I'm thinking that when I do something wrong, bad, "sin", then what's really happening? Depends, doesn't it? On what it is I actually do. Just as with the good that I would do.
If I took something basic like the "10 commandments", I have things I should do and not do. A lie is one kind of thing, stealing another, murder another. I'm supposed to put God first, love God, so doing that is a good thing, not doing that is a bad thing, a "sin". But they're not all the same kind of thing, with the same kind of result. It would be safe to say I think that the rendering, the reaping from each would specifically be different.
I think they'd be the same in one way - that to do wrong or disobey any of them would be a "sin", they're all the same in that regard, they're all a "sin" if I don't do what's commanded.
They're all different though in that they deal with different things. One takes another's life, one takes another's belongings.
Stuff can be restored or replaced. Life can't. There's a big difference there.
So I don't think all sin can be viewed the same, in God's eyes anymore than it can be in our eyes. What is reaped from them is different. When we do the right thing, the reaping is different.
How that relates to forgiveness is significant in that we can see that God has forgiven all sin, through Christ. So all sins, whatever they're degree, can be forgiven through Christ.
But I don't think that means that all of the sins themselves are now the same. It means that they can all be forgiven through the effort of another, Christ. The mere fact it's not accomplished by human effort tells me that there are levels, as there are certainly some things that would be difficult to forgive, but others not. That range of forgiveness that we see is mind boggling I think because of that very thing.
(Note: I hate answering on forgiveness because I know I need to live up to what I say, and the challenge is right in my face.)
Forgiveness is what we do, it's the way we trust the situation to the Lord.
Forgiveness gives us strength to uproot the root of bitterness and other unsavory weeds from the garden of our soul.
Unforgiveness is a chief way satan takes advantage of us. The context of that pfle retemory verse, "Lest Satan should get advantage of us for we are not ignorant of his devices," is Forgiveness: (I Cor 2:7-11) "7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; 11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."
One cannot draw near to God and retain unforgiveness. (God is not like that. It's what Jesus did suffer and die for.)
There will be plenty of horror for those who do not repent -- the suffering they cause is nothing compared to what they will reap if they don't repent, but when we forgive, we at least will be free of Satan's charge, "you helped send him to Hell." Such charge we do not want laid at our feet. Unforgiveness and helping someone get to hell is a terrible charge of which to be found guilty before the Lord. (It's akin to kicking a man when he's down, which is not a good thing to do, even if you think it would feel good. Chickens do it, but Christians should not do so.)
As far as I can see, which isn't much I know, but I'll try anyway.....
Forgiveness from God, is a one-way deal. It's a gift we have in His Only Begotten. He gives it to us freely. I mean, do we have to forgive God or Jesus for anything?
Forgiveness of others, seems to be what we do with the gift that we have from Him. As others have pointed out, forgiveness is a gift we have, to do with what we please. We can be selfish with it, or not. Seems to me, God is vitally concerned with how we use this incredible, unspeakable reality that we have.
So I don't think all sin can be viewed the same, in God's eyes anymore than it can be in our eyes. What is reaped from them is different. When we do the right thing, the reaping is different.
I have always felt this way, there were some degrees of sin as well as punishment but had been taught sin is sin. I just did not believe it, I also believe sin is an issue of heart more than action --
What I mean, if I have a starving brother and I steal an orange to give him something to eat -- the action maybe sin but the heart may not be
But if I iron a shirt for you and scrub the floor to "manipulate" you into letting me drive your new car -- then my actions are not "sinful" but my heart is.
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Eyesopen
I know in the Ten Commandments God says, "Thou shalt not murder" He also says, "Thou shalt not steal" (nothing about crackers). But I strongly disagree with VP's interpretation that their are no degrees of sin (with the exception of the "unforgiveable sin"). In the New Testatment many "sins" are singled out as being something that God finds repulsive and murder is one of them. The emphasis in the NT on sin is "intent". In other words God does not condone stealing, but if a person is starving and steals a cracker then in some manner attempts to give reparation to the victim then God can forgive the sin. In that instance both non evil intent and repentence are evident. It is available for a murderer to gain His forgiveness, but it would require true repentence and I think that part of that would be honest attempt at reparation with the living victims. I don't personally feel that a trip to the confessional and 12 Our Fathers or 10 Hail Mary's would cover it.
For our part we are human so forgiveness is difficult for us. But if we put on the mind of Christ...
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JumpinJive
I've heard folks from TWI teach that 'sin-is-sin' doctrine. That's kind of how they justified the totality of grace over works and once-saved-always saved, to the point they believed that even murders can't be kept out of heaven if they are truly born again. (I'm not sure I believe that, but that's another thread.)
I've mostly understood forgiveness (as well as confession) as something more of benefit to believers than to God. Getting wrapped up in someone else's past offenses against you can lead to a host of negative emotional baggage. Better to let it go than be sucked into it. As for the perpetrator, I can't see my forgiveness meaning very much to them unless they are truly repentant. In that case, forgiveness might be able to relieve some guilt and shame and that makes everybody's life a little better.
But I see that as mostly involving emotional hurts. How God's forgiveness works in more serious matters is quite beyond me. I don't give a lot of thought to the plight of captured serial killers but it seems to me the only forgiveness that should really matter to them is God's. God's decision is the one that might allow them life after their current walk on earth, not mine.
-JJ
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sirguessalot
hi Rottie
long time no jibber jab
pardon my assumptions
what i write here is perhaps one of the hardest kinds of things i have ever found to say
but i think that...until we can find a way to forgive even the devil
we must also somehow find a way to forgive our selves for that
tho ultimately, that line between self and other is an arbitrary one, anyway
im sure there are many many who what where when whys and hows on the path of forgiveness
but the wilderness is more messy and more complicated than we are often comfortable with
it helps to have a reliable compass ...a map ...a pencil ...such things
and perhaps some extra shoes for the long journey
cuz not only does it all come up in the end of life anyway
but we pass on some sense our unresolved incapacities to forgive, somehow
all of it
all of it
all of it
somehow
in all of our many cults and cultures and tribes
all our modern wars are mostly legacies of revenge that are thousands and thousands of years in making
so its not hard to see how important it is to find a way forgive whatever and however we can
not just for our sake, but for all of our sake
not something we can force through, either
nor can we avoid it
though i think questions take us farther than answers
and soft answers serve better than hard answers when in a circle of friends
such as...what is the subject of forgiveness?
the object of it?
is it a body thing?
a mind thing?
a heart thing?
if all of it gets burnt anyway
maybe its a fire thing
after all...god is god as god as fire is fire
whether heaven or hell are hot or cold
quite depends on whose asking and whose being asked
i am sure us big-bang-believers will have to somehow have to forgive the big bang for the way it keeps on banging and banging
just as we all have to somehow find a way to forgive the myths and legends for being myths and legends
and too...i find it helps to keep in mind how forgiveness is only one type of spiritual pain, anyway
i would even go as far as to call it an important leg of an important table, if you will
hell...i dunno what to say, Rot
i sometimes feel like i write like Woody Allen rambles
maybe its my jewish foot or something
peace
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RottieGrrrl
I just want to jump in here real quick and thank you both for your answers. I am reading them, and re-reading them and I think you both make some excellent points. This is something I have a super hard time with, and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't go along with, or has a hard time with, the "sin is sin" no matter what it is. I could add more but I don't want to ramble and I am still pondering the posts.
ooh, got another post while i was posting! Cool! going back to read it now.
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year2027
God first
Beloved RottieGrrrl
God loves you my dear friend
you question "Can someone explain to me Forgiveness?"
I can only tell you the part I see right now
there is a differ from forgiving and forgeting
while forgiving helps us deal with things other did we do not have to forget
what changes is how we deal with that person
while we learn not to push that in the person face we know to watch out for that person and be careful
the saying sin is sin I believe to be true but all sin most be paid for in two ways
while Jesus Christ die for all sins paying for them by giving up his life -- Christ only paid the spiritual payment
but there is still fleshly payment to pay fear of going to jail, guilt and so on
just because we forgive a person that does not make things the same
trust must be rebuilt in the two-three-four and so on people
who did the sin at times must come out in the open
Jesus Christ does not hide a person who did a crime but he helps them changed so it will not be done again if they ask in love and truth
I have forgiven the devil, even the Way Ministry cult but I still warn others about the Way Ministry cult and the devil
I hope this helps it were I see it this second
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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lindyhopper
You know Rottie, there was all this hub-bub over this Mystery thing on Oprah that I decided to watch it. I wasn't all that impressed but one thing on forgiveness did click for me.
You know the old saying "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger." Isn't that a good thing? In that show one of the people talked about getting to a place were you realise what you have learned from bad situtations and bad things people did to you, to the end that those events don't have control over you in some way, is the point in which you can forgive. At that point, you can say to that person (in your own head if you like) "thank you for helping me learn ________", "thank you for making me stronger in __________ area of my life....but you no longer have a hold on me."
It helps us realise what we have learned, what we have gained (even if we have lost a lot), and why we are now better off....while at the same time not letting go of accountability, not letting them off the hook, but not holding the hook either.
I liked that. It makes sense to me and helped me realise why I have been able to move on....becuase I have always had that mind set (what doesn't kill you...) for the most part.
I guess the hard part of that is realising what we have learned and gained from the most horrific trauma or something much less, and coming to accept that and moving on with that new knowledge and strength in a better way instead of allowing it to hold us back.
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RottieGrrrl
Thank you all for your posts. I am thankful that I never had anything horrific happen to me at the hands of another human being where I would have to personally deal with that. Can you imagine? Gads. But I guess forgiveness is important, as previous posters said, because otherswise these people have a hold over your life. Many times people eat themselves away at hating someone while that person goes on merrily with their life. I'm still pondering the posts and these thoughts so thanks all.
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Lori
I remember reading "their sin was great" talking about Eli's sons...............and somehow I'm thinking there has got to be degrees of sin.
And this is where I think twi could have taught us better...
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RottieGrrrl
hmmm. I will have to look that up. Thanks.
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JumpinJive
It would be a pretty big study, but don't the OT laws have different levels of punishment associated with non-compliance? I mean, you didn't get stoned for everything, right?
-JJ
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RottieGrrrl
Yeah well that's another point. Under our law we have different levels too right? I mean if sin is sin no matter what, (which I should point out that I know many other Christian groups preach too) than why don't we give people who steal pencils from work the death penalty.
Oh, I know I'm getting weird, but obviously we recognize that there certainly are different consequences for different actions. I'd rather have someone steal 5 dollars from my purse than murder me, or someone I love for heavens sakes. I guess you can take it to the extreme either way. Sigh. Too early in the morning. Sorry!
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Lori
Just going by memory, the context with Eli's sons was stealing the tithes.
Rottie, you have brought up an interesting subject. This is just my take. If someone does something, but they say they're sorry, and they keep doing it, they're not really sorry.
I do think repentance and forgiveness go hand in hand.
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cman
i can't help but remember this song
thinkin of forgiveness
a break through when forgiveness is real
as anyone could tell you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlTHlhz1LJA
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RottieGrrrl
You know the more I'm reading these posts and thinking, I think that sin is sin in the sense that it is ALL disobedience to God. But to say that murder/rape/mayhem, etc. is no different than stealing a cracker to God, is lunacy.
I think ALL sins can be forgiven, but there are very different consequences in this life, and perhaps the next as well.
And yeah, I think forgiveness is MORE than saying "sorry God, blew it, but ya know, you are such a pushover I KNOW I'm forgiven" which is the meaning that I get from some of these enlightened "teachings" that some of these christians teach.
hmmm.
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cman
Forgiveness.......
It is the vengeance of our God...His Wrath...the Fire that burns within
It will take no prisoners and free the enslaved from themselves
it Will work it's work in due time for all
from the chief forgiver
Christ Himself that is within
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What The Hey
The sin of stealing is no different than murder/rape/mayhem to God, because with God the sin of stealing (even a cracker) is just as big (not smaller) than murder/rape/mayhem, etc. There is no difference in sin to God, (although there is to men) because even a cracker stealer is just as repugnant to God as a murderer, rapist, etc.
The kind of thinking your talking about is essentially the foundation for, and the twisted logic and reason behind why lawmakers are passing laws and giving light and easy sentances to repeat offenders and hardened criminals. In court, a murderer can be sentanced to serve a lifetime or perhaps even be given two or more lifetime prison sentances, but in reality they end up only serving a couple years in prison and then are out on parole.
This is not really a topic or an issue where TWI failed. Doctrinally TWI was and is correct on the subject, but many people in TWI took their new life and grace and freedom they found in Christ as a license to sin. Now that "those people" are starting to find out by experience that God's grace is NOT a license to sin and there are still consequences to sin (and the "God's grace is a license to sin" idea never really worked out for them practically) they are blaming TWI for what they initially failed to recognize and put into practice for themselves. Here is an excerpt from: "The Life-style of a Believer" p.14 by: Victor P. Wierwille:
... The argument that man will sin, and that it is the duty of the state for its own sake and for the sake of the innocent third parties, and even for the offender's own sake, to take precautions so that as little evil may result as possible, is an erroneous concept of logic and is unethical. It is never the duty of the state to make the way of transgressors safe and easy. The action of every state, when it acts, must be to restrain and to punish, never to organize or license vice, or crime, and still less to derive a revenue from it on what they refer to as the grounds of expediency. Make punishment follow closely after the crime. Extended judgement in justice is usually fraught with error.
Not only do they take "God's grace as a license to sin" as an excuse to continue in sin, but they also take it and use it as an excuse for them to stop thinking.
Not thinking. Boy oh boy - that alone can lead someone into all sorts and kinds of trouble.
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RottieGrrrl
WhattheHey you bring up some interesting points. And I don't have time to write too much now, (at work) but it still seems to me that God certainly got ANGRIER at certain things more than He got at others. Like the flood, the angel of death, when the Hebrews built that golden calf, etc. So that makes some difference to Him it seems. At least in How He dealt with people. Hell, I'd rather take the punishment from God for stealing a cracker than doing something that would result in me being wiped out.
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Dot Matrix
Reading the opening post-
Do you think God does not forgive the devil because he has blackness in his heart (so to speal) He does not feel badly for what he has done, he has not changed his actions and he continues to hurt and cause pain.
Years ago there was a group handing out papers saying something about the day God forgives the devil will be the end of time or something. I do not see where that ever happens.
Rottie - I have missed you
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RottieGrrrl
Thanks Dots!
That is another thing that has baffeled me. Why can't the angels be forgiven? I know satan and his peons have done horrible things beyond even the most imagination, but why can God forgive humans and not them?
Does He know that satan will never be subserviant to God? Is it because the angels know what is going on in the spiritual realm and God gives us a break for being human and at the mercy of our 5 senses in this world?
Sigh. Some things get so deeeeeeeeeep.
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polar bear
Perhaps it would be wise to look at what Jesus Christ did in the gospels. He didn't forgive the Pharisees for their evil deeds he confronted them. He forgave the woman caught in adultry because she asked for forgiveness.
It's not all cut and dry as many have said but the point is you don't have to forgive those who willfully do evil. Where is there any profit to that. In fact that would be harmful to my heart.
In fact it's comforting to know that the Word says those who willfully do evil will recieve their due reward one day.
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socks
Hi Rottiegrrl!
Forgiveness is a great topic, many different angles and views to it. I've enjoyed reading these posts!
Sin - it does have a bearing on forgiveness it seems, as the "sins" we commit in this life so very very often are towards one another.
Couple verses for bible fans, that I think could shed some light:
Romans 2:6 ...(God) "Who will render to every man according to his deeds:")
Gal. 6:7 ..."Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
Soooo...here, and in other places, there's rendering and reaping, according to what a person does. And we don't all do the same things, of course.
Now, I'm thinking that when I do something wrong, bad, "sin", then what's really happening? Depends, doesn't it? On what it is I actually do. Just as with the good that I would do.
If I took something basic like the "10 commandments", I have things I should do and not do. A lie is one kind of thing, stealing another, murder another. I'm supposed to put God first, love God, so doing that is a good thing, not doing that is a bad thing, a "sin". But they're not all the same kind of thing, with the same kind of result. It would be safe to say I think that the rendering, the reaping from each would specifically be different.
I think they'd be the same in one way - that to do wrong or disobey any of them would be a "sin", they're all the same in that regard, they're all a "sin" if I don't do what's commanded.
They're all different though in that they deal with different things. One takes another's life, one takes another's belongings.
Stuff can be restored or replaced. Life can't. There's a big difference there.
So I don't think all sin can be viewed the same, in God's eyes anymore than it can be in our eyes. What is reaped from them is different. When we do the right thing, the reaping is different.
How that relates to forgiveness is significant in that we can see that God has forgiven all sin, through Christ. So all sins, whatever they're degree, can be forgiven through Christ.
But I don't think that means that all of the sins themselves are now the same. It means that they can all be forgiven through the effort of another, Christ. The mere fact it's not accomplished by human effort tells me that there are levels, as there are certainly some things that would be difficult to forgive, but others not. That range of forgiveness that we see is mind boggling I think because of that very thing.
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Kit Sober
(Note: I hate answering on forgiveness because I know I need to live up to what I say, and the challenge is right in my face.)
Forgiveness is what we do, it's the way we trust the situation to the Lord.
Forgiveness gives us strength to uproot the root of bitterness and other unsavory weeds from the garden of our soul.
Unforgiveness is a chief way satan takes advantage of us. The context of that pfle retemory verse, "Lest Satan should get advantage of us for we are not ignorant of his devices," is Forgiveness: (I Cor 2:7-11) "7So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. 8Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him. 9For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 10To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ; 11Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices."
One cannot draw near to God and retain unforgiveness. (God is not like that. It's what Jesus did suffer and die for.)
There will be plenty of horror for those who do not repent -- the suffering they cause is nothing compared to what they will reap if they don't repent, but when we forgive, we at least will be free of Satan's charge, "you helped send him to Hell." Such charge we do not want laid at our feet. Unforgiveness and helping someone get to hell is a terrible charge of which to be found guilty before the Lord. (It's akin to kicking a man when he's down, which is not a good thing to do, even if you think it would feel good. Chickens do it, but Christians should not do so.)
Hoping for strength to forgive,
Edited by Kit SoberLink to comment
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ex10
As far as I can see, which isn't much I know, but I'll try anyway.....
Forgiveness from God, is a one-way deal. It's a gift we have in His Only Begotten. He gives it to us freely. I mean, do we have to forgive God or Jesus for anything?
Forgiveness of others, seems to be what we do with the gift that we have from Him. As others have pointed out, forgiveness is a gift we have, to do with what we please. We can be selfish with it, or not. Seems to me, God is vitally concerned with how we use this incredible, unspeakable reality that we have.
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Dot Matrix
Socks
Your post has left me wanting more.
It is mind boggling
This line here has me really plugged in:
I have always felt this way, there were some degrees of sin as well as punishment but had been taught sin is sin. I just did not believe it, I also believe sin is an issue of heart more than action --
What I mean, if I have a starving brother and I steal an orange to give him something to eat -- the action maybe sin but the heart may not be
But if I iron a shirt for you and scrub the floor to "manipulate" you into letting me drive your new car -- then my actions are not "sinful" but my heart is.
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