yes I believed alot of it, most of it, especially the great news about the Cross and Resurrection (never had really heard it before). Knew that certain things were bogus, knew that not everyone was sincere, never thought we had some kind of unique hook up with the Creator.Believed in the gifts and still do. Did not beleive that the organization would last, I could see it would not. Four crucified? Peter denied Christ how many times? Faith vs believing and all those similar doctrines to me were silly nit-picking. Where was the real power and the holiness? absent. Thats why I left, but have never been sorry I was "in"....
Weirwille betrayed us, & he did it with malice & forethought.
That's supposed to be an original thought? People said the exact same thing of Moses. When he parted the Red sea so they could escape from the Egyptians they were thankful for him and were even praising him. The next day the exact same people were grumbling, complaining and even conspiring against him.
One can easily put just about anybody's name (or any system for that matter) in the above phrase one had put all their trust in - and then they feel that person or that system let them down. It only goes to prove that people really haven't changed too much - even after thousands and thousands of years of their so-called spiritual enlightenment.
My own experience in ministry, not limited to TWI, shows me just how easy it is to be overcome by the power that leadership gives. It is very intoxicating, to say the least.
There was just so much to TWI that it seems that a lot of contributors to these forums either never knew of, experienced, or whatever that were really unnecessary components of a culture designed by malace of forethought to simply control & manipulate people.
For example, "Let's use my custom corporate jet to fly folk in (for free) to HQ, put them up for the weekend (for free) show them all the best of the ministry life here, send staffers out to their area to share a piece of HQ w/ them there, etc.... Just so I can get a piece of trim from somebody's hot wife." ???
I don't think so.
Many have done more evil w/ far less stuff.
I believe that VPW gave in to his weaknesses, as the scriptures say, was "...drawn away by his own lusts...." The same type of lusts eveyone has. He just didn't keep his under wraps as he should & could have done.
We all, perhaps, wish he was the man he knew to be.
There is tons of discussion on that very subject here at GSC. You will need to look at some of the tutorials here that show how to navigate around GSC in order to find them. I am not at all skilled in getting from point"a" to point "b" much less show someone else. I personally have found it to be a great way to clear my head, relax and refocus. It gets a bit dicier when the discussion moves into the doctrinal realm.
That's supposed to be an original thought? People said the exact same thing of Moses. When he parted the Red sea so they could escape from the Egyptians they were thankful for him and were even praising him. The next day the exact same people were grumbling, complaining and even conspiring against him.
One can easily put just about anybody's name (or any system for that matter) in the above phrase one had put all their trust in - and then they feel that person or that system let them down. It only goes to prove that people really haven't changed too much - even after thousands and thousands of years of their so-called spiritual enlightenment.
Don't know how you got any idea that vpw ever even got close to Moses in anything.
Nor did Moses do the crap that vpw did to his people that were in his care.
Consider thinking of the mathematical and scientific way he seduced everyone in pfal.
I was in from 79-82...probably one of the better times. I really liked the folks involved, (Which is why I hang out here), but I always had issues with some of the odd teachingsand the strong insistance that it was correct. I quickly found out that keeping these thoughts to myself was best, but dep doun I wondered if everyone felt this way, but feared yelling "The king has no clothing!"
In all honesty...I'm a bit flabbergasted at the number of true believers. I kinda' figured I was pretty regular.
Of course, the dictionary version is easy to find and understand but I suspect we are talking about the meaning that The Way gave to the term.
When I was involved, it meant you could literally visualize something into or out of existance. There are a few problems with this concept.
1.) IT DOESN'T WORK!
2.) How can you really know that what you are "believing" for fits the master plan? Example: I'm "believing" for rain, someone else is "believing" for sunshine.
3.)Thinking about something , visualizing something, ergo "believing" for something won't change what is to be one iota, unless, of course, your thinking of that particular item prompts you to take some sort of action. Example: You are "believing" for better grades in school. Well, picture yourself walking across the stage to give the valedictorian speech if it makes you happy but unless you crack the books, there may be some disappointment lurking around the corner.
Fear did not kill that little boy. If anything, his mothers' parental concern may have prompted an attitude and practise of caution that safeguarded him from earlier tragedy.
Red drapes? Please show me the scripture that says we can tell God how to do his job. Maybe there was an apartment twice as nice with green drapes.
Oh, and did I mention?--IT DOESN'T WORK!
What is "the secret"? It's that there is no secret.
waysider says: "Red drapes? Please show me the scripture that says we can tell God how to do his job. Maybe there was an apartment twice as nice with green drapes."
waysider, My mother just told me that story about and apartment and red drapes a few months ago when I was having troubles. I pointed out to my wife what you wrote and she informed me that it was part of PFAL. (I took PFAL when I was twelve put I don't remember much). I honestly thought my mother knew the lady and that was some "victory sharing" that happened recently.
lol - I'm a fool
(or has my confession made me a fool?)
I just could never line up what was taught about believing with what is practiced. The best definition I know of is the song "believing is acting on the Word", which implies that God and the Bible are involved. But I can never seem to see chapter and verse when some says they're believing for something, or when I've been ordered to believe for something, or someone says they're believing with me, or someone "brings believing to the table", or "has a longsuit in believing".
Worst part is nobody seamed to really care to explain it to me. Even after the "walk of believing" theme. I keep getting referred to the blue book, but that is written like my grandmother talks. Maybe it'll all make sense when I'm 70. Perhaps it's my believing that keeps me from understanding believing.
"Perhaps it's my believing that keeps me from understanding believing."
Nah! It's probably common sense that's in line to take credit.
"The Law Of Believing"( Which is,in fact, not a law in the first place) is really just hocus pocus with Gods' name conveniently attached to add some semblence of credibility.
There's nothing inherently wrong with having a positive outlook or being specific about goals you wish to achieve. Thinking you can evoke some sort of magic power by visualizing something or ignoring real obstacles is foolhearty at best, though.
Only when your thoughts and visions lead to some outward action( or inaction) will they play a real role in their outcome.
I mean, I believe in Jesus Christ, (I also believe in Budda), but did you really swallow PFAL hook line & sinker, or was there always doubt, in the back of your mind?
I think I felt a bit taken at the conclusion of "The Class", but I hung in there for a while (three years '80-82) as some of the teaching interested me. I liked the practice (And still do ), of praying for people right there to their face. I liked the small intimate twig meetings, where you felt the, "Family like" spiritual community.
On the down side, I felt the scholarship was shoddy, and I disliked the overbearing attitude of some of the "Leadership". There was no doubt in my young mind that this was NOT "The greatest teaching of The Word since Jesus Christ".
To this day I have a saying, "Anything for sale ain't spiritual, and anything spititual aint for sale". If they demand I pull out my wallet to share spiritual ideas, I hit the door. Everytime.
I loved pfal. It taught me so much about the scriptures and God's love for us. I did and still do believe. The second class, which I'm guessing you were not involved in, The Way of Abundance and Power was equally good, but different.
I think that having our needs and wants parallel is important to know, plus Knowing that God's willingness equals His ability.
I'm just now starting to realize that you were only involved in the Way for a short time. You were never there during LCM reign.
Your sad reference to "hook, line, and sinker" does indeed refere to being dupped. I guess you were. I was not.
You may have thought that all this stuff was bogus in the back of your mind, but for me, it was THE LIVING, BREATHING WORD. And the principles taught to me, were goodly, and Godly.
"Perhaps it's my believing that keeps me from understanding believing."
Nah! It's probably common sense that's in line to take credit.
"The Law Of Believing"( Which is,in fact, not a law in the first place) is really just hocus pocus with Gods' name conveniently attached to add some semblence of credibility.
There's nothing inherently wrong with having a positive outlook or being specific about goals you wish to achieve. Thinking you can evoke some sort of magic power by visualizing something or ignoring real obstacles is foolhearty at best, though.
Only when your thoughts and visions lead to some outward action( or inaction) will they play a real role in their outcome.
Nostrovia!
Waysider,
Now I see that the Way taught differently to different people at different times. I did not get taught that I could believe for magical items to appear. It sounds like you were.
Believing, how I understood it, is "positive action". To postively claim God's promises in His Word, to act on the belief that the Word is True: to confess positively.
Foot_on_a_rock, actually I wanted badly to really believe, but there were too many inconsistancies, too much fluff and not enough substance for me to take it, "Hook, line & sinker". I tried, I really did, but when I questioned teachings, nicely, with scolarly work , and was rebuked, I realised they knew it was wrong and chose to keep the wrong teaching. At first I was welcomed, & encouraged, used as a positive example. Once I questioned I was cast aside and whispered about. It was then I first heard the term "Greasespot".
With TWI you are either "On the bus or "Off the bus", there is little room for thoughtful people, and eventually that is made clear.
I remember before I left, (not too long ago) there was much talk in meetings about speaking things into being. Verses used were when GOD spoke things into being. The picture I was getting was to grow in your believing to speak things into being. (my mind really fights that one, I wish I hadn't tuned out so I could be more specific about the logic about that now) Believing is a very slippery concept.
Dear Bolveshik and Foot on the Rock, Welcome to Greasespot Cafe. Take your shoes off, sit down at the bar. My name is Thomas and I am your matre'de. Raf will be your waiter for today and Mr. Ham
will get your drinks. May I suggest the mint julep and Lexington NC barbeque with bannana pudding as desert? :D
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mdsnpp
yes I believed alot of it, most of it, especially the great news about the Cross and Resurrection (never had really heard it before). Knew that certain things were bogus, knew that not everyone was sincere, never thought we had some kind of unique hook up with the Creator.Believed in the gifts and still do. Did not beleive that the organization would last, I could see it would not. Four crucified? Peter denied Christ how many times? Faith vs believing and all those similar doctrines to me were silly nit-picking. Where was the real power and the holiness? absent. Thats why I left, but have never been sorry I was "in"....
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What The Hey
That's supposed to be an original thought? People said the exact same thing of Moses. When he parted the Red sea so they could escape from the Egyptians they were thankful for him and were even praising him. The next day the exact same people were grumbling, complaining and even conspiring against him.
One can easily put just about anybody's name (or any system for that matter) in the above phrase one had put all their trust in - and then they feel that person or that system let them down. It only goes to prove that people really haven't changed too much - even after thousands and thousands of years of their so-called spiritual enlightenment.
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HCW
I looked at the whole thing w/ an, "OK, prove it," POV.
I never bit on the whole thing hook line & sinker. But I did buy into the concepts that I felt were worth persuing.
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HCW
Malace and forethought.
I don't think so.
I'm thinking that power corrupts.
My own experience in ministry, not limited to TWI, shows me just how easy it is to be overcome by the power that leadership gives. It is very intoxicating, to say the least.
There was just so much to TWI that it seems that a lot of contributors to these forums either never knew of, experienced, or whatever that were really unnecessary components of a culture designed by malace of forethought to simply control & manipulate people.
For example, "Let's use my custom corporate jet to fly folk in (for free) to HQ, put them up for the weekend (for free) show them all the best of the ministry life here, send staffers out to their area to share a piece of HQ w/ them there, etc.... Just so I can get a piece of trim from somebody's hot wife." ???
I don't think so.
Many have done more evil w/ far less stuff.
I believe that VPW gave in to his weaknesses, as the scriptures say, was "...drawn away by his own lusts...." The same type of lusts eveyone has. He just didn't keep his under wraps as he should & could have done.
We all, perhaps, wish he was the man he knew to be.
(Or did he plagurize that as well?)
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Dot Matrix
I believed
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Mr Incredible
I seem to fall into the 'I belived' category too...
Although I must say I still believe in 'speaking in tongues' simply because I can validate it via the Word in 1st Corinthians.
Now, whether or not it was taught properly to be used or manifested properly, the jury remains out on that one --
any thoughts?
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waysider
Michael B.
There is tons of discussion on that very subject here at GSC. You will need to look at some of the tutorials here that show how to navigate around GSC in order to find them. I am not at all skilled in getting from point"a" to point "b" much less show someone else. I personally have found it to be a great way to clear my head, relax and refocus. It gets a bit dicier when the discussion moves into the doctrinal realm.
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cman
Don't know how you got any idea that vpw ever even got close to Moses in anything.
Nor did Moses do the crap that vpw did to his people that were in his care.
Consider thinking of the mathematical and scientific way he seduced everyone in pfal.
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tFloat
no
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likeaneagle
Yes
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Wanderer
I was in from 79-82...probably one of the better times. I really liked the folks involved, (Which is why I hang out here), but I always had issues with some of the odd teachingsand the strong insistance that it was correct. I quickly found out that keeping these thoughts to myself was best, but dep doun I wondered if everyone felt this way, but feared yelling "The king has no clothing!"
In all honesty...I'm a bit flabbergasted at the number of true believers. I kinda' figured I was pretty regular.
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Bolshevik
I was born and raised by long-standing advanced class grads.
For over two and a half decades I've had a troubling question.
What exactly is believing?
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waysider
Bolshevic asks, "What exactly is 'believing'?"
Of course, the dictionary version is easy to find and understand but I suspect we are talking about the meaning that The Way gave to the term.
When I was involved, it meant you could literally visualize something into or out of existance. There are a few problems with this concept.
1.) IT DOESN'T WORK!
2.) How can you really know that what you are "believing" for fits the master plan? Example: I'm "believing" for rain, someone else is "believing" for sunshine.
3.)Thinking about something , visualizing something, ergo "believing" for something won't change what is to be one iota, unless, of course, your thinking of that particular item prompts you to take some sort of action. Example: You are "believing" for better grades in school. Well, picture yourself walking across the stage to give the valedictorian speech if it makes you happy but unless you crack the books, there may be some disappointment lurking around the corner.
Fear did not kill that little boy. If anything, his mothers' parental concern may have prompted an attitude and practise of caution that safeguarded him from earlier tragedy.
Red drapes? Please show me the scripture that says we can tell God how to do his job. Maybe there was an apartment twice as nice with green drapes.
Oh, and did I mention?--IT DOESN'T WORK!
What is "the secret"? It's that there is no secret.
SHHH! don't tell them. Then it won't be a secret.
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Bolshevik
waysider says: "Red drapes? Please show me the scripture that says we can tell God how to do his job. Maybe there was an apartment twice as nice with green drapes."
waysider, My mother just told me that story about and apartment and red drapes a few months ago when I was having troubles. I pointed out to my wife what you wrote and she informed me that it was part of PFAL. (I took PFAL when I was twelve put I don't remember much). I honestly thought my mother knew the lady and that was some "victory sharing" that happened recently.
lol - I'm a fool
(or has my confession made me a fool?)
I just could never line up what was taught about believing with what is practiced. The best definition I know of is the song "believing is acting on the Word", which implies that God and the Bible are involved. But I can never seem to see chapter and verse when some says they're believing for something, or when I've been ordered to believe for something, or someone says they're believing with me, or someone "brings believing to the table", or "has a longsuit in believing".
Worst part is nobody seamed to really care to explain it to me. Even after the "walk of believing" theme. I keep getting referred to the blue book, but that is written like my grandmother talks. Maybe it'll all make sense when I'm 70. Perhaps it's my believing that keeps me from understanding believing.
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waysider
"Perhaps it's my believing that keeps me from understanding believing."
Nah! It's probably common sense that's in line to take credit.
"The Law Of Believing"( Which is,in fact, not a law in the first place) is really just hocus pocus with Gods' name conveniently attached to add some semblence of credibility.
There's nothing inherently wrong with having a positive outlook or being specific about goals you wish to achieve. Thinking you can evoke some sort of magic power by visualizing something or ignoring real obstacles is foolhearty at best, though.
Only when your thoughts and visions lead to some outward action( or inaction) will they play a real role in their outcome.
Nostrovia!
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Foot_on_a_rock
I loved pfal. It taught me so much about the scriptures and God's love for us. I did and still do believe. The second class, which I'm guessing you were not involved in, The Way of Abundance and Power was equally good, but different.
I think that having our needs and wants parallel is important to know, plus Knowing that God's willingness equals His ability.
I'm just now starting to realize that you were only involved in the Way for a short time. You were never there during LCM reign.
Your sad reference to "hook, line, and sinker" does indeed refere to being dupped. I guess you were. I was not.
You may have thought that all this stuff was bogus in the back of your mind, but for me, it was THE LIVING, BREATHING WORD. And the principles taught to me, were goodly, and Godly.
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Foot_on_a_rock
Waysider,
Now I see that the Way taught differently to different people at different times. I did not get taught that I could believe for magical items to appear. It sounds like you were.
Believing, how I understood it, is "positive action". To postively claim God's promises in His Word, to act on the belief that the Word is True: to confess positively.
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coolchef
dear foot
methinks you had/have your foot on a slippery rock, please piffel, sure it taught most of us some good stuff but please it more erros than anything.
like a foot in a glove
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Wanderer
Foot_on_a_rock, actually I wanted badly to really believe, but there were too many inconsistancies, too much fluff and not enough substance for me to take it, "Hook, line & sinker". I tried, I really did, but when I questioned teachings, nicely, with scolarly work , and was rebuked, I realised they knew it was wrong and chose to keep the wrong teaching. At first I was welcomed, & encouraged, used as a positive example. Once I questioned I was cast aside and whispered about. It was then I first heard the term "Greasespot".
With TWI you are either "On the bus or "Off the bus", there is little room for thoughtful people, and eventually that is made clear.
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Ham
Yeah, but with Kesey, if you were "off the bus" that generally meant you ended up in a psychiatric ward somewhere..
well, the similarity is striking..
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Bolshevik
I remember before I left, (not too long ago) there was much talk in meetings about speaking things into being. Verses used were when GOD spoke things into being. The picture I was getting was to grow in your believing to speak things into being. (my mind really fights that one, I wish I hadn't tuned out so I could be more specific about the logic about that now) Believing is a very slippery concept.
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Ham
Very slippery. Seems every (?) religion shares this core belief of sorts..
speak "THE WORDS" with the right kind of mind set or motivation, and the heavens and the foundation of the earth is supposed to shake..
Those who dabble in practical kabbalism make the same claim.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Dear Bolveshik and Foot on the Rock, Welcome to Greasespot Cafe. Take your shoes off, sit down at the bar. My name is Thomas and I am your matre'de. Raf will be your waiter for today and Mr. Ham
will get your drinks. May I suggest the mint julep and Lexington NC barbeque with bannana pudding as desert? :D
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Bolshevik
I believe I could try someting new. I'm hungry anyway.
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