I doubt the Church has a record kept of how many times you've confessed to having an impure thought, as even with today's technology, space is an issue.
And if they did, I suspect there's a priest who's got them stashed under his bed for personal review.
You're taking this to another place, one that is of no interest to me at all.
What I'm talking about - and let's not push this into a flagrant attempt to amp up my statements to include Hitler, Communisum or fetuses, 'kay? -
Are two simple things - privacy, the common sense protection of one's personal information
And evaulating the real worth of doing what you suggest.
In the linked document you gave, it stated
7. It remains clear, in any event, that the sacramental bond of belonging to the Body of Christ that is the Church, conferred by the baptismal character, is an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection.
Which begs the question - if the Church continues to entertain a reality that recognizes the essence of baptism establishing an ontological and permanent bond which is not lost by reason of any act or fact of defection
- why bother? What does it really accomplish? As a personal statement there could be some value - I would weigh in against it if it requires -
The publication of personal information about myself and my family in order to establish the validity of my claim to defect.
There's no conspiritorial aspect to protecting one's own personal data. Deliberately putting it into the hands of strangers, and in your scenario of submission - strangers who the person considers it necessary to sever relations formally with -
Makes no sense to me.
Give people you disagree with, strongly, and who you don't trust - personal information about yourself, who you are, where you are, as well as your family...
I can't be the only person who sees an incredible dichotomy there, a conflict of interests.
Or maybe I am. But I simply don't see how a person who feels this way would do this -
And yes, given the record of the R.C.C. there's no way I'd do it or advise anyone to do it, which is why I'm weighing in. I'd suggest the same for any situation that had similar inherent conflicts, and in general suggest that people use wisdom with anyone when sharing their personal information and data.
No problem...
My only thought in starting this thread was that there are a few people who are so disgusted with the Catholic Church that it would psychologically concern them that the Catholic Church still considered them Catholic. I was attempting to provide them a mechanism by which they could formally separate themselves from the Church.
Somebody wants to do so, great. Somebody doesn't want to do so, that's fine too.
When it starts descending into that eviiiiiiillllll global Catholic Cabal (where the Catholics, Freemasons, and Communists are working together to take over the world), I have to start laughing and point it out. And with your comments and Satori's comments, it looked like the thread was going in that direction.
But, darn it, some of those Jack Chick cartoons are FUNNY!
Kathy, I get where you are coming from. I too grow tired of seeing every thread Mark starts that has anything to do with his religion getting trashed. BUT, Mark is a big boy and he already knows what is coming, before he ever starts the thread.
AND if you follow your logic through, then anytime we trash someone's political ideology, we trash the person. Everytime we trash the teachings of TWI, we are trashing a person - because there are people here who still hold to his teachings.
There is a difference between arguing the merits of a religion, a doctrine, a political opinion, etc. and personally attacking an individual.
I suspect one of the reasons it seems so much like Mark is being trashed personally is because there are so very few who are Catholic here or who speak up positively regarding Catholocism. I have felt the same way sometimes regarding Oldiesman - that he was being attacked personally, even when he wasn't, because his religious views were being attacked.
Thanks for the backup, Abi.
And, as I said to Satori, I know full well what will happen if I post anything non-negative about the Catholic Church on GSC...there will be trolls coming out from all the woodwork. That's fine. If I couldn't handle it then none of you would ever know that I was Catholic.
Abi, then that makes my heart smile actually and let's not take you were you haven't gone on you own. (typing with one hand while other is holding phone with doctor, so this is short it reply)
i don't remember feeling angry when saying "i do" to the questions. to me it was just a ritual. and my parents and in-laws didn't force us to do anything. we did it because we love them and knew how much they would worry if their grandbaby wasn't baptized in the catholic church. got married in the catholic church too.
anyway, i don't feel any desire to send in a paper to the church. once a catholic always a catholic, it's sorta like being irish
Mark, I honestly can't imagine anyone being so concerned about this that they'd feel the need to put it in writing. I am probably (on some old, musty piece of paper somewhere) still considered a member of the United Church of Christ. I left because (at that time...dunno about now) the sermons were boring, it seemed to be just a social thing, and I wasn't learning much or enjoying my time there. I rarely even think about having been a member of that church; in fact, I hadn't thought about it until you started this thread. I don't feel psychologically troubled by not making my departure "official" or formal.
You are a good example of exactly what Mark had in mind, if I understand him correctly, because this is the first time I have even seen you mention your former church so obvious to me you would never fall into the group he was referring to. But that was not the case for others who have passionate views against the RC Church.
Mark, I honestly can't imagine anyone being so concerned about this that they'd feel the need to put it in writing. I am probably (on some old, musty piece of paper somewhere) still considered a member of the United Church of Christ. I left because (at that time...dunno about now) the sermons were boring, it seemed to be just a social thing, and I wasn't learning much or enjoying my time there. I rarely even think about having been a member of that church; in fact, I hadn't thought about it until you started this thread. I don't feel psychologically troubled by not making my departure "official" or formal.
But, Linda, think about it...
...how many ex-UCC'ers do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of the UCC?
...how many ex-UMC'ers do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of the UMC?
...how many ex-anything but Catholic do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of their former church?
And, as I said in the beginning of the thread, If you don't care whether or not the Church considers you to be a Catholic or not, you can stop reading and go onto the next thread. If you don't like the fact that the Church still considers you to be a Catholic, then I can give you an overview on how to fix it. I realize that 95% of people who go elsewhere or just don't go anymore really couldn't care less. And most of those people...the vast majority, in fact, don't ever say anything one way or the other. If asked, they might say, "Yeah, I used to be Catholic, but it was boring. Yeah I used to be Catholic, but I thought their belief on ___(fill in the blank)___ was crazy. Yeah, I used to be Catholic, but..." and that's about it.
But there are a small minority of people in the world, including some who post here, who are lapsed Catholics (they don't practice anymore but are still "on the books," as it were) who take every opportunity possible to defame the Catholic Church. They take every opportunity possible to announce to the board, here, that they are ex Catholics and that, based on their experience, they personally know how eeevvviiilll the Catholic Church is. I thought that those people, a very small percentage of ex Catholics, would get some personal satisfaction at being able to tell the Catholic Church to stick their beliefs up their a$$es. In other words, to make official what they so vociferously proclaim in an unofficial manner at every possible opportunity. I thought that might give them some satisfaction.
But, of course, it takes no courage whatsoever to proclaim the evilness of the Catholic Church on an anonymous message board, particularly one that is made up of people who were once in a religious movement that advanced that type of belief. It would take a little courage to do so in person. So I guess I can understand why nobody would want to do so. But, since this is in the "open" forum, accessible by anybody, maybe somebody will read this and do it without announcing having done so. If it helps their psyche, I hope it helps.
(BTW, for the record, I did send TWI a letter years ago renouncing any association with them and asking them to please stop sending any more mailings to me...in case anybody is wondering)
Having said that, I can understand why it wouldn't matter (or even make sense) to you one way or the other.
...how many ex-UCC'ers do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of the UCC?
...how many ex-UMC'ers do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of the UMC?
...how many ex-anything but Catholic do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of their former church?
Sorry, but you asked, and here's my answer: None. But boring and unfulfilling as it was, the UCC never tried to control my choice to use birth control or the foods I ate on which days, and the UCC didn't have an "infallible" Pope at its head. I have much less reason for anger, it would seem.
Also, the UCC didn't forbid its ministers to marry, contrary to what the Bible instructs. It also apparently didn't attract so many pedophiles and (worse) cover up for them after they'd been caught.
[snip]
But there are a small minority of people in the world, including some who post here, who are lapsed Catholics (they don't practice anymore but are still "on the books," as it were) who take every opportunity possible to defame the Catholic Church.
One person's defame is another person's expose. Hmmmm, does this remind you of anything? A twi innie would consider much of the content of GS defamation, while the majority here consider it exposing twi.
[snip]
(BTW, for the record, I did send TWI a letter years ago renouncing any association with them and asking them to please stop sending any more mailings to me...in case anybody is wondering)
That's fine, and if it gave you some sense of satisfaction, that's good. I wrote some letters, too (not very well received). In the end, the most effective message I could send, though, was voting with my feet.
And just so I'm perfectly clear, I have nothing whatsoever against individual Roman Catholics and respect their right to worship as they choose. Just like I have nothing against individuals who still feel twi is the place for them. It's the heirarchy I disdain, in both organizations, not the individual members.
White Dove's opinions of my religious beliefs are totally irrelevant
Mark I acknowledged that your intentions were to be of help I believe that to be true. I then answered your question it was an attempt to add a little humor in the conversation while doing so. I never addressed your religious beliefs. But since you drug me into the mix...... I realize that you don't care what people think about you or your beliefs, good for you I don't either. Nor do I care what the church wants or not I rarely give it any thought. However this is a board where people do at times express their views of a variety of subjects religion being one of them. Taking my name off some dusty church roll is of little importance to me rates right below picking the lint off my carpet. Obviously you on the other hand have given it some consideration which is fine ,further you offered us all what I'm sure was a genuine offer to change the situation if we so desired.
I as I said don't feel the need to do such a thing ,nor did I while in the Way or after. The Roman Catholic church is as much a cult as the Way ever was. It is evil, and believe me with three aunts that were sisters of charity and years of teaching I think I've seen plenty. They have ruined many lives, they are oppressive to their people, don't even get me started with how they treat the nuns, who in turn treat people the same. And priests how many thousands have been destroyed by them. These are not opinions they are facts. That is the Catholic Religions legacy. Religion aside there are many very nice, kind people involved, I'm sure you are among those, the same can be said of the Way. View of religious practices and views of people are not one in the same as I'm sure you know. You make a valid point if you no longer believe in the doctrine then say so and leave. I agree I did just that in both the church and the Way. I've said the same regarding those who stayed in the Way doing things they admit they knew was wrong. When it got to the point I could no longer stand in church and pray that I support the Catholic church I left, and I said what I had to say then .The same was true in the Way. I would submit that there are many who still sit in the church every week and pray that prayer who do not believe what they say, they do not follow church doctrine, or beliefs, I suppose they choke every week also? That is exactly the kind of thinking that I left for, do what you want but boy in church pray your support for the one church. If you are looking for a group to work with I'd suggest you start there.
And just so I'm perfectly clear, I have nothing whatsoever against individual Roman Catholics and respect their right to worship as they choose. Just like I have nothing against individuals who still feel twi is the place for them. It's the heirarchy I disdain, in both organizations, not the individual members.
Editorial comment: When people decide to write within the quotes, it makes it very difficult to carry on an extended conversation, as the software doesn't support automatically bringing in quote within quote.
So this will not be as easy as it should be, for mechanical reasons:
You said:
Sorry, but you asked, and here's my answer: None. But boring and unfulfilling as it was, the UCC never tried to control my choice to use birth control or the foods I ate on which days, and the UCC didn't have an "infallible" Pope at its head. I have much less reason for anger, it would seem.
Also, the UCC didn't forbid its ministers to marry, contrary to what the Bible instructs. It also apparently didn't attract so many pedophiles and (worse) cover up for them after they'd been caught.
First, the topic is not specific arguments with the Catholic Church.
Second, you do realize that the Catholic Church is hardly the only church that does not allow ordained clergy to marry. In fact, I challenge you to show me a scripture that says that where a member of clergy IS ALLOWED to marry. (Yes, I know there are sections of scripture that talk about bishops and deacons being married to one wife, etc., but that is talking about their state prior to their ordination. Where does it say that a member of the clergy, once he has been ordained, is allowed to take a wife???). Oh, and, by the way, you are, of course, aware, that there are many married Catholic priests. And that ALL Permanent Deacons in the Catholic Church are married or widowers?
Third, the UCC allows female clergy, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps, since you are citing the Bible as your authority, you'd care to cite where this is permitted (I won't bother looking up the citation where St. Paul forbids women speaking in the church, we all know that one) (By the way, how does that 2X4 feel stuck in your eye?)
Fourth, as I've said before, I ain't defending the Catholic Church on the pedophile issue. The leadership, particularly in this country, messed up bad. You can look up my comments on any of the pedophile priest threads in the past to see what I've said before on it.
Fifth, Papal Infallibility is one of the most misunderstood concepts out there, both within and outside of the Church. It would take a thread on its own to discuss it. If you or anybody else want to do so, please start the appropriate thread in the Doctrinal basement and I'll be happy to explain/defend/argue it.
And, no I didn't ask. For the record.
One person's defame is another person's expose. Hmmmm, does this remind you of anything? A twi innie would consider much of the content of GS defamation, while the majority here consider it exposing twi.
Good point.
And if this was an ex-Catholic board, vice an ex-TWI board, that would be entirely appropriate.
And if somebody started a general discussion thread about pedophile priests or some other such scandal, that would be appropriate.
And if somebody started a doctrinal discussion thread about some doctrine believed by Catholics (whether it was in the form of a Catholic sharing a belief or a non-Catholic trying to debunk a belief), it would be appropriate.
But, it seems that there are a couple of posters here who feel morally compelled to make nasty, snide comments whenever something non-negative is said about the Catholic Church or some leader in that Church. For example, if somebody mentioned that JPII was against the Iraq war, one of those posters would feel compelled to make some comment (something like, I guess he took a break from p**king young choir boys). The most inappropriate ones I saw was on a memorial thread to JPII. Again, if this was an ex-Catholic board, that would be one thing. But it's not.
If that kind of thing is what you call "expose" -- so be it. It's what I call "defame" -- and I'll stick with my wording, thank you very much.
Hey, it's Pawtucket's board and his rules. If I'm here, I implicitly agree to those rules.
Then you said:
And just so I'm perfectly clear, I have nothing whatsoever against individual Roman Catholics and respect their right to worship as they choose. Just like I have nothing against individuals who still feel twi is the place for them. It's the heirarchy I disdain, in both organizations, not the individual members.
All well and good. And I have never noticed you being one of the ones about whom I'm speaking, so don't get me wrong. And I don't want to pick a fight with you, because I don't think that you and I have one.
Mark I acknowledged that your intentions were to be of help I believe that to be true. I then answered your question it was an attempt to add a little humor in the conversation while doing so. I never addressed your religious beliefs. But since you drug me into the mix...... I realize that you don't care what people think about you or your beliefs, good for you I don't either. Nor do I care what the church wants or not I rarely give it any thought. However this is a board where people do at times express their views of a variety of subjects religion being one of them. Taking my name off some dusty church roll is of little importance to me rates right below picking the lint off my carpet. Obviously you on the other hand have given it some consideration which is fine ,further you offered us all what I'm sure was a genuine offer to change the situation if we so desired.
I as I said don't feel the need to do such a thing ,nor did I while in the Way or after. The Roman Catholic church is as much a cult as the Way ever was. It is evil, and believe me with three aunts that were sisters of charity and years of teaching I think I've seen plenty. They have ruined many lives, they are oppressive to their people, don't even get me started with how they treat the nuns, who in turn treat people the same. And priests how many thousands have been destroyed by them. These are not opinions they are facts. That is the Catholic Religions legacy. Religion aside there are many very nice, kind people involved, I'm sure you are among those, the same can be said of the Way. View of religious practices and views of people are not one in the same as I'm sure you know. You make a valid point if you no longer believe in the doctrine then say so and leave. I agree I did just that in both the church and the Way. I've said the same regarding those who stayed in the Way doing things they admit they knew was wrong. When it got to the point I could no longer stand in church and pray that I support the Catholic church I left, and I said what I had to say then .The same was true in the Way. I would submit that there are many who still sit in the church every week and pray that prayer who do not believe what they say, they do not follow church doctrine, or beliefs, I suppose they choke every week also? That is exactly the kind of thinking that I left for, do what you want but boy in church pray your support for the one church. If you are looking for a group to work with I'd suggest you start there.
The quote in context (within a response to Satori) was:
Oh Satori, I don't know about anybody else, but I was absolutely confident that several people would step in and positively go "Jack Chick" on me. And, you know what? That's OK. If I was worried about it, I wouldn't have posted it. In fact, if I was worried about it, I would have kept my religious beliefs to myself and never made them public on this board.
But you know what? Your opinion of my beliefs are totally irrelevant. Excathedra's opinion of my religious beliefs are totally irrelevant.
White Dove's opinions of my religious beliefs are totally irrelevant.
If you were a real person they would still be irrelevant, but they are all the more so irrelevant since you are nothing more than a bunch of HTML code pushed from a server to my client. And I am nothing more than a bunch of HTML pushed in your direction.
But go ahead and say what you're going to say. You might hurt the feelings of some closet Catholics (who you all have intimidated into keeping their beliefs private), but you certainly are not capable of hurting me by what you say...no matter what it is. Although it violates board rules, if you want to make it personal even, feel free. I've got pretty thick skin. (I won't report you to the mods...can't speak for anybody else)
Since you quoted them (without the hyperlink to the original post on the first page so that a person could check the content), I thought it appropriate to put the quote in context.
Otherwise, I think I've said all I need to say in earlier posts.
There is one other thing that I don't believe I made clear above.
I do not support the Catholic hierarchy. I am actually of the belief that over half the bishops in this country are completely apostate. I believe that the majority of parishes in this country teach and practice grave error. I think that the majority of Catholics have been taught heresy from their youth.
So why in the world am I a Catholic? Because I have no alternative.
I was raised in an essentially agnostic household growing up and so was never really catechized like many ex-Catholics were. As a teen in high school, I started going to Mass from time to time. I explored around a lot of Prostant churches up through the time of my early 20s. I then fell into TWI while I was stationed in Germany. I left a few years later...not because I doctrinally had significant issues with them, but becase of how absolutely wierd it was starting to get in 1989. I tried a couple of offshoots but they were just plain strange.
I tried a few Protestant churches again in the mid 90s, but the stupid little TWI JCNG practice caused me to get really agitated whenever I was in one of their church services. I then recognized that I needed to break out the books and study the subject myself, because I realized that I could never feel at home in a church as long as I held to TWI doctrine. So I needed to decide if the TWI beliefs were correct or not. And so I studied. And I came to find out that TWI was wrong; the fundamental Nicene Christian beliefs are fully defensible in scripture. But as I was doing these studies, I also found that the Catholic doctrines were also defensible in scripture. What shocked me was when I found there was a scriptural basis for the Catholic devotion to relics!
And so the more I studied, the more I realized that I had no alternative but to go back to the Catholic Church.
I share this, not because I want to get into a doctrinal dicussion (I'll be happy to do so in the appropriate forum, as I said before), but because I want you to understand that the reason why I, personally, am a Catholic is not because I support the hierarchy, because I don't. But I see no alternative. If schism was not scripturally wrong, I would seriously consider joining an Orthodox church (because doctrinally they hold to all of the critical beliefs), but to do so is an offense against the unity of the body of Christ.
But it's not that I support the hierarchy or any of their abuses. Not hardly.
Exactly you lumped me into a supposed group that was going to go Jack Chick on you while speaking for me to another poster. I singled out my name from your quote as it was not for me to speak for others and because I take exception to your speaking as to what I will or won't do. Which by the way was not what I did. There was no reason to include me into this list I had made no comment on this thread concerning you or your beliefs. And without going through every past thread I'd say that generally I have limited my comments on the Catholic Church to my point of view due to many years of experience with the church, or recorded facts. I don't believe I have addressed your beliefs . Your preconceived "absolutely confident " apparently was not so absolute after all. I thanked you for what I saw as an attempt to be of help, while answering your question.
There is one other thing that I don't believe I made clear above.
I do not support the Catholic hierarchy. I am actually of the belief that over half the bishops in this country are completely apostate. I believe that the majority of parishes in this country teach and practice grave error. I think that the majority of Catholics have been taught heresy from their youth.
And so the more I studied, the more I realized that I had no alternative but to go back to the Catholic Church.
Mark, I really appreciate you sharing that. I feel the same way regarding Judaism.
Mark, thanks for sharing about why you're a Roman Catholic and how you feel about the hierarchy. I think I have a better understanding of you for that. I don't agree with all your logic, but then I don't have to, and I don't feel I need to convince you of anything.
I also have no desire to get into a doctrinal debate. I generally avoid that "place down there" like the plague. :blink:
I know I'm probably wasting my time posting this but..
I couldn't understand until last week why it was that there were so many suicide bombers in Iraq that were willing to give their lives in exchange for murdering fellow Iraqis with slightly different religious beliefs. Mostly its the Sunnis who blow themselves up killing Shiites. But I couldn't understand why they would do this. Oh, I could understand suicide bombers targeting Americans because the Americans were the invaders (in their minds anyways) but committing suicide to blow up fellow Iraqis? I just couldn't understand it.
But it became clear to me when I read last week that Sunnis consider Shiites to be infidels. They base it on interpretations of the Koran and Apostolic succession. And true believers will give their lives for the true faith. Then it all made sense. In this thread we're talking about catechisms, purgatory, Limbo (I am a little curious what became of that belief), Eucharists and whatever.
I know this will probably change no one's mind but look at the evidence. If you believe religious dogmas then there's a good chance *you are in a cult*. It could be the Roman Catholic cult or the Church Of The Living Lord Pentecostal Church Of God In Christ cult which believes that only members of the Church Of The Living Lord Pentecostal Church Of God In Christ go to Heaven. Do you know what they call a cult that lasts at least 100 years? A new religion!!!
Be happy folks. Believe what you want. I won't mind until you start killing the heretics again. Hey! We got any Salem witch decendents here that want to be absolved?? Mark might be able to find us a form for that, too. You know how the sins of the fathers are passed down (what was it? 7 generations?) So a 'get out of purgatory' form might come in handy. Probably just a venial sin, though. Venial sin. As opposed to what? Mortal sins? Hee-hee! One day some of you guys might see some humor in this nonsense.
Not to worry, as I'm not gonna go Jack Chick on you. (he's a real hoot. Landover Baptist oughtta hire him. )
The only thing I could initially think of upon reading your first post here was "So this explains the origin of endless paperwork, bureaucracy, and design by committee." :wacko: See, this is the first time I've ever heard of a church/denomination going to such extents for something like this. I even almost expected to see something like "and make sure that you submit said form in triplicate and on legal stationary."
Hey! At least they don't expect you to fill it all out in Latin, ehhh? :o
Sudo,
Limbo (I am a little curious what became of that belief),
Not to worry. The doctrine went through a recent upgrade. Limbo has now been absorbed into heaven. Apparently there was some recent expansion up there to allow for all the babies previously in limbo. New nurseries or somethin' like that. :P
If schism was not scripturally wrong, I would seriously consider joining an Orthodox church (because doctrinally they hold to all of the critical beliefs), but to do so is an offense against the unity of the body of Christ.
Im not up on my church history , but there are other groups that developed in various places parallel and somewhat independantly of the Rome Church that hold to 'the one true apostolic catholic faith', that have not been schismatic, since they developed separately for many centuries but also have not succombed to what often amounts to a political power grab by the bishops of Rome.
Orthodox isnt the only alternative, Have you looked at the Celtic Church? their roots are just as old, their doctrines very similar, histories and development different, and administration of hierarchy (in my limited understanding) much different....calling them schismatic, only comes from the assumption that the church at Rome was the one and only true development of the church, the Celtic church being detached from the Roman Empire and therefore Rome developed not schismatically but independantly
(and I am not trying to attempting to chase you away from Roman Catholicism, since you are very sincere about your faith I am just asking...)
Exactly you lumped me into a supposed group that was going to go Jack Chick on you while speaking for me to another poster. I singled out my name from your quote as it was not for me to speak for others and because I take exception to your speaking as to what I will or won't do. Which by the way was not what I did. There was no reason to include me into this list I had made no comment on this thread concerning you or your beliefs. And without going through every past thread I'd say that generally I have limited my comments on the Catholic Church to my point of view due to many years of experience with the church, or recorded facts. I don't believe I have addressed your beliefs . Your preconceived "absolutely confident " apparently was not so absolute after all. I thanked you for what I saw as an attempt to be of help, while answering your question.
It is evil, and believe me with three aunts that were sisters of charity and years of teaching I think I've seen plenty. They have ruined many lives, they are oppressive to their people, don't even get me started with how they treat the nuns, who in turn treat people the same. And priests how many thousands have been destroyed by them. These are not opinions they are facts. That is the Catholic Religions legacy.
And I wonder how you could attend a mass and profess belief in one holy catholic church knowing that they lied to you about the trinity. It seems hypocritical to me to stand and publicly profess belief and support of a doctrine that you privately think is a bunch of lies.
A pro Catholic post is often met with the same resistance .
I have had 12 years of Catholic education, also all of my 3 aunts were Sisters of Charity I am full aware of the meanings behind their rituals. That is exactly why I have nothing to do with their church. Rosaries,indulgences and holy cards and scapulars and a line of crazy Popes who did things that are so atrocious that they should invent a new class of sin just for them. Not to mention that none of it has any Biblical basis.
Catholic Church History speaks for itself, and it ain't pretty. These sicko's make the Way look like the Micky Mouse Club....
Nope, I have no reason to lump you in that group...no reason at all.
Torquemada’s thread has me thinking about sending off a letter to the UMC church I joined when I was 13, informing its leaders that I have become a member of a church in another denomination and should be removed from the rolls – if, after a number of years have passed since I’ve even been inside that UMC church, I’m still on the rolls.
For some reason, I like GSC’s resident zealous Romanist. If I were an ex-RC, however, I might tell him to take the RCC’s religious relics, its prayers to Mary and various saints, his suggestions and parochial self-pity (an implicit parochial self-pity, at least, about the poor widdle RC church being victimized by Jack Chick-types and ex-RCs), and go mortify himself.
Now that this thread has been placed in the Doctrinal Forum-I guess I'll make a confession...
Father, it's been well, it's been at least a few hours since my last confession. These are my sins...
Until a few minutes ago, I had no idea what "jack chick" meant. I've been puzzling over it lo these many posts. For a minute I had an impure thought too, about what a "Jack Chick" might be like or do.
I figured it might be a kind of "chick" thing, like being a guy-chick. I was confused. And so I thought bad things.
I did this 5 times.
For my penanace, I looked up the phrase, and now - I know. It's not what I thought.
Anyone else not know? Am I the last person on the earth who doesn't?
Does anybody else find it odd that the "sex offender registry" links are at the bottom of this thread?
No disrespect Mark, I find it odd that it would be at the end of most any thread in the doctrinal section, I wasn't intending to poke fun at Catholics. I'm sure there've been a few Rabbi's who have been convicted too. In fact I saw one on "To Catch A Predator"
Edited to say, it seems the links are changed quite frequently - its gone now. :)
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
21
15
8
32
Popular Days
Feb 17
45
Feb 19
32
Feb 16
26
Feb 18
25
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 21 posts
ChattyKathy 15 posts
Abigail 8 posts
markomalley 32 posts
Popular Days
Feb 17 2007
45 posts
Feb 19 2007
32 posts
Feb 16 2007
26 posts
Feb 18 2007
25 posts
Posted Images
markomalley
No problem...
My only thought in starting this thread was that there are a few people who are so disgusted with the Catholic Church that it would psychologically concern them that the Catholic Church still considered them Catholic. I was attempting to provide them a mechanism by which they could formally separate themselves from the Church.
Somebody wants to do so, great. Somebody doesn't want to do so, that's fine too.
When it starts descending into that eviiiiiiillllll global Catholic Cabal (where the Catholics, Freemasons, and Communists are working together to take over the world), I have to start laughing and point it out. And with your comments and Satori's comments, it looked like the thread was going in that direction.
But, darn it, some of those Jack Chick cartoons are FUNNY!
Thanks for the backup, Abi.
And, as I said to Satori, I know full well what will happen if I post anything non-negative about the Catholic Church on GSC...there will be trolls coming out from all the woodwork. That's fine. If I couldn't handle it then none of you would ever know that I was Catholic.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Abi, then that makes my heart smile actually and let's not take you were you haven't gone on you own. (typing with one hand while other is holding phone with doctor, so this is short it reply)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i don't remember feeling angry when saying "i do" to the questions. to me it was just a ritual. and my parents and in-laws didn't force us to do anything. we did it because we love them and knew how much they would worry if their grandbaby wasn't baptized in the catholic church. got married in the catholic church too.
anyway, i don't feel any desire to send in a paper to the church. once a catholic always a catholic, it's sorta like being irish
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
and whenever i visit my mom, i go to mass to watch her sing in the choir :)
but i don't put anything in the collection plate
but i do go up for wine
not really ha
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Mark, I honestly can't imagine anyone being so concerned about this that they'd feel the need to put it in writing. I am probably (on some old, musty piece of paper somewhere) still considered a member of the United Church of Christ. I left because (at that time...dunno about now) the sermons were boring, it seemed to be just a social thing, and I wasn't learning much or enjoying my time there. I rarely even think about having been a member of that church; in fact, I hadn't thought about it until you started this thread. I don't feel psychologically troubled by not making my departure "official" or formal.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Linda,
You are a good example of exactly what Mark had in mind, if I understand him correctly, because this is the first time I have even seen you mention your former church so obvious to me you would never fall into the group he was referring to. But that was not the case for others who have passionate views against the RC Church.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
But, Linda, think about it...
...how many ex-UCC'ers do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of the UCC?
...how many ex-UMC'ers do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of the UMC?
...how many ex-anything but Catholic do you hear making impassioned remarks about the evilness of their former church?
And, as I said in the beginning of the thread, If you don't care whether or not the Church considers you to be a Catholic or not, you can stop reading and go onto the next thread. If you don't like the fact that the Church still considers you to be a Catholic, then I can give you an overview on how to fix it. I realize that 95% of people who go elsewhere or just don't go anymore really couldn't care less. And most of those people...the vast majority, in fact, don't ever say anything one way or the other. If asked, they might say, "Yeah, I used to be Catholic, but it was boring. Yeah I used to be Catholic, but I thought their belief on ___(fill in the blank)___ was crazy. Yeah, I used to be Catholic, but..." and that's about it.
But there are a small minority of people in the world, including some who post here, who are lapsed Catholics (they don't practice anymore but are still "on the books," as it were) who take every opportunity possible to defame the Catholic Church. They take every opportunity possible to announce to the board, here, that they are ex Catholics and that, based on their experience, they personally know how eeevvviiilll the Catholic Church is. I thought that those people, a very small percentage of ex Catholics, would get some personal satisfaction at being able to tell the Catholic Church to stick their beliefs up their a$$es. In other words, to make official what they so vociferously proclaim in an unofficial manner at every possible opportunity. I thought that might give them some satisfaction.
But, of course, it takes no courage whatsoever to proclaim the evilness of the Catholic Church on an anonymous message board, particularly one that is made up of people who were once in a religious movement that advanced that type of belief. It would take a little courage to do so in person. So I guess I can understand why nobody would want to do so. But, since this is in the "open" forum, accessible by anybody, maybe somebody will read this and do it without announcing having done so. If it helps their psyche, I hope it helps.
(BTW, for the record, I did send TWI a letter years ago renouncing any association with them and asking them to please stop sending any more mailings to me...in case anybody is wondering)
Having said that, I can understand why it wouldn't matter (or even make sense) to you one way or the other.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
And just so I'm perfectly clear, I have nothing whatsoever against individual Roman Catholics and respect their right to worship as they choose. Just like I have nothing against individuals who still feel twi is the place for them. It's the heirarchy I disdain, in both organizations, not the individual members.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Mark I acknowledged that your intentions were to be of help I believe that to be true. I then answered your question it was an attempt to add a little humor in the conversation while doing so. I never addressed your religious beliefs. But since you drug me into the mix...... I realize that you don't care what people think about you or your beliefs, good for you I don't either. Nor do I care what the church wants or not I rarely give it any thought. However this is a board where people do at times express their views of a variety of subjects religion being one of them. Taking my name off some dusty church roll is of little importance to me rates right below picking the lint off my carpet. Obviously you on the other hand have given it some consideration which is fine ,further you offered us all what I'm sure was a genuine offer to change the situation if we so desired.
I as I said don't feel the need to do such a thing ,nor did I while in the Way or after. The Roman Catholic church is as much a cult as the Way ever was. It is evil, and believe me with three aunts that were sisters of charity and years of teaching I think I've seen plenty. They have ruined many lives, they are oppressive to their people, don't even get me started with how they treat the nuns, who in turn treat people the same. And priests how many thousands have been destroyed by them. These are not opinions they are facts. That is the Catholic Religions legacy. Religion aside there are many very nice, kind people involved, I'm sure you are among those, the same can be said of the Way. View of religious practices and views of people are not one in the same as I'm sure you know. You make a valid point if you no longer believe in the doctrine then say so and leave. I agree I did just that in both the church and the Way. I've said the same regarding those who stayed in the Way doing things they admit they knew was wrong. When it got to the point I could no longer stand in church and pray that I support the Catholic church I left, and I said what I had to say then .The same was true in the Way. I would submit that there are many who still sit in the church every week and pray that prayer who do not believe what they say, they do not follow church doctrine, or beliefs, I suppose they choke every week also? That is exactly the kind of thinking that I left for, do what you want but boy in church pray your support for the one church. If you are looking for a group to work with I'd suggest you start there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Editorial comment: When people decide to write within the quotes, it makes it very difficult to carry on an extended conversation, as the software doesn't support automatically bringing in quote within quote.
So this will not be as easy as it should be, for mechanical reasons:
You said:
Sorry, but you asked, and here's my answer: None. But boring and unfulfilling as it was, the UCC never tried to control my choice to use birth control or the foods I ate on which days, and the UCC didn't have an "infallible" Pope at its head. I have much less reason for anger, it would seem.
Also, the UCC didn't forbid its ministers to marry, contrary to what the Bible instructs. It also apparently didn't attract so many pedophiles and (worse) cover up for them after they'd been caught.
First, the topic is not specific arguments with the Catholic Church.
Second, you do realize that the Catholic Church is hardly the only church that does not allow ordained clergy to marry. In fact, I challenge you to show me a scripture that says that where a member of clergy IS ALLOWED to marry. (Yes, I know there are sections of scripture that talk about bishops and deacons being married to one wife, etc., but that is talking about their state prior to their ordination. Where does it say that a member of the clergy, once he has been ordained, is allowed to take a wife???). Oh, and, by the way, you are, of course, aware, that there are many married Catholic priests. And that ALL Permanent Deacons in the Catholic Church are married or widowers?
Third, the UCC allows female clergy, if I'm not mistaken. Perhaps, since you are citing the Bible as your authority, you'd care to cite where this is permitted (I won't bother looking up the citation where St. Paul forbids women speaking in the church, we all know that one) (By the way, how does that 2X4 feel stuck in your eye?)
Fourth, as I've said before, I ain't defending the Catholic Church on the pedophile issue. The leadership, particularly in this country, messed up bad. You can look up my comments on any of the pedophile priest threads in the past to see what I've said before on it.
Fifth, Papal Infallibility is one of the most misunderstood concepts out there, both within and outside of the Church. It would take a thread on its own to discuss it. If you or anybody else want to do so, please start the appropriate thread in the Doctrinal basement and I'll be happy to explain/defend/argue it.
And, no I didn't ask. For the record.
Good point.
And if this was an ex-Catholic board, vice an ex-TWI board, that would be entirely appropriate.
And if somebody started a general discussion thread about pedophile priests or some other such scandal, that would be appropriate.
And if somebody started a doctrinal discussion thread about some doctrine believed by Catholics (whether it was in the form of a Catholic sharing a belief or a non-Catholic trying to debunk a belief), it would be appropriate.
But, it seems that there are a couple of posters here who feel morally compelled to make nasty, snide comments whenever something non-negative is said about the Catholic Church or some leader in that Church. For example, if somebody mentioned that JPII was against the Iraq war, one of those posters would feel compelled to make some comment (something like, I guess he took a break from p**king young choir boys). The most inappropriate ones I saw was on a memorial thread to JPII. Again, if this was an ex-Catholic board, that would be one thing. But it's not.
If that kind of thing is what you call "expose" -- so be it. It's what I call "defame" -- and I'll stick with my wording, thank you very much.
Hey, it's Pawtucket's board and his rules. If I'm here, I implicitly agree to those rules.
Then you said:
All well and good. And I have never noticed you being one of the ones about whom I'm speaking, so don't get me wrong. And I don't want to pick a fight with you, because I don't think that you and I have one.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
The quote in context (within a response to Satori) was:
Since you quoted them (without the hyperlink to the original post on the first page so that a person could check the content), I thought it appropriate to put the quote in context.
Otherwise, I think I've said all I need to say in earlier posts.
God Bless!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Linda,
There is one other thing that I don't believe I made clear above.
I do not support the Catholic hierarchy. I am actually of the belief that over half the bishops in this country are completely apostate. I believe that the majority of parishes in this country teach and practice grave error. I think that the majority of Catholics have been taught heresy from their youth.
So why in the world am I a Catholic? Because I have no alternative.
I was raised in an essentially agnostic household growing up and so was never really catechized like many ex-Catholics were. As a teen in high school, I started going to Mass from time to time. I explored around a lot of Prostant churches up through the time of my early 20s. I then fell into TWI while I was stationed in Germany. I left a few years later...not because I doctrinally had significant issues with them, but becase of how absolutely wierd it was starting to get in 1989. I tried a couple of offshoots but they were just plain strange.
I tried a few Protestant churches again in the mid 90s, but the stupid little TWI JCNG practice caused me to get really agitated whenever I was in one of their church services. I then recognized that I needed to break out the books and study the subject myself, because I realized that I could never feel at home in a church as long as I held to TWI doctrine. So I needed to decide if the TWI beliefs were correct or not. And so I studied. And I came to find out that TWI was wrong; the fundamental Nicene Christian beliefs are fully defensible in scripture. But as I was doing these studies, I also found that the Catholic doctrines were also defensible in scripture. What shocked me was when I found there was a scriptural basis for the Catholic devotion to relics!
And so the more I studied, the more I realized that I had no alternative but to go back to the Catholic Church.
I share this, not because I want to get into a doctrinal dicussion (I'll be happy to do so in the appropriate forum, as I said before), but because I want you to understand that the reason why I, personally, am a Catholic is not because I support the hierarchy, because I don't. But I see no alternative. If schism was not scripturally wrong, I would seriously consider joining an Orthodox church (because doctrinally they hold to all of the critical beliefs), but to do so is an offense against the unity of the body of Christ.
But it's not that I support the hierarchy or any of their abuses. Not hardly.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Exactly you lumped me into a supposed group that was going to go Jack Chick on you while speaking for me to another poster. I singled out my name from your quote as it was not for me to speak for others and because I take exception to your speaking as to what I will or won't do. Which by the way was not what I did. There was no reason to include me into this list I had made no comment on this thread concerning you or your beliefs. And without going through every past thread I'd say that generally I have limited my comments on the Catholic Church to my point of view due to many years of experience with the church, or recorded facts. I don't believe I have addressed your beliefs . Your preconceived "absolutely confident " apparently was not so absolute after all. I thanked you for what I saw as an attempt to be of help, while answering your question.
Edited by WhiteDoveLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Mark, I really appreciate you sharing that. I feel the same way regarding Judaism.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Mark, thanks for sharing about why you're a Roman Catholic and how you feel about the hierarchy. I think I have a better understanding of you for that. I don't agree with all your logic, but then I don't have to, and I don't feel I need to convince you of anything.
I also have no desire to get into a doctrinal debate. I generally avoid that "place down there" like the plague. :blink:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sudo
I know I'm probably wasting my time posting this but..
I couldn't understand until last week why it was that there were so many suicide bombers in Iraq that were willing to give their lives in exchange for murdering fellow Iraqis with slightly different religious beliefs. Mostly its the Sunnis who blow themselves up killing Shiites. But I couldn't understand why they would do this. Oh, I could understand suicide bombers targeting Americans because the Americans were the invaders (in their minds anyways) but committing suicide to blow up fellow Iraqis? I just couldn't understand it.
But it became clear to me when I read last week that Sunnis consider Shiites to be infidels. They base it on interpretations of the Koran and Apostolic succession. And true believers will give their lives for the true faith. Then it all made sense. In this thread we're talking about catechisms, purgatory, Limbo (I am a little curious what became of that belief), Eucharists and whatever.
I know this will probably change no one's mind but look at the evidence. If you believe religious dogmas then there's a good chance *you are in a cult*. It could be the Roman Catholic cult or the Church Of The Living Lord Pentecostal Church Of God In Christ cult which believes that only members of the Church Of The Living Lord Pentecostal Church Of God In Christ go to Heaven. Do you know what they call a cult that lasts at least 100 years? A new religion!!!
Be happy folks. Believe what you want. I won't mind until you start killing the heretics again. Hey! We got any Salem witch decendents here that want to be absolved?? Mark might be able to find us a form for that, too. You know how the sins of the fathers are passed down (what was it? 7 generations?) So a 'get out of purgatory' form might come in handy. Probably just a venial sin, though. Venial sin. As opposed to what? Mortal sins? Hee-hee! One day some of you guys might see some humor in this nonsense.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
MarkO,
Not to worry, as I'm not gonna go Jack Chick on you. (he's a real hoot. Landover Baptist oughtta hire him.
)
The only thing I could initially think of upon reading your first post here was "So this explains the origin of endless paperwork, bureaucracy, and design by committee." :wacko: See, this is the first time I've ever heard of a church/denomination going to such extents for something like this. I even almost expected to see something like "and make sure that you submit said form in triplicate and on legal stationary."
Hey! At least they don't expect you to fill it all out in Latin, ehhh? :o
Sudo,
Not to worry. The doctrine went through a recent upgrade. Limbo has now been absorbed into heaven. Apparently there was some recent expansion up there to allow for all the babies previously in limbo. New nurseries or somethin' like that. :P
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
getting way way
Im not up on my church history , but there are other groups that developed in various places parallel and somewhat independantly of the Rome Church that hold to 'the one true apostolic catholic faith', that have not been schismatic, since they developed separately for many centuries but also have not succombed to what often amounts to a political power grab by the bishops of Rome.
Orthodox isnt the only alternative, Have you looked at the Celtic Church? their roots are just as old, their doctrines very similar, histories and development different, and administration of hierarchy (in my limited understanding) much different....calling them schismatic, only comes from the assumption that the church at Rome was the one and only true development of the church, the Celtic church being detached from the Roman Empire and therefore Rome developed not schismatically but independantly
(and I am not trying to attempting to chase you away from Roman Catholicism, since you are very sincere about your faith I am just asking...)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Nope, I have no reason to lump you in that group...no reason at all.
My apologies...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
If there is no prohibition against something, wouldn't the assumption be that it is allowed?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Cynic
Torquemada’s thread has me thinking about sending off a letter to the UMC church I joined when I was 13, informing its leaders that I have become a member of a church in another denomination and should be removed from the rolls – if, after a number of years have passed since I’ve even been inside that UMC church, I’m still on the rolls.
For some reason, I like GSC’s resident zealous Romanist. If I were an ex-RC, however, I might tell him to take the RCC’s religious relics, its prayers to Mary and various saints, his suggestions and parochial self-pity (an implicit parochial self-pity, at least, about the poor widdle RC church being victimized by Jack Chick-types and ex-RCs), and go mortify himself.
Edited by CynicLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Now that this thread has been placed in the Doctrinal Forum-I guess I'll make a confession...
Father, it's been well, it's been at least a few hours since my last confession. These are my sins...
Until a few minutes ago, I had no idea what "jack chick" meant. I've been puzzling over it lo these many posts. For a minute I had an impure thought too, about what a "Jack Chick" might be like or do.
I figured it might be a kind of "chick" thing, like being a guy-chick. I was confused. And so I thought bad things.
I did this 5 times.
For my penanace, I looked up the phrase, and now - I know.
It's not what I thought.
Anyone else not know? Am I the last person on the earth who doesn't?
If not, here's some information.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
Does anybody else find it odd that the "sex offender registry" links are at the bottom of this thread?
No disrespect Mark, I find it odd that it would be at the end of most any thread in the doctrinal section, I wasn't intending to poke fun at Catholics. I'm sure there've been a few Rabbi's who have been convicted too. In fact I saw one on "To Catch A Predator"
Edited to say, it seems the links are changed quite frequently - its gone now. :)
Edited by AbigailLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
The man is more dangerous than some of the things he attacks, I'm surprised he hasn't been murdered myself.
His pamphlet was left under my windshield wiper one time and as I looked through it I thought Satan was standing close by looking for my reaction.
And this has nothing to do with Catholics, it has everything to do with the fact that the man is seriously deranged.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.