To all ex-Catholic GSC'ers

[markomalley]

I know there are a lot of you out there.

There must have been a number of requests in recent years to formally be stricken from the roles of the Catholic Church. The Church has just published guidelines on this process.

The bottom line is that, while you may consider yourself to be an ex-Catholic, but the Church will consider you to be a Catholic (albeit a "lapsed" Catholic) until you formally 'defect' from the Catholic Church. The practical difference, of course, is totally inconsequential. But I know some of the most virulent anti-Catholics out there are lapsed Catholics...and the fact that the Church still considers such a person a Catholic might be rather upsetting to that person.

If you don't care whether or not the Church considers you to be a Catholic or not, you can stop reading and go onto the next thread. If you don't like the fact that the Church still considers you to be a Catholic, then I can give you an overview on how to fix it.

First, the actual document where I get this information is here. It is, however, written in typical Vatican Curia fashion...very complex and nuanced.

There are three steps involved:

a) the internal decision to leave the Catholic Church;

b) the realization and external manifestation of that decision; and

c) the reception of that decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority.

I know that, if you're reading this thread, that you've done step "a."

Step "b" means that you need to write it down.

The referenced document says:

2. The substance of the act of the will must be the rupture of those bonds of communion – faith, sacraments, and pastoral governance – that permit the Faithful to receive the life of grace within the Church. This means that the formal act of defection must have more than a juridical-administrative character (the removal of one’s name from a Church membership registry maintained by the government in order to produce certain civil consequences), but be configured as a true separation from the constitutive elements of the life of the Church: it supposes, therefore, an act of apostasy, heresy or schism.

Plain-English translation of this: you need to give a reason where you formally and officially declare yourself to be schismatic, a heretic, or an apostate and provide enough detail that the person receiving the document cannot interpret it otherwise (Being ex-TWI, it would be just as easy as anything for you to formally renounce the dogma of the Trinity, renounce all of the sacraments, renounce the efficacy of your baptism, reject the authority of the One, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, and so on and so forth). But it is IMPORTANT to list a reason to do so...not to attack the person you are delivering the note to, but to make sure that there are no questions.

You would also do well in such a letter to identify yourself very clearly. The date and place you were born. Your parents. The date and parish and diocese of baptism. Date and place you were confirmed, etc.

I would make the letter look something like this (changing the names etc.):

(return address)

(date)

Father John Doe

Pastor, Saint Sylvester of the Catacombs

123 South North Street

Main Street, NY 02343

Dear Father Doe,

I, ____(fill in your name)___, born on ______ __, 19___ in Tuscoloosa, Alabama, of _____ and ____, baptized at St. ______ Parish, in the (Arch)diocese of _____ on ____(date)___, formally pronounce my actus formalis defectionis ab Ecclesia catholica, my defection from the Catholic Church.

I am a(n) (apostate, schsmatic, or heretic, or all three) for the following reasons:

- (each of the rejections should clearly show where you reject Church dogma in a given area)

-

-

-

Further, I believe that I am correct in the above matters and that the Catholic Church has taught/practiced error. I have held to the above beliefs for many years and have throroughly rejected any possibility of returning to the Catholic Church. My opposition is firm enough that I can no longer tolerate the Catholic Church considering me a member. Therefore, I wish that the baptismal register be annotated with the following:

defectio ab Ecclesia catholica actu formali

in accordance with Canon 535 Sect. 2.

I recognize the implications of this declaration.

I make this declaration freely and with a clear conscience.

Respectfully,

____(sign your name)_____

You need to present some letter that looks something like the above to:

- The pastor of the parish where you were baptised (first preference)

- The pastor of the local parish where you live right now

- The bishop of the diocese where you live right now

The document states that:

It is required, moreover, that the act be manifested by the interested party in written form, before the competent authority of the Catholic Church: the Ordinary or proper pastor, who is uniquely qualified to make the judgment concerning the existence or non-existence of the act of the will as described above in n. 2.

The ordinary is the bishop. The proper pastor is the pastor where you live. (The pastor of the parish where you were baptized would also kind of be qualified as your baptismal record is kept there)

Very important: DO NOT give it to the Church secretary. Do not just hand it to any priest. Do not give it to an auxillary bishop. It MUST be presented to a parish pastor or the "ordinary" (the head bishop of the diocese).

Next, you need to get this pastor or this bishop to sign for it.

When he reads it, he will likely want to ask some questions to make sure that you know what you're doing. As long as you stay focused, that shouldn't be an issue. Just be "nice," proper, and professional and that interview will be done.

If you think this is a lot of hassle, well, consider this: if you got totally disgusted with the USA, you could leave any time. But the USA will always consider you to be an American until you show yourself to the local embassy. There you will have to renounce your citizenship formally, answer some questions, and satisfy the ambassador/consul that you really want to leave. Only after they accept your decision will you lose your citizenship.

I know the thead is long, but when I found out about this, I thought of a few people that might be interested.

[dmiller]

Thanks for the info, Mark. :)

Though raised Catholic, I'm not one of those who care if I am "officially" gone.

Neither (I guess) do I care if I'm "officially" gone from twi either.

(They [twi] still have my personal data in their computer system).

It's interesting that the RCC will give a "lapsed" status to someone.

My dad's side of the family is extremely catholic.

The last Mass I was at was for my uncle's funeral back in 1996.

He was pretty high ranking in the Knights of Columbus,

but I couldn't tell you what his council level was.

(Did I get that right -- calling it a "council level")?

Is this "lapsed" status a new thing they've come up with?

Or an old thing that is now being defined?

Either way -- it's news to me.

I thought they considered me apostate decades ago.

By the way -- (not meaning to de-rail here), but when I was at that Mass,

there was a sign on the confessional booth,

which said something else -- more *pc* for these days.

Something like "retribution room"??? I honestly don't remember now.

But am wondering if confessional booths have a new name (these days).

[markomalley]

Thanks for the info, Mark. :)

Though raised Catholic, I'm not one of those who care if I am "officially" gone.

Neither (I guess) do I care if I'm "officially" gone from twi either.

(They [twi] still have my personal data in their computer system).

It's interesting that the RCC will give a "lapsed" status to someone.

My dad's side of the family is extremely catholic.

The last Mass I was at was for my uncle's funeral back in 1996.

He was pretty high ranking in the Knights of Columbus,

but I couldn't tell you what his council level was.

(Did I get that right -- calling it a "council level")?

Is this "lapsed" status a new thing they've come up with?

Or an old thing that is now being defined?

Either way -- it's news to me.

I thought they considered me apostate decades ago.

By the way -- (not meaning to de-rail here), but when I was at that Mass,

there was a sign on the confessional booth,

which said something else -- more *pc* for these days.

Something like "retribution room"??? I honestly don't remember now.

But am wondering if confessional booths have a new name (these days).

I don't know if 'lapsed' is an official term or not. But it's something I've seen/heard used for a long time in regards to people who have been away from the sacraments for years...like those who regularly attend a Protestant group or those who just don't go to church anymore. The belief has always been that once you're a Catholic you're always a Catholic....even if you are excommunicated.

When you are baptized, your name is recorded in a baptismal registry and from that point forward....

'Retribution' room?? Maybe 'Reconcilliation' room...the Sacrament of Confession is also known (nowadays) as the Sacrament of Reconcilliation and most modern churches have spot where you can go in and do it face to face versus the old fashioned way. (Me I prefer the old fashioned confessional)

As far as the K of C, I used to be pretty active, but don't have time anymore to go to the meetings. I still do some of the fundraisers and work with them on the charitable acts (distribution of food, etc.), but don't have time for the meetings. But the way it works is councils are the local level, then districts, then states, then the 'supreme' council. The fourth degree is organized a bit different: assemblies. I think it's a worthy organization...they do a lot of good for a lot of people.

I didn't figure that you'd be one who was interested one way or another in doing this. I know there are a few (by far the minority) former Catholics who are very vociferous in their opposition to the Catholic Church. I figure that they'd be interested in making their separation 'offiicial.'

[satori001]

If a Catholic was baptised but never molested, does that mean his/her membership was never consummated by an official organ of the church? In which case, could you just shoot the Pope an email along with a little something via PayPal?

[markomalley]

If a Catholic was baptised but never molested, does that mean his/her membership was never consummated by an official organ of the church? In which case, could you just shoot the Pope an email along with a little something via PayPal?

I knew that was coming from you Satori...

[Rocky]

When you are baptized, your name is recorded in a baptismal registry and from that point forward....

I didn't figure that you'd be one who was interested one way or another in doing this. I know there are a few (by far the minority) former Catholics who are very vociferous in their opposition to the Catholic Church. I figure that they'd be interested in making their separation 'offiicial.

Likewise, I have no compelling need to be removed from their roles... my dad's final (earthly) resting place is in a Catholic cemetery in New York (not NYC)... and while I'm automatically qualified to have space reserved in a Veterans' Cemetery, there may come a time when I'd want to decide to rest in that same cemetery as my dad, which is in the city I where i was born... I would imagine that if I renounced my membership in the Catholic Church, I'd probably make it so I could not be buried in the same place as my dad...

[dmiller]

'Retribution' room?? Maybe 'Reconcilliation' room...the Sacrament of Confession is also known (nowadays) as the Sacrament of Reconcilliation and most modern churches have spot where you can go in and do it face to face versus the old fashioned way. (Me I prefer the old fashioned confessional)

Reconcilliation room. That was it. :)

Edited February 16, 2007 by dmiller

[excathedra]

[ChattyKathy]

If a Catholic was baptised but never molested, does that mean his/her membership was never consummated by an official organ of the church? In which case, could you just shoot the Pope an email along with a little something via PayPal?

You do know we have a love/hate relationship don't you dear?

This text you chose to bring up falls in this category should you have taken a leave of your senses and forgotten for some reason.....the horse is dead.

Find a new cause please!

[excathedra]

that horse ain't never dead, he's trottin around in purgatory

[ChattyKathy]

Then it would appear to be where it should be.

[mstar1]

I am not a Catholic and never have been, but should I convert, then become lapsed and then decide to be officially removed, I'll know where to go.

I suppose a lot could be brought up in doctrinal about this....(arent the bonds supposedly..indissoluable?...?), but Im not familar enough with catholic doctrine to discuss it, I am pretty sure it would be the right move for some people..

[doojable]

I was raised Catholic.....

I don't know - seems there's a George Carlin routine just begging to be done here...

[WhiteDove]

Thanks Mark I know you were trying to be of help...........

Myself I don't really care either, actually I collect lapsed status's Although because they are hard to come by I only have two in my collection. Someday I was hoping to run across a swap meet were I could maybe trade or purchase some additional ones. Hopefully I will be able to do this before getting old and my brain reaches lapsed status, in which case I would have three but most likely would not know it. I do wish those cheap suckers would send out a certificate or letter like the Way did so I could frame it for the wall though.

[sprawled out]

couldn't they just "mark and avoid" me? or classify me "dropped from active churchgoing?"

[Bramble]

I don't mind having a baptismal record out there, or that I'm still counted on Catholic statistics.

I mentioned this to my brother, and he feels that anyone who survived Sister Victoire(viscious) in fifth grade has every right to check the catholic box when a form requires a religion! (Bro is a tree hugging pagan who works on environmental issues.)

He also stays in touch with some of his old buddies from Catholic School.

Plus who knows, maybe some future Bramble descendant will need baptismal records for a geneology search!

[Sushi]

Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and Limbo. Those were the four big places to go.

Heaven was the only one they showed you pictures of, drawings, I assume they were drawings, right? But heaven was always a lot of yellow and white light (might have been clouds, might have been apartment buildings, you weren't sure).

And a Lotta tall angels, you ever notice that? Except the the cherubs, all the angels, real tall dudes, yeah.

And blondes, there were FAR too many blondes in heaven as far as I was concerned.

Hell, they never showed you pictures of hell. Hell was fire, and anyone can dig fire, right? (said in fairly thick Irish accent) Yeah, hell is like burnin a hunnnert Christmas trees, and jumpin RIGHT in the middle, ya know?

Purgatory was wierd, Purgatory was as bad as hell, but, "you knew you were going home, man..."

I wonder if they had short time clubs in Purgatory. "Hey, I can do an eon standin on my head".

And the wierdest of all was Limbo. Limbo was where they sent unbaptized babies. Yup, can't see God if you're not baptized, but you were too young to make the decision, WHIPem into Limbo. whooooom. What could Limbo have been? "hawoom ha wa woom woo woo woo woom, weeeelcoooome tooooooo Limbooooooo."

I think they've since cancelled Limbo, but I heard when they purged a few of the saints, they called off Limbo too. Ya know, hope they promoted everyone, just didn't cut em loose space.

Thank you, Mr. Carlin.

(for those interested, this was done from memory)

Edited February 16, 2007 by Sushi

[washingtonweather]

is this something God said is supposed to be done? I am really thinking this s one of those traditions of men things...No?

[excathedra]

the reception of that decision by the competent ecclesiastical authority

snort

[doojable]

Thank you, Sushi! Now do you remember the skit on Special Dispensation?

I would have been doing time in H*ll for a cheesburger.....

Edited February 16, 2007 by doojable

[WordWolf]

Thank you, Sushi! Now do you remember the skit on Special Dispensation?

I would have been doing time in H*ll for a cheesburger.....

"...One thing that bothered me, I guess in hindsight, was that the Church kept changing

rules on me.

This Law is Eternal-except for this weekend!

SPECIAL DISPENSATION!

Like, eating meat on Fridays was a mortal sin-

except for the people of Philadelphia-they were number one in our scrap iron drive!

They'd give it out as a prize.

If you donated the most money to the Bishop's Relief Fund- hamburgers on Friday!

I've been out for a while.

It's not even a sin any more to eat meat on Friday........

But I bet there's still guys in Hell doing time on a meat rap!!!!

'I thought it was retro-active!

I had a boloney sandwich.

This guy had a beef jerky.'

How'd you like to do Eternity for a beef jerky?"

Then he wondered about short-time clubs.

(For those interested, I believe Sushi, because mine was also done from memory.)

(Oh, Sush, the pictures they sometimes showed of Heaven- you'd sometimes find

them in 'Treasure Chest', the comic with Chuck White.

Whoever that was and whatever that was.)

[excathedra]

i'll never forget when i had to go to the pre-baptism meeting for my baby

i just couldn't resist raising my hand and asking what happened to limbo

i got the evil eye from everyone in the group

and no straight answer from the priest hosting (ha, host) the meeting

[markomalley]

i'll never forget when i had to go to the pre-baptism meeting for my baby

i just couldn't resist raising my hand and asking what happened to limbo

i got the evil eye from everyone in the group

and no straight answer from the priest hosting (ha, host) the meeting

Gee...why in the world did you bother??? (go to a pre-baptism meeting for your baby, that is)

I hope you didn't suffer permanent damage when you choked on the words when you had to promise to raise your child in the Catholic faith!

[excathedra]

YOU wouldn't understand what we do for love, meaning grandparents

so thank you for leaving me alone on this one

i choked on NOTHING

permanent damage from the damn catholic church is another story

thanks mark

[socks]

You would also do well in such a letter to identify yourself very clearly. The date and place you were born. Your parents. The date and parish and diocese of baptism. Date and place you were confirmed, etc.

The RC church is one of the most powerful organizations in the world. Putting your name on a list like that - that's the last thing I'd recommend anyone of sound mind to do. From a personal risk management standpoint, it's like putting a bullseye on your back. I recommend anyone even considering doing something like this - don't, regardless of where you stand with the church. If you've left, you've left, to whatever degree or purpose. I say, leave it at that. Nothing's gained by doing this, that I can see.