Nobody is happy when "perfectly healthy" people are harmed by a program that is looking to do
good. To hear that some have been harmed is not by itself reason to throw the program in the
dumpster.
Really?
I remember the Tylenol incident a "few" years ago. From what I remember, at least ONE "otherwise perfectly healthy" person, who merely had a headache DIED.
So, what did the manufacturer do..
"well, it was only one death, a few got sick. Let's just have business as usual, and insist that the customers sign a hold harmless agreement before we sell them the product."
No- they pulled Tylenol off the shelf like it was cyanide.. went to great lengths to recall the product, at great expense.
Yeah- a "money grubbing drug company" as some people would call them.
And they have more "CHRISTIAN" morals than a group that espouses christian beliefs.
Or merely shrouds itself in them, in name only.
"what's a murder, a few suicides, people going in the loony bin. Can't put it in the dumpster, look at all the good it did.."
This is SUPPOSED to be a "self-help" seminar.. people just want a little more focus, maybe- maybe a few more communication skills.
Maybe they want a little more confidence in themselves.
"well, let's just break them down.. REALLY show them how they need a savior.."
I remember the Tylenol incident a "few" years ago. From what I remember, at least ONE "otherwise perfectly healthy" person, who merely had a headache DIED.
So, what did the manufacturer do..
"well, it was only one death, a few got sick. Let's just have business as usual, and insist that the customers sign a hold harmless agreement before we sell them the product."
No- they pulled Tylenol off the shelf like it was cyanide.. went to great lengths to recall the product, at great expense.
Yeah- a "money grubbing drug company" as some people would call them.
And they have more "CHRISTIAN" morals than a group that espouses christian beliefs.
Or merely shrouds itself in them, in name only.
"what's a murder, a few suicides, people going in the loony bin. Can't put it in the dumpster, look at all the good it did.."
This is SUPPOSED to be a "self-help" seminar.. people just want a little more focus, maybe- maybe a few more communication skills.
Maybe they want a little more confidence in themselves.
"well, let's just break them down.. REALLY show them how they need a savior.."
I thought that was the devil's job.
hammeroni,
I had said that I wouldn't be back in this discussion, but I am back.
The tylenol analogy is not a good one. In the case of tylenol, the product was directly shown to be
the result of someone's death.
I don't think you can prove that there were any murders or suicides as a result of the training. Your wild
speculations make for titillating reading, but don't do much good at getting at the heart of the matter.
"Yet according to Pittsburgh lawyer Peter N. Georgiades, its more common for cases against Lifespring to be settled out of court. In 1982 the family of a man who leaped from a four-story holding following a five-day Lifespring training session settled out of court for an undisclosed sum. And In 1993 Georgiades won a $750,000 settlement for a Lifespring trainee who was institutionalized for two years following Leadership training."
There are several other similar incidents of suicide.
When the server for the other website I found gets straightened out, I'll post the other documented sources.
Heres the story about momentous and VQ. When ever you have a push for numbers and money there is an evil work and thats the way these are set up. Sponsors are given a piece of the take. If you are on a team you must have a list of ten people taht you want to inroll. And then there are the coaching calls asking you all about the people you are to be working with. thats were the presure comes in. And the presure is as heavy and condeming as it can get. Now there are those who like that presure and have a large shere of contacts. Most people run through thier family and thats the end of them. There is one big area that showed up real big for me and that was the more money you give the more attention you get. We ARE not created equal when it comes to this. Is it a great tool for abuse both from the giver and from the reciever. it's used as a huge control thing from both sides.
I have to say that my momentus experiance was the hardest thing I ever did put had the greatest fruit. Everyone is built differant so i benifited from what happened in the training. My marrage is the best it has ever been and my kids have benifited the same way. It was something we needed and the time was right.
It's the money and numbers that makes it out of wac and cause all the desention. Well most of it. If it wasn't for the numbers and the money those that disagree with the training propably would never have been it. But the controling pressure , you could call it cult like, is it's biggest enrollment tech.
Dr Phil does the Get Real Chellange. It's the same thing.
Look anything we do has some type of need or some type of control. A great statement from the trainings. ARE YOU GIVING OR TAKING WHEN YOU DO THINGS OR COMUMICATING WITH FRIEND OR FAMILY?
Rich
Hay wordwolf
I posted this long ago maybe you didn't get a chance to read it.
The Stuff going on here ,GS, is no differant than MO or VQ. Whats your puprpose of posting on these threads? To get some anial retentive idiots to see what they are doing is wrong and to protect others from thier curses?
The words printed are very pointed Alot of pressure, anger, hurt, vitial words, rejected souls, fighting for understanding, logic for whats been going on, looking for the truth from or about the ces bunch.
, by giving input to each other or sharing experiences. Look how some of them are responded to. Both good and bad. And once in awhile making no sense.
Any instruction can be used for good or bad. These people, ces, didn't start with MO/VQ. they started a long time ago learning how to manipulate and then took a tool and turned it to thier maniplative advantage.
Look M/VQ are a program that has effects both good and bad and the bad side is very unfortinate.
My marriage has effects both good and bad. Mostly good i'm glad to say because I have learned how to give more and not be taking. Another way of putting it is to make it less about me.
The anial ones at ces don't get it. They are about them and only them. thier actions paint the picture clear.
This a very resent true fact from one of the blind anial ones.
Long letter written to them about some things that might give them insight and the response was as follows. " Do we agree that what God says matters? And if so, do the 10 commandments matter? What about the 9 th commandment about not bearing false testimony against a neighor? Does that matter? Or is it okay to say a lot of untrue things about someone in the name of expressing one's opion, or because there are also a few true things that were stated?"
Then the person states that they are hurt deeply. I posted about this letter on one of the other threads.
If there was one true fact in that letter it was important. But it was stated that there were more than one. I read the letter and there were many points, actualy didn't find anything that I didn't agree with, I found it very true. Then they quote the 10 commands. using the 9th. But don't address " don't steal". These guys have abused ces credit cards, traveled all over the place for personal business to buy personal items and vacation alot. All on those contributed dollars. I think someone tried to address thier missusing funds at one time and they were told to leave.
The 9th!!! what about a bod member going some where for pleasure and when confronted said it was to minister. Yep actually happened. I was on the pleasure end and was amazed at the staement they made.
I guess what I'm trying to get across is lets get back on focuse with ces/stf. The MO/VQ stuff is really irrevelent to what caused these other threads and seems to take the focuse off the true culprits.
God Bless
R
So maybe those 10 commandment beams in thier own eye should be operated on first.
The most relevance is to those who might be in the precarious position of still being affected by this kind of stuff, still in the CES circle of influence. To those of us who aren't it's not an issue, Momentous is a rumor of a pimple on the butt of a long lost pig. To those who may be pressured to consider alternative solutions to the message of Christ, it can be made to sound like a good thing. "Try it, you just might like it".
People can like whatever they want. There's enough stuff out about Momentous to warrant discussion and repeated debate if that's what it takes to keep the pro's and cons on the table, i.e. "You just might not like it".
Or give it a rest, keeping in mind that the poor ol' CES people will probably find something else next year that will be the bright twinkle in their eye at that time. Will it stop? I don't know, the pattern seems to be to keep finding these kinds of things, God knows where. Is there a catalogue for second-rate self-help courses somewhere I don't know about?
I think it's an indication of wrong direction when churches become habitual seekers of alternative methods to the simple and powerful reality of "the risen Christ", that is, when Christian life isn't what people think it should amount to and they feel the need to dismantle and reassemble the components in ways that will bring them satisfaction and fulfillment.
"Success" in Christianity can't be artificially manufactured. Well, it can be, but it's not Christianity. The essence and core message of Christianity is a risen savior, Jesus Christ, leading and filling the life of His followers in the here and now in a real tangible way that leads the people to an ever growing and appreciated relationship with God. Applying that to life in general is what Christianity and Christian pursuits is all about.
Encouraging people in that direction does not require what Momentous is described as offering. It would be childish and silly if it wasn't for the damage reported that it does.
But maybe it is time to give it a rest. There's enough information and cross linked pages that if anyone does a little research online for themselves, they'll hear both sides of the story. The "other side" of the story has certainly been given an airing. I hope people find it.
Might be right Socks. Next year, might be another self "help" seminar, and they'll be standing awe-struck in the shadow of a few great flunkys, yet one more time, "you just HAFTA try this one.."
At least we know their stand on momentus, from statements of some of their membership. Maybe that's enough here.
I never heard anyone say that this program is above reproach. To put any program on
such a pedestal seems foolish. I reserve the "above reproach" label for God and for Jesus.
[That's the net result of dismissing all problems WITH this program, its execution,
and the "aggressive marketing" categorically-that the program is NEVER to blame, but some
OTHER source (the victims conned into taking it) are ALWAYS to blame.
(Again, not all people who took it feel they were damaged. Bully for them- I'm addressing
the victims.)]
There is potential for harm in many many activities in life, including Momentus/Vision Quest.
[There are degrees and degrees of risk. Leaving one's home contains risks.
Blindfolding yourself and running around on the highway contains risks.
It's amazing I need to spell this out-again- but the issue is
"DO THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGH THE RISKS, and CAN WE ACHEIVE THE BENEFITS WITH FEWER RISKS?"]
Nobody is happy when "perfectly healthy" people are harmed by a program that is looking to do
good. To hear that some have been harmed is not by itself reason to throw the program in the
dumpster.
[However, the response so far has been to sweep the claims of harm under the rug-
or just to try to remove any legal responsibility for the harm inflicted from the program that
inflicted the harm.
If those are my ONLY two choices- and any HEALTHY group would at least CONSIDER the THIRD
option of a COMPLETE OVERHAUL-
then I'd rather "throw the PROGRAM in the dumpster"
than the current ces/stfi approach-
which is to throw the PEOPLE in the dumpster.]
The point I am trying to make is that growth often/usually takes risk, though sometimes
the immediate results of risks taken don't seem positive. It seems that perspective and attitude
seem to be the biggest factors in where we go in life.
[And the point I made earlier is that all risk =\= growth.
And relabelling damage into "growth" in no way makes it growth.
Then again, some will argue ALL experiences = growth, and that means that digging your
way out of the rubble of the World Trade Center, or surviving rocket attacks in Iraq as part
of a convoy both produce growth. Under that model, Momentus always produces growth.
However, in each case, does the growth justify the risks involved?]
Wordwolf, I am permanently leaving this GS topic, which has run its course for me. It
has been nice chatting with you.
Regards,
CS
[What's that behind me? Feels like smoke being blown.
I almost miss when people who found me frustrating and a trial actually ADMITTED it
and didn't pretend they existed on some more profound spiritual plateau...]
I think it's an indication of wrong direction when churches become habitual seekers of alternative methods to the simple and powerful reality of "the risen Christ", that is, when Christian life isn't what people think it should amount to and they feel the need to dismantle and reassemble the components in ways that will bring them satisfaction and fulfillment.
"Success" in Christianity can't be artificially manufactured. Well, it can be, but it's not Christianity. The essence and core message of Christianity is a risen savior, Jesus Christ, leading and filling the life of His followers in the here and now in a real tangible way that leads the people to an ever growing and appreciated relationship with God. Applying that to life in general is what Christianity and Christian pursuits is all about.
Encouraging people in that direction does not require what Momentous is described as offering. It would be childish and silly if it wasn't for the damage reported that it does.
Reading over these recent points made by WordWolf and Socks – got me thinking about the value Jesus put on those who believe in Him. There isn't any criteria to meet to enter His kingdom, like being spiritually ready or mature – just have a childlike faith. No one is even remotely considered expendable – for He says there will be a terrible judgment upon anyone that would cause them to stumble.
Matthew 18:1-7 NASB
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
To me this speaks volumes on what a minister's attitude should be – or any Christian for that matter who is seriously intent on working for the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to keep in mind the effect…the influence that our character, our actions, our doctrine, our practice imparts. "Nobody is perfect – so why get so uptight about this? People will screw up anyway." …Yeah – but I sure as heck don't want to have the Almighty Judge point His finger at me and say "The reason that person stumbled is because of the rock you put in his way."
What in God's name can you do to people in three days, to force such a change..
My personal observation- only three categories of people I've observed that have come out of that thing.
1. Moderately damaged. Gone off the deep end or attempt suicide, end up in an institution for awhile. These became the program's worst critics.
2. Mildly damaged. They are just quiet about it, and the experiences, and won't really speak out against it for one reason or another. Rare instances, may gave gotten a little good along with all the nonsense. These are the guys who say they may have gotten something, but CAN'T RECOMMEND IT.
3. SEVERELY DAMAGED. These I think are the worst. They are the self-appointed self-help "gurus", who espoused the training in the program like it was the Word of God. They recommend and push the program, despite the fact that the recruit may not "be all there" when they come out. Egotistical, arrogant- loudmouthed behavior only worse after the program than before. It is said you have to be a loud, overbearing, egotistical SOB to be the one to "live" in the lifeboat ordeal.
The leader’s pale face has gone paler. Hi voice is taut with urgency. I think I see spit flying. He is a master of dispersed eye contact, and it is as if he is speaking to everyone and no one. Throughout this harangue, he repeatedly insists that none of us, not a single one of us, has even a shred of integrity. Our word is worthless. We are dishonest. His voice rising, he says, again, "You have no integrity!"
This is how they do business in one of the sister organizations of momentus. Maybe loy should apply for the position. Could claim he has plenty of experience..
more:
I sit in anxious silence with a hundred other hopeful souls as the leader berates us for an impressive two hours straight. I must be some sort of masochist because even though I haven’t done a damn thing wrong in all the time I’ve sat in the hard plastic chair, I’m thrilled with this chastisement—no doubt meant to urge me, to urge all of us, toward some kind of life breakthrough. It is indeed a crazy new world inside this brightly-lit ballroom.
And people pay for it?
well, I did too at one time.
Sounds like a session or two in a couple of classes I paid for in der vey.
I had a few "fellowship" meetings like this..
Why in God's name, would ANYBODY want to go back to something like this..
Must satisfy some inner need. I really think people have developed a need for self induced pain.
At the beginning of the Momentus training, participants have to swear an oath not to reveal the practices that are carried on during the training.
Sounds like "lockbox" to me..
Just for starters, the trainers get together before the training begins and review the information about the people who have signed up, to figure out who is most likely to express vocal resistance to the training techniques. Then, when the training begins, and that person starts to raise objections, the trainers browbeat and harass and humiliate and bullyrag that person without mercy, until he's psychologically beaten into submission. This is all a show, to intimidate everyone else, so that nobody dares raise a voice against the training practices.
Sounds like the vey corps "training", at least in later years.
If this is NOT what happens, I'd like to hear from a "participant".
Oh, forgot, you swore an oath not to reveal..
About 14 months after I had taken the Momentus training, I looked around and saw a lot of harmful things going on. My wife and I were attending a congregation in Indianapolis. The Momentus grads had formed an "elite" group, separate from, and in their opinions superior to, Momentus nongrads. The grads bullied and badgered all nongrads into leaving the leadership team, then they changed the services from prayer and praise to God into infomercials promoting Momentus.
So much for "it's a nice program, but not for everybody.."
In my own opinion, if somebody put on an application for training and experience momentus, or lifespring, or one of the clones, I WOULD NOT HIRE THEM. Look what "they" did to CES..
You have a group that has taken this little gem of a seminar, banded together, and it is documented they badgered people to take it also. So superior, so.. elite, so much "better"- and they have the keys to the joint.
My opinion- the only way you guys are REALLY gonna fix that place is to clean house, top down.. don't know if that can happen, can't vote at least three of them out.. same as der vey..
I don't think a few "reforms" over a couple of issues or grievances will even come close to what needs to be done.
The most relevance is to those who might be in the precarious position of still being affected by this kind of stuff, still in the CES circle of influence. To those of us who aren't it's not an issue, Momentous is a rumor of a pimple on the butt of a long lost pig. To those who may be pressured to consider alternative solutions to the message of Christ, it can be made to sound like a good thing. "Try it, you just might like it".
People can like whatever they want. There's enough stuff out about Momentous to warrant discussion and repeated debate if that's what it takes to keep the pro's and cons on the table, i.e. "You just might not like it".
Or give it a rest, keeping in mind that the poor ol' CES people will probably find something else next year that will be the bright twinkle in their eye at that time. Will it stop? I don't know, the pattern seems to be to keep finding these kinds of things, God knows where. Is there a catalogue for second-rate self-help courses somewhere I don't know about?
I think it's an indication of wrong direction when churches become habitual seekers of alternative methods to the simple and powerful reality of "the risen Christ", that is, when Christian life isn't what people think it should amount to and they feel the need to dismantle and reassemble the components in ways that will bring them satisfaction and fulfillment.
"Success" in Christianity can't be artificially manufactured. Well, it can be, but it's not Christianity. The essence and core message of Christianity is a risen savior, Jesus Christ, leading and filling the life of His followers in the here and now in a real tangible way that leads the people to an ever growing and appreciated relationship with God. Applying that to life in general is what Christianity and Christian pursuits is all about.
Encouraging people in that direction does not require what Momentous is described as offering. It would be childish and silly if it wasn't for the damage reported that it does.
But maybe it is time to give it a rest. There's enough information and cross linked pages that if anyone does a little research online for themselves, they'll hear both sides of the story. The "other side" of the story has certainly been given an airing. I hope people find it.
Or give it a rest, keeping in mind that the poor ol' CES people will probably find something else next year that will be the bright twinkle in their eye at that time. Will it stop? I don't know, the pattern seems to be to keep finding these kinds of things, God knows where. Is there a catalogue for second-rate self-help courses somewhere I don't know about?
Socks,
As a person formerly associated with a group that was nominally associated with CES, I agree. The pressure to spend more money of the latest fad was a reminder of our stint in the way, but maybe worse. So many were/are satisfied with being told what to think. From where I sat, it looked rather ridiculous.
Now, I just follow Christ, wherever he leads me. After all, he promised to teach me himself, and he has not abandoned me yet.
What in God's name can you do to people in three days, to force such a change..
I didn't do Momentus. It was the 4 page hold-harmless agreement that stopped me along with the badgering by JAL. I just didn't have a good vibe about it. I was attending the local fellowship and saw what was happening to people who went. They were getting to be too damn much like WayCorp grads, if they had not literally suffered a breakdown. People were shell-shocked. The 'fruit' was rotten in my opinion.
I was very concerned about the agreement to basically put my life in their hands. I flat out said that I didn't have enough of a relationship with anyone on the team that would allow them to have full control over my situation without accountability, which I believed the hold-harmless agreement excused them from having. The whole tone of the paperwork to go through the 'experience' required much from me and nothing from them. It was a red-flag situation for me. I questioned the methods that necessitated a hold-harmless agreement and I was very concerned that no one had sufficient training to deal with psychological issues that might surface. To me, the whole thing seemed very toxic. I was also privy to a little gathering of Momentus 'grads' that showed such an utter disregard for other people that I came to the conclusion that nothing good could come from this 'training'. What was even more interesting was the attempts to defend the very bad behavior. I ended up telling them that if this is what Momentus turns a person into, I wanted no part of it.
Now what in God's name can you do to people in three days to force such a change?
I think that's the wrong question. I can't do anything to force that change in someone else's life, and God won't. What they did(do) in Momentus is force you through agreement and then intimidation (once you realized what you had done) to hold you to that agreement to acquiesce to them. These people believed honoring the agreement superceded the fact that they were duped into making the agreement. I refused before it ever came to that, because I felt I couldn't give informed consent. For me, it was that simple.
One of the things I said to JAL was that I was concerned that Momentus approached people as fundamentally flawed human beings and therefore needed to be torn down to be built up into something better. I told him that process cannot be done in 3, 4 or even 7 days. It is a lifelong process that if you are planning to use that radical a procedure to jumpstart the ongoing process, then there needed to be sufficient follow up with the attendees. That was something I had not seen. People were being turned loose too raw and exposed without any real closure, or anyone to turn to.
I have seen people change in the course of 3 days and one of them was me. One of the primary factors in that change was the willingness to meet people where they are and go from there.
I think maybe that's what I see here- the arrrogance. The "I'm so special, I can HANDLE it" attitude that SOME only previously could get in way corps training.
To the best of my knowledge, CES has had no corps training.. until momentus. So "economical", do what der vey took three years to do, in three days..
It seems that either people love it, are fairly indifferent, or utterly despise it.
I looked on the mother organizations website. They claim they did some kind of "independant" investigation of the effects of their training.. then they quickly go to bar charts showing the supposed satisfaction rating of those who took the course.
Ninety five percent claimed it was a good deal.
Five percent who took it claimed they felt "attacked" by the staff..
two percent said they felt attacked by FELLOW STUDENTS.
HARDLY independant, or partial data, in my opinion.
I could take a group of one hundred people, and in three days, with proper pavlovian "conditioning", have 95 percent of them enthusiastically endorse my product.
Anywhere from five to seven percent of the people who took the "seminar" are damaged, immediately, by their own admission. Unless you can define "I felt I was attacked" otherwise.
I would say, let's see what it does in the long term, to a person's personality, to a business, to a marriage, to a MINISTRY.
I dunno.. if people really want something like this, why not join the Marines? Survive boot camp, stick it out, and you may actually make a good living with it.. get a few benefits..
I dunno.. if people really want something like this, why not join the Marines? Survive boot camp, stick it out, and you may actually make a good living with it.. get a few benefits..
I agree.
I've been doing some research on personality disorders and a significant number of people with borderline personality disorder (BPD) end up in cults. That may be why Momentus is seen as such a good thing. Remove some of the dysfunction without removing the desire to stay in the cult. Although I can't see anyone who is a low functioning BPD being able to survive the weekend.
I went to one seminar on the Momentus program (I think I also wrote to the guy who initiated it -- and maybe bought one of it's books) about 20 yrs ago. I remember thinking -- This thing is bizarre! But I had to check it out because a very dear friend of mine had recommended it to me. I still love the guy but, I had to pass on his suggestion that I enroll in the program. Too cultish for my taste buds.
I went to one seminar on the Momentus program (I think I also wrote to the guy who initiated it -- and maybe bought one of it's books) about 20 yrs ago. I remember thinking -- This thing is bizarre! But I had to check it out because a very dear friend of mine had recommended it to me. I still love the guy but, I had to pass on his suggestion that I enroll in the program. Too cultish for my taste buds.
i wouldn't say it is cultish. there wasn't any push to keep you as a member or anything like that. people were
free to speak their mind, and leave at anytime.
this type of training is not for all. but some do get a lot from the training. i did.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
14
71
30
Popular Days
Feb 15
23
Mar 9
22
Feb 14
17
Mar 1
17
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 11 posts
WordWolf 14 posts
Ham 71 posts
caribousam 30 posts
Popular Days
Feb 15 2007
23 posts
Mar 9 2007
22 posts
Feb 14 2007
17 posts
Mar 1 2007
17 posts
Popular Posts
GrouchoMarxJr
I must say that it IS interesting to see the people who promoted "Momentus" having such difficulties themselves now... ...Maybe it's just a coincidence that the folks who were so heavily into this ps
caribousam
wordwolf,
I never heard anyone say that this program is above reproach. To put any program on
such a pedestal seems foolish. I reserve the "above reproach" label for God and for Jesus.
There is potential for harm in many many activities in life, including Momentus/Vision Quest.
Nobody is happy when "perfectly healthy" people are harmed by a program that is looking to do
good. To hear that some have been harmed is not by itself reason to throw the program in the
dumpster. The point I am trying to make is that growth often/usually takes risk, though sometimes
the immediate results of risks taken don't seem positive. It seems that perspective and attitude
seem to be the biggest factors in where we go in life.
Wordwolf, I am permanently leaving this GS topic, which has run its course for me. It
has been nice chatting with you.
Regards,
CS
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Really?
I remember the Tylenol incident a "few" years ago. From what I remember, at least ONE "otherwise perfectly healthy" person, who merely had a headache DIED.
So, what did the manufacturer do..
"well, it was only one death, a few got sick. Let's just have business as usual, and insist that the customers sign a hold harmless agreement before we sell them the product."
No- they pulled Tylenol off the shelf like it was cyanide.. went to great lengths to recall the product, at great expense.
Yeah- a "money grubbing drug company" as some people would call them.
And they have more "CHRISTIAN" morals than a group that espouses christian beliefs.
Or merely shrouds itself in them, in name only.
"what's a murder, a few suicides, people going in the loony bin. Can't put it in the dumpster, look at all the good it did.."
This is SUPPOSED to be a "self-help" seminar.. people just want a little more focus, maybe- maybe a few more communication skills.
Maybe they want a little more confidence in themselves.
"well, let's just break them down.. REALLY show them how they need a savior.."
I thought that was the devil's job.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
hammeroni,
I had said that I wouldn't be back in this discussion, but I am back.
The tylenol analogy is not a good one. In the case of tylenol, the product was directly shown to be
the result of someone's death.
I don't think you can prove that there were any murders or suicides as a result of the training. Your wild
speculations make for titillating reading, but don't do much good at getting at the heart of the matter.
regards,
CS
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/6/634.html
There are several other similar incidents of suicide.
When the server for the other website I found gets straightened out, I'll post the other documented sources.
So much for myth and "speculation".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rich
Hay wordwolf
I posted this long ago maybe you didn't get a chance to read it.
The Stuff going on here ,GS, is no differant than MO or VQ. Whats your puprpose of posting on these threads? To get some anial retentive idiots to see what they are doing is wrong and to protect others from thier curses?
The words printed are very pointed Alot of pressure, anger, hurt, vitial words, rejected souls, fighting for understanding, logic for whats been going on, looking for the truth from or about the ces bunch.
, by giving input to each other or sharing experiences. Look how some of them are responded to. Both good and bad. And once in awhile making no sense.
Any instruction can be used for good or bad. These people, ces, didn't start with MO/VQ. they started a long time ago learning how to manipulate and then took a tool and turned it to thier maniplative advantage.
Look M/VQ are a program that has effects both good and bad and the bad side is very unfortinate.
My marriage has effects both good and bad. Mostly good i'm glad to say because I have learned how to give more and not be taking. Another way of putting it is to make it less about me.
The anial ones at ces don't get it. They are about them and only them. thier actions paint the picture clear.
This a very resent true fact from one of the blind anial ones.
Long letter written to them about some things that might give them insight and the response was as follows. " Do we agree that what God says matters? And if so, do the 10 commandments matter? What about the 9 th commandment about not bearing false testimony against a neighor? Does that matter? Or is it okay to say a lot of untrue things about someone in the name of expressing one's opion, or because there are also a few true things that were stated?"
Then the person states that they are hurt deeply. I posted about this letter on one of the other threads.
If there was one true fact in that letter it was important. But it was stated that there were more than one. I read the letter and there were many points, actualy didn't find anything that I didn't agree with, I found it very true. Then they quote the 10 commands. using the 9th. But don't address " don't steal". These guys have abused ces credit cards, traveled all over the place for personal business to buy personal items and vacation alot. All on those contributed dollars. I think someone tried to address thier missusing funds at one time and they were told to leave.
The 9th!!! what about a bod member going some where for pleasure and when confronted said it was to minister. Yep actually happened. I was on the pleasure end and was amazed at the staement they made.
I guess what I'm trying to get across is lets get back on focuse with ces/stf. The MO/VQ stuff is really irrevelent to what caused these other threads and seems to take the focuse off the true culprits.
God Bless
R
So maybe those 10 commandment beams in thier own eye should be operated on first.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
thanks, rich
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
The most relevance is to those who might be in the precarious position of still being affected by this kind of stuff, still in the CES circle of influence. To those of us who aren't it's not an issue, Momentous is a rumor of a pimple on the butt of a long lost pig. To those who may be pressured to consider alternative solutions to the message of Christ, it can be made to sound like a good thing. "Try it, you just might like it".
People can like whatever they want. There's enough stuff out about Momentous to warrant discussion and repeated debate if that's what it takes to keep the pro's and cons on the table, i.e. "You just might not like it".
Or give it a rest, keeping in mind that the poor ol' CES people will probably find something else next year that will be the bright twinkle in their eye at that time. Will it stop? I don't know, the pattern seems to be to keep finding these kinds of things, God knows where. Is there a catalogue for second-rate self-help courses somewhere I don't know about?
I think it's an indication of wrong direction when churches become habitual seekers of alternative methods to the simple and powerful reality of "the risen Christ", that is, when Christian life isn't what people think it should amount to and they feel the need to dismantle and reassemble the components in ways that will bring them satisfaction and fulfillment.
"Success" in Christianity can't be artificially manufactured. Well, it can be, but it's not Christianity. The essence and core message of Christianity is a risen savior, Jesus Christ, leading and filling the life of His followers in the here and now in a real tangible way that leads the people to an ever growing and appreciated relationship with God. Applying that to life in general is what Christianity and Christian pursuits is all about.
Encouraging people in that direction does not require what Momentous is described as offering. It would be childish and silly if it wasn't for the damage reported that it does.
But maybe it is time to give it a rest. There's enough information and cross linked pages that if anyone does a little research online for themselves, they'll hear both sides of the story. The "other side" of the story has certainly been given an airing. I hope people find it.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Might be right Socks. Next year, might be another self "help" seminar, and they'll be standing awe-struck in the shadow of a few great flunkys, yet one more time, "you just HAFTA try this one.."
At least we know their stand on momentus, from statements of some of their membership. Maybe that's enough here.
God have mercy on them..
one "fix" after another.
To me it looks worse than a heroin addiction.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[That's the net result of dismissing all problems WITH this program, its execution,
and the "aggressive marketing" categorically-that the program is NEVER to blame, but some
OTHER source (the victims conned into taking it) are ALWAYS to blame.
(Again, not all people who took it feel they were damaged. Bully for them- I'm addressing
the victims.)]
[There are degrees and degrees of risk. Leaving one's home contains risks.Blindfolding yourself and running around on the highway contains risks.
It's amazing I need to spell this out-again- but the issue is
"DO THE BENEFITS OUTWEIGH THE RISKS, and CAN WE ACHEIVE THE BENEFITS WITH FEWER RISKS?"]
[However, the response so far has been to sweep the claims of harm under the rug-
or just to try to remove any legal responsibility for the harm inflicted from the program that
inflicted the harm.
If those are my ONLY two choices- and any HEALTHY group would at least CONSIDER the THIRD
option of a COMPLETE OVERHAUL-
then I'd rather "throw the PROGRAM in the dumpster"
than the current ces/stfi approach-
which is to throw the PEOPLE in the dumpster.]
[And the point I made earlier is that all risk =\= growth.And relabelling damage into "growth" in no way makes it growth.
Then again, some will argue ALL experiences = growth, and that means that digging your
way out of the rubble of the World Trade Center, or surviving rocket attacks in Iraq as part
of a convoy both produce growth. Under that model, Momentus always produces growth.
However, in each case, does the growth justify the risks involved?]
[What's that behind me? Feels like smoke being blown.
I almost miss when people who found me frustrating and a trial actually ADMITTED it
and didn't pretend they existed on some more profound spiritual plateau...]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Reading over these recent points made by WordWolf and Socks – got me thinking about the value Jesus put on those who believe in Him. There isn't any criteria to meet to enter His kingdom, like being spiritually ready or mature – just have a childlike faith. No one is even remotely considered expendable – for He says there will be a terrible judgment upon anyone that would cause them to stumble.
Matthew 18:1-7 NASB
1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus and said, "Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"
2 And He called a child to Himself and set him before them,
3 and said, "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 "Whoever then humbles himself as this child, he is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 "And whoever receives one such child in My name receives Me;
6 but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 "Woe to the world because of its stumbling blocks! For it is inevitable that stumbling blocks come; but woe to that man through whom the stumbling block comes!
To me this speaks volumes on what a minister's attitude should be – or any Christian for that matter who is seriously intent on working for the Lord Jesus Christ. We need to keep in mind the effect…the influence that our character, our actions, our doctrine, our practice imparts. "Nobody is perfect – so why get so uptight about this? People will screw up anyway." …Yeah – but I sure as heck don't want to have the Almighty Judge point His finger at me and say "The reason that person stumbled is because of the rock you put in his way."
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
A three day seminar. Just three days..
What in God's name can you do to people in three days, to force such a change..
My personal observation- only three categories of people I've observed that have come out of that thing.
1. Moderately damaged. Gone off the deep end or attempt suicide, end up in an institution for awhile. These became the program's worst critics.
2. Mildly damaged. They are just quiet about it, and the experiences, and won't really speak out against it for one reason or another. Rare instances, may gave gotten a little good along with all the nonsense. These are the guys who say they may have gotten something, but CAN'T RECOMMEND IT.
3. SEVERELY DAMAGED. These I think are the worst. They are the self-appointed self-help "gurus", who espoused the training in the program like it was the Word of God. They recommend and push the program, despite the fact that the recruit may not "be all there" when they come out. Egotistical, arrogant- loudmouthed behavior only worse after the program than before. It is said you have to be a loud, overbearing, egotistical SOB to be the one to "live" in the lifeboat ordeal.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
http://www.rickross.com/reference/landmark/landmark87.html
Sound like one of loy's abusive tirades?
Nope.
This is how they do business in one of the sister organizations of momentus. Maybe loy should apply for the position. Could claim he has plenty of experience..
more:
And people pay for it?
well, I did too at one time.
Sounds like a session or two in a couple of classes I paid for in der vey.
I had a few "fellowship" meetings like this..
Why in God's name, would ANYBODY want to go back to something like this..
Must satisfy some inner need. I really think people have developed a need for self induced pain.
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
"I think I see spit flying"
Gruesome.
Unsanitary..
I hope he flossed..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
from http://www.cephasministry.com/momentus_3.html
Sounds like "lockbox" to me..Sounds like the vey corps "training", at least in later years.
If this is NOT what happens, I'd like to hear from a "participant".
Oh, forgot, you swore an oath not to reveal..
So much for "it's a nice program, but not for everybody.."
In my own opinion, if somebody put on an application for training and experience momentus, or lifespring, or one of the clones, I WOULD NOT HIRE THEM. Look what "they" did to CES..
You have a group that has taken this little gem of a seminar, banded together, and it is documented they badgered people to take it also. So superior, so.. elite, so much "better"- and they have the keys to the joint.
My opinion- the only way you guys are REALLY gonna fix that place is to clean house, top down.. don't know if that can happen, can't vote at least three of them out.. same as der vey..
I don't think a few "reforms" over a couple of issues or grievances will even come close to what needs to be done.
I would like to be proven wrong..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChasUFarley
(see emphasis added by this poster, above.)
Gee, ya think? :blink:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
blarney
Socks,
As a person formerly associated with a group that was nominally associated with CES, I agree. The pressure to spend more money of the latest fad was a reminder of our stint in the way, but maybe worse. So many were/are satisfied with being told what to think. From where I sat, it looked rather ridiculous.
Now, I just follow Christ, wherever he leads me. After all, he promised to teach me himself, and he has not abandoned me yet.
Cheers,
Blarney
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
I didn't do Momentus. It was the 4 page hold-harmless agreement that stopped me along with the badgering by JAL. I just didn't have a good vibe about it. I was attending the local fellowship and saw what was happening to people who went. They were getting to be too damn much like WayCorp grads, if they had not literally suffered a breakdown. People were shell-shocked. The 'fruit' was rotten in my opinion.
I was very concerned about the agreement to basically put my life in their hands. I flat out said that I didn't have enough of a relationship with anyone on the team that would allow them to have full control over my situation without accountability, which I believed the hold-harmless agreement excused them from having. The whole tone of the paperwork to go through the 'experience' required much from me and nothing from them. It was a red-flag situation for me. I questioned the methods that necessitated a hold-harmless agreement and I was very concerned that no one had sufficient training to deal with psychological issues that might surface. To me, the whole thing seemed very toxic. I was also privy to a little gathering of Momentus 'grads' that showed such an utter disregard for other people that I came to the conclusion that nothing good could come from this 'training'. What was even more interesting was the attempts to defend the very bad behavior. I ended up telling them that if this is what Momentus turns a person into, I wanted no part of it.
I think that's the wrong question. I can't do anything to force that change in someone else's life, and God won't. What they did(do) in Momentus is force you through agreement and then intimidation (once you realized what you had done) to hold you to that agreement to acquiesce to them. These people believed honoring the agreement superceded the fact that they were duped into making the agreement. I refused before it ever came to that, because I felt I couldn't give informed consent. For me, it was that simple.
One of the things I said to JAL was that I was concerned that Momentus approached people as fundamentally flawed human beings and therefore needed to be torn down to be built up into something better. I told him that process cannot be done in 3, 4 or even 7 days. It is a lifelong process that if you are planning to use that radical a procedure to jumpstart the ongoing process, then there needed to be sufficient follow up with the attendees. That was something I had not seen. People were being turned loose too raw and exposed without any real closure, or anyone to turn to.
I have seen people change in the course of 3 days and one of them was me. One of the primary factors in that change was the willingness to meet people where they are and go from there.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
blarney
Tzaia,
I heard that the seminar was utterly brutal. I too thought the agreement was a red flag.
Blarney
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Thanks for the contribution Tzaia.
I think maybe that's what I see here- the arrrogance. The "I'm so special, I can HANDLE it" attitude that SOME only previously could get in way corps training.
To the best of my knowledge, CES has had no corps training.. until momentus. So "economical", do what der vey took three years to do, in three days..
It seems that either people love it, are fairly indifferent, or utterly despise it.
I looked on the mother organizations website. They claim they did some kind of "independant" investigation of the effects of their training.. then they quickly go to bar charts showing the supposed satisfaction rating of those who took the course.
Ninety five percent claimed it was a good deal.
Five percent who took it claimed they felt "attacked" by the staff..
two percent said they felt attacked by FELLOW STUDENTS.
HARDLY independant, or partial data, in my opinion.
I could take a group of one hundred people, and in three days, with proper pavlovian "conditioning", have 95 percent of them enthusiastically endorse my product.
Anywhere from five to seven percent of the people who took the "seminar" are damaged, immediately, by their own admission. Unless you can define "I felt I was attacked" otherwise.
I would say, let's see what it does in the long term, to a person's personality, to a business, to a marriage, to a MINISTRY.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I dunno.. if people really want something like this, why not join the Marines? Survive boot camp, stick it out, and you may actually make a good living with it.. get a few benefits..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
I agree.
I've been doing some research on personality disorders and a significant number of people with borderline personality disorder (BPD) end up in cults. That may be why Momentus is seen as such a good thing. Remove some of the dysfunction without removing the desire to stay in the cult. Although I can't see anyone who is a low functioning BPD being able to survive the weekend.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
I went to one seminar on the Momentus program (I think I also wrote to the guy who initiated it -- and maybe bought one of it's books) about 20 yrs ago. I remember thinking -- This thing is bizarre! But I had to check it out because a very dear friend of mine had recommended it to me. I still love the guy but, I had to pass on his suggestion that I enroll in the program. Too cultish for my taste buds.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
i wouldn't say it is cultish. there wasn't any push to keep you as a member or anything like that. people were
free to speak their mind, and leave at anytime.
this type of training is not for all. but some do get a lot from the training. i did.
why would you say it was cultish ?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.