CES and Momentous

[undone]

Oh, heck, who's surprised? We've seen it demonstrated right on this thread.

People have popped in out of nowhere to attack any dissent,

and NOT with reasoned discussion, most of them....] (Quote Wordwolf)

Parting thought before the dissent:

A stitch in time saves nine

THREAD LIGHTLY..............

Bye,

U. Done

[socks]

I think people who need a good head knocking to get their minds right should have a place to go to get it.

[Ham]

I can live with that.. I just wish they didn't recommend it for the rest of us who don't need it.

Why don't they do what they did in the old days, go off and join the French Foreign Legion or something..

[vickles]

Socks I can agree with that but that is what psych units, therapists, psychiatrists, etc can determine if need be. This is something that the professionals (psych units and etc) went to school for and know what they are doing.

Momentus to me reminds me of a bunch of people on a big power trip trying to run down others to get them to break, mentally. Once the others break they are putty in these power hungry hands.

Whats sad is that the ones that do break mentally and are putty in their hands are most likely the mentally weak. Then they turn and do the same thing to others thinking how strong and wonderful they are.

[Ham]

The idea that J.L., M.G., et al NEEDED a good head knocking says a lot. Maybe they need to go back a couple times for some "retraining" if it is all so great..

Put all three and minions in the "lifeboat" exercise..

Or maybe that is what they just did. Ah, who to throw out..

I wonder if the board will now require the signing of a hold harmless agreement as a requirement to hold office in that place..

that would take care of those pesky lawsuits.

With all the confrontations, maneuvering, tossing out of the boat.. to me, it looks like they took the momentus book and made "momentus, da movie"..

[Ham]

Just so much office politics, office "games" with a very thin christian veneer. The "commercial" version of their precious seminar teaches people how to REALLY play the game, no holds barred. Put people in a "lifeboat", and decide who's staying.. must be as much "fun" as watching two cats tied together, hung over a clothes line.

[rich]

IT DOESN'T TAKE A GENIUS TO SPOT A GOAT IN A FLOCK OF SHEEP!!

[Ham]

You'd think, wouldn't you..

[vickles]

Now I've got this picture in my mind of a flock of sheep with a goat in the middle. Help, I can't get it out of my mind...

[Ham]

Yeah.. but Rich, you bring up a very good point about goats. How is it that some people escape unscathed from this thing.. others, well.

The "goats" that entered the goat rehab called momentus, emerged as.. (no suprise) bigger and "better" GOATS. More convinced, more egotistical, more arrogant.. with more focus.

I think the sheep that entered it either got hurt, or simply came through unscathed.

Goats can be pretty good at "confrontation" you know.. they can offer vile, nasty "prophecies" to make people tow the line.. threats that people are being "unbilblical" and such.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[caribousam]

[i wonder if this is an INTENTIONAL error-

as in "I'm looking for excuses to dismiss criticism, so I shall pretend that critics have ever objected

to someone having even a single positive experience with Momentus when they have expressed

no such thing";

or a psychological BLIND-SPOT-

as in "I can't see why anyone would care so much about Momentus and still not like

Momentus- they must object to people benefitting from it if they don't like Momentus..."

I can't tell from here.

Either way, it's ERROR- but one is accidental and one is intentional.]

[Any training is bound to have someone who doesn't like it.

That's a non-issue, and pretending it is not is just another smokescreen-

whether intentional or accidental.

There's a big difference between "I don't like the way they do this"

and

"people were being pressured to enter, those running it refused to explain what to

expect, and some of those who took it suffered long-term psychological damage,

and a LOT of those who didn't demonstrated negative personality traits".

Seems a LOT of the people who graduated this "program" and didn't just collapse

decide this thing is right next to the hand of God,

and all criticism is bogus, and all objections must be shouted down,

and even questioning it is forbidden.

Oh, heck, who's surprised? We've seen it demonstrated right on this thread.

People have popped in out of nowhere to attack any dissent,

and NOT with reasoned discussion, most of them....]

Wordwolf,

It sounds like you are apt at doing exactly what you criticize others of....

Nobody has ever said "this thing is right next to the hand of God." I have

said that this training course and one's similar to it have helped many people

a great deal, and have great potential benefit. These types of training aren't

perfect, but for me the potential benefit outweighs the risk.

No smokescreen here - just an attempt at honestly looking at the training.

I've been to one training as a participant, so my breadth of knowledge may

not be complete, but there are others who have had similar results as myself.

Cheers,

CS

[caribousam]

[i wonder if this is an INTENTIONAL error-

as in "I'm looking for excuses to dismiss criticism, so I shall pretend that critics have ever objected

to someone having even a single positive experience with Momentus when they have expressed

no such thing";

or a psychological BLIND-SPOT-

as in "I can't see why anyone would care so much about Momentus and still not like

Momentus- they must object to people benefitting from it if they don't like Momentus..."

I can't tell from here.

Either way, it's ERROR- but one is accidental and one is intentional.]

[Any training is bound to have someone who doesn't like it.

That's a non-issue, and pretending it is not is just another smokescreen-

whether intentional or accidental.

There's a big difference between "I don't like the way they do this"

and

"people were being pressured to enter, those running it refused to explain what to

expect, and some of those who took it suffered long-term psychological damage,

and a LOT of those who didn't demonstrated negative personality traits".

Seems a LOT of the people who graduated this "program" and didn't just collapse

decide this thing is right next to the hand of God,

and all criticism is bogus, and all objections must be shouted down,

and even questioning it is forbidden.

Oh, heck, who's surprised? We've seen it demonstrated right on this thread.

People have popped in out of nowhere to attack any dissent,

and NOT with reasoned discussion, most of them....]

One point is that I was trying to make is that it is unfortunate that some GS folks

are very one sided when discussing topics like this. Sure, I understand that many were

part of unhealthy organizations that more or less squelched free thought and speech. But

it ain't heakthy to swing to the other extreme of just talking extemparaneously without

a whole lot of deeper considersation, acknowledgement of conscience, and listening to

that spirit of God.

Dissent is fine, But keep it civil unless there is some burning reason not to.

-CS

[Ham]

Look what it did to CES.. all the top dogs there have had "THE EXPERIENCE". Wanna hold office in that organization? better get with the program..

I saw what a commercial version of this kind of seminar did to my boss.. no BETTER than before, not IMPROVED- just more arrogant, more aggressive. More, well, GOAT. "errrr, I'm GOD here.."

I had to tiptoe around that crap for over a year.. and I won't even begin to mention what it did to the business. I didn't sign the hold harmless, maybe *I* should sue for damages..

My opinion, NO MONEY, NO AMOUNT OF PERSONAL SUCCESS, gained for people whom I have observed who went through this seminar, is worth the price paid.

Spiritually, I'd be better off unemployed and homeless somewhere.

Edited March 12, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[caribousam]

CES/STF has had several major mistakes: Momentus/VisionQuest used as a bludgeoning tool against people without their permission instead of a person using it on themself; Personal Prophecy is used in the same bludgeoning manner against someone like EL without her request or permission; getting in way too deep in personal and marital issues and intertwining these with the day to day relationships of the core people and the running of the ministry. I have personally enjoyed how the "leaders" can be so sinful and broken and yet remain qualified to lead, yet they can condescendingly inform others of their disqualification to serve because of their shortcomings. Then there is all of the psychoanalysis and prescribing of psychotropic drugs going on because of course you are broken, Jesus cannot heal you and you need these things just to get through your day. I wonder who pays for all of this professional help? Maybe there is lots more to come out eh?

Ya wanna come to my fellowship? PUSH, PUSH, PUSH. Hey we got a great program for ya, PUSH PUSH PUSH. Just don't expect

any results from Jesus. My shrink can help you more than him. PUSH Want some xxxxxxx man? I got a few extra. PUSH

gilligan,

I never saw the training used as a bludgeoning tool. I think that your a mixing CES/STFI issues with Vision Quest/ Momentus. Separate organizations. There was some psychoanalysis to understand better our thoughts, intents, and motives. Some are uneasy that the persons doing the analysis weren't "certified." That is an understandable concern, but does not mean that folks doing such analysis were not qualified to do so. Sometimes qualifications are smokescreens for weakness.

I wan't pushed into the training. Someone spoke to me about it, I had some interest, and discussion went forward, etc. It was a pretty normal course of dialogue. It is usually not good to do something that you don't really want to do (although this is not always true).

-CS

[caribousam]

tell us about the drugs being prescribed please.... and the psychoanalysis too.

rhino,

I never saw any drugs being prescribed...that's ridiculous.

As I previously said, there was analysis goign on about peoples', thoughts, intents and motivations...

but in the end each participant has to work it all out and sift through possible nuggets

of understanding.

It was not a training that handed out truth to people. Life doesn't work that way. Truth takes time and often

a lot of effort to properly digest. And while it may be said that "Jesus is truth", working this out in one's life

ususally takes a lot of time and effort, even when "the truth" resides within us.

[Ham]

Some are uneasy that the persons doing the analysis weren't "certified." That is an understandable concern, but does not mean that folks doing such analysis were not qualified to do so.

Perhaps an understatement.

The real "big" momentus guy doesn't even publish on his website where he got his BACHELLOR'S degree from. Or did he even get one? His claim to fame: he is an "ordained minister". From WHERE?

There is one person I know with a bachellor's degree in psychology that I would barely trust to time a rat as he made his way through the maze..

But somebody who won't even reveal where he got his "training".

"well, I've been around.."

Holy smokes..

have a headache? I can fix it with a little "procedure". heck, it's cheap.. no claims of sterility, however.

Qualifications?

"I've been around..."

Make sure you bring cash, in advance.

Oh, just one "little" thing, this little waiver..

"your pen or mine?"

Edited March 12, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[caribousam]

Personally, I think the "crap" that people think they have on the inside is really great beauty.

Don't get me wrong, I know people can be twisted, etc..

But I think a lot of this kind of "training" does little more than confuse someone that their uniqueness and individuality is some kind of evil, to be stamped out with 18 pound bible.

If somebody has REAL issues, they don't need momentus, they need a psychiatrist.

My opinion at least.

Diversity and uniqueness is something that the Bible promotes. Real issues can be dealed with in many ways.

I've knows people who have been going to therapy for 20 years or more, and sometimes it seems like the

greatest beenfactor is the therapist - financially and emotionally. I guess I'm no fan of therapists...though I'm sure

there are lots of good ones out there. I've succesfully gotten through all kinds of junk in my life without "professional"

therapy. Sometimes there are several or many ways to move life's mountains.

[caribousam]

1broken1...Oh, c'mon now...who wants the old fashioned approach to living a Christian life when they can have intense psychological mind scrambling to send them into therapy.

oh groucho...who wants to take a risk when we can merrily sleep walk through our days, ignoring the troubles that are in us, around us, and in the world?! Let's just go on cruise control in our good jobs, wiht our perfect families, in our wealthy land of milk and honey !! It's all good !!

What's that "old fashioned" approach you talk about? Is that the one taught in mainstream churches in the US? The ones whose memberships are in steady decline...wonder why that might be ?

[Ham]

The way I think about it:

If somebody doesn't have qualifications, they are PRACTICING, on YOU. Not "practicing" as in what a real doctor does, more like, pre-game "practice".

If they HIDE their experience and qualifications, and I can EASILY follow the path of dead bodies to their front door.. with the exception of ONE person I personally know here.. the other "procedures" have been an abject FAILURE. Ended with unchecked egotism, unbridled arrogance, divorce.. hatred masked as love.. hypocrisy, delusions of Moghood..

give me a different logical reason for the conclusion I am forming.

"God works in mysterious ways.."

I'm really glad I wasn't really far up the TWI totem pole.. somebody probably would've tried to push the thing on me, and I'd a tried it..

Thank God for the little things in life..

[Ham]

My other thought along these lines is, why is lack of qualifications, lack of training the RULE among these self "help" groups, rather than the EXCEPTION?

The community college I went to.. and it was not a large one- EVERY math professor had a MASTER'S degree in math, which over-qualified them for what they were teaching, and 9 out of 10 were currently working on their DOCTORATE.

The university I'm in now- EVERY math professor has a Doctorate, period.

I didn't have to sign a hold harmless agreement with the university when I enrolled, either.

Lack of education among these self "help" groups appears to the rule.

[rascal]

Hey Sam, I wonder where you got your information concerning churches in membership decline?

Yes, absolutely, Life is good, families prosper, God`s blessings abounds in our lives. What could possibly bother you about that? Does it make you mad to see God`s hand of blessing working outside of the parameters that you have defined?

Why would God`s blessing upon people be a sign of folks being asleep?

It is my experience that churches are bursting at the seems ... having to split and start new chapters left and right. There is every flavor for whatever suits your need. There are groups that focus on singles, groups that focus on families, couples, older folks. There are bible study groups...outreach groups...homebound peoples outreach...The spirit of God is abounding, as they work with one another assisting each other on their journey in their spiritual growth

Is it wrong because it isn`t your path? Who are you to decide?

Have you been out in your community and actually met folks instead of listening to what someone else SAYS about them ...it might suprise you.

[rich]

My other thought along these lines is, why is lack of qualifications, lack of training the RULE among these self "help" groups, rather than the EXCEPTION?

The community college I went to.. and it was not a large one- EVERY math professor had a MASTER'S degree in math, which over-qualified them for what they were teaching, and 9 out of 10 were currently working on their DOCTORATE.

The university I'm in now- EVERY math professor has a Doctorate, period.

I didn't have to sign a hold harmless agreement with the university when I enrolled, either.

Lack of education among these self "help" groups appears to the rule.

I don't think Joyce meyer has a degree, I thinks her simple life experience approch to the Bible is great. Some of her stuff has sure helped me.

Didn't mg go for the big doctorate degree. Why? So he could show off his intellect and be more believable in the pp research and stuff.

Give me someone with a big heart and knows how to love. thats someone who I would listen to first. The boys of ces etc have so much head knowledge and no practical aplication. One even admitted to me that he wouldn't know how to act, be or understand how to have compassion in a certain siduation. Ended by saying that he couldn't do what we had done.

So take the old degree's and oh well

If you get to thinkin' your a person of some considerable influence, try ordering someone else's dog around

Edited March 12, 2007 by rich

[Ham]

Give me someone with a big heart and knows how to love. thats someone who I would listen to first.

No argument here, but they are not gonna work on my brain unless they have more than good wishes.

Stepping over the line into this relm of psychological "conditioning" is something a loving person would not do, in my opinion, given the track record of "results".

To put someone in a "survival" exercise, with little more than a few people standing by with at best CPR training is reprehensible.

[Ham]

To put the question where it REALLY belongs.. to the "instructors" of this thing.. "WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO HIDE???"

"what ARE your qualifications?"

"WHO ordained YOU?"

"What DEGREE, and WHERE DID YOU ACQUIRE IT?"

"How are YOU qualified to handle people who go stark raving mad?"

Don't tell me, "well, I did some consultant work for Disney.."

Yeah.. I shook Micky Mouses hand once..

"well, I did some work in corporate america.."

Well. That explains why things are soooooo screwed up.

[Ham]

If you get to thinkin' your a person of some considerable influence, try ordering someone else's dog around

Sorry. I'm my OWN guru. Can't claim that of anybody else. Just look at the little thingy under my avatar.

<<<<<<<

I would hope that I am some good kind of influence, at least as it relates to REALITY here. But in the end, everybody's their own master, if they choose, at the end of the day. You'll just have to order your own dog around.