yo ducttape, Christ was all over the place in the training. Christ was not explicitly mentioned in the training pamphlet. The training was not reserved for Christians only. Most in the training were Christians.
So a couple questions for you - is it possible that there could exist types of training that are good for some, but for others - potentially hurtful ? If this is the case, is the training "bad?" Stop ranting and give this some thought....
GS - a land of whiners and complainers !!! (and now I'm becoming infected too!!!)
I would have to ask what is the goal of the training/education and who is the target audience?...And just because Christ is mentioned frequently doesn't necessarily make something Christian. Jesus Christ is mentioned quite frequently in PFAL but that was mere window dressing – it's indeed mystifying how a student can sit through the PFAL Class hearing Christ's name so much and yet life down the road for the grad is one of TWI leadership taking the place of the absent Christ. Paul did warn Christians of people preaching a different Jesus or gospel [II Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9].
Another thing that concerns me is how a group will put together "the latest and greatest Bible truth in a seminar guaranteed to change your life or your money back" – this bothers me when I recall Jesus' own words, "Freely you have received – freely give" [Matthew 10:8]. I guess we need to update His directive to: "Charge a fair market price for anything bearing My logo…and be sure to get the Release of Liability forms signed…in triplicate."
Can a training program be helpful to some and hurtful to others? Sure – I think of things like the military [they'd boot me out of boot camp the first week], a cooking class [if you ate my cooking you'd be hurt too], a masters program in economics [that right there would kill me]…Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.
…And there's one other aspect of something that may have harmful effects. This may or may not apply to you…so take it for what it's worth…Sometimes people don't realize the harm they've sustained during an experience – especially to the mind. And in order to fix a problem you must first be aware that there is a problem…I left TWI twenty years ago over intellectual reasons [doctrinal issues and the freedom to think and disagree] – and life has been great! Now I've been coming to GSC for only a year. Wow – it's quite an adventure – I've gone even deeper – exposing pockets of their residual poison - their insidious doctrines and mindset had infiltrated and polluted my faith…This time around as I review my TWI experience and talk to others at GSC – my beef with TWI is a lot more than just intellectual issues now. The moral issues loom so large. Doctrinal stuff…well…so many things we could argue about all day long…but I don't see any room for debate on the clear moral standards of the Bible. I'm not suggesting there's any moral issues with CES or any offshoots I'm just using my issues with TWI as an example – what I am suggesting is you may have taken some serious hits to your intellect/emotions/faith – but just haven't realized it yet.
So what's my point? May I suggest you lay off any promotional ads of training programs for awhile…My take on GSC is that it's a place where people come together to sort out their experience with a religious group and in a collective effort now experience healing, understanding and growth…But that's just my take on it. A great place for any doctrinal haggling is in the Doctrinal forum. I even started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God after thinking on some of the things discussed about CES and prophecy. Come – join the party.
Please explain to me what the Whole Momentus thing is all about? Is it specifically a Christian thing, or a pyschological thing? How does it fit in with the Bible?
Love always in Christ,
Joe
Here's a quick primer.
Here's some stuff off previous posts on Momentus.
"These folks are NOT mental health professionals. Their group identifies itself with being a "Christian" based organization. By going the route of religion, they avoid the entire academic approach and operate under the flag of Christianity.
The fact of the matter is they are an offshoot of a group called "Lifespring" which makes no pretense of being Christian....and "Lifespring" is an offshoot of the original "EST" training from the 70's. The founder of Momentus was actually an instructor with "Lifespring", who quit and started his own thing (sound familiar?)...only when he started up Momentus, he put a thin veneer of Christian jargon into the training. The Momentus training is almost identical to the Lifespring training...
The question that should be asked is are the techniques used by Momentus biblical? I see NOTHING in the bible that even hints at this type of experience. Can you see Jesus asking you to sign a hold harmless agreement?...or putting you through sleep deprivation and then screaming at you and ordering you to punch a pillow screaming, "mommy, mommy"???
If a person finds value in Momentus...that's their decision....but let's be honest about it....this is new age psycho therapy...and definitely not Christian in nature. I realize that if a Christian takes Momentus, they can internalize their belief systems into the training...but that's only because of what they bring into the training themselves...The same could be said of the experience of an Ozzy Osbourne concert."
"my only "experience" with momentus was all it took to convince me i wanted nothing to do with it.
i was having lunch with john lynn (something we used to do once a year when he was in the area), and he brought it up to me. this was before any of the bad press, etc. so i asked him to tell me about it. he responded by saying "you'll have to take the class to find out," the same kind of bs we used to say when telling someone to take pfal. i knew right then i'd never have anything to do with it."
"She and her husband invited me to a dinner with two x-twi who were now "trainers" in Momentus (people who apparently sit in the back of the class and take notes & stuff.)
I told all concerned, sure I would like to get together with them but I was not going to take Momentus, nor did I want to go to a dinner promoting it.
We got to dinner and about 10 minutes into it, the dinner became a platform to push me and my spouse into taking the class.
We left.
Later, when the friend of mine tried to push me into the class for about the 12th time and I told her, "NO," she told me I was sick just like Crxig Mxrtindale.
Now, this girl had never been in TWI and all she knew of it was from me, who was her friend. And some SPLINTER people, to whom I had introduced her, while I was checking them out myself. So, were they bashing me because I declined a class they promoted? I dunno. Because my friend never knew, met or heard Crxig teach -- she had no personal experience of him at all. Yet, she was comparing me to Crxig because I was uninterested in another "class".
All I knew was, I was just getting over where the first class I took (PFAL) had taken me.
This girl, when I asked her what version of the Bible she had, said, "green." She did not even know it was King James. This same girl, began to tell me how lousy of a Christian I was, when she graduated from Momentus, the very next week.
I couldn't believe I was the one who introduced her to the avenue that led her to this.
I wrote her a note about the "novice Christian" and if she still felt this way about me in five years, to come back and tell me. Otherwise, I was going to blow her off like the freshly born-again person, one might have the misfortune of sitting next to on a long plane ride. Over zealous, critical and annoying. She pushed Momentus at me again."
"I knew two couples that were friends of mine. Both couples became insufferable to be around for about a month after taking Momentus.
One guy actually said, "If you see the changes in my life.... and would like these same changes ...blah blah blah.." I told him that he was had become one of the least humble people that I had ever been around.
The other couple couldn't seem to keep their word - even though they told me that that was a big deal in Momentus."
"Ya know what I find rather curious re: Momentus and their near rabid insistance that whatever negative effects that you endured while taking their course, it is your doing, your responsibility, etc., ...
... whereas any positive results that you enjoyed as a result of Momentus, they will not contradict you if you give Momentus the praise and credit for said positive results. ... Ie., they don't mind taking the credit, but they do mind taking the criticism."
"She said they teamed her up with a partner, then told her if she quit, the partner could not continue in Momentus training. So, YOU were responsible for the other person being unable to finish the class.
She said although they had Bible verses on the wall and played LOUD good Christian music, little of it had to do with God.
She said she was asked to stand and tell something about herself and whe she was finished she was screamed at that she was lying.
This was to get to "her truth" about herself so she could find the real her.
She was taught that OTHERS people's perceptions of you are WHO you really are. And almost anything you find wrong with another person goes back to your childhood.
This way of thinking became very annoying and helped to push us toward the end of our friendship. For instance, we would be driving and someone would cut me off and I would get angry. And she would constantly tell me, "who are you really mad at? Your father?"
This became her way with everything.
The CLASS was a “weekend” and the girl I knew was gone, and this kind-of robotic know-it-all woman then existed. She judged everyone and thought if she got people to be "honest" she could help them. Even at work, she would flow all her information through her NEW found filter.
She lost her job.
I got her an interview at my company, to help her out. ON THE INTERVIEW, this woman with a maters degree begins to PUSH the Mometus class to MY BOSS. And then began to critique her, bringing up some things I told her in confidence as MY FRIEND."
"I will say this anytime you have sleep deprivation, loud music and people screaming at you it's going to affect you somehow. I put my whole heart into it like I had been taught to do with everything, and boy it was hell. Granted some sins I had comitted had come out which I suppose in essence is good, but I know there was a better way. Shall we say a more Christ-like way? I didn't end up in the hospital as some did but I did end up striking out physically to others which was not my nature. And how devilish is this .... about I assert? Who in the hell was I to judge anyone and thats exactly what it encouraged. Yes it is true that we are not to lie but does that mean we go around and spew our thoughts all over the place? I was told by my husband after Momentus during one of our little chats that he desired to have sex with our church leaders wife. Now did I need that tidbit of truth? I should say not. I know from the experience it led to a lot of disobedience from we women in the church. Also a lot of false prophesy was going around at that time...yuck! So was Momentus evil? I will not speak for others but I wouldn't take it again and you can put that as my ephitat on my gravestone....for those who took it."
"..But instead of an honest dialogue, I got the "haves and have nots" treatment...you remember that one don't you? It's when the whole group exchanges those "knowing looks" with each other and then proceed to avoid answering any questions...I was told "just take the training and you'll see for yourself." Reminded me too much of "just take pfal and you'll see for yourself"...it became obvious to me that either you were an enlightened "Momentus grad", or you were a schmuck...you had to do this to "really" be a part of the group, before they would accept you...
Sorry...that sealed it for me. I voted for individuality instead...told them I wasn't interested and they turned into rattlesnakes towards me...and I WAS told that if I wasn't willing to confess my secret sins to other people, that I "had something to hide"..."
"CES promoted Momentus very heavily in the late 90's after the Board took the class and got tremendous breakthroughs in their own life. However, they backed off when they were told about others taking the class and having severe problems and reactions. My experience with those guys is that they tend to jump on the bandwagon rather quickly if it's something that's beneficial to them without really weighing the consequences.
Also, the promotion was faulty. People were told it would change their lives, that if you wanted to experience breakthroughs and get real about your life, you needed to take this. I even heard of people thinking that it would be like marriage counseling. God help them. There was a subtle undercurrent of, you've got to take this to be more godly, like us. Nothing obvious, like TWI, and nobody bullied anyone into taking it, but for people who were involved with TWI, some of the old mindsets would pop up in those situations."
"In a way Momentus seems to me like "Rodeo School" was with TWI. Same thing with "You gotta go to Gartmore..." and how the whole Chris Geer thing was at one time after POP. This was before CG was declared to be "SATAN," Now folks don't want to be associated with him. Is he "satan" because of HIS satanic ways, or because "leadership" declared him to be?
People were RIDING 2000 POUND BULLS because "leadership" said it was the thing to do. It was like you weren't cool if you didn't go to rodeo school. If you didn't do well at LEAD you were "not Corps material." We HICH-HIKED hundreds of MILES across the country and "NOBODY questioned" the basic sanity of that. If you didn't go WOW, want to go WOW or "go Corps" you were "less than" as a believer.
Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???""
"Momentus is/was clearly a rite of initiation, a tribal ordeal, basically a hazing, for some (or many) of its graduates. The emotional maturity of those individuals is questionable, if only because of that view. To use a sports analogy, it's a tryout to see who makes the first string and who warms the bench. Does "Athletes of the Spirit" sound familiar? Same attitude.
To use a military analogy, it's boot camp, where they break you and then rebuild you. (I've never been to boot camp, but testimony abounds.)
That view would be consistent with the steroidally competitive personalities among certain TWI leadership."
"Oh yeah...I found it rather interesting when they all "ganged up on me"...trying to convince me that I should share all my "secret sins" with them...I figured that they got suckered into sharing THEIR secret sins during the Momentus training and now they were looking for someone stupid enough to follow their lead...No thanks...one cult experience was enough for me.
All of you Christians out there...would Jesus make you sign a "hold harmless" clause before he started "training" you???"
"About 7 years ago, I was approached by some former twiers, all of them connected with CES...their mission was to recruit me into the next Momentus training...they lauded it to the sky..."better than pfal...greatest thing since sliced bread...life changing...you just GOTTA do it"...that's all I heard from these folks...
Of course, my bull.... meter started redlining...so I went onto the internet and checked out everything I could find about Momentus...found out that it was an "offshoot" of LifeSpring which was an "offshoot" of the old EST training...had nothing to do with Christianity until the Momentus folks decided to paint a thin veneer of "bible words" on it and gave it a different name...
In all honesty, I listened to the pros and the cons...weighed it all out and decided..."Are you kidding me?...no chance I'm gonna take that thing"
I even attended the Momentus "public explanation" meeting...or whatever they called it...at the end of the meeting they asked if anyone had any questions...nobody did...until I started talking...I asked them about "LifeSpring", I asked them to explain the points made by the anti-Momentus folks from the internet...I was quickly "hushed up" and taken to a room alone. I guess they didn't want the other "newbies" to hear what I was saying...
The interesting part of this whole process, was that the folks from CES who were trying to recruit me, were as sweet and kind to me as you can imagine...until I informed them that I was not interested in taking Momentus...then they showed their true colors...One woman screamed at me...yes, she screamed..."WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE?"...they became very hostile towards me...of course, that only reinforced my decision to not take Momentus. In fact, when I got home that night, I called JAL on the phone to let him know what I thought of Momentus and his connection to it...we "discussed" the matter for about an hour on the phone. Neither of us had changed our opinion by the end of the conversation...
...and all those CES/Momentus folks who were singing the praises of Momentus?...within a year of taking it...EVERY ONE of their lives were in shambles. One guy in particular...he insisted on confessing to his wife that he had had an affair with another woman 5 years earlier...he told me that because of the Momentus training, he knew that he had to "get honest" with her about this...shortly after his confession, his wife left him and took all the kids with her...his life went into the toilet.
Let me see if I understand the Momentus way of thinking, from this example...The guy decided that to ease his own guilty conscience, he would burden his wife with this devasting information...that way, they would become closer because of the pure honesty of it all...
...I think maybe they should have thrown HIM out of the "lifeboat" first.
"Your life will change over the period of a weekend if you take our training"...Sorry, life just doesn't work that way."
More than 30 lawsuits were filed against Lifespring, alleging that the training had caused everything from emotional damage to psychotic breakdowns to suicide. The first unfavorable jury verdict came in 1984, when Deborah Bingham, a 30-year-old blackjack dealer, was awarded $800,000. She said she'd been in a psych ward for a month after attending two Lifespring courses. In 1982, after David Priddle jumped off a building, his family accepted an undisclosed sum; so did Artie Barnett's family, when Barnett, who couldn't swim, drowned as fellow participants egged him on. And Gail Renick's family received $450,000 after she died from an asthma attack during a training session. She had been led to believe her medication was unnecessary. Gabriella Martinez testified that she heard her trainer's voice in her head the night she swallowed a bottle of sleeping pills. Lifespring settled the case out of court.
Clearly Excie has the inside track on this program as I am sure pillow hugging Jesus is better than the totally p!zzed one when he would see what these idiots promote in His name! Is this the other Jesus preached that would put God's elect in the path of harm and we are called whiners by someone that claims Christ was all over the program and mental hospitals and suicides abound?
Ego maniacs beating their chests promoting a potentially dangerous program to their followers, obviously these self centered, self serving, self proclaimed "ministers" of CES/STFI kept the "best" from TWI........... center stage and the worship of the peons.
Here are the results of a similar kind of "training". The only difference I see, they are "secular", and momentus has a fine religious veneer. I wonder if CES really knows what they are messing with..
I would have to ask what is the goal of the training/education and who is the target audience?...And just because Christ is mentioned frequently doesn't necessarily make something Christian. Jesus Christ is mentioned quite frequently in PFAL but that was mere window dressing – it's indeed mystifying how a student can sit through the PFAL Class hearing Christ's name so much and yet life down the road for the grad is one of TWI leadership taking the place of the absent Christ. Paul did warn Christians of people preaching a different Jesus or gospel [II Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9].
Another thing that concerns me is how a group will put together "the latest and greatest Bible truth in a seminar guaranteed to change your life or your money back" – this bothers me when I recall Jesus' own words, "Freely you have received – freely give" [Matthew 10:8]. I guess we need to update His directive to: "Charge a fair market price for anything bearing My logo…and be sure to get the Release of Liability forms signed…in triplicate."
Can a training program be helpful to some and hurtful to others? Sure – I think of things like the military [they'd boot me out of boot camp the first week], a cooking class [if you ate my cooking you'd be hurt too], a masters program in economics [that right there would kill me]…Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.
…And there's one other aspect of something that may have harmful effects. This may or may not apply to you…so take it for what it's worth…Sometimes people don't realize the harm they've sustained during an experience – especially to the mind. And in order to fix a problem you must first be aware that there is a problem…I left TWI twenty years ago over intellectual reasons [doctrinal issues and the freedom to think and disagree] – and life has been great! Now I've been coming to GSC for only a year. Wow – it's quite an adventure – I've gone even deeper – exposing pockets of their residual poison - their insidious doctrines and mindset had infiltrated and polluted my faith…This time around as I review my TWI experience and talk to others at GSC – my beef with TWI is a lot more than just intellectual issues now. The moral issues loom so large. Doctrinal stuff…well…so many things we could argue about all day long…but I don't see any room for debate on the clear moral standards of the Bible. I'm not suggesting there's any moral issues with CES or any offshoots I'm just using my issues with TWI as an example – what I am suggesting is you may have taken some serious hits to your intellect/emotions/faith – but just haven't realized it yet.
So what's my point? May I suggest you lay off any promotional ads of training programs for awhile…My take on GSC is that it's a place where people come together to sort out their experience with a religious group and in a collective effort now experience healing, understanding and growth…But that's just my take on it. A great place for any doctrinal haggling is in the Doctrinal forum. I even started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God after thinking on some of the things discussed about CES and prophecy. Come – join the party.
Regarding this comment you made:
Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.
That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this.
TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures.
I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs.
Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.
Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.
That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this.
It's great that this is NOT your experience with Momentus.
HOWEVER,
we've heard from some other people, and your experience, while not isolated,
is not universal, either.
A lot of people came out of is as more arrogant than when they entered.
Some people *cough* JAL *cough* are still pushing it as THE answer for people,
even if they're pushing it one-on-one.
And as quoted, some people's idea of "responding to feedback" and "dialogue" is
"attack the dissenter." We have eyewitnesses.
Some people *cough* JAL **cough* have, and continue to treat Momentus as some
sort of initiation rite. Those who haven't taken it are "other" and are inferior in some
way, shape or form.
TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures.
I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs.
Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.
Might I recommend putting a finer magnifying glass on the situation?
While not everyone's had these experiences, enough HAVE that you should be able to
That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this.
TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures.
I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs.
Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.
Leaving TWI re-started my personal growth. One of the things I learned from my bad/evil/difficult experiences with that group is that we really shouldn't put our trust in people – when it comes to personal growth or remaining faithful to God...I'm also into discussing experiences with religious groups…I personally think it may benefit you to re-think stuff about Momentus – maybe sharpen up your critical thinking skills ["To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs" as you put it]. Reading these links provided by WordWolf, Hammeroni, and Rich is very disturbing. And looking at some other links like 1Broken1's post # 21 – checking out the Association for Christian Character Development.
I see that Momentus now re-appears as Breakthrough. [Also – why the name change? Did anyone cover that?] The excerpts [in bold red] below are from this link http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/345
Breakthrough (formerly Momentus): the four-day breakthrough training gives participants the opportunity to discover and realign the belief systems governing their lives. It serves to help participants experience a transformation in their ability to love others as Christ loves them while liberating their consciences to fulfill God's unique purposes for them with freedom, passion, and power.
Specific objectives include discerning and integrating feedback from others; opening new resources for communicating; overcoming bitterness and other relational blocks and reaching forgiveness; releasing creativity; connecting vitally with what one values most; expressing love in a way that is actually experienced by others; appreciating differing points of view; and becoming internally motivated to act powerfully from one's vision of a life worth living.
We are still left with the question, "What is His way?" The signposts along the way are often ambiguous and open to divergent interpretation. God, however, provides us with at least three different compasses to assist us in arriving at our calling: our unique gifting, our unique past, and our unique relationships. He has specially gifted each of us, and these gifts are an integral part of our calling to love God and others.
And while our past by no means determines our future, it is a potent source for discovering it. Our relationships with others form the crucible in which God refines our character. Further, others in our lives are, by God's design, to be the recipient of the fruit of our gifts.
End of excerpts from website
That's right -they don't claim they've cornered the market on truth – but they assert God provides three different compasses – and though signposts along your journey may be ambiguous or open to divergent interpretations they'll be more than happy to take your money and tell you what it all means.
I see this stuff as being like those get-rich-quick books. The only ones who get anything from this stuff are the people selling this stuff. Do people really believe there's a get-spiritual-quick-program, or some transforming seminar? In my opinion, the only growth they accelerate is that of the ego. Is it so disappointing if all we get out of Christianity is Christ? Colossians 2:3 does say in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
…How does a Christian grow and become fruitful? I don't think it can be by any artificial process directed by man or by any shortcuts – not true Christian growth. A Christian's growth is something deeply personal and according to the following passage is a dynamic process of being faithful to Jesus Christ - and the Father, as the Master Gardener, is the only one qualified to remove the things that keep us from bearing fruit.
John 15: 1-5 NASB
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Leaving TWI re-started my personal growth. One of the things I learned from my bad/evil/difficult experiences with that group is that we really shouldn't put our trust in people – when it comes to personal growth or remaining faithful to God...I'm also into discussing experiences with religious groups…I personally think it may benefit you to re-think stuff about Momentus – maybe sharpen up your critical thinking skills ["To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs" as you put it]. Reading these links provided by WordWolf, Hammeroni, and Rich is very disturbing. And looking at some other links like 1Broken1's post # 21 – checking out the Association for Christian Character Development.
I see that Momentus now re-appears as Breakthrough. [Also – why the name change? Did anyone cover that?] The excerpts [in bold red] below are from this link http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/345
Breakthrough (formerly Momentus): the four-day breakthrough training gives participants the opportunity to discover and realign the belief systems governing their lives. It serves to help participants experience a transformation in their ability to love others as Christ loves them while liberating their consciences to fulfill God's unique purposes for them with freedom, passion, and power.
Specific objectives include discerning and integrating feedback from others; opening new resources for communicating; overcoming bitterness and other relational blocks and reaching forgiveness; releasing creativity; connecting vitally with what one values most; expressing love in a way that is actually experienced by others; appreciating differing points of view; and becoming internally motivated to act powerfully from one's vision of a life worth living.
We are still left with the question, "What is His way?" The signposts along the way are often ambiguous and open to divergent interpretation. God, however, provides us with at least three different compasses to assist us in arriving at our calling: our unique gifting, our unique past, and our unique relationships. He has specially gifted each of us, and these gifts are an integral part of our calling to love God and others.
And while our past by no means determines our future, it is a potent source for discovering it. Our relationships with others form the crucible in which God refines our character. Further, others in our lives are, by God's design, to be the recipient of the fruit of our gifts.
End of excerpts from website
That's right -they don't claim they've cornered the market on truth – but they assert God provides three different compasses – and though signposts along your journey may be ambiguous or open to divergent interpretations they'll be more than happy to take your money and tell you what it all means.
I see this stuff as being like those get-rich-quick books. The only ones who get anything from this stuff are the people selling this stuff. Do people really believe there's a get-spiritual-quick-program, or some transforming seminar? In my opinion, the only growth they accelerate is that of the ego. Is it so disappointing if all we get out of Christianity is Christ? Colossians 2:3 does say in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
…How does a Christian grow and become fruitful? I don't think it can be by any artificial process directed by man or by any shortcuts – not true Christian growth. A Christian's growth is something deeply personal and according to the following passage is a dynamic process of being faithful to Jesus Christ - and the Father, as the Master Gardener, is the only one qualified to remove the things that keep us from bearing fruit.
John 15: 1-5 NASB
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
yo t-bone !
The conversations about this seem to be going in circles. So I'll just say a few words or two, and jump out of the circle for a while...
That's the first time I've heard the stuff about signposts along the way...though I kind of like how they put it. There's a lot of truth there. You talk about folks in these trainings taking your money and interpreting the signposts for you. That is exactly what they DIDN'T do. Yes - I paid money for a class. $150 or something like that - big deal. But in my experience there was never anyone human there to interpret the signposts. There was a God and Jesus there with me who did interpret a lot of signposts. And I did learn a whole lot about how to better trust God in sorting out the "signposts" of life. God can and does work with us as we are. He loves us and wants to make all of our experiences be a time of learning and growth.
A spritual get rich quick program is not at all how I experienced it. I gotta believe that a lot of the over the top negative stuff out there is from folks who had experiences in the classes that were less than fruitful or negative. It's hard for me to say what percentage of folks had postive experiences. The program as I saw it was a program of great potential benefit - with some benefit coming quickly, and some over a longer term period of time. But like any program, I saw that there was a potential that some could get nothing out of the program. Those who came to sit back and sow nothing probably didn't get much out of it. Those who put a lot into the program got a lot out of it.
I'm guessing here about these numbers, but in my training there were 13 people. I'd say 3 got a lot out of the experience. 5 people got a moderate amount of understanding. 4 people didn't get much out of it. 1 person quit after the start - refusing to sign the disclaimer.
If Jesus is really strongly present in any situation, that can bring about personal peace and resolutiuon of issues. Close experiences with Jesus can also lead to situations where people close to you will be offended by your changes - they can no longer push your buttons and make you part of their unholy kingdoms. That is part of what these trainings are/were about. What I'm trying to say is - any real good work sponsored by God and Jesus will not be praised and lauded by all. If this is the case, the training is probably not worth much. Satan and all of his companions and unwitting associates start getting their collective asses in gear when they see the seeds of understanding and godliness starting to take root and blossom among his enemies.
If anyone here besides myself in GS Land has actual experience in a training - Momentus, Vision Quest, or Breakthrough - I would like to hear about it. It's good to have hard data about experiences in the training. Sometimes the web and blogsphere blabber isn't a great representative of reality.
As a minister for Christ I could never rightly recommend a program that turned out to be harmful to anyone. So my beef would be that it can't be recommended by a true minister of the true God, TYVM. Now you think about that while you continue all your finger pointing.
I recommended to my wife that she get her driver's license. Despite the fact that daily there are thousands of deaths
due to automobile accidents! I guess I'm not true minister of God. Putting my wife in such danger!! What kind of slug
am I ?!!
Oh ductape - you're ministry is such a soft and loving one, floating on cotton clouds in a land of peace, good will,
and safety. Your followers must be getting along well in this world free of wars, violence, corruption, and sin.
Ham, I don't always agree with you, but you crack me up.
Yeah, this Momentus thing sounds sketchy at best. I did some prayer ministry sessions called Theophostic Prayer, on the other hand, which was very peaceful and wonderful and emotionally healing. It's basically a combination of counsel, prayer, meditation, listening for God's voice.... it was great. The Lord addressed a whole bunch of old lies in a matter of weeks that had been emotionally crippling me for 30 years.
Some tears, but no screaming. http://www.theophostic.com/ I checked it out before I did it. There were no legal forms involved or I would have said no thanks.
Hey holy smoke,
Any minister or training worth its salt is going to come under the gun from folks who have other opinions. Last time I checked - there's a spiritual war going on out there. People didn't exactly welcome Jesus with open arms when he started doing miracles, etc. They killed him.
I'm not the final judge of the goodness or badness of these programs/trainings. What I want to say is that there are good opportunites for training and growth out there for Christians. Whatever you do, trust that God will be there to sort it all out. Realize that growth is gonna take risk, and there will be some stumbling, and some falling along the way. Don't close yourself in a bubble because you've been hurt or deceived. The peace and joy and love kingdom of god that Jesus calls us to live in is there for the taking, but it does require action and trust in God above all else. Go for it - God will be with you.
the kingdom of God is not here yet and is not in any sense of the bible there for the taking.
Do you just make stuffup that make you feel self righteous?
the kingdom is Future , Jesus is still preparing it for us and the Hope of His return is to get rid of all the trouble and probems we now deal with. your arrogant and pompus attitude has never worked for any man or woman, it cant change a thing or any circumstance.
what bible do you read?
you do not do you?
if your going to play at least know what the heck your talking about. that just makes you look like an idiot who spews made up phrases .
So the people that were destroyed didn`t have God there with them? He some how didn`t care enough to see them through...
When you make statements like *God will sort it all out* it means that those whom ended up in a mental hospital or dead some how just don`t matter.
I read some about this momentus, an article from a lady who actually ran and promoted their damned classes for a while.
She put it very well...people who have really hurt folks, people like ex twi leadership embrace it heartilly because in having everyone blame themselves...it absolves the leaders of their guilt, their need to seek forgivness and make restitution where possible to the people they have wounded or destroyed.
This is in direct contradiction to what the scriptures tell us to do concerning a brother that has been wronged.
Of COURSE these guys love it ....it lets them off the hook, just like in twi ....they don`t have to care about those whom they owe an apology and restitution to. Their sheet don`t steenk, it is always someone elses fault.
For heavens sakes, this woman was one of the young girls that had been drugged and raped....and the momentus trainers said that it was her fault that this happened to her and that she needed to take responsibility.
That isn`t what the scriptures say to do about these false ministers, these wolves who ravaged and devoured the flocks they were responsible for....
I recommended to my wife that she get her driver's license. Despite the fact that daily there are thousands of deaths
due to automobile accidents! I guess I'm not true minister of God. Putting my wife in such danger!! What kind of slug
am I ?!!
Oh ductape - you're ministry is such a soft and loving one, floating on cotton clouds in a land of peace, good will,
and safety. Your followers must be getting along well in this world free of wars, violence, corruption, and sin.
Rules forbid me for telling you what kind of slug you are. Did your wife need to drive? Oh, I forgot more die every year on our roads than did on 9-11. My bad.
You have no idea about what a hard-a$$ I really am. But, I still won't claim gawd almighty while sending anyone into a dangerous program. I would be glad to put your so tough self through one of my "special" programs. Just sign a waver and pay extra! If you think any higher power works in the hearts of the men that promoted this, you belong with the blind being lead by the blind, TYVM......
Any minister or training worth its salt is going to come under the gun from folks who have other opinions. Last time I checked - there's a spiritual war going on out there. People didn't exactly welcome Jesus with open arms when he started doing miracles, etc. They killed him.
[by your standard, then, Jim Jones and David Koresh were also "worth their salt"-
since they "came under the gun from folks who have other opinions",
and died for their religions.
For the rest of us, the question is: are complaints levelled against ministers WITH CAUSE,
or is the minister BLAMELESS?
If a minister is twisting the arm of someone to pay to enter a program that gives them a nervous
breakdown, most of us would consider the victim to have a complaint WITH CAUSE.
Of course, some of us, if we like the program, will instead circle the wagons and blame the
victim instead.
Hm. Many of us already saw that with ONE organization....
and we're watching it play out again right in front of our eyes right on this messageboard.]
I'm not the final judge of the goodness or badness of these programs/trainings.
[You've been doing a great imitation of that final judge....]
What I want to say is that there are good opportunites for training and growth out there for Christians.
[And also some amazing danger, pitfalls, predators, traps out there for Christians.]
Whatever you do, trust that God will be there to sort it all out.
[Run 'em all thru Momentus- let God sort 'em out!
Or maybe obey Hebrews 5:14 and recognize the differences yourself.
Hebrews 5:14 (New American Standard Bible)
"But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."
Don't let a little thing like God's Word slow down advertising your program, Sparky...]
Realize that growth is gonna take risk, and there will be some stumbling, and some falling along the way. Don't close yourself in a bubble because you've been hurt or deceived. The peace and joy and love kingdom of god that Jesus calls us to live in is there for the taking, but it does require action and trust in God above all else. Go for it - God will be with you.
[On the other hand, there's plenty of risks, stumbling, and falling that is NOT for the mature growth
of Christians.
Want to experience risks, stumbling, and falling?
Fill your pockets with money, then go to New Orleans at the height of Mardi Gras,
then Rio during Carnival,
and wind up the trip in Las Vegas.
You'll experience a lot of risk, stumbling, and falling, all of it far outside of any bubble you were in.
You'll also have a HECK of a lot more fun than a weekend of being locked in a room with people
yelling at you.
And there's no guarantee you won't grow a lot more than the yelling thing.
(No guarantee you won't catch a venereal disease either, but if you want a REAL stumblingblock to
your flesh, it sounds like one of the more interesting ones.)
So, "take action"- buy your plane tickets, and "trust in God above all else.
Go for it-God will be with you."
Hey- let's apply that advice CONSISTENTLY, if we're going to apply it.]
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
14
71
30
Popular Days
Feb 15
23
Mar 9
22
Feb 14
17
Mar 1
17
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 11 posts
WordWolf 14 posts
Ham 71 posts
caribousam 30 posts
Popular Days
Feb 15 2007
23 posts
Mar 9 2007
22 posts
Feb 14 2007
17 posts
Mar 1 2007
17 posts
Popular Posts
GrouchoMarxJr
I must say that it IS interesting to see the people who promoted "Momentus" having such difficulties themselves now... ...Maybe it's just a coincidence that the folks who were so heavily into this ps
excathedra
well tell him to calm down....
hug a pillow....
whatev.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I would have to ask what is the goal of the training/education and who is the target audience?...And just because Christ is mentioned frequently doesn't necessarily make something Christian. Jesus Christ is mentioned quite frequently in PFAL but that was mere window dressing – it's indeed mystifying how a student can sit through the PFAL Class hearing Christ's name so much and yet life down the road for the grad is one of TWI leadership taking the place of the absent Christ. Paul did warn Christians of people preaching a different Jesus or gospel [II Corinthians 11:4; Galatians 1:6-9].
Another thing that concerns me is how a group will put together "the latest and greatest Bible truth in a seminar guaranteed to change your life or your money back" – this bothers me when I recall Jesus' own words, "Freely you have received – freely give" [Matthew 10:8]. I guess we need to update His directive to: "Charge a fair market price for anything bearing My logo…and be sure to get the Release of Liability forms signed…in triplicate."
Can a training program be helpful to some and hurtful to others? Sure – I think of things like the military [they'd boot me out of boot camp the first week], a cooking class [if you ate my cooking you'd be hurt too], a masters program in economics [that right there would kill me]…Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.
…And there's one other aspect of something that may have harmful effects. This may or may not apply to you…so take it for what it's worth…Sometimes people don't realize the harm they've sustained during an experience – especially to the mind. And in order to fix a problem you must first be aware that there is a problem…I left TWI twenty years ago over intellectual reasons [doctrinal issues and the freedom to think and disagree] – and life has been great! Now I've been coming to GSC for only a year. Wow – it's quite an adventure – I've gone even deeper – exposing pockets of their residual poison - their insidious doctrines and mindset had infiltrated and polluted my faith…This time around as I review my TWI experience and talk to others at GSC – my beef with TWI is a lot more than just intellectual issues now. The moral issues loom so large. Doctrinal stuff…well…so many things we could argue about all day long…but I don't see any room for debate on the clear moral standards of the Bible. I'm not suggesting there's any moral issues with CES or any offshoots I'm just using my issues with TWI as an example – what I am suggesting is you may have taken some serious hits to your intellect/emotions/faith – but just haven't realized it yet.
So what's my point? May I suggest you lay off any promotional ads of training programs for awhile…My take on GSC is that it's a place where people come together to sort out their experience with a religious group and in a collective effort now experience healing, understanding and growth…But that's just my take on it. A great place for any doctrinal haggling is in the Doctrinal forum. I even started a thread in Doctrinal called Decision Making and the Will of God after thinking on some of the things discussed about CES and prophecy. Come – join the party.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Here's a quick primer.
Here's some stuff off previous posts on Momentus.
"These folks are NOT mental health professionals. Their group identifies itself with being a "Christian" based organization. By going the route of religion, they avoid the entire academic approach and operate under the flag of Christianity.
The fact of the matter is they are an offshoot of a group called "Lifespring" which makes no pretense of being Christian....and "Lifespring" is an offshoot of the original "EST" training from the 70's. The founder of Momentus was actually an instructor with "Lifespring", who quit and started his own thing (sound familiar?)...only when he started up Momentus, he put a thin veneer of Christian jargon into the training. The Momentus training is almost identical to the Lifespring training...
The question that should be asked is are the techniques used by Momentus biblical? I see NOTHING in the bible that even hints at this type of experience. Can you see Jesus asking you to sign a hold harmless agreement?...or putting you through sleep deprivation and then screaming at you and ordering you to punch a pillow screaming, "mommy, mommy"???
If a person finds value in Momentus...that's their decision....but let's be honest about it....this is new age psycho therapy...and definitely not Christian in nature. I realize that if a Christian takes Momentus, they can internalize their belief systems into the training...but that's only because of what they bring into the training themselves...The same could be said of the experience of an Ozzy Osbourne concert."
"my only "experience" with momentus was all it took to convince me i wanted nothing to do with it.
i was having lunch with john lynn (something we used to do once a year when he was in the area), and he brought it up to me. this was before any of the bad press, etc. so i asked him to tell me about it. he responded by saying "you'll have to take the class to find out," the same kind of bs we used to say when telling someone to take pfal. i knew right then i'd never have anything to do with it."
"She and her husband invited me to a dinner with two x-twi who were now "trainers" in Momentus (people who apparently sit in the back of the class and take notes & stuff.)
I told all concerned, sure I would like to get together with them but I was not going to take Momentus, nor did I want to go to a dinner promoting it.
We got to dinner and about 10 minutes into it, the dinner became a platform to push me and my spouse into taking the class.
We left.
Later, when the friend of mine tried to push me into the class for about the 12th time and I told her, "NO," she told me I was sick just like Crxig Mxrtindale.
Now, this girl had never been in TWI and all she knew of it was from me, who was her friend. And some SPLINTER people, to whom I had introduced her, while I was checking them out myself. So, were they bashing me because I declined a class they promoted? I dunno. Because my friend never knew, met or heard Crxig teach -- she had no personal experience of him at all. Yet, she was comparing me to Crxig because I was uninterested in another "class".
All I knew was, I was just getting over where the first class I took (PFAL) had taken me.
This girl, when I asked her what version of the Bible she had, said, "green." She did not even know it was King James. This same girl, began to tell me how lousy of a Christian I was, when she graduated from Momentus, the very next week.
I couldn't believe I was the one who introduced her to the avenue that led her to this.
I wrote her a note about the "novice Christian" and if she still felt this way about me in five years, to come back and tell me. Otherwise, I was going to blow her off like the freshly born-again person, one might have the misfortune of sitting next to on a long plane ride. Over zealous, critical and annoying. She pushed Momentus at me again."
"I knew two couples that were friends of mine. Both couples became insufferable to be around for about a month after taking Momentus.
One guy actually said, "If you see the changes in my life.... and would like these same changes ...blah blah blah.." I told him that he was had become one of the least humble people that I had ever been around.
The other couple couldn't seem to keep their word - even though they told me that that was a big deal in Momentus."
"Ya know what I find rather curious re: Momentus and their near rabid insistance that whatever negative effects that you endured while taking their course, it is your doing, your responsibility, etc., ...
... whereas any positive results that you enjoyed as a result of Momentus, they will not contradict you if you give Momentus the praise and credit for said positive results. ... Ie., they don't mind taking the credit, but they do mind taking the criticism."
"She said they teamed her up with a partner, then told her if she quit, the partner could not continue in Momentus training. So, YOU were responsible for the other person being unable to finish the class.
She said although they had Bible verses on the wall and played LOUD good Christian music, little of it had to do with God.
She said she was asked to stand and tell something about herself and whe she was finished she was screamed at that she was lying.
This was to get to "her truth" about herself so she could find the real her.
She was taught that OTHERS people's perceptions of you are WHO you really are. And almost anything you find wrong with another person goes back to your childhood.
This way of thinking became very annoying and helped to push us toward the end of our friendship. For instance, we would be driving and someone would cut me off and I would get angry. And she would constantly tell me, "who are you really mad at? Your father?"
This became her way with everything.
The CLASS was a “weekend” and the girl I knew was gone, and this kind-of robotic know-it-all woman then existed. She judged everyone and thought if she got people to be "honest" she could help them. Even at work, she would flow all her information through her NEW found filter.
She lost her job.
I got her an interview at my company, to help her out. ON THE INTERVIEW, this woman with a maters degree begins to PUSH the Mometus class to MY BOSS. And then began to critique her, bringing up some things I told her in confidence as MY FRIEND."
"I will say this anytime you have sleep deprivation, loud music and people screaming at you it's going to affect you somehow. I put my whole heart into it like I had been taught to do with everything, and boy it was hell. Granted some sins I had comitted had come out which I suppose in essence is good, but I know there was a better way. Shall we say a more Christ-like way? I didn't end up in the hospital as some did but I did end up striking out physically to others which was not my nature. And how devilish is this .... about I assert? Who in the hell was I to judge anyone and thats exactly what it encouraged. Yes it is true that we are not to lie but does that mean we go around and spew our thoughts all over the place? I was told by my husband after Momentus during one of our little chats that he desired to have sex with our church leaders wife. Now did I need that tidbit of truth? I should say not. I know from the experience it led to a lot of disobedience from we women in the church. Also a lot of false prophesy was going around at that time...yuck! So was Momentus evil? I will not speak for others but I wouldn't take it again and you can put that as my ephitat on my gravestone....for those who took it."
"..But instead of an honest dialogue, I got the "haves and have nots" treatment...you remember that one don't you? It's when the whole group exchanges those "knowing looks" with each other and then proceed to avoid answering any questions...I was told "just take the training and you'll see for yourself." Reminded me too much of "just take pfal and you'll see for yourself"...it became obvious to me that either you were an enlightened "Momentus grad", or you were a schmuck...you had to do this to "really" be a part of the group, before they would accept you...
Sorry...that sealed it for me. I voted for individuality instead...told them I wasn't interested and they turned into rattlesnakes towards me...and I WAS told that if I wasn't willing to confess my secret sins to other people, that I "had something to hide"..."
"CES promoted Momentus very heavily in the late 90's after the Board took the class and got tremendous breakthroughs in their own life. However, they backed off when they were told about others taking the class and having severe problems and reactions. My experience with those guys is that they tend to jump on the bandwagon rather quickly if it's something that's beneficial to them without really weighing the consequences.
Also, the promotion was faulty. People were told it would change their lives, that if you wanted to experience breakthroughs and get real about your life, you needed to take this. I even heard of people thinking that it would be like marriage counseling. God help them. There was a subtle undercurrent of, you've got to take this to be more godly, like us. Nothing obvious, like TWI, and nobody bullied anyone into taking it, but for people who were involved with TWI, some of the old mindsets would pop up in those situations."
"In a way Momentus seems to me like "Rodeo School" was with TWI. Same thing with "You gotta go to Gartmore..." and how the whole Chris Geer thing was at one time after POP. This was before CG was declared to be "SATAN," Now folks don't want to be associated with him. Is he "satan" because of HIS satanic ways, or because "leadership" declared him to be?
People were RIDING 2000 POUND BULLS because "leadership" said it was the thing to do. It was like you weren't cool if you didn't go to rodeo school. If you didn't do well at LEAD you were "not Corps material." We HICH-HIKED hundreds of MILES across the country and "NOBODY questioned" the basic sanity of that. If you didn't go WOW, want to go WOW or "go Corps" you were "less than" as a believer.
Years later, after "all that" is over... "you gotta do "Momentus???""
"Momentus is/was clearly a rite of initiation, a tribal ordeal, basically a hazing, for some (or many) of its graduates. The emotional maturity of those individuals is questionable, if only because of that view. To use a sports analogy, it's a tryout to see who makes the first string and who warms the bench. Does "Athletes of the Spirit" sound familiar? Same attitude.
To use a military analogy, it's boot camp, where they break you and then rebuild you. (I've never been to boot camp, but testimony abounds.)
That view would be consistent with the steroidally competitive personalities among certain TWI leadership."
"Oh yeah...I found it rather interesting when they all "ganged up on me"...trying to convince me that I should share all my "secret sins" with them...I figured that they got suckered into sharing THEIR secret sins during the Momentus training and now they were looking for someone stupid enough to follow their lead...No thanks...one cult experience was enough for me.
All of you Christians out there...would Jesus make you sign a "hold harmless" clause before he started "training" you???"
"About 7 years ago, I was approached by some former twiers, all of them connected with CES...their mission was to recruit me into the next Momentus training...they lauded it to the sky..."better than pfal...greatest thing since sliced bread...life changing...you just GOTTA do it"...that's all I heard from these folks...
Of course, my bull.... meter started redlining...so I went onto the internet and checked out everything I could find about Momentus...found out that it was an "offshoot" of LifeSpring which was an "offshoot" of the old EST training...had nothing to do with Christianity until the Momentus folks decided to paint a thin veneer of "bible words" on it and gave it a different name...
In all honesty, I listened to the pros and the cons...weighed it all out and decided..."Are you kidding me?...no chance I'm gonna take that thing"
I even attended the Momentus "public explanation" meeting...or whatever they called it...at the end of the meeting they asked if anyone had any questions...nobody did...until I started talking...I asked them about "LifeSpring", I asked them to explain the points made by the anti-Momentus folks from the internet...I was quickly "hushed up" and taken to a room alone. I guess they didn't want the other "newbies" to hear what I was saying...
The interesting part of this whole process, was that the folks from CES who were trying to recruit me, were as sweet and kind to me as you can imagine...until I informed them that I was not interested in taking Momentus...then they showed their true colors...One woman screamed at me...yes, she screamed..."WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO HIDE?"...they became very hostile towards me...of course, that only reinforced my decision to not take Momentus. In fact, when I got home that night, I called JAL on the phone to let him know what I thought of Momentus and his connection to it...we "discussed" the matter for about an hour on the phone. Neither of us had changed our opinion by the end of the conversation...
...and all those CES/Momentus folks who were singing the praises of Momentus?...within a year of taking it...EVERY ONE of their lives were in shambles. One guy in particular...he insisted on confessing to his wife that he had had an affair with another woman 5 years earlier...he told me that because of the Momentus training, he knew that he had to "get honest" with her about this...shortly after his confession, his wife left him and took all the kids with her...his life went into the toilet.
Let me see if I understand the Momentus way of thinking, from this example...The guy decided that to ease his own guilty conscience, he would burden his wife with this devasting information...that way, they would become closer because of the pure honesty of it all...
...I think maybe they should have thrown HIM out of the "lifeboat" first.
"Your life will change over the period of a weekend if you take our training"...Sorry, life just doesn't work that way."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Some links on Momentus....
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_momterri.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/mom_momcofield.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_mombarton.htm
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/rec_momenrobins.htm
And a previous thread on it, called "Momentus."
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=4424
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I wonder if the thin veneer of christian terms is an attempt to isolate the organization from attack by citing first amendment issues..
Double protected.. get through the hold harmless agreement, they can always claim they are practicing a religion..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Here is a little bit about the parent organization:
from http://www.rickross.com/reference/lifespri...ifespring7.html
No wonder they DEMAND you hold them harmless.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rich
Check out the Forum, it is done nation wide and is basicly the same thing done over several weeks or more.
www.forum.com
www.rickross.com
Edited by richLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ductape
Clearly Excie has the inside track on this program as I am sure pillow hugging Jesus is better than the totally p!zzed one when he would see what these idiots promote in His name! Is this the other Jesus preached that would put God's elect in the path of harm and we are called whiners by someone that claims Christ was all over the program and mental hospitals and suicides abound?
Ego maniacs beating their chests promoting a potentially dangerous program to their followers, obviously these self centered, self serving, self proclaimed "ministers" of CES/STFI kept the "best" from TWI........... center stage and the worship of the peons.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Here are the results of a similar kind of "training". The only difference I see, they are "secular", and momentus has a fine religious veneer. I wonder if CES really knows what they are messing with..
http://www.cultnews.com/archives/000781.html
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
hey Rich - good one !!! Perfect !
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
Regarding this comment you made:
Now when people assume their pet program or class has cornered the market on truth and deem any negative reactions to it as a shortcoming/defect/weakness of the participant – an alarm sounds in my head. I've experienced first hand that kind of thinking in TWI – and don't want anything to do with that ever again.
That's just it - the Momentus / Vision Quests folks never say or act like they have cornered the market on truth. And all types of feedback are welcome. Feedback after the training is requested. After the training, I left Michigan to my home in New England, and heard little more from any in the group. I have befriended and kept in touch with several - but that is it. That kind of disappointed me from a fellowship point of view, but there is definitely no signs of a pushy culty type of behavior in all of this.
TWI screwed up a lot of people. But it doesn't have to be the end of their personal growth, and the end of being able to have reasonable trust of people and groups of people. Don't let your bad/evil/difficult experiences live in you in unhealthy ways. I've taken all kinds of hits from all kinds of people and groups - Christian and non Christian - but have miraculously (praise God !) stayed faithful and grown. Right perspective in life can lead to some really nice pastures.
I am not in the business of promoting Momentus or Vision Quest. But I do have an interest in chatting about my experiences in Christian organizations and groups. It's good to compare and contrast and try to figure out how to fellowship without getting screwed. To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs.
Understanding and growth IS what I would like to be all about.
Edited by caribousamLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
It's great that this is NOT your experience with Momentus.
HOWEVER,
we've heard from some other people, and your experience, while not isolated,
is not universal, either.
A lot of people came out of is as more arrogant than when they entered.
Some people *cough* JAL *cough* are still pushing it as THE answer for people,
even if they're pushing it one-on-one.
And as quoted, some people's idea of "responding to feedback" and "dialogue" is
"attack the dissenter." We have eyewitnesses.
Some people *cough* JAL **cough* have, and continue to treat Momentus as some
sort of initiation rite. Those who haven't taken it are "other" and are inferior in some
way, shape or form.
Might I recommend putting a finer magnifying glass on the situation?
While not everyone's had these experiences, enough HAVE that you should be able to
find them without difficulty....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Leaving TWI re-started my personal growth. One of the things I learned from my bad/evil/difficult experiences with that group is that we really shouldn't put our trust in people – when it comes to personal growth or remaining faithful to God...I'm also into discussing experiences with religious groups…I personally think it may benefit you to re-think stuff about Momentus – maybe sharpen up your critical thinking skills ["To develop a sense of smell for good and bad orgs" as you put it]. Reading these links provided by WordWolf, Hammeroni, and Rich is very disturbing. And looking at some other links like 1Broken1's post # 21 – checking out the Association for Christian Character Development.
http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/2
I see that Momentus now re-appears as Breakthrough. [Also – why the name change? Did anyone cover that?] The excerpts [in bold red] below are from this link http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/345
Breakthrough (formerly Momentus): the four-day breakthrough training gives participants the opportunity to discover and realign the belief systems governing their lives. It serves to help participants experience a transformation in their ability to love others as Christ loves them while liberating their consciences to fulfill God's unique purposes for them with freedom, passion, and power.
Specific objectives include discerning and integrating feedback from others; opening new resources for communicating; overcoming bitterness and other relational blocks and reaching forgiveness; releasing creativity; connecting vitally with what one values most; expressing love in a way that is actually experienced by others; appreciating differing points of view; and becoming internally motivated to act powerfully from one's vision of a life worth living.
And this http://www.accd.org/index.cfm/pages/48 is the source of the excerpts below:
How Do We Determine Our Way?
We are still left with the question, "What is His way?" The signposts along the way are often ambiguous and open to divergent interpretation. God, however, provides us with at least three different compasses to assist us in arriving at our calling: our unique gifting, our unique past, and our unique relationships. He has specially gifted each of us, and these gifts are an integral part of our calling to love God and others.
And while our past by no means determines our future, it is a potent source for discovering it. Our relationships with others form the crucible in which God refines our character. Further, others in our lives are, by God's design, to be the recipient of the fruit of our gifts.
End of excerpts from website
That's right -they don't claim they've cornered the market on truth – but they assert God provides three different compasses – and though signposts along your journey may be ambiguous or open to divergent interpretations they'll be more than happy to take your money and tell you what it all means.
I see this stuff as being like those get-rich-quick books. The only ones who get anything from this stuff are the people selling this stuff. Do people really believe there's a get-spiritual-quick-program, or some transforming seminar? In my opinion, the only growth they accelerate is that of the ego. Is it so disappointing if all we get out of Christianity is Christ? Colossians 2:3 does say in Christ are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
…How does a Christian grow and become fruitful? I don't think it can be by any artificial process directed by man or by any shortcuts – not true Christian growth. A Christian's growth is something deeply personal and according to the following passage is a dynamic process of being faithful to Jesus Christ - and the Father, as the Master Gardener, is the only one qualified to remove the things that keep us from bearing fruit.
John 15: 1-5 NASB
1 I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
yo t-bone !
The conversations about this seem to be going in circles. So I'll just say a few words or two, and jump out of the circle for a while...
That's the first time I've heard the stuff about signposts along the way...though I kind of like how they put it. There's a lot of truth there. You talk about folks in these trainings taking your money and interpreting the signposts for you. That is exactly what they DIDN'T do. Yes - I paid money for a class. $150 or something like that - big deal. But in my experience there was never anyone human there to interpret the signposts. There was a God and Jesus there with me who did interpret a lot of signposts. And I did learn a whole lot about how to better trust God in sorting out the "signposts" of life. God can and does work with us as we are. He loves us and wants to make all of our experiences be a time of learning and growth.
A spritual get rich quick program is not at all how I experienced it. I gotta believe that a lot of the over the top negative stuff out there is from folks who had experiences in the classes that were less than fruitful or negative. It's hard for me to say what percentage of folks had postive experiences. The program as I saw it was a program of great potential benefit - with some benefit coming quickly, and some over a longer term period of time. But like any program, I saw that there was a potential that some could get nothing out of the program. Those who came to sit back and sow nothing probably didn't get much out of it. Those who put a lot into the program got a lot out of it.
I'm guessing here about these numbers, but in my training there were 13 people. I'd say 3 got a lot out of the experience. 5 people got a moderate amount of understanding. 4 people didn't get much out of it. 1 person quit after the start - refusing to sign the disclaimer.
If Jesus is really strongly present in any situation, that can bring about personal peace and resolutiuon of issues. Close experiences with Jesus can also lead to situations where people close to you will be offended by your changes - they can no longer push your buttons and make you part of their unholy kingdoms. That is part of what these trainings are/were about. What I'm trying to say is - any real good work sponsored by God and Jesus will not be praised and lauded by all. If this is the case, the training is probably not worth much. Satan and all of his companions and unwitting associates start getting their collective asses in gear when they see the seeds of understanding and godliness starting to take root and blossom among his enemies.
If anyone here besides myself in GS Land has actual experience in a training - Momentus, Vision Quest, or Breakthrough - I would like to hear about it. It's good to have hard data about experiences in the training. Sometimes the web and blogsphere blabber isn't a great representative of reality.
Cheers !
CS
Link to comment
Share on other sites
likeaneagle
tbone
I realy enjoy your post..they are thought thru and from you..you have a great heart..thx for posting
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
I recommended to my wife that she get her driver's license. Despite the fact that daily there are thousands of deaths
due to automobile accidents! I guess I'm not true minister of God. Putting my wife in such danger!! What kind of slug
am I ?!!
Oh ductape - you're ministry is such a soft and loving one, floating on cotton clouds in a land of peace, good will,
and safety. Your followers must be getting along well in this world free of wars, violence, corruption, and sin.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
Hey holy smoke,
Any minister or training worth its salt is going to come under the gun from folks who have other opinions. Last time I checked - there's a spiritual war going on out there. People didn't exactly welcome Jesus with open arms when he started doing miracles, etc. They killed him.
I'm not the final judge of the goodness or badness of these programs/trainings. What I want to say is that there are good opportunites for training and growth out there for Christians. Whatever you do, trust that God will be there to sort it all out. Realize that growth is gonna take risk, and there will be some stumbling, and some falling along the way. Don't close yourself in a bubble because you've been hurt or deceived. The peace and joy and love kingdom of god that Jesus calls us to live in is there for the taking, but it does require action and trust in God above all else. Go for it - God will be with you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
the kingdom of God is not here yet and is not in any sense of the bible there for the taking.
Do you just make stuffup that make you feel self righteous?
the kingdom is Future , Jesus is still preparing it for us and the Hope of His return is to get rid of all the trouble and probems we now deal with. your arrogant and pompus attitude has never worked for any man or woman, it cant change a thing or any circumstance.
what bible do you read?
you do not do you?
if your going to play at least know what the heck your talking about. that just makes you look like an idiot who spews made up phrases .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
So the people that were destroyed didn`t have God there with them? He some how didn`t care enough to see them through...
When you make statements like *God will sort it all out* it means that those whom ended up in a mental hospital or dead some how just don`t matter.
I read some about this momentus, an article from a lady who actually ran and promoted their damned classes for a while.
She put it very well...people who have really hurt folks, people like ex twi leadership embrace it heartilly because in having everyone blame themselves...it absolves the leaders of their guilt, their need to seek forgivness and make restitution where possible to the people they have wounded or destroyed.
This is in direct contradiction to what the scriptures tell us to do concerning a brother that has been wronged.
Of COURSE these guys love it ....it lets them off the hook, just like in twi ....they don`t have to care about those whom they owe an apology and restitution to. Their sheet don`t steenk, it is always someone elses fault.
For heavens sakes, this woman was one of the young girls that had been drugged and raped....and the momentus trainers said that it was her fault that this happened to her and that she needed to take responsibility.
That isn`t what the scriptures say to do about these false ministers, these wolves who ravaged and devoured the flocks they were responsible for....
I can see why it would appeal to some.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
pond
yep
and if you do the class you can now feel better and not have to deal with the pesky guilt or condemation you may very well deserve.
your all better, in fact better than the rest!
another reward for you!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ductape
Rules forbid me for telling you what kind of slug you are. Did your wife need to drive? Oh, I forgot more die every year on our roads than did on 9-11. My bad.
You have no idea about what a hard-a$$ I really am. But, I still won't claim gawd almighty while sending anyone into a dangerous program. I would be glad to put your so tough self through one of my "special" programs. Just sign a waver and pay extra! If you think any higher power works in the hearts of the men that promoted this, you belong with the blind being lead by the blind, TYVM......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Thanks, LikeanEagle!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
[by your standard, then, Jim Jones and David Koresh were also "worth their salt"-
since they "came under the gun from folks who have other opinions",
and died for their religions.
For the rest of us, the question is: are complaints levelled against ministers WITH CAUSE,
or is the minister BLAMELESS?
If a minister is twisting the arm of someone to pay to enter a program that gives them a nervous
breakdown, most of us would consider the victim to have a complaint WITH CAUSE.
Of course, some of us, if we like the program, will instead circle the wagons and blame the
victim instead.
Hm. Many of us already saw that with ONE organization....
and we're watching it play out again right in front of our eyes right on this messageboard.]
[You've been doing a great imitation of that final judge....][And also some amazing danger, pitfalls, predators, traps out there for Christians.]
[Run 'em all thru Momentus- let God sort 'em out!Or maybe obey Hebrews 5:14 and recognize the differences yourself.
Hebrews 5:14 (New American Standard Bible)
"But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil."
Don't let a little thing like God's Word slow down advertising your program, Sparky...]
[On the other hand, there's plenty of risks, stumbling, and falling that is NOT for the mature growth
of Christians.
Want to experience risks, stumbling, and falling?
Fill your pockets with money, then go to New Orleans at the height of Mardi Gras,
then Rio during Carnival,
and wind up the trip in Las Vegas.
You'll experience a lot of risk, stumbling, and falling, all of it far outside of any bubble you were in.
You'll also have a HECK of a lot more fun than a weekend of being locked in a room with people
yelling at you.
And there's no guarantee you won't grow a lot more than the yelling thing.
(No guarantee you won't catch a venereal disease either, but if you want a REAL stumblingblock to
your flesh, it sounds like one of the more interesting ones.)
So, "take action"- buy your plane tickets, and "trust in God above all else.
Go for it-God will be with you."
Hey- let's apply that advice CONSISTENTLY, if we're going to apply it.]
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.