CES and Momentous

[ChasUFarley]

When I hear "Vision Quest" all I can think about is a sweaty wrestler skipping roap...

[Ham]

Naw, I'm not bitter.

I am kind of taken back with J.L.'s recommendation of momentus, though. Did you look at the link? The guy that runs it does not show very many qualifications. "ordained minister" doesn't say a whole heck of a lot. Did he ordain himself? What qualifies him to work on another human being's brain?

Possibly J.L. "ordained" him? It would be like one hand washing the other.

Too many questions, and they apparently aren't offering very many answers.

Or qualifications.

I had a thought of calling up the church he claims he did some work for, but I just don't have the time.

I feel sorry for the companies that contracted him for God knows what, especially after seeing what the momentus product does to human beings.

The website does NOT say "SATISFIED customers", at least what I read there.

After reading about folks being instructed to beat a pillow and scream "mommy", it just kind of puts all of the things I've known and read about CES in proper perspective.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

I agree with ya Hammer...I've beaten this "Momentus" horse with so many lashes, I'm surprised that it has any hide left...

...It's true that I never took Momentus...but I never got hit by a bus either...

[ChasUFarley]

Naw, I'm not bitter.

I am kind of taken back with J.L.'s recommendation of momentus, though. Did you look at the link? The guy that runs it does not show very many qualifications. "ordained minister" doesn't say a whole heck of a lot. Did he ordain himself? What qualifies him to work on another human being's brain?

Possibly J.L. "ordained" him? It would be like one hand washing the other.

Too many questions, and they apparently aren't offering very many answers.

Or qualifications.

I had a thought of calling up the church he claims he did some work for, but I just don't have the time.

I feel sorry for the companies that contracted him for God knows what, especially after seeing what the momentus product does to human beings.

The website does NOT say "SATISFIED customers", at least what I read there.

After reading about folks being instructed to beat a pillow and scream "mommy", it just kind of puts all of the things I've known and read about CES in proper perspective.

Do you always believe EVERYTHING you read?

I have a green card for you to look at...

[Ham]

Do you always believe EVERYTHING you read?

I have a green card for you to look at...

ooooooh, doody doody. Where do I sign??

[Ham]

I don't think the horse is quite dead yet.

from http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/rec_mombarton.htm

Bill Barton writes:

We also were required to bring in pillows to beat on during a session in which we laid a good portion of our problems on our parents. As we beat on the pillows, shouting "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy" and "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy," this act was supposed to "free us" of hidden resentments we'd harbored for all the "evil things our parents had done to us" when we were little.

I dunno. It seems to me that something like this would be such an embarrasment, what would be his motive to make it up?

In November 1994, my wife and I participated in a four-day training experience called Momentus. We were persuaded to take Momentus byJOHN A. LYNN, head of a group called Christian Educational Services (CES). He said that Momentus was a Christian training that would help us "get closer to the Lord and to His people." It didn't

And Johnny boy has recommended it as late as 2006, according to one poster, if I remember it correctly.. can't find it at the moment.

This is what he was promoting.

The first two days of the training ended with the "Lifeboat" exercise, in which we were forced to condemn our brothers and sisters to "life or death." Who "lived" and who "died" depended on who we voted into the lifeboat after a visualization session in which we were on a cruise ship that started sinking. It taught us that those who live the kind of life the world values- the loud, aggressive, pushy, hey-listen-to me-and-forget-about-you types of personalities, who attract lots of attention to themselves (as some had in the training thus far)--would end up in the lifeboat and be saved. Those exhibiting such godly traits as meekness, humility, self-denial--in short, any traits that failed to bring lots of attention to themselves ended up in the water, "dead." We then had to give our "epitaphs" from our watery graves about how worthless we were. This, more than anything else, revealed the true nature of Momentus to me--its focus on aggrandizing the self over anything else. People were worked up by the trainers to actually experience acute emotional pain over having to "condemn others to death" in what was a manipulative mind game.

Maybe this explains the board's behavior. The agression, bullying.. firing (condemning to death) those who may not be as "strong"..

and it explains sufficiently for me, J.L.'s pontificating, pushy "hey, listen to ME" letter here.

I don't think things have changed.. I just think they finally turned inward on themselves.

[Ham]

I wonder if they have considered a home version, do it yourself experience. For half the price, they could offer a package with a "killing the victiim" book, a pillow, and an overdose of digitalis to simulate a heart attack..

"hold harmless" agreement would be required to be signed with the order..

[Ductape]

In November 1994, my wife and I participated in a four-day training experience called Momentus. We were persuaded to take Momentus byJOHN A. LYNN, head of a group called Christian Educational Services (CES). He said that Momentus was a Christian training that would help us "get closer to the Lord and to His people." It didn't

We also were required to bring in pillows to beat on during a session in which we laid a good portion of our problems on our parents. As we beat on the pillows, shouting "Mommy, Mommy, Mommy" and "Daddy, Daddy, Daddy," this act was supposed to "free us" of hidden resentments we'd harbored for all the "evil things our parents had done to us" when we were little.

Maybe a good Christian training would be to beat Rev.'s yelling Rev. Rev. Rev. as I am sure a good portion of our "problems" lay with our former cult leaders.

Oops, I meant beat pillows yelling that............... really I did!

How anyone can squeeze Christian into a program like Momentus? Christ died for your sins but now beat this pillow blaming your saintly Christian parents. Honor your Father and Mother which is the first commandment with promise, the promise being you can blame them for being screwed up enough to follow men that think Momentus is Christian

Edited February 21, 2007 by Ductape

[ChasUFarley]

I think it varied on the "trainers"... Hubby says there wasn't any of that crapola in his experience with the program... but he still thinks its not for everyone - that he just happened to get something out of it and maybe had decent trainers in it...

[excathedra]

maybe they should just allow christ to heal the child within.....

but what do i know

[Ham]

Maybe a lot. :)

[Ham]

Here are a few quotations of the hold harmless agreement

"(I understand) the risks involved in the TRAININGS and activities" (Paragraph 11)

"This release from liability includes loss, damage or injury resulting from the negligence of (Breakthrough's entities)... from any other cause or causes." (Paragraphs 13 and 12)

"This shall apply to all claims including allegations that there have been wrongful acts or omission by (Breakthrough's entities) either intentionally or otherwise." (Paragraph 19)

"...including any claims caused by the negligence of the indemnified parties." (Paragraph 22)

"...I do not expect the TRAINING to be administered with the standard of care expected of trained mental healthy professionals." (Paragraph 7)

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_unethicalharmless.htm

Theoretically, they could beat you to a bloody pulp, and you have no recourse, if a judge and jury would hold the agreement valid.

"standard of care"- no professional standard.

Doesn't sound like a "church" I would want to have anything to do with.

[Ham]

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm

Momentus' beating pillow exercise is the prime example of "letting it out" or "venting,". But people were also encouraged to vent against others in the training. Examples of this from my training include couples who got up and tore each other apart, trainees attacking those who let their "buddies" leave the training, and those pressuring the ones who didn't complete their homework when the trainer threatened to "stop the training" if it wasn't complete.

More from the same:

I've long considered Momentus to be of the primal scream therapy school. The screaming the book describes is simply a more intense form of the pillow exercise in Momentus. The difference is only in degree. (I never saw any of the trainees go into near-convulsions--but as we were all supposed to keep our eyes closed during the exercise, I can't really say that no one didn't.) I found out later that the team keeps "barf bags" on hand for trainees who get so upset that they vomit. The screaming was harrowing and very unnerving, however, even while trying to participate in it.

I haven't heard any rebuttal- I can only assume that this is typical of the momentus "experience", and J.L. and crew did "participate" in these early days the story here describes.

Honestly, I don't need to pay somebody $150.00 to learn how to beat on a pillow and scream..

[doojable]

The spider has spoken.......

[Ham]

More from Bill Barton:

As I've discovered since, this "hold harmless" agreement is a fraudulent contract, because we were not adequately informed of what the training consisted of at that point. We were told, if we didn't sign the agreement, we either had to pay up an additional $300 to the trainers on the spot--or leave the training (and we wouldn't receive a refund of our original $150 fee). So, we signed--we had too much invested in the training at that point to do otherwis

So.. you pay your money, buy your pillow, show up for the "meeting". Ah, a mere formality, sign the little waiver AFTER PAYING FOR THE CLASS, OR YOU LOSE YOUR MONEY AND ARE ESCORTED OUT OF THE BUILDING.

Unless you pull three nice crisp 100 dollar bills out on the spot..

I bet they didn't take checks..

"well, everybody else is doing it, professional trainers, etc. etc.."

but they are NOT professional. Admitted as such (see previous post).

I think that is the only way that they could force a signature. If it was up front before you ponied up the money, people would be rather suspicious, and would not sign.

Yeah, I'd sign, if they signed one holding me harmless from what I would do to THEM. Then I'd get my money back.

[outandabout]

Honestly, I don't need to pay somebody $150.00 to learn how to beat on a pillow and scream..

Edited February 23, 2007 by outandabout

[Ham]

"WE, THE BOARD AND LEGAL REPRESENTATIVES OF STFI/MOMENUS/LIFESPRING OR MISCELLANEOUS PILLOW BEATERS OFFICIALLY RELINQUISH ANY LEGAL CLAIM, REAL OR IMAGINED, PAST, PRESENT OR FUTURE, TO LEGALLY ACCOST HAM, OR SEEK LEGAL REMEDY FROM HIM, OR ANY OF HIS AGENTS, FOR ANY ACTS OF WRONGDOING, BY OMISSION OR COMISSION, ACCIDENTAL OR MALICIOUS, OR OTHERWISE.

SUCH ACTS SHALL INCLUDE, BUT NOT BE LIMITED TO:

BLUGEONING, REMOVAL OF TEETH AND/OR HAIR, TEARING OF CLOTHES, BITING, LOOTING, COMMITING MAYHEM WITH EXTREME PREJUDICE, STRANGULATION, SHOOTING, BRAIN SURGERY WITH A DULL BONE KNIFE, OR BAD HUMOR.

WE FURTHER ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THIS "TRAINING" IS NOT FOR EVERYBODY, AND DO NOT EXPECT ANY RESULTS, OTHER THAN THOSE LISTED ABOVE.

-------------------------------------- ---------------------

Authorized Signature Date

Now I'll go to church with you..

Edited February 23, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

And to you who think that enough is enough here, I only say..

Save your money. Why pay good money to beat an innocent pillow, when we have a perfectly suitable dead horse HERE..

[T-Bone]

...Honestly, I don't need to pay somebody $150.00 to learn how to beat on a pillow and scream..

It's not nice to put down someone's religion – unless their religion happens to be filled with down...well...technically if their religion was filled with down you couldn't put any more down in it...Maybe that's why they're beating and screaming at the pillow - make room for more down...Oh never mind...I'm not gonna lose any sleep over it...unless of course that was my pillow they're beating...And another thing - after having spiders on the witness stand - what self-respecting attorney would want to handle the Pillow Case?

Edited February 23, 2007 by T-Bone

[doojable]

And another thing - after having spiders on the witness stand - what self-respecting attorney would want to handle the Pillow Case?

I'd guess it depends on what's in that pillow case.....lots of large bills might pursuade many an attorney.

Edited February 23, 2007 by doojable

[Ham]

And there's more..

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/mom_psychtechniq.htm

A Secular Training Method or Christian Ministry?

The Association for Christian Character Development (ACCD; which offers the Momentus series) claims to be a Christian ministry, and therefore trainers must be treated as church elders in ministry. Yet, in the Momentus training manuals, the religious/Christian nature is hardly apparent. Instead, the training describes itself in the same kinds of secular terms which Lifespring or est would use. In other words, it appears to be primarily a behavior/ human potential training with Christian values mixed in. Here are some examples:

+ Operating Standards Manual always calls the leader a "trainer," never an "elder" or other Christian terms. It is always called a "training." The "Personal Assessment Form" filled out by recruits has 16 questions, only one of which broaches any spiritual content. Many items are commonly found in popular psychology

+ The psychological (rather than spiritual)nature of the training, is assumed and alluded to again and again. Recruits are extensively questioned about their mental health and any medications they may be taking for psychological problems,

+ The trainer's introduction script directs him to say that the training is from a Christian perspective (Christian songs and Bible verses are used). But at the same time it disavows religious and Christian content (nonchristian songs and quotes are also used): "This training is not about your religion or lack of it; this training is about how you govern your vision or what matters to you into existence." In other words, people can benefit from the training even though they have no Christian beliefs and gain no Christian transformation from the training. It is saying that the central theme and impact is psychological rather than spiritual.

OK. So they are not "christian" as such, but act as PSYCHOLOGISTS and THERAPISTS.

Why would one contract their services?

1. They are cheaper. Really?

Let's say you save $5,000.00 by going to them instead of a real therapist or counsellor..

let's subtract:

The 20,000 you lost in your divorce settlement, after your tore your spouse to shreds during the training..

The additional thousands you incurred fixing psychological problems incurred by the "training"..

The respect you lost from the christian community around you, and the cost of that can't even be estimated.

2. They know what they are doing.

Sadly, they probably do.

3. They came recommended.

I'd feel betrayed.

[cman]

what has been Incorporated into a 'ministry'

has been done by many without charge

as the spirit moves

to take what Christ can do and turn it

to men doing what the spirit is to do is an atrocity

to force an act of the spirit against ones will is wrong

best know what you are getting into

both speaker and hearer

[Ham]

to take what Christ can do and turn it

to men doing what the spirit is to do is an atrocity

Good point. I would add, if you try to take spirit, bottle and sell it, it turns into snake oil.

[caribousam]

http://www.uia.net/~messiah7/brk_fringepsych.htm

More from the same:

I haven't heard any rebuttal- I can only assume that this is typical of the momentus "experience", and J.L. and crew did "participate" in these early days the story here describes.

Honestly, I don't need to pay somebody $150.00 to learn how to beat on a pillow and scream..

Hammer,

Yourself and a few others here at GS have the habit of wildly exaggerating and going over the top to cause destruction. Like vultures going in for the kill at any sign of weakness or error.

So here is more fodder for you...Yep I went through the pillow exercise at Vision Quest. It was enlightening. It wasn't a cure all for all my foibles. It was a way of opening my eyes to certain unresolved bitterness.

Momentus and Vision Quest and the like are good for some, not so good for others. I don't think you would be able to handle it well. Doesn't make you better or worse than me or anybody else. This kind of training just isn't right for you.

[Ham]

This kind of training just isn't right for you.

no kidding.

Still.. why would they spring the hold harmless agreement on people, AFTER they've purchased the "product"?

It's very suspect, to me. It's almost like, "oh, by the way, we are not mental health professionals. If we beat the snot out of you, it's YOUR 'problem'"

It doesn't sit very well with me.

If you got something out of the experience, good for you.. others apparently were not as lucky.