I don't see anything wrong with a group like CES promoting Momentus. But tHe thing about these kinds of intense training courses is - people must be mature enough and ready for something like this. Talking a deeper look into the reality of ourselves and the world around us can be too much to stomach for a lot of people...
...Yep, it's pretty simple. Some are not ready or willing to confront the crap that lives in them.
Got it ?
and let's hope if you're too immature and have a nervous breakdown, there are trained professionals on site....
and let's hope you learn to deal with it....
oh and of course learn to deal with the crap that lives within....
If I were bungee jumping, or sky diving.. or mountain climbing.. (of the which I don't plan to do :) )
I can understand the need for a hold-harmless agreement. Makes perfect sense.. if you plan on doing an extremely hazardous activity, you're on your own.
But a "christian self-improvement seminar"? What is it, bungee jumping for the Lord?
Wasn't that LEAD????
And I didn't sign a hold-harmless agreement.......
Oh, and Excie - that is GREAT! Everyone needs to have a brain like that......
I completed a seminar that was very similar to Momentus - Vision Quest - and I had an enlightening experience. It was also exhausting, and very difficult at times in places where I had to face some of the less noble or weaker parts of myself. But in the end, I learned a whole lot about myself and how to connect with God, and discoverd or rediscoverd some of the more important points about being a Christian man. It was for me a productive, positive, character building time...
That said, I would say that this type of training is not for everyone...those that are not ready might not have such fruitful experiences.
No I don't think that CES's involvement with Momentus was an example of being blown about by every wind of doctrine. I think it was an example of them realizing that CES/STFI doesn't hold all the answers - doctrinally or practically - so it is a wise thing to collaborate with others of good reputation.
CES/STFI has made a lot of mistakes, but I don't see their involvement with Momentus as a mistake. IMHO.
CES/STFI promoted a lot more then Momentus that they didn't fully check into before putting their stamp of approval on it. Momentus was the least of their problems.
My husband took Momentus and got something out of it - overall, he had a good experience, sifting through the Word he knows. He was never a 'company man' for TWI or CES/STFI. His experience was similar to The Evan's experience.
But there were some problems with the program and some of the instructors which should have been taken care of LONG before things got as out of hand as they did.
Additionally, in our area at least, there was a minister who gleefully took a stolen inheritance as ABS (knowing it was stolen), condemned people who wouldn't sleep with him or let their daughter sleep with them, and got a minor pregnant.
Did CES/STFI come up this way to help with the train wrecks this guy made of the local fellowships? Heck NO!
Did CES/STFI do any damage control or address any of the issues with those who were hurt? Heck NO!
Did CES/STFI try to help out any of the people who were hurt by this butt munch of a minister? Heck NO!
They might have good intentions at the beginning but they aren't willing to clean up their messes when a mess is made - hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil... this is where they are WRONG!
exie - because of the wide range of results people have who take it (which I suspect has to do with the instructors who are allowed to run the class unchecked), Hubby NEVER recommended it for me - or anyone, now that I think about it, in the whole 7 years we've been together.
Momentus, done correctly, probably could have been a good thing. Sounds like it was a royal mess in how it was managed.
...My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.
Good Point.
Regardless of which road we choose,
we have an actively present Savior
who is with us to the end
and is able to subdue all things to his own will.
I don't ever expect to subject myself to a Momentous style training,
but I can't deny the Savior has worked in the process for many who have gone through it.
I've also seen him work his work in the lives of those who don't go through the process.
I just rejoice when I see him working.
I agree with that…And that's why I can say the same thing about my TWI experience. I am the culmination of all my experiences – both good and bad. And perhaps not all situations or experiences are either good or bad – but maybe it's the way I process them.
Being a Christian the way I view my TWI years is as follows: sometimes God worked things out because of what somebody did [meaning myself and/or other person(s)]– and sometimes He worked things out in spite of what somebody [meaning myself and/or other person(s)] did. And sometimes things just didn't work out …After Geer's Patriarch epistle – I began realizing more and more that the TWI environment [many of their doctrines, practices, mentality, programs] was not very conducive to obeying God Almighty…not very God-friendly…it was more about revering TWI's interpretation of God and the Bible…living up to TWI's standards – not God's.
When somebody says "this program will help you clear out the crap in your life." I ask who determines what is crap? When somebody says "this program is only for those who are mature or ready." I ask who determines when somebody is mature or ready?
My point in all this is to give you the reason for my low opinion of Momentus or any reasonable facsimile. And that's all it is – my opinion…The Way Corps defined for me what was crap in my life…Now I will take responsibility for the decision to go in the Corps. I was such a doggone sap for TWI leadership telling me "you're Corps material, you've got potential, you don't want to let down God or His people – you need to go Corps," I figured I was mature enough and ready for it…Sorry if I came off harsh or hyper-critical – that's a mixture of a lot of cappuccino and mental baggage from the years when I let a cult run my life – so I don't take too well to anything that looks even remotely like how they did things.
I agree with that…And that's why I can say the same thing about my TWI experience. I am the culmination of all my experiences – both good and bad. And perhaps not all situations or experiences are either good or bad – but maybe it's the way I process them.
Being a Christian the way I view my TWI years is as follows: sometimes God worked things out because of what somebody did [meaning myself and/or other person(s)]– and sometimes He worked things out in spite of what somebody [meaning myself and/or other person(s)] did. And sometimes things just didn't work out …After Geer's Patriarch epistle – I began realizing more and more that the TWI environment [many of their doctrines, practices, mentality, programs] was not very conducive to obeying God Almighty…not very God-friendly…it was more about revering TWI's interpretation of God and the Bible…living up to TWI's standards – not God's.
When somebody says "this program will help you clear out the crap in your life." I ask who determines what is crap? When somebody says "this program is only for those who are mature or ready." I ask who determines when somebody is mature or ready?
My point in all this is to give you the reason for my low opinion of Momentus or any reasonable facsimile. And that's all it is – my opinion…The Way Corps defined for me what was crap in my life…Now I will take responsibility for the decision to go in the Corps. I was such a doggone sap for TWI leadership telling me "you're Corps material, you've got potential, you don't want to let down God or His people – you need to go Corps," I figured I was mature enough and ready for it…Sorry if I came off harsh or hyper-critical – that's a mixture of a lot of cappuccino and mental baggage from the years when I let a cult run my life – so I don't take too well to anything that looks even remotely like how they did things.
Hey Tbone...cool. I'm glad that you seem to have your "head on straight." Looks like God has given you a fair share of wisdom and knowledge. Yep, how we process or react to all that happens in life is in great part up to us. Some things are just instinctual or "no time to think reaction" but there is an awful lot of stuff where we have to take repsonsibility to do what is right....
Vision Quest, (aka Momentus) helped me to get a clearer picture about how some of all that works...
I was in the Way as well but mostly took from it a lot of good things - knowledge, experience, connection to God...but I sensed the writing on the wall in the late 80's - a sense that the group was falling into an abyss - so I headed for greener spiritual pastures...I thank God that I came through pretty much unscathed. It seems to be the same with Vision Quest - I was able to sift some good among all the junk that was going on....
I'm told that I can be awful naive at times... maybe that dumb innocence has served me well...
I wonder if they view momentus as some kind of "advanced class" in their curriculum. Only for da faithful, those who are "mature" enough to have come to the realization that they owe their very lives to da ministry..
I wonder what color of a name tag you get in the process.
When I hear the words "mature" or "ready", I get this sick feeling.
Would it be an honest assessment to state that all of the upper hierarchy in CES are momentus "grads"?
Yeah. I can see how something like might have a few benefits, not to an individual, but a COMPANY.
Find out who's weak. Destructive testing though, in my opinion.
Significant that the whole board is/has been involved with spiders and dreams and such. Maybe they are a product of their momentus experience after all.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I must say that it IS interesting to see the people who promoted "Momentus" having such difficulties themselves now... ...Maybe it's just a coincidence that the folks who were so heavily into this ps
excathedra
and let's hope if you're too immature and have a nervous breakdown, there are trained professionals on site....
and let's hope you learn to deal with it....
oh and of course learn to deal with the crap that lives within....
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Ham
Yep.. no accountability. If you get the "results", whoopee. Praise the program..
If your brain gets turned into swiss cheese, well, you were immature. Praise the program..
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Abigail
And isn't there at least some degree of pressure in the implication? "What? You don't want to participate in the program? Boy are you immature!!!"
Yup, TWI tactics all over again.
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excathedra
listen if you can't stomach it abi, move on.....
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Abigail
Smile when you say that, damn it!!!
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excathedra
okay damnit
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WhiteDove
Stop it you guys are killing me here!
This is your brain
This is your brain on Momentus
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excathedra
don't start with the brain thing
i need momentus
--
am i moderated now
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doojable
Wasn't that LEAD????
And I didn't sign a hold-harmless agreement.......
Oh, and Excie - that is GREAT! Everyone needs to have a brain like that......
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ChasUFarley
CES/STFI promoted a lot more then Momentus that they didn't fully check into before putting their stamp of approval on it. Momentus was the least of their problems.
My husband took Momentus and got something out of it - overall, he had a good experience, sifting through the Word he knows. He was never a 'company man' for TWI or CES/STFI. His experience was similar to The Evan's experience.
But there were some problems with the program and some of the instructors which should have been taken care of LONG before things got as out of hand as they did.
Additionally, in our area at least, there was a minister who gleefully took a stolen inheritance as ABS (knowing it was stolen), condemned people who wouldn't sleep with him or let their daughter sleep with them, and got a minor pregnant.
Did CES/STFI come up this way to help with the train wrecks this guy made of the local fellowships? Heck NO!
Did CES/STFI do any damage control or address any of the issues with those who were hurt? Heck NO!
Did CES/STFI try to help out any of the people who were hurt by this butt munch of a minister? Heck NO!
They might have good intentions at the beginning but they aren't willing to clean up their messes when a mess is made - hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil... this is where they are WRONG!
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excathedra
i see what you are saying chas
and to you
i'll never be ready, thank you very much
momentus on !!!!!!!
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ChasUFarley
exie - because of the wide range of results people have who take it (which I suspect has to do with the instructors who are allowed to run the class unchecked), Hubby NEVER recommended it for me - or anyone, now that I think about it, in the whole 7 years we've been together.
Momentus, done correctly, probably could have been a good thing. Sounds like it was a royal mess in how it was managed.
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T-Bone
I agree with that…And that's why I can say the same thing about my TWI experience. I am the culmination of all my experiences – both good and bad. And perhaps not all situations or experiences are either good or bad – but maybe it's the way I process them.
Being a Christian the way I view my TWI years is as follows: sometimes God worked things out because of what somebody did [meaning myself and/or other person(s)]– and sometimes He worked things out in spite of what somebody [meaning myself and/or other person(s)] did. And sometimes things just didn't work out …After Geer's Patriarch epistle – I began realizing more and more that the TWI environment [many of their doctrines, practices, mentality, programs] was not very conducive to obeying God Almighty…not very God-friendly…it was more about revering TWI's interpretation of God and the Bible…living up to TWI's standards – not God's.
When somebody says "this program will help you clear out the crap in your life." I ask who determines what is crap? When somebody says "this program is only for those who are mature or ready." I ask who determines when somebody is mature or ready?
My point in all this is to give you the reason for my low opinion of Momentus or any reasonable facsimile. And that's all it is – my opinion…The Way Corps defined for me what was crap in my life…Now I will take responsibility for the decision to go in the Corps. I was such a doggone sap for TWI leadership telling me "you're Corps material, you've got potential, you don't want to let down God or His people – you need to go Corps," I figured I was mature enough and ready for it…Sorry if I came off harsh or hyper-critical – that's a mixture of a lot of cappuccino and mental baggage from the years when I let a cult run my life – so I don't take too well to anything that looks even remotely like how they did things.
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Ham
Yeah, what he said..
Some "crap" I really need.
I think it is typical of vey practices. Define a problem that you do not have, and then invent a cure that you don't need, or are better off without.
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Calflor
Just what we all need, fabricated problems on top of all our "real" problems.
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caribousam
Hey Tbone...cool. I'm glad that you seem to have your "head on straight." Looks like God has given you a fair share of wisdom and knowledge. Yep, how we process or react to all that happens in life is in great part up to us. Some things are just instinctual or "no time to think reaction" but there is an awful lot of stuff where we have to take repsonsibility to do what is right....
Vision Quest, (aka Momentus) helped me to get a clearer picture about how some of all that works...
I was in the Way as well but mostly took from it a lot of good things - knowledge, experience, connection to God...but I sensed the writing on the wall in the late 80's - a sense that the group was falling into an abyss - so I headed for greener spiritual pastures...I thank God that I came through pretty much unscathed. It seems to be the same with Vision Quest - I was able to sift some good among all the junk that was going on....
I'm told that I can be awful naive at times... maybe that dumb innocence has served me well...
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excathedra
wish i could say the same ;)
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Ham
I wonder if they view momentus as some kind of "advanced class" in their curriculum. Only for da faithful, those who are "mature" enough to have come to the realization that they owe their very lives to da ministry..
I wonder what color of a name tag you get in the process.
When I hear the words "mature" or "ready", I get this sick feeling.
Would it be an honest assessment to state that all of the upper hierarchy in CES are momentus "grads"?
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Ham
"minister?"
Interesting the fella doesn't mention where he got ordained, or what schools or qualifications.
Person would have to have some REAL qualifications before I let them work on MY head with a pickaxe..
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Rejoice
YES...they are ALL grads of Momentus. Some have even gone on to be counselors with Vision Quest.
None have any credentials in psychology to be messing with peoples minds and emotions like those organizations do.
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Ham
That answers many, many questions.
Especially the one, "why are they sooooo screwed up.."
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Ham
Yeah. I can see how something like might have a few benefits, not to an individual, but a COMPANY.
Find out who's weak. Destructive testing though, in my opinion.
Significant that the whole board is/has been involved with spiders and dreams and such. Maybe they are a product of their momentus experience after all.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Just call me Groucho the sniper.
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caribousam
Hey Hammeroni,
You seem like you might have bitterness hanging around yourself. If so, get rid of it - it's an anchor that
you don't want to be lugging around. If it's not the case - cool.
Anyhow, this topic has run its course for me..I am kind of tired listening to folks gripe and
complainsts about Momentus/Vision Quest.
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