There's another way to look at it, many people don't believe that these programs are the right way to deal with issues in their lives - it has nothing to do with their level of 'maturity' - whatever you mean by that.
CS, I'm not saying you are doing this, but it is manipulative to accuse people of not taking a program because they lack maturity and are not willing to take a 'deeper look' into their lives. I've heard this from all the multi-level marketing 'pay-per-use' psycho-babble programs, including the grandpapa of vision quest, EST.
For those unfamiliar with the foundation of Momentus, Vision Quest, Life Spring, etc etc - read about it here. It's pretty twisted and the current versions sound ~very similar~. And if you do support Momentus and did have a 'positive experience' with it, I think (IMHO) you have a responsibility to be familiar with it's roots and concepts if you're going to recommend it to others while your are representing Christ.
"The Training Series consists of the Discovery Seminar, Breakthrough Training, and The Clearing. We also offer the One Accord Workshop for married couples. Each of these unique experiential events are designed to produce maximum transformational growth in a short period of time. In addition, we have a one day workshop, Imagine.The Clearing is available to Breakthrough Grads. We also have a two day workshop for men, My Father's Eyes."
I know I'm boring, but Biblical growth always seems to look like, 'a tree planted by the river of living water.' No one likes to watch a tree grow, or paint dry, it's very boring, and also not 'maximum transformational growth' but it is in the bible, like God having people sit in a desert for 40 years, or Jesus preparing for 30 years to minister for 3.
Here is a 2007 initiative from ACCD off their website.
"Public Relations Initiative - Walk out Matthew 18 initiative for every online ACCD detractor. Prepare to litigate against those who print defamatory content about ACCD online, and are unwilling to walk out Matthew 18 regarding this offense, and proceed accordingly, as needed."
Litigation is completely against 1 Cor 6:1-8, as has come up in the CES/STFI MG discussions. Kind of disconcerting that people want to jump to litigation for online detractors, gosh, like um, hmmm... like this site has been for other groups. This is not like litigation because someone took stole your money or swiped a deed from a widow, this is people threatening to sue other Christians who were involved in the program and airing their concerns to other Christians. These are the people that DEVELOPED the program.
If and when people are ready to confront the 'crap' that lives in them churches should take a Biblical approach starting with calling on Jesus. People call Momentus a 'training course' - what does it train you in? What does it train you to do? If it is an approach to pursue Godliness is it found in the Bible? Does it replace the Bible and a relationship with Jesus? Are you instructed to do the Biblical things first, and then do this, or do them both, or primarily focus on the 'training?'
Can you picture Jesus as a Momentus trainer or attendee yelling at you and telling you to punch a pillow and yell at your parents? Honestly I cannot.
There are plenty of worldly programs that offer 'results' that have nothing to do with the Bible, and programs that claim to change believers and unbelievers alike are certainly not doing it by the transforming of their minds (biblically) or the power of the holy spirit.
Churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus.
I am not actively promoting these particular trainings. I am only saying that I had an overall positive and frutiful
experience at Vision Quest. And that this type of training is not for everyone. Sometimes we need to get out of comfortable and/or set ways of being and doing if want want to grow. Sometimes growing will be painful. As a Christian, I seek out better ways to give, to grow, and to learn. Prayerful thought, study, and prayer often takes me to places that I know are right but might sometimes seem unusual or strange to others. I've long ago learend to confidently take to the roads that seem right, often despite the criticism of family and friends...and it has made all the difference!!
The Road Not Taken - by Robert Frost
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Well Jesus did do some radical things, so it's a not so hard for me to see him using some unorthodox methods. Sending pigs into the sea, raising his voice to raise the dead and quiet a storm, and confronting the religious establishment of the time make him pretty radical.
Yes churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus. Unfortunately this is often not the case. What a lot of churches seem to be into is growing in size, collecting money, and throwing out some Biblical crumbs so that people keep coming back. The reality is - professing, devout, serious Bible believing Christians are some of the most messed up people around. At least that is true here in Massachusetts.
My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.
I have been diagnosed as bi-polar. I took Momentus in 1994 and had not had a manic episode for 12 years.
After Momentus I ended up psychotic and hospitalized.
CES holds that position that those who had problems after Momentus had a hard time "confronting things about themselves."
I think there's a little more to it than that.
One other thing - I wasn't particularly interested in Momentus but some one I knew who took it was really motivated to get me to take it. Without being pushed by this person, I probably wouldn't have gotten involved.
I don't want to sound like a jerk...but...blaming others for decsions YOU make is going to get you into trouble, especially if you are a Christian.
I pretty much agree with that CES position about those who have problems due to this training. If that is not what it is, what is it ? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I appreciate a deep dive into things like this. It is important to know and understand the roots of all of this if possible...I would like to really understand the good and the bad in these types of training. Don't point me to a web site. Let me hear about YOUR experience...if possible...
They have evidence that primitive people performed brain surgery with bone knifves too. There is some evidence that the patients lived for that matter.. nobody knows how well, or whether they still had all of their "marbles".
Somehow, the idea of letting some brute with a loud voice and a bone knife work on my brain to expose my most secret faults does not sound very appealing. No wonder they want a hold harmless paper signed. A psychologist does not need a hold harmless agreement.
People who study psychology know we are still in the dark ages of understanding, as far as human thought and behavior is concerned.
The momentus guys apparently think they know better. Yep.. go boldly where angels fear to tread..
rip some "crap" out of somebody's head.
I'd rather keep the "crap".
I'd as soon have the witchdoctor work me over with a bone knife, as trust these characters.
I have been diagnosed as bi-polar. I took Momentus in 1994 and had not had a manic episode for 12 years.
After Momentus I ended up psychotic and hospitalized.
CES holds that position that those who had problems after Momentus had a hard time "confronting things about themselves."
It is too convenient to blame the consequences of the "treatment" on the victim (patient).
LEAD was a good place for normal physically healthy people to learn some physical and spiritual things.
But sending a quadriplegic in a wheel chair and then tieing him into a rope and telling him to climb the rocks.....
It don't work bro.
When I took Momentus the trainers said it was for LEADERS. Then they sat there and told us we had no right to define what a LEADER was, just sign up everybody and let them make the decision. So then people just released from mental institutions and currently on psychotropic drugs were enrolled.....
It was so sad to watch the consequences.
It has to be about quality of care for your brothers and sisters and not about quantity.
I am not actively promoting these particular trainings. I am only saying that I had an overall positive and frutiful
experience at Vision Quest. And that this type of training is not for everyone. Sometimes we need to get out of comfortable and/or set ways of being and doing if want want to grow. Sometimes growing will be painful. As a Christian, I seek out better ways to give, to grow, and to learn. Prayerful thought, study, and prayer often takes me to places that I know are right but might sometimes seem unusual or strange to others. I've long ago learend to confidently take to the roads that seem right, often despite the criticism of family and friends...and it has made all the difference!!
The Road Not Taken - by Robert Frost
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Well Jesus did do some radical things, so it's a not so hard for me to see him using some unorthodox methods. Sending pigs into the sea, raising his voice to raise the dead and quiet a storm, and confronting the religious establishment of the time make him pretty radical.
Yes churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus. Unfortunately this is often not the case. What a lot of churches seem to be into is growing in size, collecting money, and throwing out some Biblical crumbs so that people keep coming back. The reality is - professing, devout, serious Bible believing Christians are some of the most messed up people around. At least that is true here in Massachusetts.
My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.
Bi-polar and all depression patients have 2 things in common, low selfesteme and unworthyness.
also people use illness like bipolar as a copout. As a cert life coach the stats i recieve is that there are 3 million people with bi-polar disorder in the US. When I read the local paper or talk with all the people that claim to have it, they all live in my town.
It's become the new virus. everybodies getting it.
"How much can you earn as a Certified Life Coach? - The earning potential you have as a Certified Life Coach with the Life Coach Institute is limited only by how much you choose to work. The average Life Coach in the U.S. today charges from $250 to $750 per month per client. (What you charge will be up to you.) Let’s say you want to earn $4000.00 per month as a coach. To earn that amount you’d need to have just ten full-time clients at an average rate of $400.00 per month, per client. If you charged a higher fee of $650.00 per client, as an example, you would need only six clients to reach your $4,000.00 monthly goal. "
Bi-polar and all depression patients have 2 things in common, low selfesteme and unworthyness.
also people use illness like bipolar as a copout. As a cert life coach the stats i recieve is that there are 3 million people with bi-polar disorder in the US. When I read the local paper or talk with all the people that claim to have it, they all live in my town.
It's become the new virus. everybodies getting it.
And yet, only a licensed professional should decided whether a person is or is not bipolar. Only a licensed professional should attempt to treat any form of psychological or emotional disorder.
Bi-polar and all depression patients have 2 things in common, low selfesteme and unworthyness.
Who taught you this? Why do you think this is true?
also people use illness like bipolar as a copout. Have you ever experienced being with someone while they are having a manic episode? Have you ever sat with someone while they are depressed? How are they able to "cop out"?As a cert life coach the stats i recieve is that there are 3 million people with bi-polar disorder in the US. When I read the local paper or talk with all the people that claim to have it, they all live in my town.
It's become the new virus. everybodies getting it. Or maybe since there is no longer a great stigma attached to mental illness like there used to be, more people are seeking professional help and treatment. What's wrong with that?
I know i'm a newbie, but I think we've gone way off topic. How 'bout someone starting a new thread on Momentus...or one on bi-polar or mental health, etc.?
To take us back to where this seems to have started, Calflor wrote:
The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really?
And 1Broken1 agreed:
Totally, completely, absolutely agree. There's enough 'reality' to bring to God every day without having to force some.
Although this too has nothing to do with JL's letter---the title of this thread...anything about JL also brings CES's words/actions into play, so Calflor made a good point. CES has promoted Momentus. Whether people liked it or didn't like it is a Momentus-Thread discussion, imho.
If we choose to look at Momentus in light of CES promoting it, however, some questions might be.....are they still promoting it (or a version of it like Vision Quest)? Did they hear their CES people who spoke up to them saying it was not good for them or did they dismiss them? How were their people treated in regards to speaking up about this subject? Is that the way their people are treated who speak up about other subjects? Who, specifically, (G's, R's, S's, Gallaghers', or JL, since they are individually responsible to God) acted in a godly or an ungodly manner? If CES believes in it, are they promoting it in a godly manner or an ungodly manner? Are they saying one thing and doing another about it or about other subjects that pertain to their organization??
Chrispy & I were deeply involved with Momentus and the sponsorship team in Houston in the mid 90's. What started out as a good experience for both individuals and the church community eventually dissolved into chaos - in my opinion. Lots of blame to go around. But to me the people/the community got off track by focusing in two areas - away from Jesus and onto the training experience; and on the negatives in people while ignoring the positives, the gifts in peoples lives.
We had one experience with some gifted health care professionals and volunteers who wanted to get rid of a troublesome woman at their facility for a weekend - so we agreed and they drove her over with her 20 pill bottles. She was almost incoherent and any amount of lgat training on her would have been useless. So we asked her what she did - what was her gift? She shared this and we happened to have a point of contact with her gifting and we put her to work. She blossomed immediately into a coherent and vibrant person for the rest of the weekend. She became a good friend.
Our friends who sent her over could not believe it when we told them.
Will this solve all mental emotional and physical problems? No.
But I remind myself there is another way to work with people - accentuate the positives, focus on their gifts and let people contribute. Good positive work rooted in a person's gifts is a wonderful way to help a person blossom. Sorta like love, joy, peace, gentleness, and what are the rest?
It's kinda like the kids in the sandbox who had a fight but lay it aside and just get back to the joy of playing.
Jesus said something about being little children didn't he?
Now I wonder how I can turn this into a weekend training and make money off of it? (joking)
I understand what you are saying. But there is a lot of potential good in these kinds of courses. Situations, circumstances and events in life can leave us burnt out, confused, stuck..and kind of hypnotized to a general way of being that may be stagnated or just plain ugly. Courses like Momentus or Vision Quest ( a variation of Momentus) can be helpful in getting us out of the ruts and into some better understandings and perceptions about ourselves and our lives in general.
I don't see anything wrong with a group like CES promoting Momentus. But tHe thing about these kinds of intense training courses is - people must be mature enough and ready for something like this. Talking a deeper look into the reality of ourselves and the world around us can be too much to stomach for a lot of people...
...Yep, it's pretty simple. Some are not ready or willing to confront the crap that lives in them.
Got it ?
I don't think it's a matter of someone being mature enough or ready for it – just a glutton for punishment. Amazing how people get suckered into taking a seminar - - and PAYING for this abuse - - allowing egotistical blind-guides to run roughshod all over their heads.
Caribousam – you seem like an okay Christian to me – and I'm not meaning to come down on you or argue with you over how beneficial the experience was for you. But how people deal with an experience is different for everyone – and that doesn't necessarily justify the seminar…
My tendency is to look at some "self improvement" seminars as really subjecting oneself to a makeover by psychiatrist-wannabes - it's an attempt to have oneself improved under the direction of other people. I'm not saying they had a brainstorming session with the top agenda being: How can we artificially duplicate the process of change and growth that's shown in the Bible for fun and profit. They probably had good intentions but I'm more comfortable and confident with the simple things that Jesus said to do. Like the change and growth through introspection and response to His teaching [Matthew 7:1-5, 21-27]. Or in humility taking the initiative to reconcile a difference with a brother [Matthew 5:23,24; 18:15]. These are SELF-directed processes.
I don't think it's a matter of someone being mature enough or ready for it – just a glutton for punishment. Amazing how people get suckered into taking a seminar - - and PAYING for this abuse - - allowing egotistical blind-guides to run roughshod all over their heads.
Well what I am trying to say is that sometimes there are experiences or training that can help us go through a growth spurt or help us get through some obstacles that are in the way of our growth.
Vision Quest is not perfect but you are going over the top the way you are describing it. There is some truth and good in what you are saying, just as there is some truth and good in what Vision Quest has done.
Hyperbole may be good in a court of law, but not so good in truth seeking.
My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.
Good Point.
Regardless of which road we choose,
we have an actively present Savior
who is with us to the end
and is able to subdue all things to his own will.
I don't ever expect to subject myself to a Momentous style training,
but I can't deny the Savior has worked in the process for many who have gone through it.
I've also seen him work his work in the lives of those who don't go through the process.
My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.
Good words. I would only add, "see what it did to your neighbor, first", and "don't be gullible".
and "if they demand that you sign a hold harmless agreement, run like h*ll".
Well what I am trying to say is that sometimes there are experiences or training that can help us go through a growth spurt or help us get through some obstacles that are in the way of our growth.
Vision Quest is not perfect but you are going over the top the way you are describing it. There is some truth and good in what you are saying, just as there is some truth and good in what Vision Quest has done.
Hyperbole may be good in a court of law, but not so good in truth seeking.
I see what you're saying – but why does there have to be a cookie-cutter mentality about promoting growth or seeking the truth? One format or process works for everyone – or even a select few who are mature or ready. You said the experience was beneficial to you. Great. But you throw in "truth seeking" - - and spoke condescendingly – implying some people might not be ready or mature enough to handle this experience in their search for truth. The "scar tissue" from my TWI Way Corps years starts flaring up again. You don't need to defend your personal experiences here. But I will take issue with you when you imply some class, seminar, program, group, church, club, society, or dentists convention [in case there's any tooth seekers reading this] is the way to the truth reserved for the mature and spiritually ready.
Let me ask you something – do they claim these principles, processes, etc. are right out of the Bible, or in any way represent it as a good Christian/Bible based program, seminar, whatever? If they don't – fine. Then we're in a debate over the validity of your personal experience with that – and I'm not gonna argue about that. But you indicated in your first post it was Christian based:
I completed a seminar that was very similar to Momentus - Vision Quest - and I had an enlightening experience. It was also exhausting, and very difficult at times in places where I had to face some of the less noble or weaker parts of myself. But in the end, I learned a whole lot about myself and how to connect with God, and discoverd or rediscoverd some of the more important points about being a Christian man. It was for me a productive, positive, character building time...
That said, I would say that this type of training is not for everyone...those that are not ready might not have such fruitful experiences....
I've had a few Momentus grads try to sell me on their class. Know some people who took it. And you say Vision Quest is similar to Momentus. So how is Vision Quest similar – or different - than Momentus? After awhile – the sales shtick for these quasi-Christian programs sounds the same to me - - "let's make a buck off the Bible."
My sisters & I & my wife got a great deal out of it. As did my kids in the youth version. But we're not and weren't then tiptoeing the thin line of emotional instability. I'd never actively promote it to somebody. Nevertheless, I'm glad I did it and had no problem with signing the hold-harmless.
Those who had a bad experience, sorry. I hope you learn to deal with it.
Those who never did but love to snipe from the gallery, snipe on!
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
14
71
30
Popular Days
Feb 15
23
Mar 9
22
Feb 14
17
Mar 1
17
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 11 posts
WordWolf 14 posts
Ham 71 posts
caribousam 30 posts
Popular Days
Feb 15 2007
23 posts
Mar 9 2007
22 posts
Feb 14 2007
17 posts
Mar 1 2007
17 posts
Popular Posts
GrouchoMarxJr
I must say that it IS interesting to see the people who promoted "Momentus" having such difficulties themselves now... ...Maybe it's just a coincidence that the folks who were so heavily into this ps
caribousam
I am not actively promoting these particular trainings. I am only saying that I had an overall positive and frutiful
experience at Vision Quest. And that this type of training is not for everyone. Sometimes we need to get out of comfortable and/or set ways of being and doing if want want to grow. Sometimes growing will be painful. As a Christian, I seek out better ways to give, to grow, and to learn. Prayerful thought, study, and prayer often takes me to places that I know are right but might sometimes seem unusual or strange to others. I've long ago learend to confidently take to the roads that seem right, often despite the criticism of family and friends...and it has made all the difference!!
The Road Not Taken - by Robert Frost
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth; 5
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same, 10
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back. 15
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
Well Jesus did do some radical things, so it's a not so hard for me to see him using some unorthodox methods. Sending pigs into the sea, raising his voice to raise the dead and quiet a storm, and confronting the religious establishment of the time make him pretty radical.
Yes churches should teach the Bible and help people get to know Jesus. Unfortunately this is often not the case. What a lot of churches seem to be into is growing in size, collecting money, and throwing out some Biblical crumbs so that people keep coming back. The reality is - professing, devout, serious Bible believing Christians are some of the most messed up people around. At least that is true here in Massachusetts.
My advice - go to whatever church or training or fellowship that suits your fancy. Take responsibility and ownership for yourself and your actions. And trust God to help you make sense of it all.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
I don't want to sound like a jerk...but...blaming others for decsions YOU make is going to get you into trouble, especially if you are a Christian.
I pretty much agree with that CES position about those who have problems due to this training. If that is not what it is, what is it ? I'm not trying to be a jerk, but I appreciate a deep dive into things like this. It is important to know and understand the roots of all of this if possible...I would like to really understand the good and the bad in these types of training. Don't point me to a web site. Let me hear about YOUR experience...if possible...
Edited by caribousamLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
They have evidence that primitive people performed brain surgery with bone knifves too. There is some evidence that the patients lived for that matter.. nobody knows how well, or whether they still had all of their "marbles".
Somehow, the idea of letting some brute with a loud voice and a bone knife work on my brain to expose my most secret faults does not sound very appealing. No wonder they want a hold harmless paper signed. A psychologist does not need a hold harmless agreement.
People who study psychology know we are still in the dark ages of understanding, as far as human thought and behavior is concerned.
The momentus guys apparently think they know better. Yep.. go boldly where angels fear to tread..
rip some "crap" out of somebody's head.
I'd rather keep the "crap".
I'd as soon have the witchdoctor work me over with a bone knife, as trust these characters.
It is too convenient to blame the consequences of the "treatment" on the victim (patient).
It is still malpractice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Gilligan
To caribousam:
Let me relate it to this analogy:
LEAD was a good place for normal physically healthy people to learn some physical and spiritual things.
But sending a quadriplegic in a wheel chair and then tieing him into a rope and telling him to climb the rocks.....
It don't work bro.
When I took Momentus the trainers said it was for LEADERS. Then they sat there and told us we had no right to define what a LEADER was, just sign up everybody and let them make the decision. So then people just released from mental institutions and currently on psychotropic drugs were enrolled.....
It was so sad to watch the consequences.
It has to be about quality of care for your brothers and sisters and not about quantity.
And where is Jesus in all this claptrap?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
undone
AMEN......
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rich
Bi-polar and all depression patients have 2 things in common, low selfesteme and unworthyness.
also people use illness like bipolar as a copout. As a cert life coach the stats i recieve is that there are 3 million people with bi-polar disorder in the US. When I read the local paper or talk with all the people that claim to have it, they all live in my town.
It's become the new virus. everybodies getting it.
Edited by richLink to comment
Share on other sites
1broken1
"How much can you earn as a Certified Life Coach? - The earning potential you have as a Certified Life Coach with the Life Coach Institute is limited only by how much you choose to work. The average Life Coach in the U.S. today charges from $250 to $750 per month per client. (What you charge will be up to you.) Let’s say you want to earn $4000.00 per month as a coach. To earn that amount you’d need to have just ten full-time clients at an average rate of $400.00 per month, per client. If you charged a higher fee of $650.00 per client, as an example, you would need only six clients to reach your $4,000.00 monthly goal. "
Yup, RADICAL METHODS JUST LIKE JESUS WOULD DO!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
Welcome, undone, to the GreaseSpot Cafe.
Hope you stay awhile....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
And yet, only a licensed professional should decided whether a person is or is not bipolar. Only a licensed professional should attempt to treat any form of psychological or emotional disorder.
Edited by AbigailLink to comment
Share on other sites
VeganXTC
My questions to you are in bold.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
therebutforgrace
I know i'm a newbie, but I think we've gone way off topic. How 'bout someone starting a new thread on Momentus...or one on bi-polar or mental health, etc.?
To take us back to where this seems to have started, Calflor wrote:
The real "irony" here is that these people (CES) promoted a class (momentus) to confront people with "reality"...most of us face reality on a daily basis with jobs, families and real life responsibilities...and these folks want to teach us about facing reality...really?
And 1Broken1 agreed:
Totally, completely, absolutely agree. There's enough 'reality' to bring to God every day without having to force some.
Although this too has nothing to do with JL's letter---the title of this thread...anything about JL also brings CES's words/actions into play, so Calflor made a good point. CES has promoted Momentus. Whether people liked it or didn't like it is a Momentus-Thread discussion, imho.
If we choose to look at Momentus in light of CES promoting it, however, some questions might be.....are they still promoting it (or a version of it like Vision Quest)? Did they hear their CES people who spoke up to them saying it was not good for them or did they dismiss them? How were their people treated in regards to speaking up about this subject? Is that the way their people are treated who speak up about other subjects? Who, specifically, (G's, R's, S's, Gallaghers', or JL, since they are individually responsible to God) acted in a godly or an ungodly manner? If CES believes in it, are they promoting it in a godly manner or an ungodly manner? Are they saying one thing and doing another about it or about other subjects that pertain to their organization??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
All depressions cases have low self esteam and unworthyness???
I'd like to see some proof on that.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I think that is part of the concept that 95 percent of all men's ills are psychosomatic..
That does tend to fill some groups coffers who offer a more "honorable" solution to depression.
Other words, without the stigma of "conventional" (in reality the proper) treatment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
richnchrispy
This is Richard
Chrispy & I were deeply involved with Momentus and the sponsorship team in Houston in the mid 90's. What started out as a good experience for both individuals and the church community eventually dissolved into chaos - in my opinion. Lots of blame to go around. But to me the people/the community got off track by focusing in two areas - away from Jesus and onto the training experience; and on the negatives in people while ignoring the positives, the gifts in peoples lives.
We had one experience with some gifted health care professionals and volunteers who wanted to get rid of a troublesome woman at their facility for a weekend - so we agreed and they drove her over with her 20 pill bottles. She was almost incoherent and any amount of lgat training on her would have been useless. So we asked her what she did - what was her gift? She shared this and we happened to have a point of contact with her gifting and we put her to work. She blossomed immediately into a coherent and vibrant person for the rest of the weekend. She became a good friend.
Our friends who sent her over could not believe it when we told them.
Will this solve all mental emotional and physical problems? No.
But I remind myself there is another way to work with people - accentuate the positives, focus on their gifts and let people contribute. Good positive work rooted in a person's gifts is a wonderful way to help a person blossom. Sorta like love, joy, peace, gentleness, and what are the rest?
It's kinda like the kids in the sandbox who had a fight but lay it aside and just get back to the joy of playing.
Jesus said something about being little children didn't he?
Now I wonder how I can turn this into a weekend training and make money off of it? (joking)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I don't think it's a matter of someone being mature enough or ready for it – just a glutton for punishment. Amazing how people get suckered into taking a seminar - - and PAYING for this abuse - - allowing egotistical blind-guides to run roughshod all over their heads.
Caribousam – you seem like an okay Christian to me – and I'm not meaning to come down on you or argue with you over how beneficial the experience was for you. But how people deal with an experience is different for everyone – and that doesn't necessarily justify the seminar…
My tendency is to look at some "self improvement" seminars as really subjecting oneself to a makeover by psychiatrist-wannabes - it's an attempt to have oneself improved under the direction of other people. I'm not saying they had a brainstorming session with the top agenda being: How can we artificially duplicate the process of change and growth that's shown in the Bible for fun and profit. They probably had good intentions but I'm more comfortable and confident with the simple things that Jesus said to do. Like the change and growth through introspection and response to His teaching [Matthew 7:1-5, 21-27]. Or in humility taking the initiative to reconcile a difference with a brother [Matthew 5:23,24; 18:15]. These are SELF-directed processes.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Estimated Prophet
Good Point.
Regardless of which road we choose,
we have an actively present Savior
who is with us to the end
and is able to subdue all things to his own will.
I don't ever expect to subject myself to a Momentous style training,
but I can't deny the Savior has worked in the process for many who have gone through it.
I've also seen him work his work in the lives of those who don't go through the process.
I just rejoice when I see him working.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
caribousam
Yes, you got it !! Thank you !!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Good words. I would only add, "see what it did to your neighbor, first", and "don't be gullible".
and "if they demand that you sign a hold harmless agreement, run like h*ll".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Abigail
ROFLMAO - Amen Mr. Hammeroni, Amen!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I see what you're saying – but why does there have to be a cookie-cutter mentality about promoting growth or seeking the truth? One format or process works for everyone – or even a select few who are mature or ready. You said the experience was beneficial to you. Great. But you throw in "truth seeking" - - and spoke condescendingly – implying some people might not be ready or mature enough to handle this experience in their search for truth. The "scar tissue" from my TWI Way Corps years starts flaring up again. You don't need to defend your personal experiences here. But I will take issue with you when you imply some class, seminar, program, group, church, club, society, or dentists convention [in case there's any tooth seekers reading this] is the way to the truth reserved for the mature and spiritually ready.
Let me ask you something – do they claim these principles, processes, etc. are right out of the Bible, or in any way represent it as a good Christian/Bible based program, seminar, whatever? If they don't – fine. Then we're in a debate over the validity of your personal experience with that – and I'm not gonna argue about that. But you indicated in your first post it was Christian based:
I've had a few Momentus grads try to sell me on their class. Know some people who took it. And you say Vision Quest is similar to Momentus. So how is Vision Quest similar – or different - than Momentus? After awhile – the sales shtick for these quasi-Christian programs sounds the same to me - - "let's make a buck off the Bible."
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
My sisters & I & my wife got a great deal out of it. As did my kids in the youth version. But we're not and weren't then tiptoeing the thin line of emotional instability. I'd never actively promote it to somebody. Nevertheless, I'm glad I did it and had no problem with signing the hold-harmless.
Those who had a bad experience, sorry. I hope you learn to deal with it.
Those who never did but love to snipe from the gallery, snipe on!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
True, when the shoe fits on the other foot, hyperbole, or exageration, from those who offer these "seminars".
"spiritually grow twenty years in three.."
"break through your inner turmoil and barriers in three short days.."
Most people have barriers, and for GOOD REASON.
Generally speaking, a PSYCHIATRIST, and a good one at that, can't "fix" you in two or three days..
or a psychologist.. or a medical doctor. there are no magic pills.
Some people may get a good feeling out of it.. there is always the placebo effect.
I think fast results are like fast weight loss.. it's not good, and the problem usually comes back.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.