CES and Momentous

[WordWolf]

As a minister for Christ I could never rightly recommend a program that turned out to be harmful to anyone. So my beef would be that it can't be recommended by a true minister of the true God, TYVM. Now you think about that while you continue all your finger pointing.

I recommended to my wife that she get her driver's license. Despite the fact that daily there are thousands of deaths

due to automobile accidents! I guess I'm not true minister of God. Putting my wife in such danger!! What kind of slug

am I ?!!

Oh ductape - you're ministry is such a soft and loving one, floating on cotton clouds in a land of peace, good will,

and safety. Your followers must be getting along well in this world free of wars, violence, corruption, and sin.

[Will someone explain the difference between recommending a program, where the contents and

program are entirely optional-

and things like driving and leaving one's home, which are unavoidable but risks in them can be

minimized?

Apparently, he's the kind of slug that can't tell the difference between the two,

or is willing to try to muddy the waters in a sad attempt to blow smoke and obscure the gaping deficiences

in the program he's trying so ardently to defend.

"That the program be not blamed! Confuse the issues! Blur the distinctions!"]

[socks]

I used to wonder how and why Momentus got hooked up with ex-Wayfers and the Momentus classes were sold to ex-Wayfers.The guys who started M'us aren't ex-Wayfers and aren't members of any of the ex-Wayfer churches, societies groups or ministries.

CES played a part in that. From the CES peop's standpoint, I think there could be two reasons it was brought in:

One - the founders of CES feeling that after they and many others left the Way around 1986-'89, there was a lot of finger pointing and "victim" mentality. People feeling like they'd been taken advantage of, deceived at various stages of their involvement.

Enter Momentus, offered from a passive/aggressive point of use - let Momentus do the work, get people "honest" about who they are and what had happened. Let it show people that they were responsible for their own state. Indeed, a conclusion that would basically be "you'd have had problems anywhere because the problem isn't other people it's how you handle life."

Two - the founders of CES, Graeser particularly and Lynn and Schoenheit to lesser degrees, were inclined towards that kind of poking and probing, if not maliciously (God forbid, I might get sued!) than from a somewhat over-stated feeling of superiority.

Graeser's taking - was it Psychology classes? After a semester or two, any bets on how much of that got into his CES messages? The man has a wife that's having dreams of arachnids populating people's bodily orifices. Hmmm. There's always some new breeze blowing some new tidbit into those guys field of vision it seems. More knowledge, more tips, more useful "systems". Insects.

Doesn't seem to do much good, does it?

Course then I'm reminded of Ozzy Osbourne, who was asked at one time about how @#$%! up he seemed to be all the time, and he responded, well, I'm doing pretty good today. "Sometimes it's really weird, y'know?"

So in the weird world of Ozzie Osborne there's good days and bad days, but I wouldn't want to be the Ozzster on a good day. Y'know?

Momentus has been beat around the bush so many times round here it's a pretty tired topic, IMO. Still, it's a dog that seems to always find a spot.

Arf arf.

Edited March 5, 2007 by socks

[Ham]

I dunno. It seems like a scene out of Hotel California. The beast is properly dispatched, but it's only playing dead..

Or like a perpeptual Groundhog Day, you get up every morning, and there it is again..

been beaten, stabbed, run over by a truck.. and every morning it comes back..

Careful there Socks, I think I saw it blink..

Edited March 5, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[socks]

Yah, it's wiggling. Jiggling. Stretching.

I'm attending a study fellowship where we're reading the gospel of John every week. Talk about a 'Momentous' book.

Jesus did take some hits, to put it mildly. By comparison I've got it pretty easy. Some don't.

Course if I were to compare the persecution Jesus experienced with criticism of a training class like Momentous - well, I'm not sure I can.

Jesus brought 'deliverance' to people, 'did' miracles. He didn't train blind people to see. He said see, they saw. The deliverance didn't come during a pillow fight, or upon successful completion of a curriculum.

There's a difference - isn't there? I see a difference. I'm sure there's a difference there. Pillow fights are fun. Curriculums can be wonderful. Christian pillow fights and training curriculums - they're just the best.

And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.

Yknow - ya want a drink o' water, ya gotta go to the well.

(enrollments now being taken in the next room - have two forms of identification and be sure to read the entire agreement - single file please!)

Edited March 6, 2007 by socks

[undone]

[b]Quote Caribousam

"If anyone here besides myself in GS Land has actual experience in a training - Momentus, Vision Quest, or Breakthrough - I would like to hear about it. It's good to have hard data about experiences in the training. Sometimes the web and blogsphere blabber isn't a great representative of reality."

Hey Caribousam,

Just came back from a Discovery Seminar. It was awesome. Did Breakthrough last year and I think I liked the Discovery better although both were great. My family went together and it has made a big difference in our relationship to each other. We are more open and willing to have the hard conversations that are sometimes needed, especial in a family. In both Discovery and Breakthrough there were people from all walks of life and all levels of faith, I saw one maybe two people who really didn't like it or had an adverse experience. Most of the participance loved it. Also the experience and bonds that you make with the other participants is very rewarding. It just goes to reinforce that we are all in the same boat (In Need of a Savior). My Discovery was 26 participance, Breakthrough was 29. Don't get me wrong there was some uncomfortable times during the experience and you felt like maybe you didn't want to be there.

But transformation isn't always pleasant, ask the butterfly.

God Bless,

Undone

Edited March 8, 2007 by undone

[Ham]

In fifty years of life, I have never, ever ever seen a butterfly beat a pillow..

I think it is a myth, that change has to be uncomfortable. "some change implies lack of comfort" is not equivalent to "I suffered discomfort, therefore I experienced change".

[dmiller]

In fifty years of life, I have never, ever ever seen a butterfly beat a pillow..

I think it is a myth, that change has to be uncomfortable. "some change implies lack of comfort" is not equivalent to "I suffered discomfort, therefore I experienced change".

Not that I am condoning the experience ---

but butterflies DO beat the cocoon!!

[socks]

That'd be one bad butterfly, for sure.

Figure, butterflies make the change they make from worm to winged wonder in a natural progression. What's a butterfly know from cocoons? Nothing. It's the outside observer that perceives the change. Breaking out of the cocoon is a one time event, and a natural progression of growth and change, not an artificial Event forced upon it.

The stuff of growth is time and time flies for everyone be it a little or a lot. The cost of a class includes dough-ski, dinero, oney-may, long green and usually the kind that swiffs, not clinks. In fact there's a ratio of swiff to class that calculates out to Value. What good's a cheap class? Can't be good - if it was it would cost more, right? More cost, more good. It's the American Way. We've got expenses, this stuff doesn't happen by magic y'know.

[undone]

Quote: Mr. Hammeroni

I think it is a myth, that change has to be uncomfortable. "some change implies lack of comfort" is not equivalent to "I suffered discomfort, therefore I experienced change."

Quote: Undone

But transformation isn't always pleasant, ask the butterfly.

Sorry if you thought I meant it was always uncomfortable. But I hope you can agree that sometimes

the things we learn a lot from in our lives have not always been comfortable.

[Ham]

I dunno.. I think there is a distinction between concentrated effort and grunting one's way to "success".

Honestly, any screaming, or beating the pillow I've done hasn't done me any good in life.. didn't make me feel any better either. Didn't provide solutions.. at least I didn't pay somebody cashola for THAT particular lesson.

Just seems to me, if you find your own path, the rest is easy. Like the butterfly. Someone may SAY that it is hard, that it's experience isn't enjoyable, but how do you know? Maybe he's having the time of his life.

Sheesh.. butterflies don't need a lamaze partner or something, "breath, breath, breath, now pushhhhhhhh..."

In a lot of ways, I think the momentus experience is like trying to put old wine in new wine skins. The old wine might be "awesome", but maybe a person oughta try something "new"..

Edited March 9, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

No, I didn't get it "backwards"

I really meant- old wine, new skins.

[undone]

Dear Hammeroni,

Sorry your experience with Momentous wasn't a good one. I guess it goes with the saying that you can

only please some of the people some of the time, half of the people half of the time, but not all of the people

all of the time (or something like that). What is awesome about that is that we are all uniquely different

and experience life in different ways. How boring would it be if we were all the same. The one common

denominator in our lives that can bind us together is the Christ in us, how cool is that?

Blessings..........

[Ham]

No, I haven't taken it.. and I won't. I've seen what it does to other people.

Lynn, Graeser, et. al make the perfect momentus "poster child". The perfect "witnesses" to the merits of momentus.

My opinion, the experience took an already pompus, arrogant know-it-all personality and removed the rest of the restraints.

"anybody who's anybody" in the organization has taken this seminar.

It's the "secret handshake".. the "mark of maturity"..

Read the threads here.. look at what the inner core of CES has done and is doing. They are ALL momentus grads. No thanks, not for me.

No thanks-

I'll save time and money and beat my own pillow, on my own terms..

Honestly, I'm pompous, egotistical enough as it is. I don't REALLY need any more "help"

:)

Edited March 9, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

I've seen what the "commercial" version of this kind of thing does to people..

my boss came back from one of these things a few years ago, the poor b*s*ard thought he was God..

[Ham]

Literally. I said, "you're not giving yourself just a LITTLE too much credit here, are you?"

As far as Lynn/Graeser/Schoenheit and company are concerned- I think the little seminar was one of the important stepping stones along The Way that helped remove the final barriers or limitations between them and their delusions of Moghood..

[undone]

Wow Hammeroni,

Literally. I said, "you're not giving yourself just a LITTLE too much credit here, are you?" (Hammeroni quote)

Did I give myself too much credit? for what? I just wonder why it bothers you so much that not everyone had

a bad experience with Momentous/Breakthrough/Vision Quest. Maybe you should consult your pillow on that

one. Just a thought.

[Ham]

"Oooooooh, Mighty Pillow, guide me through the good times, the bad times,.. yea, though I pass through the valley of orthopedic discomfort, thou art with me..."

[vickles]

Love it Mr. Ham!!!! Please keep the ham rolling....hey wait a minute what happened to psalmie...we could sure use her here that is for sure.

The whole momentus thing was the most downgrading thing there is. Why would someone want to go through it in the first place? If there is such thing as a devil (which I think there may be) then this would have to be put in to the file of devilish.

[Ham]

Trouble is, once it's rolling, it's hard to stop..

let's see, where'd I leave off.. ah.

".. to guide and to comfort me. Lo, though I recline in satin, cotton, or cheap polyester, Thou wilt bring comfort and plump softness to my head, all the days of my life..."

[WordWolf]

Wow Hammeroni,

Literally. I said, "you're not giving yourself just a LITTLE too much credit here, are you?" (Hammeroni quote)

Did I give myself too much credit? for what? I just wonder why it bothers you so much that not everyone had

a bad experience with Momentous/Breakthrough/Vision Quest. Maybe you should consult your pillow on that

one. Just a thought.

[ A) He was talking about HIS BOSS. READ the posts again. He was NOT addressing YOU-

unless you're actually his boss at work, who's now posting here.

B) Why does it bother you so LITTLE that some people got railroaded into a program that did severe

damage to them? Is it because you buy the "only the strong benefit from this class-

and only the weak suffer damage from it. REAL Christians benefit from this program" stuff?

Maybe you should consult with your conscience as to whether you should be feeling something about

the victims-even if you're NOT feeling anything other than APATHY for them. Just a thought.]

[caribousam]

Dear Hammeroni,

Sorry your experience with Momentous wasn't a good one. I guess it goes with the saying that you can

only please some of the people some of the time, half of the people half of the time, but not all of the people

all of the time (or something like that). What is awesome about that is that we are all uniquely different

and experience life in different ways. How boring would it be if we were all the same. The one common

denominator in our lives that can bind us together is the Christ in us, how cool is that?

Blessings..........

hey undone,

You make excellent points here. It's strange how some are not happy that some

had positive experiences in Momentus/Vision Quest. But I guess that any training

that has potential large positive impact on folks will naturally have its share of

negative reviews.

[caribousam]

Love it Mr. Ham!!!! Please keep the ham rolling....hey wait a minute what happened to psalmie...we could sure use her here that is for sure.

The whole momentus thing was the most downgrading thing there is. Why would someone want to go through it in the first place? If there is such thing as a devil (which I think there may be) then this would have to be put in to the file of devilish.

Vickles, did you actually attend the training ? If you did, I would like to hear your first hand experience, if you are willing....

[WordWolf]

It's strange how some are not happy that some

had positive experiences in Momentus/Vision Quest.

[i wonder if this is an INTENTIONAL error-

as in "I'm looking for excuses to dismiss criticism, so I shall pretend that critics have ever objected

to someone having even a single positive experience with Momentus when they have expressed

no such thing";

or a psychological BLIND-SPOT-

as in "I can't see why anyone would care so much about Momentus and still not like

Momentus- they must object to people benefitting from it if they don't like Momentus..."

I can't tell from here.

Either way, it's ERROR- but one is accidental and one is intentional.]

But I guess that any training

that has potential large positive impact on folks will naturally have its share of

negative reviews.

[Any training is bound to have someone who doesn't like it.

That's a non-issue, and pretending it is not is just another smokescreen-

whether intentional or accidental.

There's a big difference between "I don't like the way they do this"

and

"people were being pressured to enter, those running it refused to explain what to

expect, and some of those who took it suffered long-term psychological damage,

and a LOT of those who didn't demonstrated negative personality traits".

Seems a LOT of the people who graduated this "program" and didn't just collapse

decide this thing is right next to the hand of God,

and all criticism is bogus, and all objections must be shouted down,

and even questioning it is forbidden.

Oh, heck, who's surprised? We've seen it demonstrated right on this thread.

People have popped in out of nowhere to attack any dissent,

and NOT with reasoned discussion, most of them....]

[Ham]

or a psychological BLIND-SPOT-

as in "I can't see why anyone would care so much about Momentus and still not like

Momentus- they must object to people benefitting from it if they don't like Momentus..."

That one gets my vote.

Not to be crass, or mean or anything..

but it reminds me of some kids I knew in my youth who huffed a little too much glue- they just weren't all there..

[vickles]

That one gets my vote.

Not to be crass, or mean or anything..

but it reminds me of some kids I knew in my youth who huffed a little too much glue- they just weren't all there..

LOL or gas...hehe

No I didn't experience myself but I know people that did. There are some serious problems with people that had some serious mental problems after experiencing what they did or took years to get back to what they had.

I don't understand why anyone would want to go somewhere and get critqued in that way. It just doesn't make sense. Having people tell me what I need to work on in the manner that its done seems to put someone down rather to build them up. It seems that the ones that could come out unscathed didn't have much of a mind nor stamina in the first place.