Hey, is that one of those gosh-awful-long-wordy-definitions by VPW…let me see if I remember how it went – I know I’m gonna goof it up – especially since I used to stick a silly phrase in there [noted in boldface inside brackets]: “God’s Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind [which is now your mind] and becomes manifested in the sense realm as you act.”
Hey, is that one of those gosh-awful-long-wordy-definitions by VPW…let me see if I remember how it went – I know I’m gonna goof it up – especially since I used to stick a silly phrase in there [noted in boldface inside brackets]: “God’s Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind [which is now your mind] and becomes manifested in the sense realm as you act.”
I wonder if these wills 'God's and man's' are anything like being led by the spirit. Letting go of our will to do his will.
No matter how the info gets to us. Seems that there had to be a definite one way of receiving this will of God.
LAE -- I'm not sure I remember the great principle either.
(At least docvic's version of it ---
and I've never heard that mentioned elsewhere).
The only thing that comes to mind here (for me at least),
is that Jesus certainly "hid the Word in His heart",
yet He was still seeking guidance from His Father,
as the occassion demanded.
That's just an imo, and backed up by nothing other than speculation.
Perhaps others who know more will join in,
and we can all learn something. :)
Yes, this is a good example of the practical side. He had spirit unconditionaly, but did have to renew his mind as well, thats why we can understand the walk, his example
Tbone= Im sure that is it..
I know that Joyce Meyer', Creflo and others teach this principle, but without a term atached to it..
Roy,GBU2:) There is the physical organ and then the place in the brain where we make decisions and we reference to that we kept hidden in out heart..
I've never given this much thought after leaving TWI – but I have a tendency now to avoid strict definitions of how God works in our minds. I'm very technical minded and used to love TWI's formulas and explanations of how spiritual things work…I'm not really going anywhere with this…just thinking out loud…I lean towards a more unified view of the spiritual and physical realm – not so much that there's a huge chasm separating the two – but perhaps they're of the same "stuff" but having distinct properties - or instead of saying there's two categories [spiritual and physical] - what if it's all one thing? And the stuff that isn't perceived by my five senses - is also physical [having specific properties and occupying definite dimensions] - it's just not registering on my limited sensors.
…Instead of "being spiritual" at certain times in certain situations – like there's a switch to turn on and off – I think everything we do has something "spiritual" about it – I'm just thinking of passages that tell us to do whatever we do to the Glory of God, work heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men, and to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
…Maybe hiding the Word in my heart isn't so much about opening a window in my understanding so I can peak into a hidden realm – maybe it's taking off the blinders to become aware of how I am surrounded by…immersed in…a part of God's creation…Maybe the spiritual life is a whole lot simpler than we think…Maybe realizing more and more how everything we think, say and do really does matter spiritually – puts us more in touch with reality.
I've never given this much thought after leaving TWI – but I have a tendency now to avoid strict definitions of how God works in our minds. I'm very technical minded and used to love TWI's formulas and explanations of how spiritual things work…I'm not really going anywhere with this…just thinking out loud…I lean towards a more unified view of the spiritual and physical realm – not so much that there's a huge chasm separating the two – but perhaps they're of the same "stuff" but having distinct properties - or instead of saying there's two categories [spiritual and physical] - what if it's all one thing? And the stuff that isn't perceived by my five senses - is also physical [having specific properties and occupying definite dimensions] - it's just not registering on my limited sensors.
…Instead of "being spiritual" at certain times in certain situations – like there's a switch to turn on and off – I think everything we do has something "spiritual" about it – I'm just thinking of passages that tell us to do whatever we do to the Glory of God, work heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men, and to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
…Maybe hiding the Word in my heart isn't so much about opening a window in my understanding so I can peak into a hidden realm – maybe it's taking off the blinders to become aware of how I am surrounded by…immersed in…a part of God's creation…Maybe the spiritual life is a whole lot simpler than we think…Maybe realizing more and more how everything we think, say and do really does matter spiritually – puts us more in touch with reality.
>>>>>>…Instead of "being spiritual" at certain times in certain situations – like there's a switch to turn on and off – I think everything we do has something "spiritual" about it – I'm just thinking of passages that tell us to do whatever we do to the Glory of God, work heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men, and to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength
Tb- Thanks for your insights- It simplifies it pretty much. Pretty much how I wake up and go to sleep each day..
Anyone can memorize a book, whether its a bible, a play, a poem.
The Word without the Holy Spirit is useless. It is a book of prophecy from man's separation from God to his restoration to God, as we read, the Holy Spirit unveils it to us. Without the Holy Spirit, its foolishness to men. As men without spirit often say about the bible, "has God said?..." Its nonsense to them.
In the OT, the HS was in the world, but did not dwell in the heart of man. When Christ arose, he sent the comforter. The HS's work became to dwell in the hearts of men and to reveal Christ and God and their love and grace to them.
Men in the OT prophesised of what was to come but could not understand it. They studied their own prophecies intently.
With the HS in us, we can now understand, we can now see the whole picture and the future is revealed (Daniel, Revelation).
One thing I recently noted is how we are "sealed" with the spirit. In the same way the blood over the doorway sealed Israel from the angel of death, in the same way the 144,000 will be sealed, in the same way Noah was sealed in the ark, etc.
We are told now, that the force, or power - the HS - is what is now keeping mankind's evil in check.
We are told at some point it will leave the world, its specific purpose for this age fulfilled. When it leaves, since it indwells in us, we will go with it.
Once it is gone, mankind's evil will run rampant - unchecked, there will be nothing to hold it back. God's love dwelling in this world in human hearts will be gone. I shudder to imagine a world like that. Thus, the name for that age - the Tribulation.
Its shameful how TWI never taught its people basic truths from the Word. The HS reveals God to you as he opens your eyes in the Word and in other ways. Not your retemories and VP's definitions.
The so-called Great Principle was based on Wierwille's doctrine that God could not speak to us directly, I think that Wierwille said something like "God can only speak to what he is, i.e, spirit", related to his assetion that God can only give what he is.
I don't think that either can be supported by the bible.
Right Oakspear- I remember that too. So that relates to the Gift and the Giver. So from this, I assume that he teaches our Spirit which teaches our mind? But we are the driver's, only when we are meek and ready, he then can teach us.
Yes, I agree, I need scripture, to me it sounds wayish,altho, I have utilized these mechanics for so long, it is second nature..I only second guess my own abilities, but I never doubt love.
That whole definition of VPW never really did anything for me. The idea that God would be limited to whom He could be speak seemed absurd at the time that I was taught it and we all know now that it is completely ridiculous. So... for me to understand the way that holy spirit works in me in realation to my hiding the Word in my heart I simplified things. I study the Word, I remember all that I can of it (not in retemories or in memorizing, but learning and trying to understand). As my life progresses and events occure the holy spirit brings certain verses or sections to the forefront of my thoughts and enlightens them or points out relevent information contained in them in relation to how they are relevent to my present state of mind, circumstances and events. Somethimes the sections have nothing to do with my life but something happening around me may trigger a personal understanding of an event or orientalism found in the Bible. I believe that this is the holy spirit working in me to help bring understanding of the Word. I hope that that makes sense. Perhaps it is too simple, but it works for me.
Sunesis- Great points! Wonderful how you put that information together so simply. You have caused me to rethink and critique some things. Thanks.
So sorry to have jumped into your thread like that. I'll sit back and finish my coffee now. Please continue.
The so-called Great Principle was based on Wierwille's doctrine that God could not speak to us directly, I think that Wierwille said something like "God can only speak to what he is, i.e, spirit", related to his assetion that God can only give what he is...
Yeah, Oak - I guess he ignored the part in Genesis 3 – after Adam and Eve sinned – they both HEARD God walking in the Garden, hid from Him and then even had a CONVERSATIONwith Him about what just happened.
Eyesopen, feel free to jump into as many threads as you want, that's what we're here for! We discuss. We may not all agree, but its interesting to read differing opinions. Thanks for the kind words!
If God can only speak to spirit then why was your spirit so much more special? It could speak to you and to God and hear from both. It also brings up the interesting dynamic of SIT as perfect prayer, where God tells his spirit in you to tell you what to tell him, all the while you have no idea what you are saying.
I believe there are plenty of places in the Bible where God speaks or communicates with "unbelievers."
Eyes...
So... for me to understand the way that holy spirit works in me in realation to my hiding the Word in my heart I simplified things. I study the Word, I remember all that I can of it (not in retemories or in memorizing, but learning and trying to understand). As my life progresses and events occure the holy spirit brings certain verses or sections to the forefront of my thoughts and enlightens them or points out relevent information contained in them in relation to how they are relevent to my present state of mind, circumstances and events. Somethimes the sections have nothing to do with my life but something happening around me may trigger a personal understanding of an event or orientalism found in the Bible. I believe that this is the holy spirit working in me to help bring understanding of the Word. I hope that that makes sense. Perhaps it is too simple, but it works for me.
I don't mean to offend, but this works the same for me with many other topics. For example, something scientific that I don't understand but think about from time to time. One day something may happen and it helps me understand what I was thinking about. It just seems to be how the brain works.
Perhaps the spirit is a little more integrated in your being and not something "seperate" as Wierwille's definition seems to imply. He used to say "God's hands behind your hands, God's behind behind your behind..." or something like that. Martindale used to describe it as a well tailored shirt. Why behind? Why on you like a shirt? Why sperate from you? What does it mean for the spirit to be IN you? Is it something that you contain or something that is as much you as you?
The so-called Great Principle was based on Wierwille's doctrine that God could not speak to us directly, I think that Wierwille said something like "God can only speak to what he is, i.e, spirit", related to his assetion that God can only give what he is.
I don't think that either can be supported by the bible.
I think it was Raf who I first saw carry the logic out on paper so that it was obvious what nagged one about
that doctrine.
By "that doctrine", I meant the one where "God can only speak to that which He is".
The idea is that God, who is Spirit (and even vpw said, at other times "but He is other things too"),
is unable to communicate directly with our minds, because He is Spirit, and Spirit can't
communicate directly with flesh (and therefore, mind).
So then God implanted spirit within us to overcome that impossibility.
So God's Spirit interfaces directly with our spirit.
Ok, no problems there. We have easier analogies now that we have the internet and related technologies,
so I can follow all that easily.
The NEXT step, however, is the problem.
OUR spirit then communicates with our mind.
HEY!
You just said spirit and mind CAN'T COMMUNICATE!
That's the whole idea behind the doctrine!
So God's Great Big Spirit can't communicate with my mind (it's impossible),
but my tiny-by-comparison spirit can do it easily anytime I want?
Doesn't wash.
=============
As to who and what God Almighty can communicate with, I think most of us monotheists here agree that
God Almighty (being Almighty and all) can communicate with who or whatever He wants, whenever He
wants.
He's effectively got infinite variety in doing so.
Download information directly into one's cerebral cortex? Why not? No verse says He cannot,
no verse says He WOULD not.
Burning bush? Disembodied voice? He's been there, done that, and got the t-shirts.
I might say God MORE EFFICIENTLY communicates by interfacing Spirit-to-spirit. I could see logic in
that and get behind it.
=========
I think my problems with The Great Principle are not insurmountable, but would need to be
addressed.
First of all, this name. "The Great Principle"?
If there is any one "Great Principle", I would say JESUS CHRIST gave it.
"You shall love the Lord your God with everything you've got."
The Second Greatest Principle, then, I would say JESUS CHRIST gave as well.
"You shall love your neighbor like your own self."
(From the context, this can be rephrased as the Golden Rule-
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"-
and the Silver Rule-
"What you don't want others to do to you, don't do to them.")
Compared to mLaSJC, any principle given by any man is a distant runner-up.
So, I don't think this so-called "Great Principle" is that great.
I think it's pretty good.
So, let's see. How would I fix the Pretty Good Principle?
"God is Spirit."
I'm with you there.
The idea behind it says God can only communicate with that which He is.
No, with a little fine-tuning, we see God can communicate MORE EFFICIENTLY with spirit.
"God, who is Spirit"
I'm with you there.
"Teaches His creation in you"
Now I've got a problem again. This phrasing makes it sound as if the spirit in me is
SENTIENT, as in "I can think, and my spirit can think, independently of each other."
I can't get behind that one.
I can accept God communicating with His creation in me, and that operating as a
sort of "translator" (like a modem) to the rest of me.
I can accept that "my" spirit has priorities hard-wired into it. Programming, so to
speak. It can do anything it was programmed to do.
(It has its own drivers, to use computer techspeak a bit more.)
I don't think He TEACHES so much as COMMUNICATES, and the process is what
teaches. The teaching is not confined to the step it's named in, but rather at the
step where it reaches my thinking. And the teaching is not "my spirit to my mind",
but "God who is Spirit" teaching my mind.
Is there a step in-between where "my" spirit is involved?
Yes,
but that's besides the point, and is incidental to the teaching.
Look,
when I post here, I don't grab a pen and write on your screen.
I type into my computer.
My computer, which is technology,
communicates my message to my ISP,
and my ISP communicates to the GSC server,
and that server communicates to your ISP,
and thence to your computer.
Neither your ISP nor mine is said to "write a post" or "read a post" here.
They are part of the process, but incidental to the goals of posting and reading.
So, Pretty-Good Principle.
Nonsense? I would not say so. (Others may disagree.)
Needs improvement? Definitely. (A few will swear it does not.)
"God, who is Spirit, communicates with His creation in you, which is now your spirit,
and then proceeds to instruct your mind."
That's how I'd rephrase that.
I find the rest of it a little idiosyncratic, but serviceable.
"Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act."
Maybe something like
"As you take action, then His Will is done. Or not, depending on your chosen action."
I prefer to use terminology closer to what Jesus used
("Thy Will be done, as in Heaven, so on Earth")
instead of more esoteric twi-speak
("manifested in the senses realm").
I also allowed for the possibility that God can tell you His will, and you can just
blow it off and not carry it out. It seems self-evident to me that this need not be
documented. Let me know if you need it broken down, though.
There's examples in the Bible, and in the modern world.
WordWolf and Raf - great analysis of the Great Principle. Thanks!
Then there's the passage of Balaam having a conversation with his donkey. It says the Lord opened the donkey's mouth in verse 28. I certainly can't explain how God did that – and I don't think it will fit into the Great Principle formula either.
Numbers 22: 24-31 NIV
24 Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between two vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it. So he beat her again.
26 Then the angel of the LORD moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. 28 Thenthe LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
29 Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."
30 The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?"
"No," he said.
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell face down.
…Thinking about one of VPW's studies in the Blue Book - Are You Limiting God? …My answer to his "question" would be – you definitely have a limited concept of God if you think you can reduce Him to manageable proportions by squeezing Him into PFAL's rules and formulas.
Until people started discussing it, I had completely forgotten what the "great principle" was.
Not that I care either...but I'm glad that my TWI experience is fading away enough that I am starting to forget some of their flaked-out beliefs. And that's a good thing.
Wow, you all..so much info here. I cannot reply to everyone,but I have a better understanding.
I guess to start off, freewill still lies in between the brain and Spirit. Altho, the brain being the sole source for making decisions, it is the still small voice that we have to help us, because it is still and the way we can get guidance outside the brain, and God knew we were fools from birth and we needed this...just thinking out loud..
Now if Donkey's start talking to me, I will be running.
Marko- little by little, I have been dissecting cetain aspects of twi's teaching to discern truth and error, its a natural process.
folks, please add more..:) this has been so refreshing.
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dmiller
LAE -- I'm not sure I remember the great principle either.
(At least docvic's version of it ---
and I've never heard that mentioned elsewhere).
The only thing that comes to mind here (for me at least),
is that Jesus certainly "hid the Word in His heart",
yet He was still seeking guidance from His Father,
as the occassion demanded.
That's just an imo, and backed up by nothing other than speculation.
Perhaps others who know more will join in,
and we can all learn something. :)
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T-Bone
Hey, is that one of those gosh-awful-long-wordy-definitions by VPW…let me see if I remember how it went – I know I’m gonna goof it up – especially since I used to stick a silly phrase in there [noted in boldface inside brackets]: “God’s Spirit teaches His creation in you which is now your spirit, and your spirit teaches your mind [which is now your mind] and becomes manifested in the sense realm as you act.”
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year2027
God first
Beloved likeaneagle
God loves us all my dear friend
no bible verses come to my mind but what does is more questions
which heart?
some say our heart it what beats and gives us life while VPW said there is a heart of the brain
but if there a heart of the brain there must be a heart of the lung, and so on
I think but can not give any verses right now
the heart we are taking about
is our desires, our hopes, our beliefs, our loves, our hates,
the part that makes us one of a kind our inner being our desired conciousness
our fleshly image -- the part others see - the part other do not see but know its there because of how we live our lives
the part the shines into the mirrow so we can see what we look like
this part is between our body and the mirrow -- its the light bounching off our body
within this image I believe our spiritual image grows until it puts on a new body
but this is me and this is hard for me to put in the right words
so to me the heart we are talking about is the heart of our fleshly image
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
I wonder if these wills 'God's and man's' are anything like being led by the spirit. Letting go of our will to do his will.
No matter how the info gets to us. Seems that there had to be a definite one way of receiving this will of God.
I don't think so.
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likeaneagle
Yes, this is a good example of the practical side. He had spirit unconditionaly, but did have to renew his mind as well, thats why we can understand the walk, his example
Tbone= Im sure that is it..
I know that Joyce Meyer', Creflo and others teach this principle, but without a term atached to it..
Roy,GBU2:) There is the physical organ and then the place in the brain where we make decisions and we reference to that we kept hidden in out heart..
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T-Bone
I've never given this much thought after leaving TWI – but I have a tendency now to avoid strict definitions of how God works in our minds. I'm very technical minded and used to love TWI's formulas and explanations of how spiritual things work…I'm not really going anywhere with this…just thinking out loud…I lean towards a more unified view of the spiritual and physical realm – not so much that there's a huge chasm separating the two – but perhaps they're of the same "stuff" but having distinct properties - or instead of saying there's two categories [spiritual and physical] - what if it's all one thing? And the stuff that isn't perceived by my five senses - is also physical [having specific properties and occupying definite dimensions] - it's just not registering on my limited sensors.
…Instead of "being spiritual" at certain times in certain situations – like there's a switch to turn on and off – I think everything we do has something "spiritual" about it – I'm just thinking of passages that tell us to do whatever we do to the Glory of God, work heartily as unto the Lord and not unto men, and to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.
…Maybe hiding the Word in my heart isn't so much about opening a window in my understanding so I can peak into a hidden realm – maybe it's taking off the blinders to become aware of how I am surrounded by…immersed in…a part of God's creation…Maybe the spiritual life is a whole lot simpler than we think…Maybe realizing more and more how everything we think, say and do really does matter spiritually – puts us more in touch with reality.
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likeaneagle
Tb- Thanks for your insights- It simplifies it pretty much. Pretty much how I wake up and go to sleep each day..
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Sunesis
Anyone can memorize a book, whether its a bible, a play, a poem.
The Word without the Holy Spirit is useless. It is a book of prophecy from man's separation from God to his restoration to God, as we read, the Holy Spirit unveils it to us. Without the Holy Spirit, its foolishness to men. As men without spirit often say about the bible, "has God said?..." Its nonsense to them.
In the OT, the HS was in the world, but did not dwell in the heart of man. When Christ arose, he sent the comforter. The HS's work became to dwell in the hearts of men and to reveal Christ and God and their love and grace to them.
Men in the OT prophesised of what was to come but could not understand it. They studied their own prophecies intently.
With the HS in us, we can now understand, we can now see the whole picture and the future is revealed (Daniel, Revelation).
One thing I recently noted is how we are "sealed" with the spirit. In the same way the blood over the doorway sealed Israel from the angel of death, in the same way the 144,000 will be sealed, in the same way Noah was sealed in the ark, etc.
We are told now, that the force, or power - the HS - is what is now keeping mankind's evil in check.
We are told at some point it will leave the world, its specific purpose for this age fulfilled. When it leaves, since it indwells in us, we will go with it.
Once it is gone, mankind's evil will run rampant - unchecked, there will be nothing to hold it back. God's love dwelling in this world in human hearts will be gone. I shudder to imagine a world like that. Thus, the name for that age - the Tribulation.
Its shameful how TWI never taught its people basic truths from the Word. The HS reveals God to you as he opens your eyes in the Word and in other ways. Not your retemories and VP's definitions.
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Oakspear
The so-called Great Principle was based on Wierwille's doctrine that God could not speak to us directly, I think that Wierwille said something like "God can only speak to what he is, i.e, spirit", related to his assetion that God can only give what he is.
I don't think that either can be supported by the bible.
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likeaneagle
Right Oakspear- I remember that too. So that relates to the Gift and the Giver. So from this, I assume that he teaches our Spirit which teaches our mind? But we are the driver's, only when we are meek and ready, he then can teach us.
Yes, I agree, I need scripture, to me it sounds wayish,altho, I have utilized these mechanics for so long, it is second nature..I only second guess my own abilities, but I never doubt love.
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Eyesopen
May I be so bold as to inject a personal comment?
That whole definition of VPW never really did anything for me. The idea that God would be limited to whom He could be speak seemed absurd at the time that I was taught it and we all know now that it is completely ridiculous. So... for me to understand the way that holy spirit works in me in realation to my hiding the Word in my heart I simplified things. I study the Word, I remember all that I can of it (not in retemories or in memorizing, but learning and trying to understand). As my life progresses and events occure the holy spirit brings certain verses or sections to the forefront of my thoughts and enlightens them or points out relevent information contained in them in relation to how they are relevent to my present state of mind, circumstances and events. Somethimes the sections have nothing to do with my life but something happening around me may trigger a personal understanding of an event or orientalism found in the Bible. I believe that this is the holy spirit working in me to help bring understanding of the Word. I hope that that makes sense. Perhaps it is too simple, but it works for me.
Sunesis- Great points! Wonderful how you put that information together so simply.
You have caused me to rethink and critique some things. Thanks.
So sorry to have jumped into your thread like that. I'll sit back and finish my coffee now. Please continue.
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T-Bone
Yeah, Oak - I guess he ignored the part in Genesis 3 – after Adam and Eve sinned – they both HEARD God walking in the Garden, hid from Him and then even had a CONVERSATION with Him about what just happened.
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Sunesis
Eyesopen, feel free to jump into as many threads as you want, that's what we're here for! We discuss. We may not all agree, but its interesting to read differing opinions. Thanks for the kind words!
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lindyhopper
Yeah, that definition was pretty goofy.
If God can only speak to spirit then why was your spirit so much more special? It could speak to you and to God and hear from both. It also brings up the interesting dynamic of SIT as perfect prayer, where God tells his spirit in you to tell you what to tell him, all the while you have no idea what you are saying.
I believe there are plenty of places in the Bible where God speaks or communicates with "unbelievers."
Eyes...
I don't mean to offend, but this works the same for me with many other topics. For example, something scientific that I don't understand but think about from time to time. One day something may happen and it helps me understand what I was thinking about. It just seems to be how the brain works.
Perhaps the spirit is a little more integrated in your being and not something "seperate" as Wierwille's definition seems to imply. He used to say "God's hands behind your hands, God's behind behind your behind..." or something like that. Martindale used to describe it as a well tailored shirt. Why behind? Why on you like a shirt? Why sperate from you? What does it mean for the spirit to be IN you? Is it something that you contain or something that is as much you as you?
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cman
something so simple just has to be complicated by people who wish to control God's spirit which is in every person
no wonder so many confuse themselves and not get back to simple thinking and doing the easy simple things like love and giving
then these wills are one, and they are most of the time with most people
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WordWolf
I think it was Raf who I first saw carry the logic out on paper so that it was obvious what nagged one about
that doctrine.
By "that doctrine", I meant the one where "God can only speak to that which He is".
The idea is that God, who is Spirit (and even vpw said, at other times "but He is other things too"),
is unable to communicate directly with our minds, because He is Spirit, and Spirit can't
communicate directly with flesh (and therefore, mind).
So then God implanted spirit within us to overcome that impossibility.
So God's Spirit interfaces directly with our spirit.
Ok, no problems there. We have easier analogies now that we have the internet and related technologies,
so I can follow all that easily.
The NEXT step, however, is the problem.
OUR spirit then communicates with our mind.
HEY!
You just said spirit and mind CAN'T COMMUNICATE!
That's the whole idea behind the doctrine!
So God's Great Big Spirit can't communicate with my mind (it's impossible),
but my tiny-by-comparison spirit can do it easily anytime I want?
Doesn't wash.
=============
As to who and what God Almighty can communicate with, I think most of us monotheists here agree that
God Almighty (being Almighty and all) can communicate with who or whatever He wants, whenever He
wants.
He's effectively got infinite variety in doing so.
Download information directly into one's cerebral cortex? Why not? No verse says He cannot,
no verse says He WOULD not.
Burning bush? Disembodied voice? He's been there, done that, and got the t-shirts.
I might say God MORE EFFICIENTLY communicates by interfacing Spirit-to-spirit. I could see logic in
that and get behind it.
=========
I think my problems with The Great Principle are not insurmountable, but would need to be
addressed.
First of all, this name. "The Great Principle"?
If there is any one "Great Principle", I would say JESUS CHRIST gave it.
"You shall love the Lord your God with everything you've got."
The Second Greatest Principle, then, I would say JESUS CHRIST gave as well.
"You shall love your neighbor like your own self."
(From the context, this can be rephrased as the Golden Rule-
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"-
and the Silver Rule-
"What you don't want others to do to you, don't do to them.")
Compared to mLaSJC, any principle given by any man is a distant runner-up.
So, I don't think this so-called "Great Principle" is that great.
I think it's pretty good.
So, let's see. How would I fix the Pretty Good Principle?
"God is Spirit."
I'm with you there.
The idea behind it says God can only communicate with that which He is.
No, with a little fine-tuning, we see God can communicate MORE EFFICIENTLY with spirit.
"God, who is Spirit"
I'm with you there.
"Teaches His creation in you"
Now I've got a problem again. This phrasing makes it sound as if the spirit in me is
SENTIENT, as in "I can think, and my spirit can think, independently of each other."
I can't get behind that one.
I can accept God communicating with His creation in me, and that operating as a
sort of "translator" (like a modem) to the rest of me.
I can accept that "my" spirit has priorities hard-wired into it. Programming, so to
speak. It can do anything it was programmed to do.
(It has its own drivers, to use computer techspeak a bit more.)
I don't think He TEACHES so much as COMMUNICATES, and the process is what
teaches. The teaching is not confined to the step it's named in, but rather at the
step where it reaches my thinking. And the teaching is not "my spirit to my mind",
but "God who is Spirit" teaching my mind.
Is there a step in-between where "my" spirit is involved?
Yes,
but that's besides the point, and is incidental to the teaching.
Look,
when I post here, I don't grab a pen and write on your screen.
I type into my computer.
My computer, which is technology,
communicates my message to my ISP,
and my ISP communicates to the GSC server,
and that server communicates to your ISP,
and thence to your computer.
Neither your ISP nor mine is said to "write a post" or "read a post" here.
They are part of the process, but incidental to the goals of posting and reading.
So, Pretty-Good Principle.
Nonsense? I would not say so. (Others may disagree.)
Needs improvement? Definitely. (A few will swear it does not.)
"God, who is Spirit, communicates with His creation in you, which is now your spirit,
and then proceeds to instruct your mind."
That's how I'd rephrase that.
I find the rest of it a little idiosyncratic, but serviceable.
"Then it becomes manifested in the senses realm as you act."
Maybe something like
"As you take action, then His Will is done. Or not, depending on your chosen action."
I prefer to use terminology closer to what Jesus used
("Thy Will be done, as in Heaven, so on Earth")
instead of more esoteric twi-speak
("manifested in the senses realm").
I also allowed for the possibility that God can tell you His will, and you can just
blow it off and not carry it out. It seems self-evident to me that this need not be
documented. Let me know if you need it broken down, though.
There's examples in the Bible, and in the modern world.
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cman
being created in the image eliminates any barriers
except the ones we place on ourselves
or others convince us that there some other 'doctrine'
limiting the capabilities of man and God moving in the same rythym
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T-Bone
WordWolf and Raf - great analysis of the Great Principle. Thanks!
Then there's the passage of Balaam having a conversation with his donkey. It says the Lord opened the donkey's mouth in verse 28. I certainly can't explain how God did that – and I don't think it will fit into the Great Principle formula either.
Numbers 22: 24-31 NIV
24 Then the angel of the LORD stood in a narrow path between two vineyards, with walls on both sides. 25 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she pressed close to the wall, crushing Balaam's foot against it. So he beat her again.
26 Then the angel of the LORD moved on ahead and stood in a narrow place where there was no room to turn, either to the right or to the left. 27 When the donkey saw the angel of the LORD, she lay down under Balaam, and he was angry and beat her with his staff. 28 Then the LORD opened the donkey's mouth, and she said to Balaam, "What have I done to you to make you beat me these three times?"
29 Balaam answered the donkey, "You have made a fool of me! If I had a sword in my hand, I would kill you right now."
30 The donkey said to Balaam, "Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?"
"No," he said.
31 Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell face down.
…Thinking about one of VPW's studies in the Blue Book - Are You Limiting God? …My answer to his "question" would be – you definitely have a limited concept of God if you think you can reduce Him to manageable proportions by squeezing Him into PFAL's rules and formulas.
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
It seems that God is equally adept at communicating to those with spirit and those without.
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cman
amen oaks....
it's a lie
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markomalley
Likeaneagle,
I am glad you started this topic.
Until people started discussing it, I had completely forgotten what the "great principle" was.
Not that I care either...but I'm glad that my TWI experience is fading away enough that I am starting to forget some of their flaked-out beliefs. And that's a good thing.
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likeaneagle
Wow, you all..so much info here. I cannot reply to everyone,but I have a better understanding.
I guess to start off, freewill still lies in between the brain and Spirit. Altho, the brain being the sole source for making decisions, it is the still small voice that we have to help us, because it is still and the way we can get guidance outside the brain, and God knew we were fools from birth and we needed this...just thinking out loud..
Now if Donkey's start talking to me, I will be running.
Marko- little by little, I have been dissecting cetain aspects of twi's teaching to discern truth and error, its a natural process.
folks, please add more..:) this has been so refreshing.
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WordWolf
Giving a precise verse is a LOT trickier.
If I was still operating under the misconception that the Bible was written specifically as a
scientific textbook, then I might have a problem.
I don't think God considers the nuts-and-bolts of the connections to be "need-to-know",
and thus not needed in print at the present time. After Judgement Day, I'd expect something
more in the line of a technical manual. I believe the current system is designed to operate
under the limited understanding of humans across at least 2 millenia.
If that is true, then I'd say it works pretty darn well.
(Except for the people that insist on injecting their doctrine in it, and I don't think that can be
corrected without doing something like having the book issue electric shocks whenever someone
utters an error while holding it or something. "Classical conditioning" isn't God's style, it seems.
He leaves that to Pavlov.
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