Dot, it isn't that Jew's don't believe in heaven or hell. Some do, some don't. But really, is simply not our focus. Our focus is on how to make this life, our home, our family, our community, and our world a better place. There is enough to do in the here and now, without being all caught up in debates about the next life. As Jesus said, sufficient unto today is the evil thereof - or however exactly he said it. You get the idea.
From my understanding and study, Jews simply don't have a set in stone doctrine regarding heaven and hell. You will find pockets of people who as a group believe one way or another, but overall it is up to the individual to study and decide for themselves.
It may be because they are expecting a kingdom on earth. Isn't that the essence of the promise to Abraham? Isn't that what the Messiah is about? Heaven just doesn't fit into their end-time beliefs. There are several Christian organizations that believe this too. They don't believe a place in heaven is the reward for a faithful life. They believe the reward is a place in the kingdom which will be here on earth.
However, Abigail makes a valid point. Getting caught in the debate is easy and can be overwhelming and distracting. One would think there'd be something more definitive on this subject, but the controversies rage...
Okay, Christians believe in heaven. They believe in the Old testament.
Jews believe in the Old testament. They do not believe in heaven or hell.
Why don't Jews believe in heaven and hell and Christians do?
I guess the question would be, since you are tossing the OT in as a common point of reference, where in the OT does the concept of either heaven or hell show up?
Many Christian beliefs (yes, I know that this is obvious) are based on a new testament spin on old testament passages.
Abigail makes a valid point. Getting caught in the debate is easy and can be overwhelming and distracting
It also seems to me togenerally be a waste of time, people have debated about what they can know little or next to nothing for centuries when they could have been doing something constructive in the here and now--which to me at least signifies a real trust and faith concerning any afterlife
The other day, one was explaining to me how as a jew they believe in doing good things now, not for any future "heaven" or rewards. The acts of kindness are really self contained. They do them to make the world a better place for someonw else right NOW.
I wondered what it would be like to think there was no heaven and I told him, ya know, without my belief in heaven -- I do not think I would want to continue to live. I do not find life all that great.
He said that is why Christians invented heaven -- it maks life tolerable.
I have been thinking about what he said.
I do not see heaven in the OT
IS it a CHristain revelation?
If it is an invention, I would be oh so sad.
Even if it isn't there believing it is DOES make life tolerable.
This guy bought an air pump and will actually put air in tires of strangers when he sees them going flat. He lives a "kind" and giving life with no expectations of being "paid back" or rewarded in heaven. He does things because they are the right thing to do and when he dies he expects to be put in the ground and it is over.
I never knew they did not believe in heaven.
His kindness even meant more to me as he explained his beliefs.
And I asked about hell and he said they do not believe in that either. To live a rotten life and to be mean to people also brings immediate things back to you. Cause pain -- get pain.
Then, I was just very humbled by all of this.
I said, "So, you are just kind?"
He said yeah and everyone hates us. Now there are some bas tards that are Jews, he said, but the teachings are to be good and helpful people today and each day.
I really like these Jewish men, apparently I am a heaven believing Shiksta (sp?)
I like the sense of community. And the ethics are great.
You may find this information interesting. It is from a Chassidic website. I do not practice Chassidism, I am simply not disciplined enough for that. But I believe much of what they teach and value much of what they value.
One of the fundamental beliefs of Judaism is that life does not begin
with birth nor end with death. This is articulated in the verse in
Kohelet (Ecclesiastes), "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and
the spirit returns to G-d, who gave it." [1]
i) the wholly spiritual existence of the soul before it enters the
body;
ii) physical life;
iii) post-physical life in Gan Eden (the "Garden of Eden," also called
"Heaven" and "Paradise");
iv) the "World to Come" (Olam HaBa) that follows the resurrection of
the dead.
I am not going to post the whole article, because it is quite lengthy. But the point is, while your two Jewish co-workers may not believe in heaven, many Jewish people do. You will find there is much diversity within Judaism regarding spiritual issues - much freedom to study and formulate your own beliefs, much freedom to debate.
Jewish people are bound by some very core principals and traditions - and even within those, there is still diversity. For instance, while you may find disagreement within Judaism regarding the existence of heaven, you will find great solidarity regarding the idea that we are here to give and make our world a better place.
BTW, I happen to agree with you - the notion that there is nothing after this life is very depressing and discouraging.
Abi, the more I learn from you about the Jewish religion, the more I like the way they think, what they teach and practice. Thank you for sharing what you know with us. :)
Yeah, the heaven it seems in the OT is not the future thing – sorry, I misspoke
Abi
The Docs were telling me about a part of the Jewish faith called mes ionic Judaism.
They believe in Jesus ---
Well, I do not worship Jesus as God, etc., so I feel interested in this.
However, Dr. said I would have to become a Jew first, then believe in Jesus, I cannot just go join.
He said Jews do not prostelitize as they are not looking for recruits.
They kinda want to be left alone to live their lives.
I really like these guys and how they think, but I do not want to become Jewish in order to then become a messianic Jew, cause I am not giving up Jesus. Especially just to accept him back after accepted by the Jews. I have been looking for a place to worship.
But I find the whole thing more closely to what I believe. I believe Jesus is the messiah and well… this seems closer than a lot of other thigs. I do have to read about it more as I have just been listening to the Doc.
"Messianic Judaism is a religion centered on the life, teachings and worship of Jesus of Nazareth, called "Yeshua" by its adherents. It is reported to have at least 47,000 followers and 280 congregations worldwide as of 2006"
Dot, I am familiar with Messianic Judaism, but it is not what I practice.
Your doc's are correct, in that MOST Jewish sects do not prostelitize, with the exception of Chabad. The reasoning is thus (in simplified format):
All of our souls were created with specific purposes. If you were born Jewish you have one set of possible purposes, if you were not born Jewish you have another set of possible purposes. Not that one is better than another, just that they are unique/different. Those who are not Jewish have laws they must follow, but much much fewer - what they call the Noahide (sp) laws. Because being Jewish is harder (in that there are more laws to follow), it is felt that one must be fully informed and very very sure before they make the committment to take on these laws.
The Chabad's prostelitize because they believe with the dispora, many have lost the knowledge of our forefathers. They Prostelitize first and foremost to their Jewish kin. However, they will also prostelitize to those who are not Jewish because it is possible there are many people out there who are of Jewish decent, but don't know it. Many Jews were forced into conversion generations ago and thus their decedents are unaware of the history. They feel if you are "called to Judaism" you have a Jewish soul, regardless of what your heritage is.
I consider myself Jewish. I also believe in Jesus. Through studying Kaballah (not the Madonna, modern pop-culture kaballah, but the Jewish Kaballah) I have come to view Jesus in a very real, but very different light that traditional Christianity teaches. You may find that you will learn much from Judaism that will bless you and benefit your life as a Christian - and converstion isn't required to learn. :)
Thanks for all your information, I do appreciate it
I do feel "at home" with these guys.
Years ago I witnessed to Jews and wore a star of Davis with a cross in it.
Jews for Jesus they were called.
What is your view on the Christ?
I could, but it might take a very very long time. In short, I believe what he taught. However, my entire perception and understanding of what he taught is entirely different than what I was taught in TWI.
Well, religiously it really means nothing at all. Or it can mean alot. :) Again, no rigid doctrine.
HERE is an article that gives a history and explanation. I will quote a few excerpts:
. . . . . It is supposed to represent the shape of King David's shield (or perhaps the emblem on it), but there is really no support for that claim in any early rabbinic literature. In fact, the symbol is so rare in early Jewish literature and artwork that art dealers suspect forgery if they find the symbol in early Jewish works.
Scholars such as Franz Rosenzweig have attributed deep theological significance to the symbol. For example, some note that the top triangle strives upward, toward G-d, while the lower triangle strives downward, toward the real world. Some note that the intertwining makes the triangles inseparable, like the Jewish people. Some say that the three sides represent the three types of Jews: Kohanim, Levites and Israel. Some note that there are actually 12 sides (3 exterior and 3 interior on each triangle), representing the 12 tribes. While these theories are theologically interesting, they have little basis in historical fact. . . .
The Magen David gained popularity as a symbol of Judaism when it was adopted as the emblem of the Zionist movement in 1897, but the symbol continued to be controversial for many years afterward. When the modern state of Israel was founded, there was much debate over whether this symbol should be used on the flag.
Today, the Magen David is a universally recognized symbol of Jewry. It appears on the flag of the state of Israel, and the Israeli equivalent of the Red Cross is known as the Red Magen David.
The Magen David gained popularity as a symbol of Judaism when it was adopted as the emblem of the Zionist movement in 1897, but the symbol continued to be controversial for many years afterward. When the modern state of Israel was founded, there was much debate over whether this symbol should be used on the flag.
When I first read this -- I misread Magen David as Mogen David --- (the wine)!
:redface: :redface: :redface:
Great topic Dot. And Abi --- thanks for all the constructive input.
When I first read this -- I misread Magen David as Mogen David --- (the wine)!
:redface: :redface: :redface:
Great topic Dot. And Abi --- thanks for all the constructive input.
VERY EDUCATIONAL!!
:)
Yeah, Sushi and I had a good laugh over my MD20-20 Star of David too. Ever drink Manechevitz (sp) wine? It is a very popular Jewish wine for holidays (at least among my family). Stuff tastes like MD22 and believe me, if I drank a glass instead of sip every time we were supposed to during some of the holiday meals, I'd be passed out drunk before the ceremony was over!
Most Christians believe in "going to heaven" when they die, but if you read the words of Jesus, he never promised that. It was always the Jewish concept of the Kingdom of God on earth. That was what he constantly preached and taught about. And the apostles did the same throughout the new Testament.
Heaven refers to either the physical space above the earth, or the abode of God, and is sometimes used to figuratively refer to God, such as "I have sinned against heaven" meant "I have sinned against God." But heaven was never the destination in the teaching of Jesus. Our rewards are said to be stored or laid up in heaven, but Jesus said he brings them with him when he returns. We don't go there to enjoy the rewards any more than we would go to the bank to enjoy our money.
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starbird
apparently they do believe in heaven and hell..it differs slightly from how christians
believe in them..but they do believe in both
starbird x x x
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year2027
God first
Beloved Dot Matrix
God loves you my dear friend
I do not know "why the Jews do not believe in heaven or hell"
maybe they think its a place within us and just call it my a differ name
I believe in seven plus layers of heaven
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Abigail
Dot, it isn't that Jew's don't believe in heaven or hell. Some do, some don't. But really, is simply not our focus. Our focus is on how to make this life, our home, our family, our community, and our world a better place. There is enough to do in the here and now, without being all caught up in debates about the next life. As Jesus said, sufficient unto today is the evil thereof - or however exactly he said it. You get the idea.
From my understanding and study, Jews simply don't have a set in stone doctrine regarding heaven and hell. You will find pockets of people who as a group believe one way or another, but overall it is up to the individual to study and decide for themselves.
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JumpinJive
It may be because they are expecting a kingdom on earth. Isn't that the essence of the promise to Abraham? Isn't that what the Messiah is about? Heaven just doesn't fit into their end-time beliefs. There are several Christian organizations that believe this too. They don't believe a place in heaven is the reward for a faithful life. They believe the reward is a place in the kingdom which will be here on earth.
However, Abigail makes a valid point. Getting caught in the debate is easy and can be overwhelming and distracting. One would think there'd be something more definitive on this subject, but the controversies rage...
-JJ
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Oakspear
Many Christian beliefs (yes, I know that this is obvious) are based on a new testament spin on old testament passages.
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mstar1
It also seems to me togenerally be a waste of time, people have debated about what they can know little or next to nothing for centuries when they could have been doing something constructive in the here and now--which to me at least signifies a real trust and faith concerning any afterlife
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Dot Matrix
I am not in a debate.
I work with two Jeswish guys.
We talk about many enlightening things.
The other day, one was explaining to me how as a jew they believe in doing good things now, not for any future "heaven" or rewards. The acts of kindness are really self contained. They do them to make the world a better place for someonw else right NOW.
I wondered what it would be like to think there was no heaven and I told him, ya know, without my belief in heaven -- I do not think I would want to continue to live. I do not find life all that great.
He said that is why Christians invented heaven -- it maks life tolerable.
I have been thinking about what he said.
I do not see heaven in the OT
IS it a CHristain revelation?
If it is an invention, I would be oh so sad.
Even if it isn't there believing it is DOES make life tolerable.
This guy bought an air pump and will actually put air in tires of strangers when he sees them going flat. He lives a "kind" and giving life with no expectations of being "paid back" or rewarded in heaven. He does things because they are the right thing to do and when he dies he expects to be put in the ground and it is over.
I never knew they did not believe in heaven.
His kindness even meant more to me as he explained his beliefs.
And I asked about hell and he said they do not believe in that either. To live a rotten life and to be mean to people also brings immediate things back to you. Cause pain -- get pain.
Then, I was just very humbled by all of this.
I said, "So, you are just kind?"
He said yeah and everyone hates us. Now there are some bas tards that are Jews, he said, but the teachings are to be good and helpful people today and each day.
I really like these Jewish men, apparently I am a heaven believing Shiksta (sp?)
I like the sense of community. And the ethics are great.
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cman
I see plenty of heaven and heavens in the old testament Dot.
I do believe it is a now thing though.
Not some future happening that isn't relevant or real.
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cman
a general view of it in different faiths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven
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Abigail
Dot,
You may find this information interesting. It is from a Chassidic website. I do not practice Chassidism, I am simply not disciplined enough for that. But I believe much of what they teach and value much of what they value.
One of the fundamental beliefs of Judaism is that life does not begin
with birth nor end with death. This is articulated in the verse in
Kohelet (Ecclesiastes), "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and
the spirit returns to G-d, who gave it." [1]
i) the wholly spiritual existence of the soul before it enters the
body;
ii) physical life;
iii) post-physical life in Gan Eden (the "Garden of Eden," also called
"Heaven" and "Paradise");
iv) the "World to Come" (Olam HaBa) that follows the resurrection of
the dead.
I am not going to post the whole article, because it is quite lengthy. But the point is, while your two Jewish co-workers may not believe in heaven, many Jewish people do. You will find there is much diversity within Judaism regarding spiritual issues - much freedom to study and formulate your own beliefs, much freedom to debate.
Jewish people are bound by some very core principals and traditions - and even within those, there is still diversity. For instance, while you may find disagreement within Judaism regarding the existence of heaven, you will find great solidarity regarding the idea that we are here to give and make our world a better place.
BTW, I happen to agree with you - the notion that there is nothing after this life is very depressing and discouraging.
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Belle
Abi, the more I learn from you about the Jewish religion, the more I like the way they think, what they teach and practice. Thank you for sharing what you know with us. :)
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Dot Matrix
Yeah, the heaven it seems in the OT is not the future thing – sorry, I misspoke
Abi
The Docs were telling me about a part of the Jewish faith called mes ionic Judaism.
They believe in Jesus ---
Well, I do not worship Jesus as God, etc., so I feel interested in this.
However, Dr. said I would have to become a Jew first, then believe in Jesus, I cannot just go join.
He said Jews do not prostelitize as they are not looking for recruits.
They kinda want to be left alone to live their lives.
I really like these guys and how they think, but I do not want to become Jewish in order to then become a messianic Jew, cause I am not giving up Jesus. Especially just to accept him back after accepted by the Jews. I have been looking for a place to worship.
But I find the whole thing more closely to what I believe. I believe Jesus is the messiah and well… this seems closer than a lot of other thigs. I do have to read about it more as I have just been listening to the Doc.
"Messianic Judaism is a religion centered on the life, teachings and worship of Jesus of Nazareth, called "Yeshua" by its adherents. It is reported to have at least 47,000 followers and 280 congregations worldwide as of 2006"
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Abigail
Dot, I am familiar with Messianic Judaism, but it is not what I practice.
Your doc's are correct, in that MOST Jewish sects do not prostelitize, with the exception of Chabad. The reasoning is thus (in simplified format):
All of our souls were created with specific purposes. If you were born Jewish you have one set of possible purposes, if you were not born Jewish you have another set of possible purposes. Not that one is better than another, just that they are unique/different. Those who are not Jewish have laws they must follow, but much much fewer - what they call the Noahide (sp) laws. Because being Jewish is harder (in that there are more laws to follow), it is felt that one must be fully informed and very very sure before they make the committment to take on these laws.
The Chabad's prostelitize because they believe with the dispora, many have lost the knowledge of our forefathers. They Prostelitize first and foremost to their Jewish kin. However, they will also prostelitize to those who are not Jewish because it is possible there are many people out there who are of Jewish decent, but don't know it. Many Jews were forced into conversion generations ago and thus their decedents are unaware of the history. They feel if you are "called to Judaism" you have a Jewish soul, regardless of what your heritage is.
I consider myself Jewish. I also believe in Jesus. Through studying Kaballah (not the Madonna, modern pop-culture kaballah, but the Jewish Kaballah) I have come to view Jesus in a very real, but very different light that traditional Christianity teaches. You may find that you will learn much from Judaism that will bless you and benefit your life as a Christian - and converstion isn't required to learn. :)
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Dot Matrix
Abi
Thanks for all your information, I do appreciate it
I do feel "at home" with these guys.
Years ago I witnessed to Jews and wore a star of Davis with a cross in it.
Jews for Jesus they were called.
What is your view on the Christ?
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Abigail
I could, but it might take a very very long time.
In short, I believe what he taught. However, my entire perception and understanding of what he taught is entirely different than what I was taught in TWI.
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GarthP2000
Abigail, got a question for you.
What does the Star of David mean anyway? And where did it come from?
Thanks.
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Abigail
Well, religiously it really means nothing at all. Or it can mean alot. :) Again, no rigid doctrine.
HERE is an article that gives a history and explanation. I will quote a few excerpts:
. . . . . It is supposed to represent the shape of King David's shield (or perhaps the emblem on it), but there is really no support for that claim in any early rabbinic literature. In fact, the symbol is so rare in early Jewish literature and artwork that art dealers suspect forgery if they find the symbol in early Jewish works.
Scholars such as Franz Rosenzweig have attributed deep theological significance to the symbol. For example, some note that the top triangle strives upward, toward G-d, while the lower triangle strives downward, toward the real world. Some note that the intertwining makes the triangles inseparable, like the Jewish people. Some say that the three sides represent the three types of Jews: Kohanim, Levites and Israel. Some note that there are actually 12 sides (3 exterior and 3 interior on each triangle), representing the 12 tribes. While these theories are theologically interesting, they have little basis in historical fact. . . .
The Magen David gained popularity as a symbol of Judaism when it was adopted as the emblem of the Zionist movement in 1897, but the symbol continued to be controversial for many years afterward. When the modern state of Israel was founded, there was much debate over whether this symbol should be used on the flag.
Today, the Magen David is a universally recognized symbol of Jewry. It appears on the flag of the state of Israel, and the Israeli equivalent of the Red Cross is known as the Red Magen David.
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dmiller
When I first read this -- I misread Magen David as Mogen David --- (the wine)!
Great topic Dot. And Abi --- thanks for all the constructive input.
VERY EDUCATIONAL!!
:)
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Abigail
Yeah, Sushi and I had a good laugh over my MD20-20 Star of David too. Ever drink Manechevitz (sp) wine? It is a very popular Jewish wine for holidays (at least among my family). Stuff tastes like MD22 and believe me, if I drank a glass instead of sip every time we were supposed to during some of the holiday meals, I'd be passed out drunk before the ceremony was over!
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Dot Matrix
Sorry, I am such a bad typist I wrote star of Davis
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Oakspear
I believe Mogen David is just a variant spelling of Magen David.
Star of Davis? That would be Sammy, right?
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Sushi
MD 2020 being short for Mad Dog 2020.
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Dot Matrix
LOL
LOL
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Mark Clarke
Most Christians believe in "going to heaven" when they die, but if you read the words of Jesus, he never promised that. It was always the Jewish concept of the Kingdom of God on earth. That was what he constantly preached and taught about. And the apostles did the same throughout the new Testament.
Heaven refers to either the physical space above the earth, or the abode of God, and is sometimes used to figuratively refer to God, such as "I have sinned against heaven" meant "I have sinned against God." But heaven was never the destination in the teaching of Jesus. Our rewards are said to be stored or laid up in heaven, but Jesus said he brings them with him when he returns. We don't go there to enjoy the rewards any more than we would go to the bank to enjoy our money.
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