I've got a jack ---

[Captain Crunch]

So IMO, nothing has been exposed. One regime has been toppled and another has gained supremacy. Woo woo. It was nice of Paw, I suppose, to let the coup's leaders make GS a bully pulpit for their cause. I just wonder what was accomplished, other than someone getting his job back and someone else getting the boot. Happens in corporate America daily, without our help.

Linda, and anyone else confused about who started all this on GS. I posted first. And as I have gotten new info I have attempted to post more. I am not someone high in CES. But I do care deeply about those that are and everyone who thought CES would be different. I am just someone prayfully doing what he can with what he has. I heard the buzz that CES leaders thought the problem was only a few months old. But I became aware of it when John Lynn divorced his 2nd wife after only a year and a half.

Read the documents in the "Read the Facts First" thread. There are a lot of lurkers reading these documents who are quietly praying and acting accordingly. Just because they don't post doesn't mean that nothing is happening. I am sure this is impacting everyone involved.

CC

[pawtucket]

Oakspear said:

I agree. Here's how I see it: Some people were po'd at MG and KAG (it sounds to an outsider like they were justified in their anger), and they used GreaseSpot Cafe as a handy place to stage a coup. They effectively got rid of MG and KAG, but CES lives on, complete with its personal prophecy doctrine and (according to eyewitness accounts) its continued promotion of crap like Momentus.

So IMO, nothing has been exposed. One regime has been toppled and another has gained supremacy. Woo woo. It was nice of Paw, I suppose, to let the coup's leaders make GS a bully pulpit for their cause. I just wonder what was accomplished, other than someone getting his job back and someone else getting the boot. Happens in corporate America daily, without our help.

Linda,

It has been much much more than a changing of the guard. This whole process from December on has made previously suspicious doctrine open for discussion. I have heard of this activity for about a year now. But I was never able to get any documentation until I was approached in December.

Personal prophecy was widely used in CES/STFI and it really had no Biblical roots.

I've received dozens of emails from people that thought something was wrong, but didn't know how to bring it up.

I think this process allowed doctrines to be discussed freely and openly.

On a personal level, I have some life long friends that I felt were being duped by some of these practices. From their viewpoint, they thought something wasn't quite right, but "trusted" the leadership. I don't think we have revamped their doctrine, but we have made their followers aware, which is always a good thing. If they decide to continue following, then at least they have seen another perspective.

[TheInvisibleDan]

The internet has been very good for this sort of thing.

Cults can't keep people in the dark like they used to.

Readers and seekers can spare themselves years upon years and even decades of their lives

of subjection to any devious organization, from being at a disadvantage of unknowingly

supporting a corrupted system, all at the click of a mouse.

Would have been good had the 'net been around back in '85 or earlier.

I could have invested the gold of my youth toward far more worthy purposes,

besides spinning my wheels on baseless fictions and filling the pockets of

deluded men pretending to be Bible-Land characters.

Danny

Edited February 17, 2007 by TheInvisibleDan

[Estimated Prophet]

If you genuinely feel that way, then what "rule" or "yoke" compels you to post here, Mr. Prophet?

Or is it "Jesus" moving you to do so?

...

P.S. -I might also add, that Jesus didn't seem to have a problem openly debating and disputing with the scribes, lawyers

and pharisees - before all the crowds - through the open "forums" of His day.

Danny,

and Jesus had a way of slipping away from their clutches when he chose to as well.

a good rule of thumb:

If your yoke is hard and your burden is heavy,

then perhaps that's an indicator that you're not under the yoke of Jesus Christ

I'd like to believe that it is the spirit of Christ moving me to post here,

but I recall times where some of my rants have been moved by a spirit of indignation and wrath

and I mistakenly thought it was holy spirit.

So I won't guarantee any of what I say is a "thus saith the Lord"

and I am indignant with some of the insinuations and exaggerations

that have been made towards some of my friends in the Faith.

and the Lord has revealed somestrongholds in my heart since I came here

and dialogued. He's showing me some bitterness that needs to be squeezed out.

That's part of why he has me coming back.

my sincereity is no guarantee for Truth.

but I pray the Lord gives us understanding in all things

as we consider these things.

and we only know in part,

and prophecy in part;

so we need to hear each other out to really see the bigger picture.

( It would be great for John Lynn or Mark G to be in the discussion,

but they can't be all things to all people,

Thank God that the spirit of Christ is actively present.)

With all seriousness.

It was not so much CES that freed me from the yoke of bondage

as it was Jesus Christ working within them.

and it was not so much Jesus Christ who freed me

as it was our Almighty God and Father

working within Christ.

" to Him be all glory and honor in the Church and in Christ Jesus

now and forever"

Why the Father chooses to work in us people the way He does

is a Mystery to me

but I'm glad he does!

and when people have let me down,

the Savior picks me back up

usually working in another saint.

[Estimated Prophet]

You know what is really sad? People actually believe this.. I'm not saying you do EP, but I'd sure beware. That some man made ministry ran and overseen by fallible humans is what actually freed them.. And so to many, that must mean God is working in this fleshly endeavor so I can put my believing, faith, and trust in it..

What a load of man made ^%$@#&^#

No wonder people let themselves be led so blindly. They replace what really helped, saved, and freed them with something that has just a small resemblance of godliness. And soon the blinders go on until the next thing you know, they are following man rather than God..

How hard is it to understand that God has chosen the base things and the foolishness of this world to lead men back to him?! And hard is it to understand that we don't follow those base and foolish things but only our Lord and Savior and His God. Praise God he was able to use such things to free you, but that really doesn't lend any credance to how godly the man made organization is, any more than all the other man made orginisations that help people to know their Lord and Savior every day while behind the scenes they put in bondage, molest the weak, murder the wise, and kill the innocent.

I hear you , Trust and Obey

and I've learned the hard way that we need to try the spirits

and see if they are of God.

and that it's the sincere people that can really trick you

and we all carry our own load of ^%$@#&^#

and some how God still loves us

and The Real You keeps shining through.

[Estimated Prophet]

Well, since you asked.....

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface as usual.]

Let's talk WW

My attempt to quote you didn't work,

so I have cut and pasted your comments .

I will respond in kind in [[ double brackets]]

>>

I respectfully disagree.

[You have a right to do so.]

[[ Cool ]]

Who made the rule that CES leadership should post their opinions here

and engage in the dialogue?

[With respect, brother, you're asking the wrong question.

Here's a little background.

Some people came out of twi, where open discussion was forbidden.

Some of them-who formed ces/stfi- began with open discussions,

and a public messageboard online.

Then they shut down the public messageboard online.

No more open discussion.

[[ I was unaware of CES providing such a forum]]

The question is "Why has open, public discussion become forbidden

in ces/stfi like it was/is in twi?"

[[ 'Forbidden ' is a strong word.

I don't see any S7T people being forbidden from

enetering this discussion]]

They are free to run their OWN board and moderate their OWN discussions

like they did BEFORE. The reason the discussions ended up HERE is the same

reason twi discussions ended up here- by DEFAULT. They refused to do so,

and there remained a perceived need for open discussion.

(You may not perceive a need for open discussion. I perceive one,

and consider it a necessary part of healthy organizations-

if any organization can be considered 'healthy'.)

[[Agreed

I especially like being able to interrupt you here

without being rude (?)

or disturbing your train of thought as you express yourself]]

So, no one said there is a RULE that ces/stfi need have open discussions

ANYWHERE. However, their refusal to do so raises some interesting questions.

This is no guarantee of wrongdoing or malfeasance, but these are things

that make some people go "Hmmmm...."

[[ Hmmmm....

( which is sometimes the sound of the manifestation of a Word of Wisdom !)

but I do think some people may need to be reminded that no rules have been broken

at least to quell some of the animosity]]

There is neither a rule that they must dialogue HERE even if nowhere else.

However, they seem to have no difficulty playing with, and finessing the

concept. JAL made a press release for posting here, wrote in it

"this is not for posting online", insulted the people who post here,

and had the nerve to pretend to be surprised that it ended up here.

You may consider it "plausible deniability", but I call it "thinly-veiled hypocrisy."

If the "thin veil" fooled you and convinced you he really didn't write it

EXPECTING IT to end up here, that's on you. I suspect you possess more wit

than that.

[[ Careful !

My wife will gladly tell you I can be very gullible.

but I do recogmize John was aware his words would be read on line

and gave his permission for them to be posted here.

but really Wolf,

there are a lot of insults flying around here.

Are we going to let them lead to more misunderstanding and resentment

or to understanding and kinship?

I know I was at first disturbed by this dialogue,

and didn't want to participate.

Now I've made some adjustments in attitude

( thanks to God working in His people)

and its very Cool.

But it is teaching me the art

of walking circumspectly.

and forgive me for not responding to your earlier posts,

but your words are something of a mountain to climb and explore]]

At the same time, the notice IN the internet press release that he

wasn't going to communicate by internet is hypocrisy- going out by internet

as intended. He communicates by internet in the fashion that suits him-

by press release- and NOT in the manner that would encourage open communication-

by messageboard dialogue. At the same time, he says he's not communicating

by internet in any form. Those are 2 things people complain about.]

[[ Valid points.

all I can say is "Hmmmm...." ]]

I don't believe that's comiing from our Lord Jesus.

[i don't need revelation or a precise Bible verse to know when someone's

blowing smoke up my sit-upon.

Jesus warned against those who liked the chief seats.

Paul warned against those who set themselves up as lords over God's heritage.

Further,

I'd go out on a limb and say that-if Jesus was walking around here now, he'd be

using the internet as well. He dialogued with people openly all the time.

On the other hand,

squelching discussion, sitting on news,

I for one don't believe THAT comes from our Lord Jesus, either. ]

[[ I agree that our Lord Jesus does not go about squelching discussions.

I have always believed that it is the Supressing of the Truth

that leads to deception.

With genuine freedom to express ourselves

we can see the bigger picture,

and what is right and true and good

becomes very clear to see.

And I will say as one who has listened to John Lynn for the past 15 years,

he tries very hard not to lord it over people.

I think he recognizes his passion causes that to happen at times,

but I think he tries to not let that happen.

But John is wired to be very assertive.

That's how he functions.

I don't always agree with him,

nor he with me,

but I love him for being genuine.

You can call it hypocrisy if you want,

but I won't.

He just said his communication will be One on One.

And I have no idea how he finds the time and energy

to maintain communication with as many people as he does.

I really don't think he has the time to give the Grease Spot the time and attention it demands.

Half baked posts get crucified around here in short order I dare sayI]]

I will even say that Christian Educational Services

freed me from the yoke of having to live up to other people's expectations,

and all those man-made rules and reg's.

[That's wonderful.

And I learned some good stuff in twi.

Which did nothing to excuse them from ruining the lives of others.

So, how many "success stories" does it take to excuse the lives

ruined because some people were railroaded into Momentus,

or someone leaned on them with "personal prophecy", public ridicule

USING "personal prophecy", or both?

[[ Those are strong words Wolf

perhaps valid in some cases.

It doesn't take ' stories success' to justify or excuse the harm that was done.

It takes the Cross.

and I know you know that.

I think we all need to learn to distinguish between the will of God and the will of man

and then find the wisdom and inner strength

to swim against the current when need be.]]

Please note that I consider this a trick question.

I don't consider ANY number of personal anecdotes of "success stories"

to excuse those who call themselves leaders from ruining lives of

ANY of the people they ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY FOR.

However, if you think differently, feel free to tell me how many lives

can be exchanged for how many lives.]

[[ As I said

One life is all it took in exchange for the many.

That is why the Cross is So Powerful

( which the Way never seemed to fully apprciate. )

but I do believe your indignation is righteous,

and grieve with you for the harm that came to those you obviously love.

and I know we will all be held accountable for every word and deed.

The Lord has never tolerated False Prohets.

There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth at the judgement seat.

and for those of you who have been burned,

The Chief Shepherd, Jesus, is faithful to come to your side and bring healing and wholeness.

It's a process that will not be completed

until we put off this corruptible body

and put on incorruption

at His Return.

But it's a process that always gives us hope.

and even in the wounds you have suffered

he will reveal his redeeming love that is poured out in your heart.

and he will take that affliction and work it into an eternal weight of Glory.]]

So if it bothers you that JL or MG or JS aren't here every day like some of us

just let it go.

[That's misrepresentative of our positions. Few, if any, expect any of them to

be here regularly. I certainly don't.]

[[fine]]

Its very liberating.

[Most of us who are counselling caution are quite liberated, thank you for the

concern. We don't lose sleep or get hypertension over where any of them

post or don't post, for that matter.]

[[ very well,

but I have a strong sense that many may be carried by their caution

to a point where they are losing their peace.

perhaps using their liberty to bite and devour

I know I can't speak for anyone else,

but I do know I have had to battle for peace and for the high ground.

as I've read through this dialogue

I don't think I am alone.

and I don't regret my presence here. ]]

and if you really want their point of view

just call or write them.

[Which is a LOT better than a vacuum of communication.

However, it falls FAR short of OPEN COMMUNICATION-

which was one of our main complaints from the beginning.

And at least one person tried that-using their legal name-and got no response.

Which means there's no guarantee that will work.]

[[ nope

no guarantees.

But our Lord knows how to make each of us stand,

so keep your eyes on Him,

and trust Him to straighten out those who are weak in the Faith. ]]

Peace

[I'm all for peace. I can get behind that.

I'm not that keen about "let's pretend there's no problems and we'll pretend that's

peace". If that's something you mean, then I can't get behind it.]

[[ I like you Mr. WordWolf.

I don't mean to pretend there are no problems.

I just want to focus on what's right and good.

thanks for talking with me.]]

Edited February 17, 2007 by Estimated Prophet

[Linda Z]

Thanks, CC & Paw.

CC, I did read the documents, and I knew yoiu were the one who started this discussion.

Paw, you make a good point, that people who weren't aware of the pp junk have had an opportunity to learn about it here. That is worthwhile, for sure.

[Estimated Prophet]

Well, he's not my Lord anyway. But seriously, what does Jesus have to do with whether someone should discuss what they put up on a discussion forum?

Jesus is not your Lord?

Thanks for letting me know.

Then you can play by your own rules if you like.

He has everything to do with my life.

I do my best to play by his rules.

[WordWolf]

Jesus is not your Lord?

Thanks for letting me know.

Then you can play by your own rules if you like.

He has everything to do with my life.

I do my best to play by his rules.

The GSC is a general discussion board, primarily for twi and twi survivors.

Some of those survivors are currently Christian, some are not.

All are welcome to participate in the discussions.

Politeness is requested and appreciated, and sometimes is even received! :)

There's no doctrinal requirement for participation.

Even CURRENT twi members are welcome to read and post here- so long as

they follow the few rules and common courtesy expected on the average

messageboard.

Periodically, someone DOES get surprised that there are non-Christians here.

However, many of them are courteous posters, and many posters who are

NOT polite are Christians. There's no categorical requirement either way,

it appears.

I've found this is less of a shock for me, since I communicate with all sorts

of people online, and there's no correlation between doctrine and manners.

In fact, the most vicious attacks I've gotten online were from fellow Christians,

for whom Christ died. Likewise, many of the most special communications I've

received are from fellow Christians. We're not to withdraw ourselves entirely

from the world-and it seems logical to me that this applies online as well as

offline.

It is said that travel broadens the mind, and I have found that it is so IMO.

I will add that travelling ONLINE will likewise broaden the mind, if not so

much and in so many ways as doing so OFFLINE.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Very well stated Wordwolf. A voice of maturity, fairness and love for all.

[Estimated Prophet]

The GSC is a general discussion board, primarily for twi and twi survivors.

Some of those survivors are currently Christian, some are not.

All are welcome to participate in the discussions.

Politeness is requested and appreciated, and sometimes is even received! :)

There's no doctrinal requirement for participation.

Understood.

Please forgive, Oakspear,

If my words seemed harsh.

I was just surprised by your statement.

I stand by what I said,

but with no ill will for you.

Really.

I will also add that from your posts I can see your rules, or standards,

seem quite positive and constructive.

you'd make a Great Christian !!

Thanks for sharing,

and God Bless You

[WordWolf]

EP,

if you're tensing up, relax those muscles. :)

I think all of us who've been here awhile have posted at least a few things they might have regretted later,

whether for the content, or for the phraseology, the wording.

If you stumbled like the rest of us, you'll manage like the rest of us.

You should see what qualifies as "acceptable" in some of the REALLY contentious threads.

:)

[Sunesis]

EP, I'm sure many of us are moved by the Holy Spirit to post here, trust me, you aren't the only one.

Also, many of us are not moved by the Holy Spirit to post here, but we're here anyway - all TWI survivors.

You are just one in thousands and a newbie here.

What you say, or believe is your operation of being a "prophet" (TWI's favorite ministry for anyone to have by the way, which for 99.999 percent of those who think they are a prophet, is nothing but ego - huge ego - hey, I'm God's spokesman, listen to me!!!) to us, means nothing. In fact, we will probably figure, you're most likely a false one.

Chill out, enjoy our discussions, get to know us.

Don't come here in your "prophet" persona, be yourself.

[Estimated Prophet]

Chill out, enjoy our discussions, get to know us.

Don't come here in your "prophet" persona, be yourself.

It's cool.

and I am not a Prophet.

My name was supposed to be a bit of a joke

because I knew my first post was one of my high and mighty rants.

But my opinions are strictly my own .

The Estimated Prophet is a song by the Grateful Dead.

It was inspired by a raving Jesus Freak , as well as the book of Ezechiel.

It has also inspired me for nearly 30 years now as well.

So the name suits me on a number of levels.

My posts have sprung out of a deep level of my heart,

so please excuse me for coming on strong.

and with a name like Sunesis,

I trust you understand

[Sunesis]

Ahhh... I get it now EP! I was never a Dead fan, more Airplane, Hendrix, Joplin, etc.

I think with a name like EP and ranting your first post, people may have thought you have come to set us all straight.

No problem, I understand :)

Edited February 20, 2007 by Sunesis

[Estimated Prophet]

Ahhh... I get it now EP! I was never a Dead fan, more Airplane, Hendrix, Joplin, etc.

I think with a name like EP and ranting your first post, people may have thought you have come to set us all straight.

No problem, I understand :)

Groovy

" I ain't often right but I've never been wrong,

it seldom works out the way it does in a song

Once in a while you can get shown the Light

in the strangest of places if you look at it right"

Robert Hunter

[sprawled out]

and Jesus had a way of slipping away from their clutches when he chose to as well.

"clutches?" your choice of words betrays your prejudice, Esty.

a good rule of thumb:

If your yoke is hard and your burden is heavy,

then perhaps that's an indicator that you're not under the yoke of Jesus Christ

perhaps you should advise the apostle paul. i guess he suffered all those lashings, imprisonment, etc. under some other yoke.

EP, you seem like a nice guy (gal?), but for a deadhead, you're pretty caught up in all the rules and regs of christianity. feels pretty at odds with misfit power. hey, if the Dead were about anything (other than music), it was freedom. or perhaps more precisely, anarchy. why not let it shine, EP?

let it shine.

[Oakspear]

Understood.

Please forgive, Oakspear,

If my words seemed harsh.

No problem, thanks for the apology.

I was just surprised by your statement.

Many "newbies" are when they stumble across the non-Christian minority here. I'm basically an agnostic who participates in pagan/Wiccan/Shamanism ritual and studies their philosophy.

I stand by what I said,

but with no ill will for you.

Really.

Understood.

I will also add that from your posts I can see your rules, or standards,

seem quite positive and constructive.

you'd make a Great Christian !!

...and you'd make a great pagan

[caribousam]

As long as it's not on this forum...

I don't blame them for not talking in this forum. There is too much hateful spew going around, and a lot

of generally over the top commentary.

If people would tone down the gossippy chatter, think before writing, and work toward some real resolution

and peace, and we might get some where. Blessed are the peacemakers, right ?

[sprawled out]

I don't blame them for not talking in this forum. There is too much hateful spew going around, and a lot

of generally over the top commentary.

If people would tone down the gossippy chatter, think before writing, and work toward some real resolution

and peace, and we might get some where. Blessed are the peacemakers, right ?

bite me.

judge not, lest you be judged, right? in MY opinion, it's attitudes like yours that keep us from getting anywhere.

if you can't stand the "over-the-top commentary," get out of the cafe.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Caribousam:

If you want good insightful commentary where people never gossip about one another why don't you try CES or a Momentous class? On second thought, maybe you should instead go to your closet and not come out until until all of us nasty gossipers have reached your obviously high standards.

[Estimated Prophet]

"clutches?" your choice of words betrays your prejudice, Esty.

perhaps you should advise the apostle paul. i guess he suffered all those lashings, imprisonment, etc. under some other yoke.

EP, you seem like a nice guy (gal?), but for a deadhead, you're pretty caught up in all the rules and regs of christianity. feels pretty at odds with misfit power. hey, if the Dead were about anything (other than music), it was freedom. or perhaps more precisely, anarchy. why not let it shine, EP?

let it shine.

Drat !

and Double Drat !!!

I find myself in the clutches

of the deviously dancing Sprawled Out !!!

Pinned by my own words !!

oh the shame

where is my super power

just when I need it the most

I must escape before I subcome to Anarchy !!

( my mother was afraid this would happen )

[Estimated Prophet]

CaribouSam:

Don't let these guys bother you.

I appreciate what you're saying.

Peace

OakSpear:

and you'd make a great DeadHead

Someday I'd like to have a long talk with you

Edited February 21, 2007 by Estimated Prophet

[WordWolf]

I don't blame them for not talking in this forum. There is too much hateful spew going around, and a lot

of generally over the top commentary.

Heaven forbid someone should point out what the board is trying to hide,

or that they should ask the hard questions...

We're supposed to follow leaders off a cliff, not question their abilities to lead...

If people would tone down the gossippy chatter, think before writing, and work toward some real resolution

and peace, and we might get some where. Blessed are the peacemakers, right ?

Hm. The newspapers and news reports must be full of "gossipy chatter".

Lots of us think before we hit the "reply" key.

I daresay most of those posting news (or "gossipy chatter") want to work toward some real resolution-

which is why they're refusing to bury the problems caused by ces/stfi leaders, policies and doctrines.

[sprawled out]

Drat !

and Double Drat !!!

I find myself in the clutches

of the deviously dancing Sprawled Out !!!

Pinned by my own words !!

oh the shame

where is my super power

just when I need it the most

I must escape before I subcome to Anarchy !!

( my mother was afraid this would happen )

hey, EP--can you say "weasel?"