I've got a jack ---

[dmiller]

Sorry! :) Somehow that quote came to mind --

(First thought?????)

I heard from CES/ STF today, via snail mail.

Not much was revealed, except to say that John S. is now president;

Gary T. is vice-president; Dan G. is treasuer; Karen T. is secretary;

and Mark G, and Tom R., are still on the BOD.

The letter that I got admitted that there have been *hard times*,

folks are hurting, harsh words said, and prayers are still requested.

I'm not gonna *quote* any of this letter here, because it is vague enough,

to cause this crowd here to salivate over it, and denigrate words.

Mind you -- I am not defending CES, OR accusing them.

I'd like to hear the other side of the story. If it doesn't wash -- it doesn't come clean.

So I'll be getting in touch with them (e-mail, phone, whatever),

but thought to share this with you all here.

I'll let you know when (and if I get a reply).

[TheInvisibleDan]

Sorry! :) Somehow that quote came to mind --

(First thought?????)

I heard from CES/ STF today, via snail mail.

Not much was revealed, except to say that John S. is now president;

Gary T. is vice-president; Dan G. is treasuer; Karen T. is secretary;

and Mark G, and Tom R., are still on the BOD.

The letter that I got admitted that there have been *hard times*,

folks are hurting, harsh words said, and prayers are still requested.

I'm not gonna *quote* any of this letter here, because it is vague enough, ...

Oh, but they still sound "so not jellin'."

If I offer something up to the sky-god on their behalf, my prayer for them would be for JS to break the mold, and candidly open up in this forum.

Discuss on what is going on (understandably with a certain restraint in view of all the lawyers

sharpening their knives). This kind of candor would be a refreshing step, and would no doubt be significant to Cethians coming here for their news and information.

I heard John's a decent guy.

Danny

Be like Jesus, and communicate to us losers and lowlifes at the Cafe here.

[dmiller]

WWJCW -- Who Would Jesus Communicate With?

[TheInvisibleDan]

Exactly.

[dmiller]

Oh, but they still sound "so not jellin'."

Hey Dan -- sorry -- didn't mean to sound facetious.

I hear ya about that statement you made.

That's why I'll be getting hold of (either) Jal, or John. S.,

and get info from the source.

For what it is worth -- (imo) John S. is best with books, not orgs.

[TheInvisibleDan]

Hey Dan -- sorry -- didn't mean to sound facetious.

I hear ya about that statement you made.

That's why I'll be getting hold of (either) Jal, or John. S.,

and get info from the source.

For what it is worth -- (imo) John S. is best with books, not orgs.

DMiller,

You didn't come across as facetious to me at all.

As for "Jellin'", I had in mind for whatever reason those goofy, amusing "innersole" commercials.

[excathedra]

to cause this crowd here to salivate over it

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

[satori001]

CES, leading us to salivation... Feel the love, people. They must be legit because Martindale wouldn't even spit in our direction.

dmiller, thanks for sharing.

[Oakspear]

I'm not gonna *quote* any of this letter here, because it is vague enough,

to cause this crowd here to salivate over it, and denigrate words.

Gee, thanks for the vote of confidence

[dmiller]

I called CES/STF today.

Who answered the phone?? Jeff USAF RET (Jeff --- the Supply Guy). :)

I had some questions to ask, and got lot's of answers.

With his permission -- I can tell you the following:

Dan G., Mat, and Jeff are back at the office working there again.

John Schoenheit will be the president until the next election.

Sadly -- the lawsuits are going forward.

John S. and JAL are willing to talk to anyone.

So if you have any questions -- ask. :)

This might seem *sketchy* (as far as a *report* goes),

but because of the lawsuit in progress, I can't say any more.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

John S. and JAL are willing to talk to anyone.

So if you have any questions -- ask. :)

As long as it's not on this forum...

[Sudo]

Groucho,

Yeah... they don't seem to want to post here do they?? Aw.. they probably don't have to though do they?? They'll keep getting the "believers" tithes and offerings no matter what is posted here.

sudo

[dmiller]

As long as it's not on this forum...

For what it's worth --

I've heard from Dan G., John S., JAL, AND Mark G. ---

all in the last week, because I e-mailed them, and asked questions.

Meebe thou should go and do likewise??

:)

(Just a thot!!!)

[1broken1]

For what it's worth --

I've heard from Dan G., John S., JAL, AND Mark G. ---

all in the last week, because I e-mailed them, and asked questions.

I have had the same experience - haven't tried all of the above but got the two I tried and had very open discussion. Also spoke with several other friends who have called them (all) to hear the accounts first hand.

[dmiller]

I have had the same experience - haven't tried all of the above but got the two I tried and had very open discussion. Also spoke with several other friends who have called them (all) to hear the accounts first hand.

Thank you 1 broken 1.

Now meebe this BS about "not willing to communicate",

can be laid to rest.

I never did expect an answer from Mark from my letter to him -- but he sent me one.

Tonight, and in detail about his side of the story.

If anyone wants to p!$$ and moan about a lack of response ---

take it to e-mail to those CES folks involved. You'll get answers.

If you don't --- You probably won't.

But maybe you don't really care either ----

Perhaps negative posting is your style,

without finding out the facts.

Again -- I'm not defending, or denigrating. Just stating rhe obvious here.

Edited February 14, 2007 by dmiller

[Oakspear]

Thank you 1 broken 1.

Now meebe this BS about "not willing to communicate",

can be laid to rest.

Maybe the "bs", as you put it in large font, comes out of the drive-by posting style of some of those affiliated with the group formerly known as CES. I've only cared enough to contact anyone in that organization personally less than a handful of times, and received a response each time, although not one that I thought made much sense; still, a response was given. But if an individual or a group doesn't want to engage in discussion on an open forum, don't publically post some monologue then refuse to discuss it publically.

[TheInvisibleDan]

Maybe the "bs", as you put it in large font, comes out of the drive-by posting style of some of those affiliated with the group formerly known as CES. I've only cared enough to contact anyone in that organization personally less than a handful of times, and received a response each time, although not one that I thought made much sense; still, a response was given. But if an individual or a group doesn't want to engage in discussion on an open forum, don't publically post some monologue then refuse to discuss it publically.

I agree, Oak.

I'm guessing this public forum to them is beyond their "space" and "comfort zone".

[doojable]

Just wondering - and NO, I haven't read the whole thread; why does anyone NOT in CES want an explanation from any of these yahoos errrr - people?

I mean, come on, do you really care? And even IF they came here and posted - would you even believe them? While it would be a whole lot of fun to take the fight to the next level, most of the folks here don't even have a dog in this fight.

(Right now I'd rather figure out how I can get "dog" and "jack" together in a metaphor.)

Edited February 16, 2007 by doojable

[Estimated Prophet]

I agree, Oak.

I'm guessing this public forum to them is beyond their "space" and "comfort zone".

I respectfully disagree.

Who made the rule that CES leadership should post their opinions here

and engage in the dialogue?

I don't believe that's comiing from our Lord Jesus.

I will even say that Christian Educational Services

freed me from the yoke of having to live up to other people's expectations,

and all those man-made rules and reg's.

So if it bothers you that JL or MG or JS aren't here every day like some of us

just let it go.

Its very liberating.

and if you really want their point of view

just call or write them.

Peace

[TheInvisibleDan]

If you genuinely feel that way, then what "rule" or "yoke" compels you to post here, Mr. Prophet?

Or is it "Jesus" moving you to do so?

And I might add (to your credit), you don't appear to be having much of a problem engaging in discussions here.

Perhaps someday, leaders of the present Way International might also overcome their fear of

posting in a public forum. It's not so bad as they might think.

Danny

P.S. -I might also add, that Jesus didn't seem to have a problem openly debating and disputing with the scribes, lawyers

and pharisees - before all the crowds - through the open "forums" of His day.

Edited February 16, 2007 by TheInvisibleDan

[TrustAndObey]

....

I will even say that Christian Educational Services freed me from ....

You know what is really sad? People actually believe this.. I'm not saying you do EP, but I'd sure beware. That some man made ministry ran and overseen by fallible humans is what actually freed them.. And so to many, that must mean God is working in this fleshly endeavor so I can put my believing, faith, and trust in it..

What a load of man made ^%$@#&^#

No wonder people let themselves be led so blindly. They replace what really helped, saved, and freed them with something that has just a small resemblance of godliness. And soon the blinders go on until the next thing you know, they are following man rather than God..

How hard is it to understand that God has chosen the base things and the foolishness of this world to lead men back to him?! And hard is it to understand that we don't follow those base and foolish things but only our Lord and Savior and His God. Praise God he was able to use such things to free you, but that really doesn't lend any credance to how godly the man made organization is, any more than all the other man made orginisations that help people to know their Lord and Savior every day while behind the scenes they put in bondage, molest the weak, murder the wise, and kill the innocent.

[WordWolf]

Well, since you asked.....

[WordWolf in brackets and boldface as usual.]

I respectfully disagree.

[You have a right to do so.]

Who made the rule that CES leadership should post their opinions here

and engage in the dialogue?

[With respect, brother, you're asking the wrong question.

Here's a little background.

Some people came out of twi, where open discussion was forbidden.

Some of them-who formed ces/stfi- began with open discussions,

and a public messageboard online.

Then they shut down the public messageboard online.

No more open discussion.

The question is "Why has open, public discussion become forbidden

in ces/stfi like it was/is in twi?"

They are free to run their OWN board and moderate their OWN discussions

like they did BEFORE. The reason the discussions ended up HERE is the same

reason twi discussions ended up here- by DEFAULT. They refused to do so,

and there remained a perceived need for open discussion.

(You may not perceive a need for open discussion. I perceive one,

and consider it a necessary part of healthy organizations-

if any organization can be considered 'healthy'.)

So, no one said there is a RULE that ces/stfi need have open discussions

ANYWHERE. However, their refusal to do so raises some interesting questions.

This is no guarantee of wrongdoing or malfeasance, but these are things

that make some people go "Hmmmm...."

There is neither a rule that they must dialogue HERE even if nowhere else.

However, they seem to have no difficulty playing with, and finessing the

concept. JAL made a press release for posting here, wrote in it

"this is not for posting online", insulted the people who post here,

and had the nerve to pretend to be surprised that it ended up here.

You may consider it "plausible deniability", but I call it "thinly-veiled hypocrisy."

If the "thin veil" fooled you and convinced you he really didn't write it

EXPECTING IT to end up here, that's on you. I suspect you possess more wit

than that. At the same time, the notice IN the internet press release that he

wasn't going to communicate by internet is hypocrisy- going out by internet

as intended. He communicates by internet in the fashion that suits him-

by press release- and NOT in the manner that would encourage open communication-

by messageboard dialogue. At the same time, he says he's not communicating

by internet in any form. Those are 2 things people complain about.]

I don't believe that's comiing from our Lord Jesus.

[i don't need revelation or a precise Bible verse to know when someone's

blowing smoke up my sit-upon.

Jesus warned against those who liked the chief seats.

Paul warned against those who set themselves up as lords over God's heritage.

Further,

I'd go out on a limb and say that-if Jesus was walking around here now, he'd be

using the internet as well. He dialogued with people openly all the time.

On the other hand,

squelching discussion, sitting on news,

I for one don't believe THAT comes from our Lord Jesus, either. ]

I will even say that Christian Educational Services

freed me from the yoke of having to live up to other people's expectations,

and all those man-made rules and reg's.

[That's wonderful.

And I learned some good stuff in twi.

Which did nothing to excuse them from ruining the lives of others.

So, how many "success stories" does it take to excuse the lives

ruined because some people were railroaded into Momentus,

or someone leaned on them with "personal prophecy", public ridicule

USING "personal prophecy", or both?

Please note that I consider this a trick question.

I don't consider ANY number of personal anecdotes of "success stories"

to excuse those who call themselves leaders from ruining lives of

ANY of the people they ACCEPTED RESPONSIBILITY FOR.

However, if you think differently, feel free to tell me how many lives

can be exchanged for how many lives.]

So if it bothers you that JL or MG or JS aren't here every day like some of us

just let it go.

[That's misrepresentative of our positions. Few, if any, expect any of them to

be here regularly. I certainly don't.]

Its very liberating.

[Most of us who are counselling caution are quite liberated, thank you for the

concern. We don't lose sleep or get hypertension over where any of them

post or don't post, for that matter.]

and if you really want their point of view

just call or write them.

[Which is a LOT better than a vacuum of communication.

However, it falls FAR short of OPEN COMMUNICATION-

which was one of our main complaints from the beginning.

And at least one person tried that-using their legal name-and got no response.

Which means there's no guarantee that will work.]

Peace

[i'm all for peace. I can get behind that.

I'm not that keen about "let's pretend there's no problems and we'll pretend that's

peace". If that's something you mean, then I can't get behind it.]

[WordWolf]

Maybe the "bs", as you put it in large font, comes out of the drive-by posting style of some of those affiliated with the group formerly known as CES. I've only cared enough to contact anyone in that organization personally less than a handful of times, and received a response each time, although not one that I thought made much sense; still, a response was given. But if an individual or a group doesn't want to engage in discussion on an open forum, don't publically post some monologue then refuse to discuss it publically.

Bingo.

And don't insult my intelligence by thinking I can't see that one.

[Oakspear]

I respectfully disagree.

Thanks for keeping it civil

Who made the rule that CES leadership should post their opinions here

and engage in the dialogue?

No rule, bro' (or sis, whatever) - but periodically someone posts a "letter from John Lynn" or some "new, exciting" research from CES and then disappears. If you're gonna put stuff up on our board, stick around to discuss it. That's my opinion, not a rule.

I don't believe that's comiing from our Lord Jesus.

Well, he's not my Lord anyway. But seriously, what does Jesus have to do with whether someone should discuss what they put up on a discussion forum?

So if it bothers you that JL or MG or JS aren't here every day like some of us

just let it go.

Its very liberating.

Nope, doesn't bother me, but I do have an opinion about it.

and if you really want their point of view

just call or write them.

Peace

Done that, but thanks

[Linda Z]

Oakspear said:

If you're gonna put stuff up on our board, stick around to discuss it. That's my opinion, not a rule.

I agree. Here's how I see it: Some people were po'd at MG and KAG (it sounds to an outsider like they were justified in their anger), and they used GreaseSpot Cafe as a handy place to stage a coup. They effectively got rid of MG and KAG, but CES lives on, complete with its personal prophecy doctrine and (according to eyewitness accounts) its continued promotion of crap like Momentus.

So IMO, nothing has been exposed. One regime has been toppled and another has gained supremacy. Woo woo. It was nice of Paw, I suppose, to let the coup's leaders make GS a bully pulpit for their cause. I just wonder what was accomplished, other than someone getting his job back and someone else getting the boot. Happens in corporate America daily, without our help.