Thank you Rocky for the grammar lesson. I'm glad somebody took me seriously last week when I brought it up. If anybody gets his nose out of joint when Rocky, or some other knowledgeable person corrects your grammar, please remember it's not against you, but some of us need to improve, and a couple of us requested help, so please don't take it personally because that's not the way it is intended.
Thanks Rocky.
rock on
No problem, Krys... I know we all commit typos (I know I do), so all I'm doing in a situation like that is to verify that my understanding of the post is what the poster intended to mean. :)
are you saying a wife doesn't have a right to say no, and that a husband can take sex whenever he wants it, regardless of how the wife feels? I hope I raise my daughter to be the kind of woman who won't put up with that crap and will show the guy the door if he shows so little disregard for her.
if liability results from the knowledge that it could happen, then girls and women should go out in public at all, because if they get raped it's their own fault. rape happens, and they should know better. is that what you're saying?
drinking and drugs aren't a prerequisite for risk in public gatherings. you might not drink any alcohol, but you could still get slipped a mickey in straight up coke and find yourself in the hospital after being raped.
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying if women who want to get back at their husbands (and the courts have such cases) because they never gave to their husbands the opportunity to have marital relations with them then the woman is using something that is not a thing to play with. I never once said or implied that a woman did not have the free will to tell her husband no. I did state a wife claiming rape because she doesn't want to consent to sex with her husband doesn't sit well.
How is going out in public putting yourself in an inappropriate place?
I believe I mentioned something about date rape which I thought covered having something put into anything you could be drinking.
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying if women who want to get back at their husbands (and the courts have such cases) because they never gave to their husbands the opportunity to have marital relations with them then the woman is using something that is not a thing to play with. I never once said or implied that a woman did not have the free will to tell her husband no. I did state a wife claiming rape because she doesn't want to consent to sex with her husband doesn't sit well.
claiming someone raped you when they didn't is lying... I guess I just don't see the connection about the woman not wanting to have sex with her husband as having anything to do with it, really. whether she wants to have sex or not has nothing to do with lying about being raped. I think it's more likely for woman to have sex with her husband and then accuse him of rape out of revenge than it is for a woman to withhold sex then accuse rape.
How is going out in public putting yourself in an inappropriate place?
because you're going out there where rapists have access to you. it's extreme, yes, but I resent the implication that women are at fault when they're raped because they gave the rapist opportunity. opportunity isn't that hard to come by. walking home from work, stopping at a light late at night, coming in your house, stopping at the store on the way home from school.
I believe I mentioned something about date rape which I thought covered having something put into anything you could be drinking.
yeah, you did, but I wasn't talking about date rape. this beyond date rape, strangers are doing it to random girls at parties, which seems to fall more under your opinion:
"Putting yourself in a situation where you know there is a chance of being forced sexually is liable on the one being taken advantage of to some degree."
"Doing drugs and drinking in situations that are inappropriate places some liability on the one taken advantage of also."
this seems to imply that because we all know predators are doing this, girls are at fault for getting raped because they were at the party, and doubly so if they were drinking or using drugs.
I don't think most women "withhold sex" from their husband for revenge. They may withhold sex because their husband has treated them badly, and thus they are not in the mood. They may withhold sex because they are exhausted from taking care of kids and home. They may withhold sex because the relationship is in trouble and they are not feeling romantically inclined. They may withhold sex for hundreds of other reasons, which I think may very well be valid. Women and men view sex very differently - and they are aroused by different things.
Are there women who withhold sex for revenge? probably. But even that doesn't justify rape.
Likewise, no, means no, means no - even if you are falling down drunk and half naked in a man's bedroom. That being said, one does hold some responsibility for their actions and it would be very very foolish to put yourself in such a situation. I'm not saying such a woman gets what she deserves, but she certainly wasn't very wise either.
I think it really has to be looked at on a case by case basis.
For example:
With a 15 year old - What could be considered "consensual" for one girl could be considered "rape" for another girl, depending on the maturity level and circumstances.
I think it's impossible to make blanket decisions, but some situations are obviously rape whereas others are in a more "gray" area.
Belle, you should have been a lawyer. You could then define "consensual", "maturity" and appropriate "circumstances". As for being 14,15,or 16 she might have a problem with the truth? Maybe it's not even a "she"? Let just hope they have some fun under the blanket before they wake up!
Belle, you should have been a lawyer. You could then define "consensual", "maturity" and appropriate "circumstances". As for being 14,15,or 16 she might have a problem with the truth? Maybe it's not even a "she"? Let just hope they have some fun under the blanket before they wake up!
I forgot, the legal defense could be...that "gray area"!
claiming someone raped you when they didn't is lying... I guess I just don't see the connection about the woman not wanting to have sex with her husband as having anything to do with it, really. whether she wants to have sex or not has nothing to do with lying about being raped. I think it's more likely for woman to have sex with her husband and then accuse him of rape out of revenge than it is for a woman to withhold sex then accuse rape.
Exactly! Claiming you were raped by your husband because you chose to torture the man is lying and also hurts those of us who have been raped. It is difficult enough in this day and time for a woman who is legitimately raped not having outsiders (which includes lawyers/prosecutors/etc) imply you asked for it. Crying rape is not something to use to get revenge, yet there are cases where women have ruined their husband’s lives because they used it against them. Divorce the man if you never want to have sex with him.
because you're going out there where rapists have access to you. it's extreme, yes, but I resent the implication that women are at fault when they're raped because they gave the rapist opportunity. opportunity isn't that hard to come by. walking home from work, stopping at a light late at night, coming in your house, stopping at the store on the way home from school.
Resent it all you wish but it is not applicable to my words here.
Apparently your and my definition of inappropriate places is quite different. I never said going out in public or even going to a party at someone's house where there will be more than you and the individual that invited you was inappropriate. But we do have cases well publicized where a woman was invited to a hot shot athletes hotel room for drinks (just the two of them) and when the girl drank with the man and he did rape her she held some responsibility because she put herself in a position she should not have. Certainly she did not think she was being invited to his hotel room equipped with a bed to play bingo with him. Again this just buries the women that never put themselves in that type of situation, instead they were walking from their car to the grocery store and were pulled into a mans van and raped in an even more horrible place because they have to live with the females that should have known better than to go to that hotel room in the first place.
Does it mean that the girl willingly going to the hotel room was not raped? No! But it gives her some of the liability for it.
yeah, you did, but I wasn't talking about date rape. this beyond date rape, strangers are doing it to random girls at parties, which seems to fall more under your opinion:
"Putting yourself in a situation where you know there is a chance of being forced sexually is liable on the one being taken advantage of to some degree."
"Doing drugs and drinking in situations that are inappropriate places some liability on the one taken advantage of also."
this seems to imply that because we all know predators are doing this, girls are at fault for getting raped because they were at the party, and doubly so if they were drinking or using drugs.
I think the above two replies of mine cover this, if not please let me know.
I don't think most women "withhold sex" from their husband for revenge. They may withhold sex because their husband has treated them badly, and thus they are not in the mood. They may withhold sex because they are exhausted from taking care of kids and home. They may withhold sex because the relationship is in trouble and they are not feeling romantically inclined. They may withhold sex for hundreds of other reasons, which I think may very well be valid. Women and men view sex very differently - and they are aroused by different things.
Are there women who withhold sex for revenge? probably. But even that doesn't justify rape.
Likewise, no, means no, means no - even if you are falling down drunk and half naked in a man's bedroom. That being said, one does hold some responsibility for their actions and it would be very very foolish to put yourself in such a situation. I'm not saying such a woman gets what she deserves, but she certainly wasn't very wise either.
A woman has the right to say no. A wife who never allows her husband to release with her sexually should divorce him. Why torture the man. I was speaking specifically about never Abi, not just sometimes, you are correct that a woman has every right not to say yes every time. Just like the man has the right to do the same back.
Exactly! Claiming you were raped by your husband because you chose to torture the man is lying and also hurts those of us who have been raped. It is difficult enough in this day and time for a woman who is legitimately raped not having outsiders (which includes lawyers/prosecutors/etc) imply you asked for it. Crying rape is not something to use to get revenge, yet there are cases where women have ruined their husband’s lives because they used it against them. Divorce the man if you never want to have sex with him.
I guess I still don't see the connection between crying rape and withholding sex. they seem to be 2 different issues but you've got them connected, where the actual issue seems to be accusing a man of rape who did not commit rape. I'm just completely confused as to what point you're trying to make about women who don't want to have sex with their husbands.
Does it mean that the girl willingly going to the hotel room was not raped? No! But it gives her some of the liability for it.
I think the above two replies of mine cover this, if not please let me know.
A woman has the right to say no.
this does clarify your position, yes. I guess I don't think a girl who gets raped after spending time alone with a man should be held liable. if a man asks you to his hotel room, why should it not be for a drink? I'm talking legally here, and not practically, obviously, but you're saying that a woman should assume ever man is a rapist, and maybe to protect ourselves we should. some men are actually honest and if they say drink and talk they mean it. the ones who don't should just hire a prostitute instead of tricking a girl into spending time with him so he can have sex with her whether she wants to or not.
A wife who never allows her husband to release with her sexually should divorce him. Why torture the man. I was speaking specifically about never Abi, not just sometimes, you are correct that a woman has every right not to say yes every time. Just like the man has the right to do the same back.
if it's a matter of her disregarding him as a person to that extent, maybe HE should divorce HER. at the end of my marriage, I wouldn't let me ex "release with me sexually" because I don't like being used as something to masturbate with, so yeah, in that case the woman should just divorce him and be done with the mess is he's too disgusting to physically love. I stll just don't see what this has to do with rape.
I don't think most women "withhold sex" from their husband for revenge.
You mean no women (or few anyway) think in terms of manipulation and control using sex as leverage? I SERIOUSLY doubt that... obviously, my research has been limited, but I'd bet there are few who do NOT think in those terms, at least some of the time. I know, how cynical of me. I do agree however, that's still no justification for rape.
Women and men view sex very differently - and they are aroused by different things.
Perhaps the understatement of the year... but not necessarily related to a discussion of rape, which is an act of violence.
First a big cheer for Chatty and her bravery for posting some very unpopular points!
No does mean no, but is there a point of no return where once crossed, no by itself is not enough? Like a man and woman in bed, nude and right at the moment of penetration the woman says "no", could that be just a little past the "no" stage? Don't laugh as there are rape cases like this, and the only "forcing" was penetration.
Then there is the ridiculous over complicating of laws and definitions that confuse the matter. I would think things should be held to some simple tests, like was the woman forced against her will? That would be rape, or how about was the woman placed in a situation she had no choice (even if it an emotional no choice) to perform or else? A woman drinks to much and isn't smart enough to have teamed up with a trust worthy friend has crossed lines she never should of. The slipping of a date rape drug should be treated equal to forced rape.
And "babe" teachers having sex with students should get the same treatment as my high school swimming coach got. He was caught, it wasn't talked about much and he was sent off for 3 to 5, the girl was 17 and a few months short of 18.
How about tossing in some prostitution clauses for women that use "it" to get what they want? Be it from their husband or any other man?
Rape is a horrible thing, but this society has long blurred the lines between what really is rape and making it simple for a man to have his life destroyed because the woman didn't "gain" what she wanted to get by using her body so sex becomes rape because she decides to lie and claim she said no.
I guess I still don't see the connection between crying rape and withholding sex. they seem to be 2 different issues but you've got them connected, where the actual issue seems to be accusing a man of rape who did not commit rape. I'm just completely confused as to what point you're trying to make about women who don't want to have sex with their husbands.
It was an example of what does not sit well with me in regards to a woman crying rape. There are cases where the woman withheld sexual relations not once but on a continual base torturing their husbands for whatever reason they did it for only to find themselves being taken against their wills and then using that as a rape case to nail their husbands to the wall. If you do not want to ever have sex with your husband then move out, why torture the man. And I mean never. Not sometimes.
this does clarify your position, yes. I guess I don't think a girl who gets raped after spending time alone with a man should be held liable. if a man asks you to his hotel room, why should it not be for a drink? I'm talking legally here, and not practically, obviously, but you're saying that a woman should assume ever man is a rapist, and maybe to protect ourselves we should. some men are actually honest and if they say drink and talk they mean it. the ones who don't should just hire a prostitute instead of tricking a girl into spending time with him so he can have sex with her whether she wants to or not.
They serve drinks in the lounge of the hotel. Why wouldn't you insist a man that you do not know well have a drink in a safe place?
Of course some men are honest. But of the ones that invited a woman into their bedded hotel room for a drink only to rape her after giving her something to drink I doubt you will fine one honest man among them.
if it's a matter of her disregarding him as a person to that extent, maybe HE should divorce HER. at the end of my marriage, I wouldn't let me ex "release with me sexually" because I don't like being used as something to masturbate with, so yeah, in that case the woman should just divorce him and be done with the mess is he's too disgusting to physically love. I stll just don't see what this has to do with rape.
Then I do not know what to offer you.
Ductape, I posted before I saw you because I left the screen, I will read you now.
No does mean no, but is there a point of no return where once crossed, no by itself is not enough? Like a man and woman in bed, nude and right at the moment of penetration the woman says "no", could that be just a little past the "no" stage? Don't laugh as there are rape cases like this, and the only "forcing" was penetration.
that sounds like rape... surely we can't allow the man the option to change his mind at the last minute ("oh, this is a bad idea, let's put this off") but deny a woman the same right to control her own body? I'm not laughing at all, because there is always a "no" stage, even during the act.
It was an example of what does not sit well with me in regards to a woman crying rape. There are cases where the woman withheld sexual relations not once but on a continual base torturing their husbands for whatever reason they did it for only to find themselves being taken against their wills and then using that as a rape case to nail their husbands to the wall.
uuuuuhhhh... ChattyKathy, you are describing rape, not just a woman crying rape.
if my ex had raped me once I decided I wasn't going to have sex with him ever again, I would have nailed him to the wall. a man just doesn't get to take what he wants, there is no excuse for that. if he needs sex, don't rape the most convenient woman, and don't stay either. divorce is an option for the man, but somehow you're saying the woman is responsible for getting raped by her husband because she didn't divorce him.
First a big cheer for Chatty and her bravery for posting some very unpopular points!
I appreciate that. Never did I think I would be defending myself on this subject to this extent. And you would have to understand my past to fully appreciate that. Thank you again.
No does mean no, but is there a point of no return where once crossed, no by itself is not enough? Like a man and woman in bed, nude and right at the moment of penetration the woman says "no", could that be just a little past the "no" stage? Don't laugh as there are rape cases like this, and the only "forcing" was penetration.
I would agree with you on that. I know there have been women who set themselves up. Rape is never right but if the woman plays with fire like that then you are going to get burned. Rape is not a convenient plea because you put yourself in a wrong situation.
Then there is the ridiculous over complicating of laws and definitions that confuse the matter. I would think things should be held to some simple tests, like was the woman forced against her will? That would be rape, or how about was the woman placed in a situation she had no choice (even if it an emotional no choice) to perform or else? A woman drinks to much and isn't smart enough to have teamed up with a trust worthy friend has crossed lines she never should of. The slipping of a date rape drug should be treated equal to forced rape.
If I know I have a drug or drinking problem that renders me unable to protect myself in a isolated situation then I best not willingly walk into that situation. I have some liability there because I knew I wasn't capable of seeing the danger signs once I willingly walked into the situation. And yes it is still rape but it makes it unwise on the woman's part and there is some liability. This is not being forced into that isolated place.
And "babe" teachers having sex with students should get the same treatment as my high school swimming coach got. He was caught, it wasn't talked about much and he was sent off for 3 to 5, the girl was 17 and a few months short of 18.
The teacher should be nailed to the wall.
How about tossing in some prostitution clauses for women that use "it" to get what they want? Be it from their husband or any other man?
A pro gives up her rights when she takes money for sex. She put herself in harms way every single time she closes that door behind her and him.
Rape is a horrible thing, but this society has long blurred the lines between what really is rape and making it simple for a man to have his life destroyed because the woman didn't "gain" what she wanted to get by using her body so sex becomes rape because she decides to lie and claim she said no.
And it happens all the time, thus making it even more difficult on us who were raped and did not invite it.
that sounds like rape... surely we can't allow the man the option to change his mind at the last minute ("oh, this is a bad idea, let's put this off") but deny a woman the same right to control her own body? I'm not laughing at all, because there is always a "no" stage, even during the act.
uuuuuhhhh... ChattyKathy, you are describing rape, not just a woman crying rape.
if my ex had raped me once I decided I wasn't going to have sex with him ever again, I would have nailed him to the wall. a man just doesn't get to take what he wants, there is no excuse for that. if he needs sex, don't rape the most convenient woman, and don't stay either. divorce is an option for the man, but somehow you're saying the woman is responsible for getting raped by her husband because she didn't divorce him.
I think we are trying to squeeze too many variations into one definition.
I agree with Rocky that rape is a crime of violence. It just so happens that it also involves sex.
There are many other reprehensible sexual behaviours that don't involve violence.
Does this excuse them? Of course not. It just means that there needs to be a more concise definition of what is actually meant by the term"rape". I've known a few people who were raped in the violent sense. I've also known people who were sexually abused without the violent, control element present in rape. Regardless, the results can be equally damaging and long lasting.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a difference in the mentality of a crime that has violence at its core and one that has sexual deviation at its core. That is a distinction that I feel plays an important role in addressing a solution to a myriad of interrelated and serious problems.
Just my opinion.
And one more thing--------It takes a lot of guts for people to have to use their own experiences to drive home a point in a public forum. I applaud them for being willing to do so. That can't be easy.
It was an example of what does not sit well with me in regards to a woman crying rape. There are cases where the woman withheld sexual relations not once but on a continual base
Sorry Chatty but A woman has a right to do this
torturing their husbands for whatever reason they did it for
Maybe because he was cheating, didn't ever bathe, was of the slam bam TYM, school of thought
only to find themselves being taken against their wills
That is rape if I ever heard it
and then using that as a rape case to nail their husbands to the wall.
When you come home drunk smelling of another woman's perfume for the umpteenth time in as many months and the wife says "No' for the umpteenth time, and you backhand said wife until she is semi conscious, and then RAPE her until she is bleeding--
The wall is not nearly far enough
If you do not want to ever have sex with your husband then move out, why torture the man. And I mean never. Not sometimes.
Presumes that sex is the basis or a large part of the marriage--Surprise surprise there are Thousand--perhaps millions of marriages that don't have the sexual component
I guess I do not understand why you would marry a man and not intend to give him due benevolence. If that was the agreement up front before you married the person then neither the man or the woman should expect to be treated with that privilege. But in my book of understanding a marriage consists of the man and wife taking care of each other in light of the fact it is a natural and healthy expectation in a marriage.
And if a woman uses withheld sex to pay back, get revenge, whatever then she is flat out wrong!
As to the examples you used of course...who wants to be slobbered all over and bedded because the man or woman got hot with someone else. And that is bigger than sexual relations as well.
Kathy----- I wasn't trying to single out any one person. It's a very serious topic and highly misunderstood by far too many people. I agree that when the accuasation is used falsely it damages the credibility of those who desperately need to be heard.
Just saw Temple Ladys' post and she said"Forced sex is rape." She also gave an example of the violent component. Misunderstanding this element of physical violence is maybe what seperates rape from other equally heinous sex crimes and unacceptabl sexual behaviours.
Lots of viewpoints here. That's what keeps the dialog interesting and educational.
I will admit that I have agreed with some of each post and all of other posts here, even the ones I disputed to some degree. My concern being voiced is the notion that is just around the corner that a woman would never be responsible for being raped in any degree. That is not correct in my opinion. You can place yourself in harms way and then why should the man be fully blamed?
I will admit that I have agreed with some of each post and all of other posts here, even the ones I disputed to some degree. My concern being voiced is the notion that is just around the corner that a woman would never be responsible for being raped in any degree. That is not correct in my opinion. You can place yourself in harms way and then why should the man be fully blamed?
Great points!
Sure I agree that forced, physical violent sex is rape. But why wouldn't a woman tell her man to take a bath then he can "have her"?
For that matter what about the woman that has sex with any man but her husband? Sorry that's not what the thread is about, my bad
Sure I agree that forced, physical violent sex is rape. But why wouldn't a woman tell her man to take a bath then he can "have her"?
For that matter what about the woman that has sex with any man but her husband? Sorry that's not what the thread is about, my bad
I don't think it would be as simple as get a bath though. A slobbery drunken couldn't find your lips if they were 25" across can bath until his skin falls off and he's still disgusting. But I imagine there could be times when it might be that simple yes.
I still can't understand going into a marriage if you do not intend to have the pleasures of it, but I guess whatever floats your boat.
And on that off topic thing you probably would have had at least one rebuttal saying the men do the same.
becaue the man has a choice about forcing sex on someone. he can keep his pants zipped. he can leave. no one is forcing him to rape.
And a woman can keep herself out of harms way also.
But in my book of understanding a marriage consists of the man and wife taking care of each other in light of the fact it is a natural and healthy expectation in a marriage.
And if a woman uses withheld sex to pay back, get revenge, whatever then she is flat out wrong!
in a healthy marriage, both do take care of each other and sex is part of that. if a woman withholds sex, it's really not your place to judge her reasons about why. the man can leave if he doesn't like it. it's no longer legal for a man to force his wife to have sex with him (i.e. rape her).
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copenhagen
I was once slipped a mickey at a party.
I ended up trying to walk out of the place only to get in a car from some nice ladies
who offred me a ride home.
My next waking moment I was in an unfamiliar apt having one of the nice ladies taking off
my shirt.
Long story short I got out of there and made it home.
Was deathly sick for four days.
Lets here it for a strong tolerance for whisky and all the drugs in my youth.
On a serious note if I ever became Gov of a state I would visit every womens prsion.
Every one of those gals that had a restraining order against some guy or husband who beat or raped her.
Then ended up getting attacked again and the police could not help.(like a restraing order realy works)
Then these poor girls end up killing these sorry s.o.b and end up in prsion.
I WOULD PARDON THEM ALL..
Rape is a powerful tool men abuse women with. It is a control thing and has lasting emotional affects on
women. Women hve sex and an emotional attatchment men have sex because it feels good. No means no.
copenhagen
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Rocky
No problem, Krys... I know we all commit typos (I know I do), so all I'm doing in a situation like that is to verify that my understanding of the post is what the poster intended to mean. :)
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ChattyKathy
No that is not what I am saying. I am saying if women who want to get back at their husbands (and the courts have such cases) because they never gave to their husbands the opportunity to have marital relations with them then the woman is using something that is not a thing to play with. I never once said or implied that a woman did not have the free will to tell her husband no. I did state a wife claiming rape because she doesn't want to consent to sex with her husband doesn't sit well.
How is going out in public putting yourself in an inappropriate place?
I believe I mentioned something about date rape which I thought covered having something put into anything you could be drinking.
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Rocky
Excie... you know I never correct your grammar! (or need to guess at what you mean) ;)
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potato
claiming someone raped you when they didn't is lying... I guess I just don't see the connection about the woman not wanting to have sex with her husband as having anything to do with it, really. whether she wants to have sex or not has nothing to do with lying about being raped. I think it's more likely for woman to have sex with her husband and then accuse him of rape out of revenge than it is for a woman to withhold sex then accuse rape.
because you're going out there where rapists have access to you. it's extreme, yes, but I resent the implication that women are at fault when they're raped because they gave the rapist opportunity. opportunity isn't that hard to come by. walking home from work, stopping at a light late at night, coming in your house, stopping at the store on the way home from school.
yeah, you did, but I wasn't talking about date rape. this beyond date rape, strangers are doing it to random girls at parties, which seems to fall more under your opinion:
"Putting yourself in a situation where you know there is a chance of being forced sexually is liable on the one being taken advantage of to some degree."
"Doing drugs and drinking in situations that are inappropriate places some liability on the one taken advantage of also."
this seems to imply that because we all know predators are doing this, girls are at fault for getting raped because they were at the party, and doubly so if they were drinking or using drugs.
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Abigail
I don't think most women "withhold sex" from their husband for revenge. They may withhold sex because their husband has treated them badly, and thus they are not in the mood. They may withhold sex because they are exhausted from taking care of kids and home. They may withhold sex because the relationship is in trouble and they are not feeling romantically inclined. They may withhold sex for hundreds of other reasons, which I think may very well be valid. Women and men view sex very differently - and they are aroused by different things.
Are there women who withhold sex for revenge? probably. But even that doesn't justify rape.
Likewise, no, means no, means no - even if you are falling down drunk and half naked in a man's bedroom. That being said, one does hold some responsibility for their actions and it would be very very foolish to put yourself in such a situation. I'm not saying such a woman gets what she deserves, but she certainly wasn't very wise either.
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Bumpy
Belle, you should have been a lawyer. You could then define "consensual", "maturity" and appropriate "circumstances". As for being 14,15,or 16 she might have a problem with the truth? Maybe it's not even a "she"? Let just hope they have some fun under the blanket before they wake up!
I forgot, the legal defense could be...that "gray area"!
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ChattyKathy
Exactly! Claiming you were raped by your husband because you chose to torture the man is lying and also hurts those of us who have been raped. It is difficult enough in this day and time for a woman who is legitimately raped not having outsiders (which includes lawyers/prosecutors/etc) imply you asked for it. Crying rape is not something to use to get revenge, yet there are cases where women have ruined their husband’s lives because they used it against them. Divorce the man if you never want to have sex with him.
Resent it all you wish but it is not applicable to my words here.
Apparently your and my definition of inappropriate places is quite different. I never said going out in public or even going to a party at someone's house where there will be more than you and the individual that invited you was inappropriate. But we do have cases well publicized where a woman was invited to a hot shot athletes hotel room for drinks (just the two of them) and when the girl drank with the man and he did rape her she held some responsibility because she put herself in a position she should not have. Certainly she did not think she was being invited to his hotel room equipped with a bed to play bingo with him. Again this just buries the women that never put themselves in that type of situation, instead they were walking from their car to the grocery store and were pulled into a mans van and raped in an even more horrible place because they have to live with the females that should have known better than to go to that hotel room in the first place.
Does it mean that the girl willingly going to the hotel room was not raped? No! But it gives her some of the liability for it.
I think the above two replies of mine cover this, if not please let me know.
A woman has the right to say no. A wife who never allows her husband to release with her sexually should divorce him. Why torture the man. I was speaking specifically about never Abi, not just sometimes, you are correct that a woman has every right not to say yes every time. Just like the man has the right to do the same back.
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potato
I guess I still don't see the connection between crying rape and withholding sex. they seem to be 2 different issues but you've got them connected, where the actual issue seems to be accusing a man of rape who did not commit rape. I'm just completely confused as to what point you're trying to make about women who don't want to have sex with their husbands.
this does clarify your position, yes. I guess I don't think a girl who gets raped after spending time alone with a man should be held liable. if a man asks you to his hotel room, why should it not be for a drink? I'm talking legally here, and not practically, obviously, but you're saying that a woman should assume ever man is a rapist, and maybe to protect ourselves we should. some men are actually honest and if they say drink and talk they mean it. the ones who don't should just hire a prostitute instead of tricking a girl into spending time with him so he can have sex with her whether she wants to or not.
if it's a matter of her disregarding him as a person to that extent, maybe HE should divorce HER. at the end of my marriage, I wouldn't let me ex "release with me sexually" because I don't like being used as something to masturbate with, so yeah, in that case the woman should just divorce him and be done with the mess is he's too disgusting to physically love. I stll just don't see what this has to do with rape.Link to comment
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Rocky
You mean no women (or few anyway) think in terms of manipulation and control using sex as leverage? I SERIOUSLY doubt that... obviously, my research has been limited, but I'd bet there are few who do NOT think in those terms, at least some of the time. I know, how cynical of me. I do agree however, that's still no justification for rape.
Perhaps the understatement of the year... but not necessarily related to a discussion of rape, which is an act of violence.
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Ductape
First a big cheer for Chatty and her bravery for posting some very unpopular points!
No does mean no, but is there a point of no return where once crossed, no by itself is not enough? Like a man and woman in bed, nude and right at the moment of penetration the woman says "no", could that be just a little past the "no" stage? Don't laugh as there are rape cases like this, and the only "forcing" was penetration.
Then there is the ridiculous over complicating of laws and definitions that confuse the matter. I would think things should be held to some simple tests, like was the woman forced against her will? That would be rape, or how about was the woman placed in a situation she had no choice (even if it an emotional no choice) to perform or else? A woman drinks to much and isn't smart enough to have teamed up with a trust worthy friend has crossed lines she never should of. The slipping of a date rape drug should be treated equal to forced rape.
And "babe" teachers having sex with students should get the same treatment as my high school swimming coach got. He was caught, it wasn't talked about much and he was sent off for 3 to 5, the girl was 17 and a few months short of 18.
How about tossing in some prostitution clauses for women that use "it" to get what they want? Be it from their husband or any other man?
Rape is a horrible thing, but this society has long blurred the lines between what really is rape and making it simple for a man to have his life destroyed because the woman didn't "gain" what she wanted to get by using her body so sex becomes rape because she decides to lie and claim she said no.
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ChattyKathy
It was an example of what does not sit well with me in regards to a woman crying rape. There are cases where the woman withheld sexual relations not once but on a continual base torturing their husbands for whatever reason they did it for only to find themselves being taken against their wills and then using that as a rape case to nail their husbands to the wall. If you do not want to ever have sex with your husband then move out, why torture the man. And I mean never. Not sometimes.
They serve drinks in the lounge of the hotel. Why wouldn't you insist a man that you do not know well have a drink in a safe place?
Of course some men are honest. But of the ones that invited a woman into their bedded hotel room for a drink only to rape her after giving her something to drink I doubt you will fine one honest man among them.
Then I do not know what to offer you.
Ductape, I posted before I saw you because I left the screen, I will read you now.
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potato
that sounds like rape... surely we can't allow the man the option to change his mind at the last minute ("oh, this is a bad idea, let's put this off") but deny a woman the same right to control her own body? I'm not laughing at all, because there is always a "no" stage, even during the act.
uuuuuhhhh... ChattyKathy, you are describing rape, not just a woman crying rape.
if my ex had raped me once I decided I wasn't going to have sex with him ever again, I would have nailed him to the wall. a man just doesn't get to take what he wants, there is no excuse for that. if he needs sex, don't rape the most convenient woman, and don't stay either. divorce is an option for the man, but somehow you're saying the woman is responsible for getting raped by her husband because she didn't divorce him.
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ChattyKathy
I appreciate that. Never did I think I would be defending myself on this subject to this extent. And you would have to understand my past to fully appreciate that. Thank you again.
I would agree with you on that. I know there have been women who set themselves up. Rape is never right but if the woman plays with fire like that then you are going to get burned. Rape is not a convenient plea because you put yourself in a wrong situation.
If I know I have a drug or drinking problem that renders me unable to protect myself in a isolated situation then I best not willingly walk into that situation. I have some liability there because I knew I wasn't capable of seeing the danger signs once I willingly walked into the situation. And yes it is still rape but it makes it unwise on the woman's part and there is some liability. This is not being forced into that isolated place.
The teacher should be nailed to the wall.
A pro gives up her rights when she takes money for sex. She put herself in harms way every single time she closes that door behind her and him.
And it happens all the time, thus making it even more difficult on us who were raped and did not invite it.
I give up!
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waysider
I think we are trying to squeeze too many variations into one definition.
I agree with Rocky that rape is a crime of violence. It just so happens that it also involves sex.
There are many other reprehensible sexual behaviours that don't involve violence.
Does this excuse them? Of course not. It just means that there needs to be a more concise definition of what is actually meant by the term"rape". I've known a few people who were raped in the violent sense. I've also known people who were sexually abused without the violent, control element present in rape. Regardless, the results can be equally damaging and long lasting.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there is a difference in the mentality of a crime that has violence at its core and one that has sexual deviation at its core. That is a distinction that I feel plays an important role in addressing a solution to a myriad of interrelated and serious problems.
Just my opinion.
And one more thing--------It takes a lot of guts for people to have to use their own experiences to drive home a point in a public forum. I applaud them for being willing to do so. That can't be easy.
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ChattyKathy
waysider,
I don't know if you are referring to me but if you are I love you for it. Thank you.
And you brought up very good points. Intent is what percentage of a crime do they say?
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templelady
**TL heading where angels fear to tread***
Sorry Chatty but A woman has a right to do thisMaybe because he was cheating, didn't ever bathe, was of the slam bam TYM, school of thought
That is rape if I ever heard itWhen you come home drunk smelling of another woman's perfume for the umpteenth time in as many months and the wife says "No' for the umpteenth time, and you backhand said wife until she is semi conscious, and then RAPE her until she is bleeding--
The wall is not nearly far enough
Presumes that sex is the basis or a large part of the marriage--Surprise surprise there are Thousand--perhaps millions of marriages that don't have the sexual component
Sorry Forced Sex Is rape
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ChattyKathy
I guess I do not understand why you would marry a man and not intend to give him due benevolence. If that was the agreement up front before you married the person then neither the man or the woman should expect to be treated with that privilege. But in my book of understanding a marriage consists of the man and wife taking care of each other in light of the fact it is a natural and healthy expectation in a marriage.
And if a woman uses withheld sex to pay back, get revenge, whatever then she is flat out wrong!
As to the examples you used of course...who wants to be slobbered all over and bedded because the man or woman got hot with someone else. And that is bigger than sexual relations as well.
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waysider
Kathy----- I wasn't trying to single out any one person. It's a very serious topic and highly misunderstood by far too many people. I agree that when the accuasation is used falsely it damages the credibility of those who desperately need to be heard.
Just saw Temple Ladys' post and she said"Forced sex is rape." She also gave an example of the violent component. Misunderstanding this element of physical violence is maybe what seperates rape from other equally heinous sex crimes and unacceptabl sexual behaviours.
Lots of viewpoints here. That's what keeps the dialog interesting and educational.
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ChattyKathy
I will admit that I have agreed with some of each post and all of other posts here, even the ones I disputed to some degree. My concern being voiced is the notion that is just around the corner that a woman would never be responsible for being raped in any degree. That is not correct in my opinion. You can place yourself in harms way and then why should the man be fully blamed?
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Ductape
Great points!
Sure I agree that forced, physical violent sex is rape. But why wouldn't a woman tell her man to take a bath then he can "have her"?
For that matter what about the woman that has sex with any man but her husband? Sorry that's not what the thread is about, my bad
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potato
becaue the man has a choice about forcing sex on someone. he can keep his pants zipped. he can leave. no one is forcing him to rape.
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ChattyKathy
I don't think it would be as simple as get a bath though. A slobbery drunken couldn't find your lips if they were 25" across can bath until his skin falls off and he's still disgusting. But I imagine there could be times when it might be that simple yes.
I still can't understand going into a marriage if you do not intend to have the pleasures of it, but I guess whatever floats your boat.
And on that off topic thing you probably would have had at least one rebuttal saying the men do the same.
And a woman can keep herself out of harms way also.
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potato
in a healthy marriage, both do take care of each other and sex is part of that. if a woman withholds sex, it's really not your place to judge her reasons about why. the man can leave if he doesn't like it. it's no longer legal for a man to force his wife to have sex with him (i.e. rape her).
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