After a fitful sleep I now get to enjoy or regret the personal views of people I have considered friends (on line yes) for years and the concern that the set I have now grown will shortly demand that I leave you folks permanently.
There might be other things Rocky but that is a few that come to mind now.
Kathy, first and foremost I want to make it clear that from my perspective, our friendship is not threatened by this discussion nor what could be a difference of opinion within it. In fact, I would agree that getting married with the full intent of not having sex with your partner is very bizzar at best - unless the partner knows ahead of time that is what he/she is getting into. If the latter is the case there is mutual consent to that arrangement. However, it is my guess that few women go into a marriage not wanting to have sex with their partner. Those who do, may very well have issues that require the assistance of a psychologist or physician.
Likewise, I agree with you regarding those who falsely accuse someone of rape - within or outside of a marriage. They do a great disservice not only to the men they have accused, but to the women who really have been raped.
I initially stayed out of this discussion because it is such a personal and emotionally charged one for me, chosing instead to answer via PM to those I had something to say. However, the post of one particular person really moved me, because it was so much like my own experience. That person seemed to be getting little support or understanding, and so I decided to offer some of both publicly.
Likewise, because TWI (at least in the latter years) shoved "due benevolence" and "your body is not your own" down the throats (and other organs) of women - it is really a trigger phrase - at least for me. The way those verses were used by leadership and SOME husbands was very very very damaging to SOME women and marriages.
So yes, on one level I agree to go into a marriage knowing full well you don't want to have a sexual relationship with your spouse is a terrible thing to do, unless your spouse knows ahead of time that is the arrangment. However, to have sex out of guilt, duty, or obligation is also damaging not only to the person who is doing it, but to the person on the receiving end as well - because it will damage the overall relationship at some point in time. At least, that is my opinion. Perhaps I am wrong in that view - but I view sex as the most intimate and personal of acts between a man and a women.
I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. Peace to you, my friend.
Abi, you provided the best I could have read back from you to me. And I agree with your post without hesitation and understand the trigger aspect also. In fact I think women using rape must be one of my trigger things.
self-preservation ha and you are sweet, thanks
I swear life is a beach without the benefit of the sand and surf some days.
for such an inquiry, in the mind/intent of the inquirer WILL significantly influence the structure of any discussion of the topic.
And other than helping any person, potential victim or perpetrator, to avoid a dangerous situation, I don't understand the need for such a discussion. There may be a need, but I don't see it.
Is this the post you were refering to that no one responded to? Because, quite obviously, although you do not see a need for this discussion, the number of people participating would indicate others do.
Such a discussion could have many benefits. It could help someone who has been raped, it could help someone who is currently being raped. It could help us to think through what truly constitutes rape and maybe eventually help motivate a change in legislation. For instance, I think tagging a 17 or 18 year old boy for having consensual sex with a 15 or 16 year old as a sex offender, is criminal on the part of our legislators.
It could help women think about the dangerous situations they have put themselves in, in the past - perhaps one or two will rethink their behavior and choices and make wiser decisions in the future. It could help women who have been raped or verbally, emotionally, and "spiritually" coerced into having sex with their spouse realize they are not alone in what they went through.
It could help the men and women undertand the perspectives of the opposite sex a little bit better.
I am wondering why this discussion seems to bother you so much?
Kathy, I can't imagine why anyone would ask you to leave, but I'm glad you seem to be feeling better this morning. This is a touchy subject, for sure, and with any touchy subject it seems harder when we don't understand someone's point of view or when they don't understand ours.
Rocky, what's the purpose of any discussion on here?
Good points except that using sex against someone is wrong, be it withholding or abusing, and that is my point. If you don't like to have sex then make sure your spouse knows that before you marry them, anything else is dishonest and will cause problems as long as one of the members of the marriage enjoys and expects it to be a part of their marital relationship.
And skiing is not part of a marital relationship which sexual relations is and that is correct whether you like sex or not. The fact we would allow our young people to think they could decide whether to allow that privilege in their marriage or not is feeding them PC thinking and will demean the marital foundation as time goes on. And apparently already has to some degree for people to even consider it a healthy way of thinking just because they can.
LindaZ... my question, as yours appears, was rhetorical.
btw, ChattyKathy... rather than being asked to leave, I'd instead figure you'd have people (the guys, of course) ask you to marry them!
Well, I agree with Chatty Kathy. A woman should be careful as to the surrounding circumstances. I do think we have a certain responsibility to think things through, and not to put ourselves in precarious situations. Example. If you're going out on a first date, it's probably not a good idea to wear clothing that's revealing, drink too much with someone you don't know, and the meeting place would be another consideration.
I realize women do get raped. And no, I don't think it's their fault. I'm just saying, why invite it?
As far as marraiges go, well; that's a harder monster. I think Abi posted some good points as well as others. Most people marry with an understanding sex will be a part of the relationship. In cases of abuse, things start to take on different scenarios, and it's impossible to make a blanket judgment. I guess that's why we have court systems, and restraining orders if they're necessary.
No, I'm not for a woman using rape just to get back at her husband. No, I'm not for a man who abuses his wife.
I may get slammed here as well. I won't be around to respond until later though.
I think the “classic” kind of rape with a man crawling through a window with a knife is definitely violent and is rape.
But what about where the lines blurr…
The guy who knows you are a virgin and bets his friend he can “have you” and all things said to “get you there” are lies. Is that rape? It is getting you to do something you do not want to do -- you do not want to have sex without genuine love…. They tell you they love you to get into your pants…. Is that just a more refined acceptable rape? Merely manipulation with bad consequences? Or is this rapist just more intelligent and patient then the guy coming through the window?
When someone’s intent is merely to have the “vagina” (using men as the rapist here but you can flip flop it) and they do anything to get the “vagina” that may not be a rape of violence but more of a chess game – the results are similar a girl has been violated, led to believe something that does not exist, and the guy (in this example) walks away with having had the “vagina” and in some very real way has stolen the girls’ (in this example’s) power.
I think I am just shocked at how many acceptable forms of “unwanted sex” happens.
Example:
My niece was a virgin. She did not want to engage in meaningless sex, but was looking to be loved – especially for her first time. One of the hottest 17-year-old-guys in school asked her out. …Went out with her several times. She was 15-years-old. And to be cool, she accepted a drink. He “had sex with her” then never called her again. She found out he had bet his friends he could “tap that.”
She asked me, “Was that rape? I feel raped. Maybe not jumped from a bush but set up by evil intent and violated.”
Was she raped? Not by violence – but the guy did take her power, IMO.
I helped at a rape crisis center. You hear so many stories where people have been emotionally paralyzed by unwanted sex. Is it all rape, surely it cannot be. Sometimes people get there signals crossed. The person thinks the other wants it – inexperience – whatever…. But sometimes, frankly I don’t know.
I think if the intent of the one seeking sex is evil, abusive, violent, or empowering or simply to use people then it is rape. But when people cry rape to get “even” that should also be a crime punishable by jail/prison.
The consequence from the above example? At 16 she quit school and left home. Once a popular cheerleader she withered into a broom pusher at a hair salon. Yes, we tried to get her help…. Did she loose something that day or was it taken from her? Or did she give it away?
I watched one of those TV magazine shows it was about a college girl who was slipped something and raped. About 20 years later the guy contacts her and says he is sorry. She is prosecuting him. (Yeah, after all these years, not sure how they pulled it off) But one of the things that stood out was how many people WHEN she told them, either did not believe her, dismissed her, or kind of thought she was to blame as she went to the party....
Lori, if you get slammed it would be disgraceful on the part of the slammer to do it to you. And that is not because I am buttering you up because you happened to agree with me, it is because what you said makes sense and absolutely is part of why women who get raped rarely report it. And so they live with that pain and all the crap it does to them inside. Until at last a few of them seek help and begin to learn they are not the whores they have considered themselves to be, or the piece of meat for the taking others feel. There are many ways being raped screws your head over and having a married woman use it for revenge is just flat out wrong and I would love to have her in my personal space for just 5 minutes and she would shake in her tennis shoes at the very notion of using that for a revenge piece, screw the law getting involved, I have an excellent court system in my hands.
Dot, so nice to see you back, can you believe the activity since your last visit. And you have excellent contributions there!
No absolutely means no, but what about when no doesn't work? Remember we are talking about the differance between men and woman and the ways each hears and communicates differantly. Does that make it one's fault or the other if things go bad in on a date or in a marriage?
That would probably be for the court to decide.
If I teach my girls that a boy WILL misread her innocent flirting, WILL hear yes when she's said no, have I prepared her?
No
If I teach her that it's in her best interest to be absolutely sure of her surroundings and with whom she's surrounded then give her the tools with which to hopefully, maybe get out of a mess she might find herself in, have I better equipped her?
Maybe.
Should I teach her about communication in a relationship that might turn into marriage? About what part sex plays in her relationship with that potential partner?
Yes
If a child is raped, there should never ever ever be this conversation in this thread. A child does not provoke a sexual act given that the child does not have the capacity to understand that is what s/he is doing. If s/he has been taught that is love and that is the way in which s/he is to behave, it's still not that childs fault, ever. The adults are the ones that know better and are responsible to make the decision that is right.
I question more than just what's been brought up here if a man rapes his wife or if a woman causes her husband to believe she wants sex and then turns it off. Or one uses same as a defense in a divorce or custody battle.
That's not to say it doesn't happen. I absolutely know it does and it falls in the abuse subject again.
I also am painfully aware that not very many parents have these conversations with their daughter or sons, teaching them about what is healthy sexual relationships and what is not. For me to wish it were differant is not the point.
I can tell my girls about physical things I understand about boys/men and encourage them to not lose respect for the way each body operates. I can prepare them to handle this part of a relationship in a healthy manner.
It so often comes back to communication, the honest upfront kind.
And I know my point doesn't even start to discuss the brutal rape by a stranger/rapist.
Shell, communication with our children so they know they have a choice and they know what is appropriate and acceptable certainly will help protect them from abuse in many areas of their lives.
Thank you from me for what you offered.
And I have to be away again. I have more packing to do.
I am not always able to get to the "net". We do not have it at work.
There are some painful points brought up here. And teaching our children to say no and how to protect themselves is huge. But what about teaching boys and girls how to respect each other? Kinda hard in an MTV world.
My sister found her son with bondage magazines. She sat down with him and told him that is not making "love". She and her son had long talks about respecting each other and each others bodies. Who knows if it helped or he just hid the magazines better.
Now this crap just kills me. The woman rapist has the baby of the child they are raping. My God! Should the child that was raped have to pay child support when they are older?
Not directed at anyone but addressing how I feel about the marriage thing
Marriage brings a whole different dimension to the issue of rape.
IMO
If a woman is treated like crap, called names, perhaps even has her husband pretend to vomit in the trash can when she comes on to him, then expect sex because of the vows and the ring – he will have nothing to kiss except my azz.
If the marriage is somewhat normal and she just thinks “well, sex is one aspect I am not going to do” – then there is a problem as I think sex is a reasonable expectation to getting married unless discussed prior. Perhaps, therapy or an arrangement to go outside the marriage.
If the marriage disengages over time to a sexless marriage, and someone wants it out of the blue, then there is some wooing that needs to transpire to restart the flame. Forcing someone is not romance.
When someone forces you to perform like a trained seal because of a ring – then that is rape. Get divorced. See other people. But do not expect to let the marriage fall into disrepair and expect a physical tune-up because “I owe” you.
If it isn’t healthy remove yourself. I would not press charges against a man I lived with – but if I moved out an he paid an unwanted visit and forced me – I would press charges.
But this is very personal... Only the two of you know if sex was used as a weapon or a withholding tool to get what you want...
there was a time when I should have pressed charges against a man I lived with. if I found myself in the same circumstances now, I probably would press charges.
that's why once I decided I was not going to have sex with my husband, nothing was going to convince me otherwise until something changed, be it divorce or him going into counseling and finding some humanity, and if he tried to force me he would have faced rape charges.
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ChattyKathy
You were wiser than I was sweet girl.
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Abigail
Kathy, first and foremost I want to make it clear that from my perspective, our friendship is not threatened by this discussion nor what could be a difference of opinion within it. In fact, I would agree that getting married with the full intent of not having sex with your partner is very bizzar at best - unless the partner knows ahead of time that is what he/she is getting into. If the latter is the case there is mutual consent to that arrangement. However, it is my guess that few women go into a marriage not wanting to have sex with their partner. Those who do, may very well have issues that require the assistance of a psychologist or physician.
Likewise, I agree with you regarding those who falsely accuse someone of rape - within or outside of a marriage. They do a great disservice not only to the men they have accused, but to the women who really have been raped.
I initially stayed out of this discussion because it is such a personal and emotionally charged one for me, chosing instead to answer via PM to those I had something to say. However, the post of one particular person really moved me, because it was so much like my own experience. That person seemed to be getting little support or understanding, and so I decided to offer some of both publicly.
Likewise, because TWI (at least in the latter years) shoved "due benevolence" and "your body is not your own" down the throats (and other organs) of women - it is really a trigger phrase - at least for me. The way those verses were used by leadership and SOME husbands was very very very damaging to SOME women and marriages.
So yes, on one level I agree to go into a marriage knowing full well you don't want to have a sexual relationship with your spouse is a terrible thing to do, unless your spouse knows ahead of time that is the arrangment. However, to have sex out of guilt, duty, or obligation is also damaging not only to the person who is doing it, but to the person on the receiving end as well - because it will damage the overall relationship at some point in time. At least, that is my opinion. Perhaps I am wrong in that view - but I view sex as the most intimate and personal of acts between a man and a women.
I hope that helps you understand where I am coming from. Peace to you, my friend.
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excathedra
self-preservation ha and you are sweet, thanks
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ChattyKathy
Abi, you provided the best I could have read back from you to me. And I agree with your post without hesitation and understand the trigger aspect also. In fact I think women using rape must be one of my trigger things.
I swear life is a beach without the benefit of the sand and surf some days.
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Abigail
Is this the post you were refering to that no one responded to? Because, quite obviously, although you do not see a need for this discussion, the number of people participating would indicate others do.
Such a discussion could have many benefits. It could help someone who has been raped, it could help someone who is currently being raped. It could help us to think through what truly constitutes rape and maybe eventually help motivate a change in legislation. For instance, I think tagging a 17 or 18 year old boy for having consensual sex with a 15 or 16 year old as a sex offender, is criminal on the part of our legislators.
It could help women think about the dangerous situations they have put themselves in, in the past - perhaps one or two will rethink their behavior and choices and make wiser decisions in the future. It could help women who have been raped or verbally, emotionally, and "spiritually" coerced into having sex with their spouse realize they are not alone in what they went through.
It could help the men and women undertand the perspectives of the opposite sex a little bit better.
I am wondering why this discussion seems to bother you so much?
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Linda Z
Kathy, I can't imagine why anyone would ask you to leave, but I'm glad you seem to be feeling better this morning. This is a touchy subject, for sure, and with any touchy subject it seems harder when we don't understand someone's point of view or when they don't understand ours.
Rocky, what's the purpose of any discussion on here?
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ChattyKathy
Linda, this one has cost my health a bit and I am thankful for the incredible support I have been given this morning.
I need to be away now for awhile so if anyone speaks to me and I do not reply that would be why.
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templelady
Kathy I do share you viewpoint on the second Item in my list As I said it would have to be decided on a case by case basis
I think where part of your question comes from the idea that Sex is enjoyable
Sex is an activity like any other that may or may not be enjoyable for a variety of reasons
If someone said they didn't like skiing we wouldn't cry from the rooftops that there is something wrong with them and insist that they need counseling
But for some reason our society and the Gurus-who-know have decided that there is a problem if someone doesn't like sex.
Enough already, a persons sex life is just that, their sex life, and should be left to them as to how they want to conduct it.
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ChattyKathy
Good points except that using sex against someone is wrong, be it withholding or abusing, and that is my point. If you don't like to have sex then make sure your spouse knows that before you marry them, anything else is dishonest and will cause problems as long as one of the members of the marriage enjoys and expects it to be a part of their marital relationship.
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Rocky
LindaZ... my question, as yours appears, was rhetorical.
btw, ChattyKathy... rather than being asked to leave, I'd instead figure you'd have people (the guys, of course) ask you to marry them!
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ChattyKathy
And skiing is not part of a marital relationship which sexual relations is and that is correct whether you like sex or not. The fact we would allow our young people to think they could decide whether to allow that privilege in their marriage or not is feeding them PC thinking and will demean the marital foundation as time goes on. And apparently already has to some degree for people to even consider it a healthy way of thinking just because they can.
I rather thought that would be the case.
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ChattyKathy
I am leaving again for awhile should someone speak to me and I not reply.
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Dot Matrix
Copenhagen! You have my vote!!!!!
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potato
me too, copenhagen. no should mean no, no matter where you're at in the act. "carried away with passion" isn't a defense.
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Lori
Well, I agree with Chatty Kathy. A woman should be careful as to the surrounding circumstances. I do think we have a certain responsibility to think things through, and not to put ourselves in precarious situations. Example. If you're going out on a first date, it's probably not a good idea to wear clothing that's revealing, drink too much with someone you don't know, and the meeting place would be another consideration.
I realize women do get raped. And no, I don't think it's their fault. I'm just saying, why invite it?
As far as marraiges go, well; that's a harder monster. I think Abi posted some good points as well as others. Most people marry with an understanding sex will be a part of the relationship. In cases of abuse, things start to take on different scenarios, and it's impossible to make a blanket judgment. I guess that's why we have court systems, and restraining orders if they're necessary.
No, I'm not for a woman using rape just to get back at her husband. No, I'm not for a man who abuses his wife.
I may get slammed here as well. I won't be around to respond until later though.
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Dot Matrix
I think the “classic” kind of rape with a man crawling through a window with a knife is definitely violent and is rape.
But what about where the lines blurr…
The guy who knows you are a virgin and bets his friend he can “have you” and all things said to “get you there” are lies. Is that rape? It is getting you to do something you do not want to do -- you do not want to have sex without genuine love…. They tell you they love you to get into your pants…. Is that just a more refined acceptable rape? Merely manipulation with bad consequences? Or is this rapist just more intelligent and patient then the guy coming through the window?
When someone’s intent is merely to have the “vagina” (using men as the rapist here but you can flip flop it) and they do anything to get the “vagina” that may not be a rape of violence but more of a chess game – the results are similar a girl has been violated, led to believe something that does not exist, and the guy (in this example) walks away with having had the “vagina” and in some very real way has stolen the girls’ (in this example’s) power.
I think I am just shocked at how many acceptable forms of “unwanted sex” happens.
Example:
My niece was a virgin. She did not want to engage in meaningless sex, but was looking to be loved – especially for her first time. One of the hottest 17-year-old-guys in school asked her out. …Went out with her several times. She was 15-years-old. And to be cool, she accepted a drink. He “had sex with her” then never called her again. She found out he had bet his friends he could “tap that.”
She asked me, “Was that rape? I feel raped. Maybe not jumped from a bush but set up by evil intent and violated.”
Was she raped? Not by violence – but the guy did take her power, IMO.
I helped at a rape crisis center. You hear so many stories where people have been emotionally paralyzed by unwanted sex. Is it all rape, surely it cannot be. Sometimes people get there signals crossed. The person thinks the other wants it – inexperience – whatever…. But sometimes, frankly I don’t know.
I think if the intent of the one seeking sex is evil, abusive, violent, or empowering or simply to use people then it is rape. But when people cry rape to get “even” that should also be a crime punishable by jail/prison.
The consequence from the above example? At 16 she quit school and left home. Once a popular cheerleader she withered into a broom pusher at a hair salon. Yes, we tried to get her help…. Did she loose something that day or was it taken from her? Or did she give it away?
I watched one of those TV magazine shows it was about a college girl who was slipped something and raped. About 20 years later the guy contacts her and says he is sorry. She is prosecuting him. (Yeah, after all these years, not sure how they pulled it off) But one of the things that stood out was how many people WHEN she told them, either did not believe her, dismissed her, or kind of thought she was to blame as she went to the party....
What is rape?
http://www.healthyplace.com/Communities/Ab..._definition.htm
Dictionary Definitions
Rape: Sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception.
Statutory rape: Sexual intercourse with a female who is below the statutory age of consent.
Consent: Compliance in or approval of what is done or proposed by another.
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ChattyKathy
Lori, if you get slammed it would be disgraceful on the part of the slammer to do it to you. And that is not because I am buttering you up because you happened to agree with me, it is because what you said makes sense and absolutely is part of why women who get raped rarely report it. And so they live with that pain and all the crap it does to them inside. Until at last a few of them seek help and begin to learn they are not the whores they have considered themselves to be, or the piece of meat for the taking others feel. There are many ways being raped screws your head over and having a married woman use it for revenge is just flat out wrong and I would love to have her in my personal space for just 5 minutes and she would shake in her tennis shoes at the very notion of using that for a revenge piece, screw the law getting involved, I have an excellent court system in my hands.
Dot, so nice to see you back, can you believe the activity since your last visit. And you have excellent contributions there!
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Shellon
I keep thinking as a mom of daughters here.
No absolutely means no, but what about when no doesn't work? Remember we are talking about the differance between men and woman and the ways each hears and communicates differantly. Does that make it one's fault or the other if things go bad in on a date or in a marriage?
That would probably be for the court to decide.
If I teach my girls that a boy WILL misread her innocent flirting, WILL hear yes when she's said no, have I prepared her?
No
If I teach her that it's in her best interest to be absolutely sure of her surroundings and with whom she's surrounded then give her the tools with which to hopefully, maybe get out of a mess she might find herself in, have I better equipped her?
Maybe.
Should I teach her about communication in a relationship that might turn into marriage? About what part sex plays in her relationship with that potential partner?
Yes
If a child is raped, there should never ever ever be this conversation in this thread. A child does not provoke a sexual act given that the child does not have the capacity to understand that is what s/he is doing. If s/he has been taught that is love and that is the way in which s/he is to behave, it's still not that childs fault, ever. The adults are the ones that know better and are responsible to make the decision that is right.
I question more than just what's been brought up here if a man rapes his wife or if a woman causes her husband to believe she wants sex and then turns it off. Or one uses same as a defense in a divorce or custody battle.
That's not to say it doesn't happen. I absolutely know it does and it falls in the abuse subject again.
I also am painfully aware that not very many parents have these conversations with their daughter or sons, teaching them about what is healthy sexual relationships and what is not. For me to wish it were differant is not the point.
I can tell my girls about physical things I understand about boys/men and encourage them to not lose respect for the way each body operates. I can prepare them to handle this part of a relationship in a healthy manner.
It so often comes back to communication, the honest upfront kind.
And I know my point doesn't even start to discuss the brutal rape by a stranger/rapist.
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ChattyKathy
Shell, communication with our children so they know they have a choice and they know what is appropriate and acceptable certainly will help protect them from abuse in many areas of their lives.
Thank you from me for what you offered.
And I have to be away again. I have more packing to do.
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Dot Matrix
I am not always able to get to the "net". We do not have it at work.
There are some painful points brought up here. And teaching our children to say no and how to protect themselves is huge. But what about teaching boys and girls how to respect each other? Kinda hard in an MTV world.
My sister found her son with bondage magazines. She sat down with him and told him that is not making "love". She and her son had long talks about respecting each other and each others bodies. Who knows if it helped or he just hid the magazines better.
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Dot Matrix
Now this crap just kills me. The woman rapist has the baby of the child they are raping. My God! Should the child that was raped have to pay child support when they are older?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1275454/posts
I think a woman rapist need to be punished
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Dot Matrix
Not directed at anyone but addressing how I feel about the marriage thing
Marriage brings a whole different dimension to the issue of rape.
IMO
If a woman is treated like crap, called names, perhaps even has her husband pretend to vomit in the trash can when she comes on to him, then expect sex because of the vows and the ring – he will have nothing to kiss except my azz.
If the marriage is somewhat normal and she just thinks “well, sex is one aspect I am not going to do” – then there is a problem as I think sex is a reasonable expectation to getting married unless discussed prior. Perhaps, therapy or an arrangement to go outside the marriage.
If the marriage disengages over time to a sexless marriage, and someone wants it out of the blue, then there is some wooing that needs to transpire to restart the flame. Forcing someone is not romance.
When someone forces you to perform like a trained seal because of a ring – then that is rape. Get divorced. See other people. But do not expect to let the marriage fall into disrepair and expect a physical tune-up because “I owe” you.
If it isn’t healthy remove yourself. I would not press charges against a man I lived with – but if I moved out an he paid an unwanted visit and forced me – I would press charges.
But this is very personal... Only the two of you know if sex was used as a weapon or a withholding tool to get what you want...
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excathedra
my mom had 9 children in a 10 year span
my father was (one of) the meanest most horrible abusive person i ever met
damn it what am i doing on this thread ;)
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potato
there was a time when I should have pressed charges against a man I lived with. if I found myself in the same circumstances now, I probably would press charges.
that's why once I decided I was not going to have sex with my husband, nothing was going to convince me otherwise until something changed, be it divorce or him going into counseling and finding some humanity, and if he tried to force me he would have faced rape charges.
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