Wendy: I am a happy satisfied customer of TWI. Thirty years ago tomorrow I sat through session 12 of PFAL for the first time. Awesome; no regrets. Today and tomorrow I'll be sitting through a class about Oriental insights into the bible (taught by Bishop Pillai himself). Gonna be great. If someone wants to take a college class on the side nobody cares, but somehow if somebody wants to take a bible class they must be "brainwashed".
As for your daughter, if she is really into it, you're going to have to let it run its course. I was into dope from ages 16-24. If my mom had done anything extreme like disowning me or kicking me to the curb at age 18 things could have gotten really ugly, but she did everything in her power to maintain our relationship without letting me run her life. But I was really into getting high and that had to run its course.
Now, drugs are illegal. I never sold them, just used them, but why should my mom assume that? If I was ever caught selling drugs out of her house she could have lost ownership of it immediately. Many parents in that situation might have done anything to prevent the possibility of this. But, religion is not illegal.
There is no looming legal danger by having a child in a "cult"; just the perceived violation of the love bond between you. Be careful what you do. If she is really really into this and you do something extreme like try to have her deprogrammed, you may lose her for life. While you're considering the tabloid material other posters have referred you to, also consider that in the 80s deprogrammers wanted 20Gs up front with no guaranteed results. They kidnap, tie and gag with ductape, sleep deprive, and otherwise abuse their "clients" until they verbally agree with them.
One guy from TWI was treated like that for a week. Then when confronted by his mother and brothers he still would not renounce his TWI status so loving mom slapped and clawed his face and little brother punched him in the gut while he was tied up and couldn't defend himself. After 2 months or so he was put in a half way house from which he escaped and he NEVER respected his mom again.
I'm not with TWI now, I'm with an offshoot, but I still have respect for what I was taught in TWI. AND I still get along with my siblings. My mom trusted me with her power of attorney during the last 5 yrs of her life. I'm sure I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall while my mom and siblings talked together about me being in a "cult" but they didn't do anything extreme.
(((Wendy))) Your prayers are the most powerfull thing that you can do for your daughter.
What she does, she thinks she is doing for God.
If she feels she must, she will put God/the offshoot before family, friends, and job.
We were told to do horrible things because God required it of us. It is not that she will be against you, but she is being told that she will be FOR God.
I was convinced that my parents and well meaning family members were working for Satan to trick me away from the *word*
The man, Chris Geer, that runs this group was the guy who many have reported (including former leaders themselves) to have given drugged drinks to young women so that they could be raped by the original founder of the group. He is a vile, cruel man, in NO way qualified to teach scriptures.
The people that are at the top hiarchy of these groups, are depraved and evil. What they manage to do is attract good hearted, well meaning people to hide behind.
They appear healthy and wholesom at the out set because of these well meaning people, and because they teach scripture, they appear harmless.
Walk carefully friend, lest you set off those alarm bells that will make her feel like you are being spiritually influenced by satan.
I am sorry, but looking back over my time in twi (the parent group), (I became involved at 17) with the utmost of regret for what was taken from me.
You will both be in my earnest prayers. I would rather my kids were doing drugs or jail time then to see them become involved, warped and manipulated by these people.
Finally, you are NOT over reacting, this is a major cross roads in your kiddoes life, you are involved in a battle for her life and mental wellness.
I know that I sound like I am being mellow dramatic here, but this stuff is serious.
The scriptures that these folks teach are warped and manipulated to make what Chris Geer and vpw (the founder) appear to be alright, or a minor *slip*.
The folks who participate in the off shoots now either don`t know about the character of these men and the damage they inflicted to our innocent brothers and sisters, or they just don`t care.
There were drugged rapes, forced abortions, and people driven to suicide in the original group Geer was the worst) all excused with the scriptures that these guys used to enforce their desires and will.
There were people who tried to follow the teachings for healing that died when they threw away their medications, *believing* that they were healed.
To believe a lot of the claptrap that's taught in a class like PFAL takes a lot of denial. You have to deny things you see every day, deny feelings and insights you have, deny a lot of logic that you know intuitively about how life works. Even teen agers know this on some level (though it may not be a conscious level).
So for a person to be attracted to that much denial, there has to be a strong motivator. In my case it was to have a father figure, a family I could believe was loving and someone to direct my life and save me from making the hard choices that growing up into a responsible adult demands.
I suspect your daughter's level of attraction will be related to the severity of her unmet emotional needs. The best thing you can do is show her respect and let her know that you are there for her - without being overbearing. She'll have to go through it at her own pace. This doesn't mean you have to go along with anything you don't like, or lie about your opinions. Just that you have to respect hers even when her logic doesn't hold up. Keep in mind the appeal of these groups is emotional and deep seated.
If there are some obvious problems in her upbringing that might make a cult attractive to her, then the best thing you can do is admit your part in those (if any) and change them. Discuss this growth in yourself with her - but only about you. Leave her to figure out it's affect on her.
You have been in my thoughts (and therefore prayers) since I read your post yesterday.
I was involved with TWI from the age of 18 until 46. My mom called around some when I got involved and then took PFAL for herself. My dad eventually took it too. Neither ever got "involved," but at least they went to the "horse's mouth" to get information. I understand you are inquiring about an offshoot, but the concept is the same.
I am not an advice giver; therefore, this is not "advice".... simply some thoughts.
You have gotten responses here leaning toward both ends of the spectrum, and some middle-of-the-road responses.
I'm a believer in gathering information, sitting with it, endeavoring to look at a situation with (as much a possible) neutrality, weighing it with what I believe and then taking a jump....all with prayer while staying in touch with my "gut."
I might consider other's advice/suggestions, but when the rubber hits the road, I endeavor to stick more with my own heart trusting God to work there and giving the outcome to Him. If I screw up (which does happen), I endeavor to admit it, correct what I can....and surrender the outcome once again.
For what it's worth, I encourage you to continue to proceed gathering info and then moving as you feel led.
Here are a couple links to a site I found within the past couple months that have helped me with cult mindset. It is one man's opinion/insight regarding cult thinking, an individual once involved with Scientology and then the anti-cult movement.
And don't blame yourself for your daughter's choices; you sound like a wonderful mom who loves her daughter.
Good success to you Wendy.
ILB
PS: I left TWI 1-1/2 years ago. Both my teens (16 and 19 currently) were raised with TWI doctrine (to a point)...and they are doing very well, btw. They no longer choose to attend TWI functions. We are not "involved" with an offshoot; but have had beneficial help, encouragement, and teaching from some offshoots.
One thing I ought to add. The severity of the problems experienced in any given off shoots, as in twi, the parent group, seems to be related directly who the leader is in a particular area.
You have a wide variety of experiences in the same group. That is why some people appear to enjoy their involvement, and others were destroyed.
My daughter moved to Chicago in June of 2006 and is currently living in what they term "the girls house". When she first began going to fellowships I wasn't concerned. I was raised a Baptist and I thought hey, they are studying the bible, what can be wrong with that. Lately, she and I have been having conversations that completely worry me. Apparently, this group of children (ages 17 to 24) have been getting materials from the Belizian BRC to avoid copyright infringement so that they can hear the teachings of the guy who started The Way International, I don't remember his name right now. Also, they are going to a youth advance in Ohio next weekend. Their "leader" has told them first that he doesn't want them to read this teaching, which by the way I have no problem with after I researched the guy, and secondly, that if they go to this advance in Ohio, he is kicking them all out of the group. Apparently the group they are going to is part of PFAL. I don't know much about that and haven't been able to find much. Anyhow, I don't know how to reach her and convince her to just come home. I am scared, and I want to help her without alientating her. What do I do? How can I help? Please anyhow who can give me some information I would be so grateful.
Dear Wendy,
The Devil's grandmother died of two ailments. One was "free" advice and the other is poor excuses. I think you will find a lot of both here at gs. It's sort of like a "Dear Abby" column. Everyone wants to be your friend until they decide they don't like you. So here's MY advice! "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...Believe God to help you find the words you need when you spend time with your daughter, and give her the best part of your heart you can. You cannot do more than that. Things will work out, just be patient!
The Devil's grandmother died of two ailments. One was "free" advice and the other is poor excuses. I think you will find a lot of both here at gs. It's sort of like a "Dear Abby" column. Everyone wants to be your friend until they decide they don't like you. So here's MY advice! "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...Believe God to help you find the words you need when you spend time with your daughter, and give her the best part of your heart you can. You cannot do more than that. Things will work out, just be patient!
edited because while I do think this was trite, and I don't like the back-handed "people here suck" message, bumpy is entitled to voice their opinion like the rest of us.
I guess one way to feel a little comforted is that she seems to have a good head on her shoulders... meaning she didn't send the money because she needed to cover some checks.. I can't or don't want to think of the many times we needed money but if we would show up to fellowship and not tithe.... man would we get lectured....
According to twi's pamphlet "Christians Should be Prosperous"
(which was often assigned to read as homework when beginning pfal),
you're supposed to be prospering if you're giving them money.
If you're giving them money and you are not prospering, then their doctrine does not work.
As the mathematicians would write that,
~Q -> ~P.
Hi Wendy
I was about your daughter's age when I got involved in 1976, that is before The Way International started by Victor Paul Wierwille broke up into little factions, one of which your daughter seems to becoming involved with at the moment.
I will pray for her and you and that you are able to keep the lines of communication open with her and that her heart is reached.
While she is living in a house filled with people, teens whatever who are of this group or are inclined towards this group, it will be hard for her to shake this experience off mentally. The best thing, besides speaking with her, is to get her away from them. I don't remember if you said she is going to school or not or working, but helping to get her own place and move pronto is necessary.
I do hope you and your husband can reach her. As hard as it is to remain calm, you want to make sure you do not overdo it with emotions with her while speaking to her. While you think you are showing love and concern and that tears or a little anger or frustration is normal (and it is) while I was in TWI we were taught that was the devil messing with our parents and using whatever emotion the devil could raise in them to manipulate us out of The Way. Since these guys were part and parcel of The Way, I would not be surprised if they are still spouting that stuff.
You also may want your husband to do much of the talking, as The Way denigrated women saying that there were easier used by the devil because they are more emotional and women who take charge (I do most of the talking in my household) or do the most talking are scorned by The Way.
It may be good if you are connected to a church to speak to your Pastor or find a loving caring Pastor who would agree to speak with her if she is cool with it. Don't gang up on her and don't make her feel defensive. Provide a loving open atmosphere and find out what it is she really wants. I am sure that there are many wonderful churches in the area she lives that do excellent bible studies that she could join, if she knows where to find them.
Definitely see if you can reach Steve Hassan. Google his name on the net and see if there is a contact to reach him or any of the groups or people that work to help people in situations like yourself.
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johniam
Wendy: I am a happy satisfied customer of TWI. Thirty years ago tomorrow I sat through session 12 of PFAL for the first time. Awesome; no regrets. Today and tomorrow I'll be sitting through a class about Oriental insights into the bible (taught by Bishop Pillai himself). Gonna be great. If someone wants to take a college class on the side nobody cares, but somehow if somebody wants to take a bible class they must be "brainwashed".
As for your daughter, if she is really into it, you're going to have to let it run its course. I was into dope from ages 16-24. If my mom had done anything extreme like disowning me or kicking me to the curb at age 18 things could have gotten really ugly, but she did everything in her power to maintain our relationship without letting me run her life. But I was really into getting high and that had to run its course.
Now, drugs are illegal. I never sold them, just used them, but why should my mom assume that? If I was ever caught selling drugs out of her house she could have lost ownership of it immediately. Many parents in that situation might have done anything to prevent the possibility of this. But, religion is not illegal.
There is no looming legal danger by having a child in a "cult"; just the perceived violation of the love bond between you. Be careful what you do. If she is really really into this and you do something extreme like try to have her deprogrammed, you may lose her for life. While you're considering the tabloid material other posters have referred you to, also consider that in the 80s deprogrammers wanted 20Gs up front with no guaranteed results. They kidnap, tie and gag with ductape, sleep deprive, and otherwise abuse their "clients" until they verbally agree with them.
One guy from TWI was treated like that for a week. Then when confronted by his mother and brothers he still would not renounce his TWI status so loving mom slapped and clawed his face and little brother punched him in the gut while he was tied up and couldn't defend himself. After 2 months or so he was put in a half way house from which he escaped and he NEVER respected his mom again.
I'm not with TWI now, I'm with an offshoot, but I still have respect for what I was taught in TWI. AND I still get along with my siblings. My mom trusted me with her power of attorney during the last 5 yrs of her life. I'm sure I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall while my mom and siblings talked together about me being in a "cult" but they didn't do anything extreme.
Consider these words.
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rascal
(((Wendy))) Your prayers are the most powerfull thing that you can do for your daughter.
What she does, she thinks she is doing for God.
If she feels she must, she will put God/the offshoot before family, friends, and job.
We were told to do horrible things because God required it of us. It is not that she will be against you, but she is being told that she will be FOR God.
I was convinced that my parents and well meaning family members were working for Satan to trick me away from the *word*
The man, Chris Geer, that runs this group was the guy who many have reported (including former leaders themselves) to have given drugged drinks to young women so that they could be raped by the original founder of the group. He is a vile, cruel man, in NO way qualified to teach scriptures.
The people that are at the top hiarchy of these groups, are depraved and evil. What they manage to do is attract good hearted, well meaning people to hide behind.
They appear healthy and wholesom at the out set because of these well meaning people, and because they teach scripture, they appear harmless.
Walk carefully friend, lest you set off those alarm bells that will make her feel like you are being spiritually influenced by satan.
I am sorry, but looking back over my time in twi (the parent group), (I became involved at 17) with the utmost of regret for what was taken from me.
You will both be in my earnest prayers. I would rather my kids were doing drugs or jail time then to see them become involved, warped and manipulated by these people.
Finally, you are NOT over reacting, this is a major cross roads in your kiddoes life, you are involved in a battle for her life and mental wellness.
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rascal
I know that I sound like I am being mellow dramatic here, but this stuff is serious.
The scriptures that these folks teach are warped and manipulated to make what Chris Geer and vpw (the founder) appear to be alright, or a minor *slip*.
The folks who participate in the off shoots now either don`t know about the character of these men and the damage they inflicted to our innocent brothers and sisters, or they just don`t care.
There were drugged rapes, forced abortions, and people driven to suicide in the original group Geer was the worst) all excused with the scriptures that these guys used to enforce their desires and will.
There were people who tried to follow the teachings for healing that died when they threw away their medications, *believing* that they were healed.
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My3Cents
To believe a lot of the claptrap that's taught in a class like PFAL takes a lot of denial. You have to deny things you see every day, deny feelings and insights you have, deny a lot of logic that you know intuitively about how life works. Even teen agers know this on some level (though it may not be a conscious level).
So for a person to be attracted to that much denial, there has to be a strong motivator. In my case it was to have a father figure, a family I could believe was loving and someone to direct my life and save me from making the hard choices that growing up into a responsible adult demands.
I suspect your daughter's level of attraction will be related to the severity of her unmet emotional needs. The best thing you can do is show her respect and let her know that you are there for her - without being overbearing. She'll have to go through it at her own pace. This doesn't mean you have to go along with anything you don't like, or lie about your opinions. Just that you have to respect hers even when her logic doesn't hold up. Keep in mind the appeal of these groups is emotional and deep seated.
If there are some obvious problems in her upbringing that might make a cult attractive to her, then the best thing you can do is admit your part in those (if any) and change them. Discuss this growth in yourself with her - but only about you. Leave her to figure out it's affect on her.
Good luck and hang in there.
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I Love Bagpipes
Hi Wendy,
You have been in my thoughts (and therefore prayers) since I read your post yesterday.
I was involved with TWI from the age of 18 until 46. My mom called around some when I got involved and then took PFAL for herself. My dad eventually took it too. Neither ever got "involved," but at least they went to the "horse's mouth" to get information. I understand you are inquiring about an offshoot, but the concept is the same.
I am not an advice giver; therefore, this is not "advice".... simply some thoughts.
You have gotten responses here leaning toward both ends of the spectrum, and some middle-of-the-road responses.
I'm a believer in gathering information, sitting with it, endeavoring to look at a situation with (as much a possible) neutrality, weighing it with what I believe and then taking a jump....all with prayer while staying in touch with my "gut."
I might consider other's advice/suggestions, but when the rubber hits the road, I endeavor to stick more with my own heart trusting God to work there and giving the outcome to Him. If I screw up (which does happen), I endeavor to admit it, correct what I can....and surrender the outcome once again.
For what it's worth, I encourage you to continue to proceed gathering info and then moving as you feel led.
Here are a couple links to a site I found within the past couple months that have helped me with cult mindset. It is one man's opinion/insight regarding cult thinking, an individual once involved with Scientology and then the anti-cult movement.
"What is a cult?": http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/cult.htm
"Mirrors": http://bernie.cncfamily.com/sc/mirrors.htm
And don't blame yourself for your daughter's choices; you sound like a wonderful mom who loves her daughter.
Good success to you Wendy.
ILB
PS: I left TWI 1-1/2 years ago. Both my teens (16 and 19 currently) were raised with TWI doctrine (to a point)...and they are doing very well, btw. They no longer choose to attend TWI functions. We are not "involved" with an offshoot; but have had beneficial help, encouragement, and teaching from some offshoots.
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rascal
One thing I ought to add. The severity of the problems experienced in any given off shoots, as in twi, the parent group, seems to be related directly who the leader is in a particular area.
You have a wide variety of experiences in the same group. That is why some people appear to enjoy their involvement, and others were destroyed.
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Bumpy
Dear Wendy,
The Devil's grandmother died of two ailments. One was "free" advice and the other is poor excuses. I think you will find a lot of both here at gs. It's sort of like a "Dear Abby" column. Everyone wants to be your friend until they decide they don't like you. So here's MY advice! "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart...Believe God to help you find the words you need when you spend time with your daughter, and give her the best part of your heart you can. You cannot do more than that. Things will work out, just be patient!
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potato
edited because while I do think this was trite, and I don't like the back-handed "people here suck" message, bumpy is entitled to voice their opinion like the rest of us.
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excathedra
hey dear wendy,
my mom was my best friend through the years of my involvement with a cult (age 18 until 34 i think)
and she still is my best friend
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oenophile
Or in simpler Polish notation:
CNPNQ
If not P then not Q.
I know I'm
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sprawled out
not everyone, lumpy. i never wanted to be your friend.
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passthetrash
I guess one way to feel a little comforted is that she seems to have a good head on her shoulders... meaning she didn't send the money because she needed to cover some checks.. I can't or don't want to think of the many times we needed money but if we would show up to fellowship and not tithe.... man would we get lectured....
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FullCircle
Hi Wendy
I was about your daughter's age when I got involved in 1976, that is before The Way International started by Victor Paul Wierwille broke up into little factions, one of which your daughter seems to becoming involved with at the moment.
I will pray for her and you and that you are able to keep the lines of communication open with her and that her heart is reached.
While she is living in a house filled with people, teens whatever who are of this group or are inclined towards this group, it will be hard for her to shake this experience off mentally. The best thing, besides speaking with her, is to get her away from them. I don't remember if you said she is going to school or not or working, but helping to get her own place and move pronto is necessary.
I do hope you and your husband can reach her. As hard as it is to remain calm, you want to make sure you do not overdo it with emotions with her while speaking to her. While you think you are showing love and concern and that tears or a little anger or frustration is normal (and it is) while I was in TWI we were taught that was the devil messing with our parents and using whatever emotion the devil could raise in them to manipulate us out of The Way. Since these guys were part and parcel of The Way, I would not be surprised if they are still spouting that stuff.
You also may want your husband to do much of the talking, as The Way denigrated women saying that there were easier used by the devil because they are more emotional and women who take charge (I do most of the talking in my household) or do the most talking are scorned by The Way.
It may be good if you are connected to a church to speak to your Pastor or find a loving caring Pastor who would agree to speak with her if she is cool with it. Don't gang up on her and don't make her feel defensive. Provide a loving open atmosphere and find out what it is she really wants. I am sure that there are many wonderful churches in the area she lives that do excellent bible studies that she could join, if she knows where to find them.
Definitely see if you can reach Steve Hassan. Google his name on the net and see if there is a contact to reach him or any of the groups or people that work to help people in situations like yourself.
I wish you and your daughter well.
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