It is not gossip at all ... it is questions based on the web site. ... the corps is revived with another victor paul wierwille ... how spooky is that?
for a site that has ex corps and ex wayfers ... it is chat worthy ...
rocky wants to label it his way ... that is his problem ... I think his comments are nasty ... calling our good querying into way corps two ... nasty gossip ... good grief ...
are they going to serve borscht? and wheat berries?
"rocky wants..."?
Do you have ANY idea how ridiculous you sound. Look, you get your way without me calling attention to your insane ideas on the political forum here these days... one might think that would be cause for thankfulness.
My problem?
I simply complimented Gilligan and pointed out that THIS thread was about the ideas.
And Ham's thread is about bashing a person without basis. Why do you say this, here on this thread, is a problem?
And Ham's thread is about bashing a person without basis. Why do you say this, here on this thread, is a problem?
Better up your Rx for prozac there rhino.
I take no meds ... well, 2 or 4 beers most days ...
You said the thread was "nasty gossip" ... I said that was wrong ... from the start of that thread, you seemed to miss the point that it was specifically about reusing the corps principles ... that some kid name victor paul wierwille is going to "coordinate" it just adds to the weirdness. And then there is the rather mysterious backing by CFF ...
I get my way on the political forum? Like you are the only one that can offer other opinions? Dude ... your opinion of your (ex) role there may be a tad inflated ...
I take no meds ... well, 2 or 4 beers most days ...
Okay, so ssri's are not YOUR drug of choice, no problem, my mistake.
You said the thread was "nasty gossip" ... I said that was wrong ... from the start of that thread, you seemed to miss the point that it was specifically about reusing the corps principles ... that some kid name victor paul wierwille is going to "coordinate" it just adds to the weirdness. And then there is the rather mysterious backing by CFF ...
You MADE my point. Thank you.
I get my way on the political forum? Like you are the only one that can offer other opinions? Dude ... your opinion of your (ex) role there may be a tad inflated ...
Not at all... I can't imagine your sad that I don't go there to bug you any more.
AGAIN. THIS thread, as started by Gilligan, was a legitimate discussion.
Ham, on the other hand, has some serious screws loose and that other discussion is some pretty solid evidence thereof, if he (and you) want to try to make anyone believe it was anything but a way to slam someone that you really (regardless of whether Ham has met the young man) DON'T know.
AGAIN. THIS thread, as started by Gilligan, was a legitimate discussion.
Ham, on the other hand, has some serious screws loose and that other discussion is some pretty solid evidence thereof, if he (and you) want to try to make anyone believe it was anything but a way to slam someone that you really (regardless of whether Ham has met the young man) DON'T know.
You aren't paying attention if you think it was about slamming V2P2. If anything, he is in the victim role, though if he follows in the other corps traditions, he may learn to victimize as well.
Sure people can learn from past mistakes ... but this starts with no improvements or changes evident ... it is a replica of the principles. For one, I'd change the principle of practicing believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry. Is empire building for me and/or the ministry the primary point of believing? Seems more secular than spiritual, and it ties the person in as a money maker for the ministry.
If "believing" even works, why not believe for effective ministering ... ?
And why "go forth as leaders and workers" ... what areas of concern interest and need? People are already "forth". Do they need to be moved around for CFF's benefit? Is that a God principle, or just something that helps the ministry coerce people into doing their bidding, and keeping "their people" on the move and available? ... A lifetime of moving around with the main attachment being the ministry?
Itseems like a set up from the start. And if there is anything ambiguous about the direction the principles are supposed to lead one, there is a 30 years history of twi to refer back to, with plenty of elders with the pattern etched in their brains.
And that it is the second coming of Victor Paul Wierwille ... is this like the second adam? this is the good one? That is just too weird to not mention.
Plenty to discuss ....
Here is the middle of the thread ... if people want to check it out for themselves.
It appears CFF is sponsoring or connected with this thing, which uses the old corps principles verbatim. Then it seems "staffed" by old wayfers. But the young Vic Paul wierwille is coordinating?
They put it on the web, so it is open for discussion.
Ham, on the other hand, has some serious screws loose and that other discussion is some pretty solid evidence thereof, if he (and you) want to try to make anyone believe it was anything but a way to slam someone that you really (regardless of whether Ham has met the young man) DON'T know
I won't contest that. The screws loose part that is.
what makes YOU such a bargain?
As far as my perceptions are concerned, I went to the source FIRST. "This really looks to me like you are trying to resurrect a slip-shod, abusive and controlling environment.. are you gonna use the "we can send you home any time we want" clause as some kind of threat when they don't measure up to YOUR standards?"
"Tell me if I'm getting this wrong.. that's why I'm asking YOU, bucko.."
Plus a half a dozen or so other relevant questions.
like who are the board answerable to..
what are their qualifications to run something like this..
There is no real advertised curriculum. What are you gonna do, just make it up as you go along?
Honestly, I think the boy can't get a real job with a bachellor's in history..
the kid hasn't been around the block even once in life yet. What the hell gives him the qualifications to run somebody else's life?
Rocky seems to hold to the argument that "it's none of your business".
Last time I checked, I'm SUPPOSED to be an elder in the same church he's in.. if that doesn't make it my business, I don't know what else will.
Rocky seems to hold to the argument that "it's none of your business".
Last time I checked, I'm SUPPOSED to be an elder in the same church he's in.. if that doesn't make it my business, I don't know what else will.
On many levels I think, if you inwardly question something going on as potentially harmful, there is perhaps an obligation to speak up. The sooner the better.
Whether it is consumer advocacy, or brotherly love, or a concerned citizenry ... pointing out the potential for harm is a good thing. The more discussion from people outside their little world, the better, it would seem. And what place has more qualified observers than here? :)
A dialogue would be better ... if they can't/won't answer some direct questions ... are they really ready to start molding young minds ... out on an isolated farm? It is a voluntary program, but I even wonder if the volunteers don't have some legal rights to consider. Perhaps they need an outside advocate like Mr. Ham.
And from a more aloof view, it is interesting to think of this new thang, in light of how we got swept away in that old thang. It is somewhat easier to analyze the new version, since our emotions are less directly involved. So it is easier to see how this could lead to manipulation, than to accept that we were manipulated by similar lofty promises ...
As we used to say ... you got the burden, Mr. Ham ...
If v2p2 is the p.r. man, he has failed miserably..
"listen ham, I understand your concerns. I'll send you a brochure that outlines what our new program is all about, has details about staff, what we expect to accomplish.."
"anything else I can do for you?"
Isn't that what one should reasonably EXPECT to hear? Instead I get a huff of arrogance, something about an elder and all shouldn't be asking direct questions like this.. criminy.. what's he want, a hearty "thatta boy" and a pat on the back like the rest of his "qualified" advisors are seeming to give him?
Offering a "service", they are a PUBLIC entity, are they not? It would seem they would think they owe SOMEBODY some accountability.. apparently not me.
When I get a huff of arrogance and then silence before the thing even leaves the starting gate.. it's like a red flag to a bull.
"listen ham, I understand your concerns. I'll send you a brochure that outlines what our new program is all about, has details about staff, what we expect to accomplish.."
"anything else I can do for you?"
Offering a "service", they are a PUBLIC entity, are they not? It would seem they owe SOMEBODY some accountability..
When I get a huff of arrogance and then silence before the thing even leaves the starting gate.. it's like a red flag to a bull.
It is supposed to start this summer? Have you gotten the brochure yet? I mean ... he did offer ...
I'm not sure if they or such groups are public entities. People have rights to meet in private, so it would be interesting to see how much outside intervention there should be, from a legal stand point. This is not the military, so how many hours per day can they maintain "control" over these volunteers?
From an ethical view, it does seem some sort of ombudsman would be in order, from outside the group. I nominate Ham.
Of course back 20 years ago, people were being deprogrammed against their will ... obviously wrong. We don't know what this group is doing, but from the old TWI view, an outside information campaign would have maybe been helpful.
The internet makes that more practical now than then. When in residence, almost all our info was filtered through twi ... but I don't guess they ever read our mail or kept us off the phone. I wonder if they will allow cell phones while in training, or internet access? :unsure:
It is supposed to start this summer? Have you gotten the brochure yet? I mean ... he did offer ...
No, he didn't offer. I doubt they have ANY brochures.. or detailed information.
it's what you would normally expect though, wouldn't you think?
I'm not sure if they or such groups are public entities. People have rights to meet in private, so it would be interesting to see how much outside intervention there should be
Yeah. He shouldn't have advertised it on the web..
I think he has a public relations nightmare on his hands..
has a sketchy nebulous program, a here am I, chop my firewood and build my farm attitude, at least as far as a reasonable person might perceive..
has a website a fifth grader could design, and a disposable email address for contact..
no phone numbers, no addresses.. no details about who's on staff.. their qualifications, credentials..
it just SCREAMS for inquiry..
Here is one of their "competitor's" web pages.. notice the "few" differences..
Ha ... yes I did misread what you were saying ... and yes, I woould reasonably expect a nice reply. They are clearly small time... they just need 12 volunteers ... like the twelve apostles?
It is an interesting comparison. The other camps look pretty cool. Of course they a geared toward fun and discipleship, where as the new corps is for "leadership".
The in depth spiritual perception and awareness I acquired says the new way corps is not ready for prime time. And there are good reasons to question the corps principles as a founation.
But till we get more info, we can just surmise ... perhaps it is dying on the vine .. or they decided to be more secretive to keep prying eyes away.
since you, rhino, have nominated ham for the suggested s.o.w.e.r.s. volunteer ombudsman position, i would like to nominate rocky to be their public relations director!......from what i read of his around here recently, it is indeed a match made in heaven!...........whaddya think??............................peace.
ha ... well, we've already had a taste of how rocky would respond to criticism of the program.
As far as I know, Rocky's interests are more politics. My guess is his involvements revolve more around his desire to reach out politically ... and this and that other site are grass roots venues for that.
Ham, however, has been less ham handed ... he has sought out answers from the leaders. Maybe when the twelve arrive, ham could sneak in and get them to sign on with him in some official capacity ... for a ham union of sorts. They could strike for higher wages, longer breaks, better food. Then would be certified instructors, safer working conditions, health care coverage ... retirement benefits, vacation time ... oh, and no "firing" without due process.
Scary reading this stuff and seeing the same old results from the same old characters.
The conclusion I have come to is that TWI leadership principles as taught to everyone AND ESPECIALLY to the Way Corps are beyond flawed, they are downright hurtful. All of these former leaders coming out of TWI at various times and trying to put new wine in old skins and then what happens? They burst.
I just read the comments about WC of CFF teaching - the core word seemed to be BORING! This seems to be the MO for all of these groups - study,study, study and never do anything real in the community. And then of course the CONTROL issues that come up - who is going to submit to whom, so if this cannot be negotiated amongst former Corps then we end up with 50 or more little splinter groups all headed up by Men Of God (snicker). Whose books, tapes, cliches are the best?
The smart people have moved on.
I have seen some Way Corps successfully move on. Many get stuck in these groups because they are comfortable with the various leaders & people personality wise, and they are familiar with the teaching cliches. I know of one guy 7th Corps who is a big mental head case and should really be locked up by now but powerful relatives cover for him.
Overall I would have to say while some good was learned, that overall the principles taught in the Way Corps were a disaster. I would prefer to forget them, ignore them, and follow the words of Jesus only. Hang out with your neighbors - the people who live next door and down the street.
Build a new better legacy than the one built by VP and Craig and Geer.
Gilligan, wow what a great post!! I was never in The Corps, but I do think the men you mentioned, built some some terrible legacies. They caused so much pain, and heartache, for so many. God forgive them for their sins.
Okay, so ssri's are not YOUR drug of choice, no problem, my mistake.
You MADE my point. Thank you.
Not at all... I can't imagine your sad that I don't go there to bug you any more.
AGAIN. THIS thread, as started by Gilligan, was a legitimate discussion.
Ham, on the other hand, has some serious screws loose and that other discussion is some pretty solid evidence thereof, if he (and you) want to try to make anyone believe it was anything but a way to slam someone that you really (regardless of whether Ham has met the young man) DON'T know.
Folks, I know this is an old thread, but please be mindful of saying that Ham has some loose screws. In my opinion, Ham is brilliant. I don't always understand him, but I think he has a big heart, and some great posts. At times, he is over my head, but I think the problem lies with me, not him.
Folks, I know this is an old thread, but please be mindful of saying that Ham has some loose screws. In my opinion, Ham is brilliant. I don't always understand him, but I think he has a big heart, and some great posts. At times, he is over my head, but I think the problem lies with me, not him.
I'm confident that it's difficult to develop a robust understanding today of whatever discussions, however amicable or not, took place 10 years ago based solely on the postings on GSC.
I'm confident that it's difficult to develop a robust understanding today of whatever discussions, however amicable or not, took place 10 years ago based solely on the postings on GSC.
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Rocky
"rocky wants..."?
My problem?
I simply complimented Gilligan and pointed out that THIS thread was about the ideas.
And Ham's thread is about bashing a person without basis. Why do you say this, here on this thread, is a problem?
Better up your Rx for prozac there rhino.
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rhino
I take no meds ... well, 2 or 4 beers most days ...
You said the thread was "nasty gossip" ... I said that was wrong ... from the start of that thread, you seemed to miss the point that it was specifically about reusing the corps principles ... that some kid name victor paul wierwille is going to "coordinate" it just adds to the weirdness. And then there is the rather mysterious backing by CFF ...
I get my way on the political forum? Like you are the only one that can offer other opinions? Dude ... your opinion of your (ex) role there may be a tad inflated ...
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Rocky
Okay, so ssri's are not YOUR drug of choice, no problem, my mistake.
You MADE my point. Thank you.
Not at all... I can't imagine your sad that I don't go there to bug you any more.
AGAIN. THIS thread, as started by Gilligan, was a legitimate discussion.
Ham, on the other hand, has some serious screws loose and that other discussion is some pretty solid evidence thereof, if he (and you) want to try to make anyone believe it was anything but a way to slam someone that you really (regardless of whether Ham has met the young man) DON'T know.
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rhino
You aren't paying attention if you think it was about slamming V2P2. If anything, he is in the victim role, though if he follows in the other corps traditions, he may learn to victimize as well.
Sure people can learn from past mistakes ... but this starts with no improvements or changes evident ... it is a replica of the principles. For one, I'd change the principle of practicing believing to bring material abundance to you and the ministry. Is empire building for me and/or the ministry the primary point of believing? Seems more secular than spiritual, and it ties the person in as a money maker for the ministry.
If "believing" even works, why not believe for effective ministering ... ?
And why "go forth as leaders and workers" ... what areas of concern interest and need? People are already "forth". Do they need to be moved around for CFF's benefit? Is that a God principle, or just something that helps the ministry coerce people into doing their bidding, and keeping "their people" on the move and available? ... A lifetime of moving around with the main attachment being the ministry?
Itseems like a set up from the start. And if there is anything ambiguous about the direction the principles are supposed to lead one, there is a 30 years history of twi to refer back to, with plenty of elders with the pattern etched in their brains.
And that it is the second coming of Victor Paul Wierwille ... is this like the second adam? this is the good one? That is just too weird to not mention.
Plenty to discuss ....
Here is the middle of the thread ... if people want to check it out for themselves.
It appears CFF is sponsoring or connected with this thing, which uses the old corps principles verbatim. Then it seems "staffed" by old wayfers. But the young Vic Paul wierwille is coordinating?
They put it on the web, so it is open for discussion.
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Ham
I won't contest that. The screws loose part that is.
what makes YOU such a bargain?
As far as my perceptions are concerned, I went to the source FIRST. "This really looks to me like you are trying to resurrect a slip-shod, abusive and controlling environment.. are you gonna use the "we can send you home any time we want" clause as some kind of threat when they don't measure up to YOUR standards?"
"Tell me if I'm getting this wrong.. that's why I'm asking YOU, bucko.."
Plus a half a dozen or so other relevant questions.
like who are the board answerable to..
what are their qualifications to run something like this..
There is no real advertised curriculum. What are you gonna do, just make it up as you go along?
Honestly, I think the boy can't get a real job with a bachellor's in history..
the kid hasn't been around the block even once in life yet. What the hell gives him the qualifications to run somebody else's life?
Rocky seems to hold to the argument that "it's none of your business".
Last time I checked, I'm SUPPOSED to be an elder in the same church he's in.. if that doesn't make it my business, I don't know what else will.
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rhino
On many levels I think, if you inwardly question something going on as potentially harmful, there is perhaps an obligation to speak up. The sooner the better.
Whether it is consumer advocacy, or brotherly love, or a concerned citizenry ... pointing out the potential for harm is a good thing. The more discussion from people outside their little world, the better, it would seem. And what place has more qualified observers than here? :)
A dialogue would be better ... if they can't/won't answer some direct questions ... are they really ready to start molding young minds ... out on an isolated farm? It is a voluntary program, but I even wonder if the volunteers don't have some legal rights to consider. Perhaps they need an outside advocate like Mr. Ham.
And from a more aloof view, it is interesting to think of this new thang, in light of how we got swept away in that old thang. It is somewhat easier to analyze the new version, since our emotions are less directly involved. So it is easier to see how this could lead to manipulation, than to accept that we were manipulated by similar lofty promises ...
As we used to say ... you got the burden, Mr. Ham ...
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Ham
Yeah, I agree. I tried that first..
If v2p2 is the p.r. man, he has failed miserably..
"listen ham, I understand your concerns. I'll send you a brochure that outlines what our new program is all about, has details about staff, what we expect to accomplish.."
"anything else I can do for you?"
Isn't that what one should reasonably EXPECT to hear? Instead I get a huff of arrogance, something about an elder and all shouldn't be asking direct questions like this.. criminy.. what's he want, a hearty "thatta boy" and a pat on the back like the rest of his "qualified" advisors are seeming to give him?
Offering a "service", they are a PUBLIC entity, are they not? It would seem they would think they owe SOMEBODY some accountability.. apparently not me.
When I get a huff of arrogance and then silence before the thing even leaves the starting gate.. it's like a red flag to a bull.
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rhino
It is supposed to start this summer? Have you gotten the brochure yet? I mean ... he did offer ...
I'm not sure if they or such groups are public entities. People have rights to meet in private, so it would be interesting to see how much outside intervention there should be, from a legal stand point. This is not the military, so how many hours per day can they maintain "control" over these volunteers?
From an ethical view, it does seem some sort of ombudsman would be in order, from outside the group. I nominate Ham.
Of course back 20 years ago, people were being deprogrammed against their will ... obviously wrong. We don't know what this group is doing, but from the old TWI view, an outside information campaign would have maybe been helpful.
The internet makes that more practical now than then. When in residence, almost all our info was filtered through twi ... but I don't guess they ever read our mail or kept us off the phone. I wonder if they will allow cell phones while in training, or internet access? :unsure:
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Ham
it's what you would normally expect though, wouldn't you think?
Yeah. He shouldn't have advertised it on the web..
I think he has a public relations nightmare on his hands..
has a sketchy nebulous program, a here am I, chop my firewood and build my farm attitude, at least as far as a reasonable person might perceive..
has a website a fifth grader could design, and a disposable email address for contact..
no phone numbers, no addresses.. no details about who's on staff.. their qualifications, credentials..
it just SCREAMS for inquiry..
Here is one of their "competitor's" web pages.. notice the "few" differences..
http://www.wisconsinumc.org/camps/#
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Ham
And notice, a complete outsider has access to information about staff, curriculum.. even phone numbers, hours of operation, etc., etc...
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Ham
Here's another one:
http://www.christinthetetons.org/index.asp...eAction=COMPANY
I would call that an "extreme" adventure.
compare:
http://sowersonline.com/default.aspx
where would you take YOUR kid?
If my kid had to chop and stack firewood and herd farm animals at camp, even given a "scholarship" to go there..
I'd be p#ssed..
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rhino
Ha ... yes I did misread what you were saying ... and yes, I woould reasonably expect a nice reply. They are clearly small time... they just need 12 volunteers ... like the twelve apostles?
It is an interesting comparison. The other camps look pretty cool. Of course they a geared toward fun and discipleship, where as the new corps is for "leadership".
The in depth spiritual perception and awareness I acquired says the new way corps is not ready for prime time. And there are good reasons to question the corps principles as a founation.
But till we get more info, we can just surmise ... perhaps it is dying on the vine .. or they decided to be more secretive to keep prying eyes away.
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Ham
Small perhaps, but they must have a plan.
Or maybe it's a pt barnum tactic:
"hurry now, hurry now.. only room for the twelve specially chosen.."
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DontWorryBeHappy
hi again ham......and hello to you too, rhino!
since you, rhino, have nominated ham for the suggested s.o.w.e.r.s. volunteer ombudsman position, i would like to nominate rocky to be their public relations director!......from what i read of his around here recently, it is indeed a match made in heaven!...........whaddya think??............................peace.
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rhino
ha ... well, we've already had a taste of how rocky would respond to criticism of the program.
As far as I know, Rocky's interests are more politics. My guess is his involvements revolve more around his desire to reach out politically ... and this and that other site are grass roots venues for that.
Ham, however, has been less ham handed ... he has sought out answers from the leaders. Maybe when the twelve arrive, ham could sneak in and get them to sign on with him in some official capacity ... for a ham union of sorts. They could strike for higher wages, longer breaks, better food. Then would be certified instructors, safer working conditions, health care coverage ... retirement benefits, vacation time ... oh, and no "firing" without due process.
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Ham
gasp, wheeze..
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Grace Valerie Claire
Gilligan, wow what a great post!! I was never in The Corps, but I do think the men you mentioned, built some some terrible legacies. They caused so much pain, and heartache, for so many. God forgive them for their sins.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Folks, I know this is an old thread, but please be mindful of saying that Ham has some loose screws. In my opinion, Ham is brilliant. I don't always understand him, but I think he has a big heart, and some great posts. At times, he is over my head, but I think the problem lies with me, not him.
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Rocky
That was nearly ten years ago.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Yes, I know. I said that it was an old thread.
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Rocky
I'm confident that it's difficult to develop a robust understanding today of whatever discussions, however amicable or not, took place 10 years ago based solely on the postings on GSC.
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Grace Valerie Claire
Rocky, perhaps.
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