I have met a potpourri of Way Corp folks who have exited since mid 80'd still trying to relearn but hang on to the faithful principles they have been taught. I have seen those who are deeply troubled in thier hearts and afraid to admit they were abused and strive to live what they know..having no freedom to realy express thier hearts because of fear or a mixed reality and lost in Godly sorrow..my heart hurts for them, because of the baggage they carry. It's undue..they gave what they had!!
Does anyone see a difference between "old" Corps and newer? Maybe Zero Corps to 4th or 5th? Then maybe 5th to 10th? Gee, I dont even know how many there were. What Corps was in residence during PoP...1986? What Corps was in when the fired LCM...when was that? What Corps are they on now?
Let's see, "ministry year" 1985-86: 15th WC would have been on their interim, so 14th & 16th were in residence 11th & 12th FC in residence, 13th FC practicum.
What Corps was in when the fired LCM...when was that?
Martindale was fired in 2000. "Ministry year" 1999-2000: 28th & 29th were in residence, 30th was apprentice, 31st was candidate (at some point they changed the program from Year 1: apprentice, Year 2: residence, Year 3: interim, Year 4: residence to Year 1: Candidate (similar to old apprentiice), Year 2: Apprentice (required to lead a Way Disciple Group or work on staff) Years 3&4: Residence)
What Corps are they on now?
"Ministry Year" 2006-07: 36th & 37th are in residence, 38th & 39th are apprentice and candidate respectively. they elimnated family Corps as a separate entity a while back.
In the mid-nineties they stopped referring to Way Corps by number and started referring to them by the year of graduation.
i think they are in the 20's and there are 2 members
Pretty close, I do't think that they've had a Corps group in double digits since the late nineties
As if it even matters, but thought I'd correct one of those numbers..
In 2000 when LCM was fired there was the 28th, 29th, AND 30th in-residence training. The 29th Corp was the first to go through the new wave of 2 back to back residence years but went parallel with the 28th and graduated the same year, the 30th was in their first year in-residence also at that time and graduated the following year - Jully/2001..
So....... does anyone see a difference in the splinter groups run by the early part of 0-14th WC/12th FC.....to compare with any run by someone in the later part...to compare with any run by someone from 15th WC/13thFC and higher?
Normally, if I want a problem solved, I go to the highest person in a ‘normal’ organization/business (one that serves people), because he knows the most, can make the quickest decision, and has the clout to get it done.
But, I learned long ago that if you have a problem with the IRS (imo an abnormal organization that hurts people), you want to talk to the newest person. The guy who’s been there for years has swallowed their song and dance, but the newest guy might still have a heart. (And, he won’t be there long. Their turnover is quite high because, imo, people begin to realize the inequities of the place and can’t stomach it.)
Anyway, I agree with rhino.....don't think it’s the principles that are hurtful (though knowing what I know today I think I'd write some different ones but don't worry, I'm not starting an organization). Anyway, I think the problem was the examples of how to live the principles. So I wondered if there might have been better examples in the earlier years and thus better followers who might therefore run better splinters?
Also.......does anyone know a successful splinter run a non-Corps ex-Wayfer?
I have seen some Way Corps successfully move on. Many get stuck in these groups because they are comfortable with the various leaders & people personality wise, and they are familiar with the teaching cliches. I know of one guy 7th Corps who is a big mental head case and should really be locked up by now but powerful relatives cover for him.
Overall I would have to say while some good was learned, that overall the principles taught in the Way Corps were a disaster. I would prefer to forget them, ignore them, and follow the words of Jesus only. Hang out with your neighbors - the people who live next door and down the street.
Build a new better legacy than the one built by VP and Craig and Geer.
Welcome to GSC, Gilligan!...Yeah – I agree with you on the Way Corps being a disastrous program. And I’ve often wondered why some former Corps stay entrenched in those life-sucking principles…I dunno…Maybe for some people after investing so much [time, money and sacrificed careers, personal interests, relationships, etc.] it’s kind of hard to admit they made a bad investment – and by golly they’re gonna make it pay off some how.
Maybe it's just me, but when I got recruited for The Way Corps, the context was what I brought to the table. The whole draw for me was what I could uniquely contribute. I got talked into it, because somebody wanted my skills, and who I knew, and who I was. Sorry if this sounds wierd, but it's true.
Somehow, somewhere, that changed. I don't exactly know when and where and how, but it seems the Way Corps became what we can mold you into. Forget who you are, and what you bring into it, we just want to mold you, clone you, and forget about who you are. Nobody cares.
When that happened? along the way? Don't know. But it did.
So....... does anyone see a difference in the splinter groups run by the early part of 0-14th WC/12th FC.....to compare with any run by someone in the later part...to compare with any run by someone from 15th WC/13thFC and higher?
Normally, if I want a problem solved, I go to the highest person in a ‘normal’ organization/business (one that serves people), because he knows the most, can make the quickest decision, and has the clout to get it done.
But, I learned long ago that if you have a problem with the IRS (imo an abnormal organization that hurts people), you want to talk to the newest person. The guy who’s been there for years has swallowed their song and dance, but the newest guy might still have a heart. (And, he won’t be there long. Their turnover is quite high because, imo, people begin to realize the inequities of the place and can’t stomach it.)
Anyway, I agree with rhino.....don't think it’s the principles that are hurtful (though knowing what I know today I think I'd write some different ones but don't worry, I'm not starting an organization). Anyway, I think the problem was the examples of how to live the principles. So I wondered if there might have been better examples in the earlier years and thus better followers who might therefore run better splinters?
Also.......does anyone know a successful splinter run a non-Corps ex-Wayfer?
Good questions and points! My gut reaction is that the earlier corps started out with more heart as a group (with individuals this could be way off) but your point about being in longer - they were probably jaded in ways that they themselves could not see and may still not see if they haven't disengaged and relaxed. I personally think that the earlier grads had more heart as they were closer to the "move of the Holy Spirit" in the early 70's. The one that VP co-opted without God's permission. But there could be good people in the later Corps - I think their eventual heart after twi would be dependent on what they bought into every step of the way.
But your question about a successful splinter run by non-Corps? Cannot think of one. This hits me two ways - the people who wanted to be leaders and revvies and important would have joined the corps - egos. And so the ego would have stayed in gear (no pun) after twi. I can think of some good people who wanted to lead after who were not corps - but no-one followed - they did not have the right pedigree. I remember a nice guy in this class asking a mutual friend to start supporting him and his ministry - the friend was sending money to Dale Sides - and he pretty much blew off the non-corps guy, even though the guy had had an amazing positive impact on his marriage and his life.
As far as Way Corps principles I am thinking of the thoughts and beliefs that become the bedrock of how these leaders treat people both in action and in their attitudes toward them. Leadership cliques seem to have become a problem in the ces material on this site, which would tell me it was a lot like HQ and the WC training sites and the way they treated local fellowship people - which was not good overall.
Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need...
Along with other things, this Principle promises so much and delivers so little. Sounds like it means, help the homeless, set up a soup kitchen, help deprived kids, look after battered wives and families, visit prisoners, help delinquent kids avoid becoming prisoners, get your hands dirty DOING something for somebody else ... lots of other *community*-focused stuff.
But that was Way double-speak. The missing words at the end are "... to TWI's corporate ego."
Anybody with skills in those and similar areas soon found themselves being discouraged from using their skills in ... can't remember the expression, but the general thrust was to along the lines of "dog returning to its vomit" and "salt trodden under foot as worthless" and to belittle "secular" skills and desire to help as something so much less than you could give by "serving" in the household.
Teaching on my wow year (early 80s)from Corps : Don't Dial a Derelect.
We were meeting many many poor young people with minimum wage jobs, crappy apartments--or maybe they just slept at several different friend's houses because they didn't really have a place. Getting the money together for the class was a huge issue for these kids.
Our corps leadership wanted us to move up into professional, middle class people.
A quicky, F9 was the first corps to do back to back years.
Technically, the first 3 Corps did two back-to-back years and then graduated. We did have a "field" experience for a few weeks during the second year, being sent out by VP to certain cities to get a class together or don't come back. I was in the 2nd Corps. (everyone came back).
1. Internationals as well as FC usually did two years back to back. It was hard to convince the issuers of the US study visa to grant a one year study visa then out and then another one year study visa, and they would not grant a three year study visa. So Internationals did Yr 1 Apprentice; Yrs 2 and 3 - in rez; Yr 4 =- practicum year (often helping at a Branch or going WoW). Same for FC but I think that was to prevent too much disruption to the education of children.
2. I know two successful ministries run by non-graduated Corps ex-Wayfers. Both international; neither huge, but they are both growing. In different countries. One wasn't Corps at all and the other left after a few months in rez.
Okay, Rhino, that was hilarious! I hadn't thought of the Corps principles for years, and I really wish I had applied number five more!!
Hey JudyB ...
ha ... you must be doing a lot of reading to find that ... I've been hanging around greasspot for a couple years now, but before that, the thought of twi hardly even crossed my mind for about a decade ... so it is a little weird when you hear the old religion brought up with all the phraseology ... a little spooky at first :)
but yeah, but I was much too rigid in doctrine during those 11 twi years ... then I find not only would it have been more fun outside of twi, but they were even partying without me inside twi ... :o
oh well ... I made up for a little of it, and I'm not dead yet ... still time ... may be a little more difficult to find fine young thangs now though, the drooling kinda gives me away ...
welcome to the greasy spot ... there is another thread about the new improved corps principles in another small way corps like group with another victor paul wierwille, or V2P2 as he is affectionately called here ...
welcome to the greasy spot ... there is another thread about the new improved corps principles in another small way corps like group with another victor paul wierwille, or V2P2 as he is affectionately called here ...
btw, Gilligan, I think this discussion you started is more appropriately focused on the actual and legitimate topic for discussion (the WC principles) than that other thread rhino mentioned, which is more like a judgement on a person that Ham (who started that thread) has never met.
It is not gossip at all ... it is questions based on the web site. ... the corps is revived with another victor paul wierwille ... how spooky is that?
for a site that has ex corps and ex wayfers ... it is chat worthy ...
rocky wants to label it his way ... that is his problem ... I think his comments are nasty ... calling our good querying into way corps two ... nasty gossip ... good grief ...
are they going to serve borscht? and wheat berries?
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excathedra
and welcome
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likeaneagle
I have met a potpourri of Way Corp folks who have exited since mid 80'd still trying to relearn but hang on to the faithful principles they have been taught. I have seen those who are deeply troubled in thier hearts and afraid to admit they were abused and strive to live what they know..having no freedom to realy express thier hearts because of fear or a mixed reality and lost in Godly sorrow..my heart hurts for them, because of the baggage they carry. It's undue..they gave what they had!!
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therebutforgrace
Hi Gilligan, welcome to GS.
Does anyone see a difference between "old" Corps and newer? Maybe Zero Corps to 4th or 5th? Then maybe 5th to 10th? Gee, I dont even know how many there were. What Corps was in residence during PoP...1986? What Corps was in when the fired LCM...when was that? What Corps are they on now?
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excathedra
i think they are in the 20's and there are 2 members
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rhino
I don't see much wrong with the actual corps principles. Lets see how well I remember them ...
1. Acquire an indepth spiritual perceptiona nd awareness.
2. Study to show yourself approved ... blah blah
3. Physical trianing, making your physical body, the vehicle of communication of the word, as vital as possible.
4. Go forth as leader and workers in areas of concern, interst and need.
5. Drink a lot of alcohol, convince young fine things to have sex with you, ignore numbers one thru four.
But really, except for 5, they were OK, it was the execution that was lame. It is easy to write up some noble ideals.
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Oakspear
In the mid-nineties they stopped referring to Way Corps by number and started referring to them by the year of graduation.
Pretty close, I do't think that they've had a Corps group in double digits since the late ninetiesLink to comment
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TrustAndObey
Oakspear,
As if it even matters, but thought I'd correct one of those numbers..
In 2000 when LCM was fired there was the 28th, 29th, AND 30th in-residence training. The 29th Corp was the first to go through the new wave of 2 back to back residence years but went parallel with the 28th and graduated the same year, the 30th was in their first year in-residence also at that time and graduated the following year - Jully/2001..
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rich
A quicky, F9 was the first corps to do back to back years.
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therebutforgrace
Thanks, Oakspear and TrustandObey....
So....... does anyone see a difference in the splinter groups run by the early part of 0-14th WC/12th FC.....to compare with any run by someone in the later part...to compare with any run by someone from 15th WC/13thFC and higher?
Normally, if I want a problem solved, I go to the highest person in a ‘normal’ organization/business (one that serves people), because he knows the most, can make the quickest decision, and has the clout to get it done.
But, I learned long ago that if you have a problem with the IRS (imo an abnormal organization that hurts people), you want to talk to the newest person. The guy who’s been there for years has swallowed their song and dance, but the newest guy might still have a heart. (And, he won’t be there long. Their turnover is quite high because, imo, people begin to realize the inequities of the place and can’t stomach it.)
Anyway, I agree with rhino.....don't think it’s the principles that are hurtful (though knowing what I know today I think I'd write some different ones but don't worry, I'm not starting an organization). Anyway, I think the problem was the examples of how to live the principles. So I wondered if there might have been better examples in the earlier years and thus better followers who might therefore run better splinters?
Also.......does anyone know a successful splinter run a non-Corps ex-Wayfer?
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T-Bone
Welcome to GSC, Gilligan!...Yeah – I agree with you on the Way Corps being a disastrous program. And I’ve often wondered why some former Corps stay entrenched in those life-sucking principles…I dunno…Maybe for some people after investing so much [time, money and sacrificed careers, personal interests, relationships, etc.] it’s kind of hard to admit they made a bad investment – and by golly they’re gonna make it pay off some how.
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ex10
Maybe it's just me, but when I got recruited for The Way Corps, the context was what I brought to the table. The whole draw for me was what I could uniquely contribute. I got talked into it, because somebody wanted my skills, and who I knew, and who I was. Sorry if this sounds wierd, but it's true.
Somehow, somewhere, that changed. I don't exactly know when and where and how, but it seems the Way Corps became what we can mold you into. Forget who you are, and what you bring into it, we just want to mold you, clone you, and forget about who you are. Nobody cares.
When that happened? along the way? Don't know. But it did.
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Gilligan
Good questions and points! My gut reaction is that the earlier corps started out with more heart as a group (with individuals this could be way off) but your point about being in longer - they were probably jaded in ways that they themselves could not see and may still not see if they haven't disengaged and relaxed. I personally think that the earlier grads had more heart as they were closer to the "move of the Holy Spirit" in the early 70's. The one that VP co-opted without God's permission. But there could be good people in the later Corps - I think their eventual heart after twi would be dependent on what they bought into every step of the way.
But your question about a successful splinter run by non-Corps? Cannot think of one. This hits me two ways - the people who wanted to be leaders and revvies and important would have joined the corps - egos. And so the ego would have stayed in gear (no pun) after twi. I can think of some good people who wanted to lead after who were not corps - but no-one followed - they did not have the right pedigree. I remember a nice guy in this class asking a mutual friend to start supporting him and his ministry - the friend was sending money to Dale Sides - and he pretty much blew off the non-corps guy, even though the guy had had an amazing positive impact on his marriage and his life.
As far as Way Corps principles I am thinking of the thoughts and beliefs that become the bedrock of how these leaders treat people both in action and in their attitudes toward them. Leadership cliques seem to have become a problem in the ces material on this site, which would tell me it was a lot like HQ and the WC training sites and the way they treated local fellowship people - which was not good overall.
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Twinky
Along with other things, this Principle promises so much and delivers so little. Sounds like it means, help the homeless, set up a soup kitchen, help deprived kids, look after battered wives and families, visit prisoners, help delinquent kids avoid becoming prisoners, get your hands dirty DOING something for somebody else ... lots of other *community*-focused stuff.
But that was Way double-speak. The missing words at the end are "... to TWI's corporate ego."
Anybody with skills in those and similar areas soon found themselves being discouraged from using their skills in ... can't remember the expression, but the general thrust was to along the lines of "dog returning to its vomit" and "salt trodden under foot as worthless" and to belittle "secular" skills and desire to help as something so much less than you could give by "serving" in the household.
Folks, TWI missed a real recruiting ground.
Just as well. Needy people have enough problems.
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Bramble
Teaching on my wow year (early 80s)from Corps : Don't Dial a Derelect.
We were meeting many many poor young people with minimum wage jobs, crappy apartments--or maybe they just slept at several different friend's houses because they didn't really have a place. Getting the money together for the class was a huge issue for these kids.
Our corps leadership wanted us to move up into professional, middle class people.
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judyb
Okay, Rhino, that was hilarious! I hadn't thought of the Corps principles for years, and I really wish I had applied number five more!!
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JeffSjo
Hi Judyb,
It's nice to meet you. I hope things go well for you here at Greasespot.
This older thread fits some of the newer conversations here to a T and I'm glad you brought it to the front.
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penworks
Technically, the first 3 Corps did two back-to-back years and then graduated. We did have a "field" experience for a few weeks during the second year, being sent out by VP to certain cities to get a class together or don't come back. I was in the 2nd Corps. (everyone came back).
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Twinky
Two points from this thread:
1. Internationals as well as FC usually did two years back to back. It was hard to convince the issuers of the US study visa to grant a one year study visa then out and then another one year study visa, and they would not grant a three year study visa. So Internationals did Yr 1 Apprentice; Yrs 2 and 3 - in rez; Yr 4 =- practicum year (often helping at a Branch or going WoW). Same for FC but I think that was to prevent too much disruption to the education of children.
2. I know two successful ministries run by non-graduated Corps ex-Wayfers. Both international; neither huge, but they are both growing. In different countries. One wasn't Corps at all and the other left after a few months in rez.
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rhino
Hey JudyB ...
ha ... you must be doing a lot of reading to find that ... I've been hanging around greasspot for a couple years now, but before that, the thought of twi hardly even crossed my mind for about a decade ... so it is a little weird when you hear the old religion brought up with all the phraseology ... a little spooky at first :)
but yeah, but I was much too rigid in doctrine during those 11 twi years ... then I find not only would it have been more fun outside of twi, but they were even partying without me inside twi ... :o
oh well ... I made up for a little of it, and I'm not dead yet ... still time ... may be a little more difficult to find fine young thangs now though, the drooling kinda gives me away ...
welcome to the greasy spot ... there is another thread about the new improved corps principles in another small way corps like group with another victor paul wierwille, or V2P2 as he is affectionately called here ...
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Rocky
btw, Gilligan, I think this discussion you started is more appropriately focused on the actual and legitimate topic for discussion (the WC principles) than that other thread rhino mentioned, which is more like a judgement on a person that Ham (who started that thread) has never met.
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Ham
Not true. I know and met both boy and pappy..
they might not want to admit to it now..
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Rocky
doesn't matter. this thread is about a legitimate discussion. the other thread was mostly just nasty gossip.
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Ham
Actually, it was a LEGITIMATE concern, and last-ditch effort to try to get SOMEBODY to wake up from their delusion of godhood style of madness.
The "legacy" of the vey corps principles ended up being one of abuse and failure.
It wasn't "just a couple of rotten apples".
By resurrecting it, "junior" and gang get everything that goes with it.
Too negative you say?
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rhino
It is not gossip at all ... it is questions based on the web site. ... the corps is revived with another victor paul wierwille ... how spooky is that?
for a site that has ex corps and ex wayfers ... it is chat worthy ...
rocky wants to label it his way ... that is his problem ... I think his comments are nasty ... calling our good querying into way corps two ... nasty gossip ... good grief ...
are they going to serve borscht? and wheat berries?
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