This is a good thread. I love the responses here. Linda's post on the first page put so well what I was thinking, too. (About mutual respect) I haven't run into "preachy" vegetarians in recent years also, but I remember a few obnoxious preachy ones in my early years in TWI. I s'pose people like that and the ones Ron describes that picket eateries and do the handouts to kids--the zealots, are what helps cause animosity between "omnivores" and Vegans. (As do all the zealots of each cause, huh?)
Vegan, I bet pro-life protesters get things thrown at them, too. And I bet some of those protesters can be pretty obnoxious themselves--I remember a lady who was the neighbor of one of my cleaning accounts many years ago. I'm anti-abortion, but this woman was downright annoying-- and I bet she didn't get any "converts" to her cause with her attitude-- and she used her children in her protests!
Anyway, several of VeganXTC's and SafariVista's posts on here have triggered my own looking into what I eat-- and the qualities of the foods I feed my family. It's been "food for thought" (pun intended)
I don't think I'll ever become vegetarian--and definately don't think i could ever go vegan cuz I do love red meat and cheese too much. On the other hand, we eat too much of these and I have been looking into alternatives--such as TVP and nut milks. I have really appreciated your posts! And I would love if ya would get down to the kitchen with some recipes-- I asked ya for your Neatloaf recipe in the Meatloaf thread.
Is this thread going to be about PETA and similiar organizations, or about vegans and the way they individually come across to meateaters? I don't wish to discuss Ron's points if the thread is on the latter. I see them as two very separate issues, as not all vegans support PETA, and not all PETA supporters are vegan.
~HAP
There is a prime example of secret thread killer rules posters aren't informed about from the beginning.
Some circles call them control freaks.........
Ron G, please submit posts on special 3x5 index cards so the controllers can approve subject matter before their precious subjects wonder where they don't want them to.
But then, the reason I have trouble with animal rights activists (all veg*ns are) lies in the first time and the times that followed where their actions caused the putting down of more animals than I care to remember, because their animals had rights to. Now that's not the "proper" thread subject is it?
Psalmie, that's cool you're trying different foods! And I'll be sure to post my "neatloaf" recipe.
Ductape said:
animal rights activists (all veg*ns are)
Although many are, there are just as many that are not. Some eat a plant based diet for health reasons, some for religious reasons (seventh-day adventists, some Buddists, Jains, some Hindus), some for ecological reasons, some for econmonic reasons, (dried beans are cheaper than hamburger or chicken), and there are some people who just don't like the taste of meat.
And there are some animal rights activists who do cruel and even illegal things. But there are many who don't. Some bought veggie burgers at Burger King to give away so people could try them without spening their hard earned money. Some give abused or neglected animals homes. Some fight with their wallet, and refuse to buy products or services that exploit animals, including humans.
I probably didn't name this thread properly. Again, I do not care what someone chooses for their diet. Be it animal, vegetable, animate, inanimate, it makes no difference to me. But to the point, I think that a lot of people lash out at people who say they are Veg*'s because they immediately assume they are some kind of radical, pinko commie activist.
Activists, of any type, can be good. Or bad. Depends on which side of the argument your on. :) But seriously, I have no problem with the PRINCIPLE of wanting to stop animal cruelty. But now the question is, who's definition of cruelty do we use? Some Peta members will tell you that keeping a pet dog is cruelty. Some think that riding horses is cruel. To the ones here who are supporters of Peta, how do you feel about ALF and ELF? Would you support them also? I wonder because I would think that there are even certain issues with Peta that not all activists would support.
By the way, someone made the statement that ALL Veg*'s are animal rights activists. I don't believe that is true. I think there are many who just think it's healthier. And good for them! Takes a lot of discipline, I'm sure.
I'm not sure what it is about vegetarians and their beliefs, etc. I dont think its taught, its just a sense of belief they have that they feel that by saving animals and not eating them that is the right thing and they need to spread the word. Could it be the action of killing that makes them feel that it's wrong to eat meat?
I only say this because I have an 8 year old who is strictly vegetarian. She is not vegan because I have not explained to her the concept or she probably would go vegan. I think that as a growing child she needs some of the proteins brought on by animal by products and so I havent brought up the subject of veganism.
But as innocent as an 8 year old is, she will truely tell you that she will not eat meat of any kind because she doesnt believe in killing of animals. And she truly believes it in her heart. She has a passion about it that sometimes its hard to eat dinner with her because she will point out that we are eating meat and she isnt. So who taught her to think this way? Definitely not us, we all eat meat except her. I think its a sense of internal conviction that she feels that killing animals for the sense of eating them is wrong. Probably the same conviction that some other vegetarians have.
I have since the first of January, have turned vegetarian but will occassionally eat meat, if its mixed with the rest of the dish, but I personally do not brag about it or try to convince others that it is the right thing to do.
I have a couple of friends who claim to be Vegan and they aren't radical or weird. Aside from the food choices you wouldn't know they were different. Well ok they are different but not because of being Vegan, only because they are into geeky stuff like me. we are all techno geeks. That aside, they are wonderful people who look at their choice as a healthy choice. They DO disagree with animal cruelty but aren't out picketing and enjoy the skin care products I sell (and they are men) because there are no animal bi-products in them. So there are standards that these guys adhere to.
My one friend once told me it was a religious experience for him. I knew him before his vegan conversion and he was a very sick man. Always tired and a little overweight and I would often worry about him and check on him to see if he was doing ok. Now he is trim says he's never felt better and is happy with his life style. But it's HIS lifestyle and he doesn't try to push it on anyone else.
To the ones here who are supporters of Peta, how do you feel about ALF and ELF? Would you support them also? I wonder because I would think that there are even certain issues with Peta that not all activists would support.
I guess that's me. :)
There's a lot of stuff that PETA does that I don't agree with, like giving literature to children. As far as ALF goes, here's what their website says.
Official ALF guidelines are: (1) to liberate animals from places of abuse; (2) to inflict economic damage to industries that profit from animal exploitation; (3) to reveal the horrors and atrocities committed against animals behind locked doors, and (4) to take all necessary precautions against harming any human or nonhuman animals.
I do not condone the use of arson or destruction of property, as a means of getting your point across. But I don't think ALF is just trying to make a point. I think they're trying to save lives. How far would you go to save a life?
There is a prime example of secret thread killer rules posters aren't informed about from the beginning.
Some circles call them control freaks.........
Ron G, please submit posts on special 3x5 index cards so the controllers can approve subject matter before their precious subjects wonder where they don't want them to.
All I did was ask whether it was welcome to wander into the PETA pi$$ing match, or if this was going to be about be reactions to/from vegetarians/ vegan in general, as I originally understood the intent (perhaps mistakenly). I had no intent on controlling the thread Stickyone, but I do not see them as the same subject. Perhaps I should start a thread for you called "Be in a bad mood HERE==>".
It is quite easy to get protein RDA met. The RDA is primarily based body weight, I believe for a 50 year old male weighing 150 lbs, its it around 60gr. Female closer to 50gr. While steaks are high in protein, they are also high in fat, so there is a heavy (pardon the pun) trade-off. take your choices and enjoy some variations.
Coolchef a quick google search putting the word vegan in front of your favorite dish, (i.e. primavera, alfredo, .....) will yield any number of recipes to try. The biggest difficulty in my experience is melted vegan cheeses do not generally have the same consistency as standard cheeses. The overall tastes that can be derived however are every bit as good, and nutritionally wonderful. Good luck
(standard cheeses, being dairy products, is not vegan)
I do not condone the use of arson or destruction of property, as a means of getting your point across. But I don't think ALF is just trying to make a point. I think they're trying to save lives. How far would you go to save a life?
I'm glad you don't condone arson. But do you condone breaking and entering? Grand theft? Trespassing?
The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and Earth Liberation Front(ELF) are criminal groups. And should be prosecuted. You don't "make a point" by breaking into labs and stealing the research animals. And that is is MILD compared to some of their activities.
During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country. During the past several years, special interest extremism, as characterized by the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), has emerged as a serious terrorist threat. Generally, extremist groups engage in much activity that is protected by constitutional guarantees of free speech and assembly. Law enforcement becomes involved when the volatile talk of these groups transgresses into unlawful action. The FBI estimates that the ALF/ELF have committed more than 600 criminal acts in the United States since 1996, resulting in damages in excess of 43 million dollars.
What about animal testing that could result in saving lives? Are you against that? Ingrid Newkirk(Co-founder and president of PETA) IS.
PETA opposes all animal testing, even for research that is aimed at finding cures to life-threatening diseases. Says Newkirk, "Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it." She has often criticized such groups as the Pediatric AIDS Foundation, the March of Dimes, and the American Cancer Society for using laboratory animals in their research aimed at finding cures for diseases. When asked if she would oppose an experiment on 5,000 rats if it would result in a cure for AIDS, Newkirk replied, "Would you be opposed to experiments on your daughter if you knew it would save fifty million people?"
Once again, I want to point out that I myself love animals. If I saw someone intentionally infllicting pain on an animal for no reason I would more than likely try to stop them. I have no problem with people who don't want to see animals suffer for NO reason. But I would be hard pressed to tell someone dying of aids or cancer, well the bad news is, we can no longer do any research to find a cure for you. But hey! Good news is, no more lab rats will die in trying to find a cure! Oh, uh, sorry bout your luck.
I asked before but got no answer. Who get's to define what curelty is? Owning pets? Riding horses? Would you ban those? a LOT of peta members would. Would you ban hunting? MOST peta members would.
I'm asking these things seriously V-XTC. Not trying to be combative. Or trying to single you out...these questions for for anyone reading who supports animal rights and peta.
All I did was ask whether it was welcome to wander into the PETA pi$$ing match, or if this was going to be about be reactions to/from vegetarians/ vegan in general, as I originally understood the intent (perhaps mistakenly). I had no intent on controlling the thread Stickyone, but I do not see them as the same subject. Perhaps I should start a thread for you called "Be in a bad mood HERE==>". ~HAP
Do yourself a favor and start a thread " Reality Check Here", then maybe honesty will become your policy and you won't be trying to take other's free speech away.
It's like the animal rights activists that were protesting deer hunting in Florida, the lead spokeswoman shouted we don't want our children taught to murder animals. Some backwoods looking hunter replied, you teach your children what you want, I am teaching my children some valuable life lessons. The two had quite a heated exchange while the TV cameras were rolling. At one point the woman shouted " I am a lesbian and don't have children of my own, the world's children are our children!
To many times the reality of these agendas are floating in some weird twisted reality, some alternate universe. They always say we love animals and humans, but have no problem lowering the place of man to being equal with animals. Logic gives way to emotional (quite honestly) immaturity. I have known many veggies that were on their diets for self diagnosed health reasons. Quite wonderful people that often would sneak bites of meat at community cook-outs, the saying became:" we will have lots of meat if the veggies don't sneak it all".
But I have never meet a veg*n that isn't all about their animal rights movement. If diet is the reason, why won't they wear leather? That is not a diet choice.
But I have never meet a veg*n that isn't all about their animal rights movement. If diet is the reason, why won't they wear leather? That is not a diet choice.
I think lab rats have it good, unless they get chosen for some of the bad experiments. I suppose occassionally they are intentionally given a disease to see how they respond to various treatments. But other than that they are well fed and cared for.
But what upsets me is the treatment of sewer rats. Life is tough in the ghetto sewers. They get all sorts of diseases with no socialized medical plan. They are often cold and hungry and homeless. We should provide food stations for the underprivileged rats. And heat the sewers. Oh the humanity ratanity ... If you want to make a difference, adopt a rat family today ... just send me $10/month and I will send you pictures of your rat family, and how they are improving (you can save a lot more rats for $10/month than you can starving humans) ...
Ducttape- pffft. so now I am dishonest? That is sumpin nobody has called me in 40 years, and I doubt many here would agree with that assessment, certainly not Ron. hehe, its one of the few things I am not. What is it you consider dishonest of what I have said? Where did I try to control anything? Perhaps send it to me in a PM, if YOU think it doesn't belong here. I certainly wouldn't want to try and control where you answer. gad.
Ron- I would be surprised if you took my post that way, as many years as we have exchanged stuff, but if YOU took my post in any way as trying to control what you say, I apologize to you. Of course you and I disagree on many things, but we have always managed to do so good naturedly. The subtitle of the thread is "why some don't like them" (meaning vegit/vegans), and all I meant to do is ask if the originator of the thread wanted to go another direction with it, out of respect for him/her, not out of disrespect for your right to post.
Maybe it was that respect that was misunderstood by Ducttape. Oh well
I am outta here for the weekend, so enjoy yourselves.
Hap- thanks for the links that tell about protein, and for telling how to find vegan recipes. One of these days I'll get into the kitchen to post some of mine. Have a fun weekend!
Rhino- My daughter's roomate has two pet rats, but they're neither sewer or lab. They're spoiled though!
Ductape- Maybe some won't wear leather because they are allergic to it, or because they can't afford it. When I smoked cigarettes, I wouldn't wear suede because smoke stays in that fabric longer and smells really bad.
Bluzeman-Wow, lots of hard questions. I'll do my best to answer them all. Maybe I should do the quote thing?
I'm glad you don't condone arson. But do you condone breaking and entering? Grand theft? Trespassing?
The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and Earth Liberation Front(ELF) are criminal groups. And should be prosecuted. You don't "make a point" by breaking into labs and stealing the research animals. And that is is MILD compared to some of their activities.
During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country. During the past several years, special interest extremism, as characterized by the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), has emerged as a serious terrorist threat. Generally, extremist groups engage in much activity that is protected by constitutional guarantees of free speech and assembly. Law enforcement becomes involved when the volatile talk of these groups transgresses into unlawful action. The FBI estimates that the ALF/ELF have committed more than 600 criminal acts in the United States since 1996, resulting in damages in excess of 43 million dollars.
I do not condone breaking any law under any circumstance. And I think all crime should be punished. But I think the punishment should fit the crime. Labeling an animal rights activist a terrorist is a scare tactic from the McCarthy era.
What about animal testing that could result in saving lives? Are you against that? Ingrid Newkirk(Co-founder and president of PETA) IS.
PETA opposes all animal testing, even for research that is aimed at finding cures to life-threatening diseases. Says Newkirk, "Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it." She has often criticized such groups as the Pediatric AIDS Foundation, the March of Dimes, and the American Cancer Society for using laboratory animals in their research aimed at finding cures for diseases. When asked if she would oppose an experiment on 5,000 rats if it would result in a cure for AIDS, Newkirk replied, "Would you be opposed to experiments on your daughter if you knew it would save fifty million people?"
Once again, I want to point out that I myself love animals. If I saw someone intentionally infllicting pain on an animal for no reason I would more than likely try to stop them. I have no problem with people who don't want to see animals suffer for NO reason. But I would be hard pressed to tell someone dying of aids or cancer, well the bad news is, we can no longer do any research to find a cure for you. But hey! Good news is, no more lab rats will die in trying to find a cure! Oh, uh, sorry bout your luck.
I am against animal testing. There are better, faster, cheaper, and more reliable methods to find cures for human diseases. The thalidomide children, among many others, will tell you what works on animals won't necessarily work on humans.
I asked before but got no answer. Who get's to define what curelty is? Owning pets? Riding horses? Would you ban those? a LOT of peta members would. Would you ban hunting? MOST peta members would.
PETA supports giving companion animals homes, and riding horses. PETA also has "no quarrel with subsistence hunters and fishers who truly have no choice in order to survive." Where are you getting your information?
I'm asking these things seriously V-XTC. Not trying to be combative. Or trying to single you out...these questions for for anyone reading who supports animal rights and peta.
I believe you, but I think I'm the only one on the board who supports animal rights, and PETA. It would be cool if I wasn't! :)
Baa baa black sheep have you any wool today? Sheep have for centuries provided wool and meat for the table, many cultures were based on sheep farming and ranching economies. Yet I have never seen any thing close to an act of terrorism on herds of sheep by humans; but have seen snow covered acres turned red with the blood of dead and dying sheep. I have also had to walk those acres with the 22 shorts and put these ripped to pieces animals out of their misery. Coyotes will and do kill for fun, like watching a cat and mouse game. Those sheep were wasted.
But then I have also seen the prize calf with its tongue swollen to suffocation because "Fido, Fifi, Mutly and all the other neighborhood dogs had rights to and were allowed to run and pack at night. I also got the privilege to end my prize registered calf's live to stop its suffering. Oh, the vet said he would have done it, but it would cost more. That calf and others were wasted.
Then there also were the times we were sworn in to uphold the law and then drove about in trucks shooting any dog that wasn't behind a fence or tied to something because they were packing and attacking children. Doesn't bother me those dogs were "wasted".
I have seen the snow melt exposing dead deer and antelope for as far as the eye can see, starved; winter killed, wasted. Aggressive hunting programs help control the populations so this doesn't happen. I have also seen it impossible to garden because the deer population is so high only extremely expensive fences will let the vegetables grow.
It's like the South Park episode when the exiled Stan finds the secret PETA compound where they marry their animals lovers. The PETA leader says Stan doesn't love animals to which Stan replies " I love animals just not like you"
The subtitle of the thread is "why some don't like them" (meaning vegit/vegans), and all I meant to do is ask if the originator of the thread wanted to go another direction with it, out of respect for him/her, not out of disrespect for your right to post.
Hap, thank you for that courtesy, but you are welcome to discuss any aspect of Veg* that you like. I don't think I've EVER seen a thread on GS stay on topic for more than 10 minutes anyway. Sorry I didn't say that to you earlier.
V-XTC said:
I do not condone breaking any law under any circumstance. And I think all crime should be punished. But I think the punishment should fit the crime. Labeling an animal rights activist a terrorist is a scare tactic from the McCarthy era.
While labeling a normal, run of the mill animal rights activist as a terrorist is way over the top, ALF and ELF are not run of the mill. They are not non-violent protesters just out to make a point. I found an extensive list of the terrorist acts that have been commited by ALF and ELF but they were on a site called furcommision.com so I didn't figure you would take anything they say seriously. :) But HERE is a site with some good info about ecoterrorism and ALF and ELF.
I'm pointing this out because I don't think YOU or the AVERAGE Peta member WOULD condone these types of activity. But by not officially condemning these groups, Peta has chosen to affiliate themselves WITH these groups. Peta as an organization, not the Peta supporters individually. Ingrid Newkirk needs to OFFICIALLY condemn these activities, then I believe that Peta would get more support than they do from the mainstream.
V-XTC said:
I am against animal testing. There are better, faster, cheaper, and more reliable methods to find cures for human diseases. The thalidomide children, among many others, will tell you what works on animals won't necessarily work on humans.
OK, we can agree to a point. I am against NEEDLESS animal testing where there is another alternative. Cosmetics for example. No, I don't think it's right to test cosmetics on animals to see how bad it will burn their eyes, or their skin. (Yes, that has been done in the past, don't know if it still is or not.) Putting a chemical in an animals eye just to see how bad it burns is cruel. But let me ask you this. If their was a very promising treatment or even cure for aids, and the ONLY way to find out if it is safe is to test it on say, rhesus monkey's first, would you be against that? And again, I'm saying if it was the ONLY way to test it to see if it's safe. Now, next question. What if there was an alternative but it would take 5 years longer to conclude wheather or not it's safe? Would you tell all of those people who are in the final stages of the disease that there is a possible cure but due to laws banning animal testing, it won't be available until your already dead? (Which brings us to a whole new topic about the FDA being screwed up as he||, but that's for another thread).
V-XTC said:
PETA supports giving companion animals homes, and riding horses. PETA also has "no quarrel with subsistence hunters and fishers who truly have no choice in order to survive." Where are you getting your information?
Which is in response to this statement:
I asked before but got no answer. Who get's to define what curelty is? Owning pets? Riding horses? Would you ban those? a LOT of peta members would. Would you ban hunting? MOST peta members would.
OK, I said a LOT of peta members. I was not sure what Peta's offical stance is on those things. As for where I got the information though, was by reading the PETA DISCUSSION FORUM If you read some of the posts there, you will see why.
PETA also has "no quarrel with subsistence hunters and fishers who truly have no choice in order to survive."
I have a real problem with that statement. Why is it Peta's place to say who is allowed to hunt for their food and who isn't? I like venison. I can't go to the local market to buy it. So when I take a deer and use it for food, how is this wrong? I do not kill for the sake of killing. I kill for food.
I believe you, but I think I'm the only one on the board who supports animal rights, and PETA. It would be cool if I wasn't!
Well, there's DirtDzn, but he doesn't count as, he is your husband therefore he HAS to agree with what you say. Just kidding!
Thank you for keeping this debate civil. That is ONE thing that you usually do NOT get when discussing animal rights with an activist. :)
This probably isn't the place to interject Steve Martin humor is it....he said....if we wanted to get rid of disease all we have to do is kill all the little white mice.
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Psalm 71 one
This is a good thread. I love the responses here. Linda's post on the first page put so well what I was thinking, too. (About mutual respect) I haven't run into "preachy" vegetarians in recent years also, but I remember a few obnoxious preachy ones in my early years in TWI. I s'pose people like that and the ones Ron describes that picket eateries and do the handouts to kids--the zealots, are what helps cause animosity between "omnivores" and Vegans. (As do all the zealots of each cause, huh?)
Vegan, I bet pro-life protesters get things thrown at them, too. And I bet some of those protesters can be pretty obnoxious themselves--I remember a lady who was the neighbor of one of my cleaning accounts many years ago. I'm anti-abortion, but this woman was downright annoying-- and I bet she didn't get any "converts" to her cause with her attitude-- and she used her children in her protests!
Anyway, several of VeganXTC's and SafariVista's posts on here have triggered my own looking into what I eat-- and the qualities of the foods I feed my family. It's been "food for thought" (pun intended)
I don't think I'll ever become vegetarian--and definately don't think i could ever go vegan cuz I do love red meat and cheese too much. On the other hand, we eat too much of these and I have been looking into alternatives--such as TVP and nut milks. I have really appreciated your posts! And I would love if ya would get down to the kitchen with some recipes-- I asked ya for your Neatloaf recipe in the Meatloaf thread.
Hap your kids sound awesome!
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Ductape
There is a prime example of secret thread killer rules posters aren't informed about from the beginning.
Some circles call them control freaks.........
Ron G, please submit posts on special 3x5 index cards so the controllers can approve subject matter before their precious subjects wonder where they don't want them to.
But then, the reason I have trouble with animal rights activists (all veg*ns are) lies in the first time and the times that followed where their actions caused the putting down of more animals than I care to remember, because their animals had rights to. Now that's not the "proper" thread subject is it?
" Be Free!!!!!!"
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VeganXTC
Psalmie, that's cool you're trying different foods! And I'll be sure to post my "neatloaf" recipe.
Ductape said:
Although many are, there are just as many that are not. Some eat a plant based diet for health reasons, some for religious reasons (seventh-day adventists, some Buddists, Jains, some Hindus), some for ecological reasons, some for econmonic reasons, (dried beans are cheaper than hamburger or chicken), and there are some people who just don't like the taste of meat.
And there are some animal rights activists who do cruel and even illegal things. But there are many who don't. Some bought veggie burgers at Burger King to give away so people could try them without spening their hard earned money. Some give abused or neglected animals homes. Some fight with their wallet, and refuse to buy products or services that exploit animals, including humans.
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Bluzeman
I probably didn't name this thread properly. Again, I do not care what someone chooses for their diet. Be it animal, vegetable, animate, inanimate, it makes no difference to me. But to the point, I think that a lot of people lash out at people who say they are Veg*'s because they immediately assume they are some kind of radical, pinko commie activist.
Activists, of any type, can be good. Or bad. Depends on which side of the argument your on. :) But seriously, I have no problem with the PRINCIPLE of wanting to stop animal cruelty. But now the question is, who's definition of cruelty do we use? Some Peta members will tell you that keeping a pet dog is cruelty. Some think that riding horses is cruel. To the ones here who are supporters of Peta, how do you feel about ALF and ELF? Would you support them also? I wonder because I would think that there are even certain issues with Peta that not all activists would support.
By the way, someone made the statement that ALL Veg*'s are animal rights activists. I don't believe that is true. I think there are many who just think it's healthier. And good for them! Takes a lot of discipline, I'm sure.
Rick
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coolchef
and expensive!
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Ex_16th_MB
I'm not sure what it is about vegetarians and their beliefs, etc. I dont think its taught, its just a sense of belief they have that they feel that by saving animals and not eating them that is the right thing and they need to spread the word. Could it be the action of killing that makes them feel that it's wrong to eat meat?
I only say this because I have an 8 year old who is strictly vegetarian. She is not vegan because I have not explained to her the concept or she probably would go vegan. I think that as a growing child she needs some of the proteins brought on by animal by products and so I havent brought up the subject of veganism.
But as innocent as an 8 year old is, she will truely tell you that she will not eat meat of any kind because she doesnt believe in killing of animals. And she truly believes it in her heart. She has a passion about it that sometimes its hard to eat dinner with her because she will point out that we are eating meat and she isnt. So who taught her to think this way? Definitely not us, we all eat meat except her. I think its a sense of internal conviction that she feels that killing animals for the sense of eating them is wrong. Probably the same conviction that some other vegetarians have.
I have since the first of January, have turned vegetarian but will occassionally eat meat, if its mixed with the rest of the dish, but I personally do not brag about it or try to convince others that it is the right thing to do.
Thanks for the topic..its a good one.
Mary
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FreeAtLast
I have a couple of friends who claim to be Vegan and they aren't radical or weird. Aside from the food choices you wouldn't know they were different. Well ok they are different but not because of being Vegan, only because they are into geeky stuff like me. we are all techno geeks. That aside, they are wonderful people who look at their choice as a healthy choice. They DO disagree with animal cruelty but aren't out picketing and enjoy the skin care products I sell (and they are men) because there are no animal bi-products in them. So there are standards that these guys adhere to.
My one friend once told me it was a religious experience for him. I knew him before his vegan conversion and he was a very sick man. Always tired and a little overweight and I would often worry about him and check on him to see if he was doing ok. Now he is trim says he's never felt better and is happy with his life style. But it's HIS lifestyle and he doesn't try to push it on anyone else.
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VeganXTC
Bluzeman said
I guess that's me. :)There's a lot of stuff that PETA does that I don't agree with, like giving literature to children. As far as ALF goes, here's what their website says.
From: http://www.animalliberationfront.com/ALFro...pport%20ALF.htmI do not condone the use of arson or destruction of property, as a means of getting your point across. But I don't think ALF is just trying to make a point. I think they're trying to save lives. How far would you go to save a life?
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Ductape
Are you saying animal life is equal to human life?
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HAPe4me
All I did was ask whether it was welcome to wander into the PETA pi$$ing match, or if this was going to be about be reactions to/from vegetarians/ vegan in general, as I originally understood the intent (perhaps mistakenly). I had no intent on controlling the thread Stickyone, but I do not see them as the same subject. Perhaps I should start a thread for you called "Be in a bad mood HERE==>".
~HAP
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HAPe4me
by the way, for those concerned with getting enough protein from a vegan diet:
http://www.vegparadise.com/protein.html#Charts
It is quite easy to get protein RDA met. The RDA is primarily based body weight, I believe for a 50 year old male weighing 150 lbs, its it around 60gr. Female closer to 50gr. While steaks are high in protein, they are also high in fat, so there is a heavy (pardon the pun) trade-off. take your choices and enjoy some variations.
Coolchef a quick google search putting the word vegan in front of your favorite dish, (i.e. primavera, alfredo, .....) will yield any number of recipes to try. The biggest difficulty in my experience is melted vegan cheeses do not generally have the same consistency as standard cheeses. The overall tastes that can be derived however are every bit as good, and nutritionally wonderful. Good luck
(standard cheeses, being dairy products, is not vegan)
~HAP
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Bluzeman
I'm glad you don't condone arson. But do you condone breaking and entering? Grand theft? Trespassing?
The Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and Earth Liberation Front(ELF) are criminal groups. And should be prosecuted. You don't "make a point" by breaking into labs and stealing the research animals. And that is is MILD compared to some of their activities.
During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country. During the past several years, special interest extremism, as characterized by the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) and the Earth Liberation Front (ELF), has emerged as a serious terrorist threat. Generally, extremist groups engage in much activity that is protected by constitutional guarantees of free speech and assembly. Law enforcement becomes involved when the volatile talk of these groups transgresses into unlawful action. The FBI estimates that the ALF/ELF have committed more than 600 criminal acts in the United States since 1996, resulting in damages in excess of 43 million dollars.
Full Story HERE.
What about animal testing that could result in saving lives? Are you against that? Ingrid Newkirk(Co-founder and president of PETA) IS.
PETA opposes all animal testing, even for research that is aimed at finding cures to life-threatening diseases. Says Newkirk, "Even if animal tests produced a cure for AIDS, we'd be against it." She has often criticized such groups as the Pediatric AIDS Foundation, the March of Dimes, and the American Cancer Society for using laboratory animals in their research aimed at finding cures for diseases. When asked if she would oppose an experiment on 5,000 rats if it would result in a cure for AIDS, Newkirk replied, "Would you be opposed to experiments on your daughter if you knew it would save fifty million people?"
Quoted from THIS site.
Once again, I want to point out that I myself love animals. If I saw someone intentionally infllicting pain on an animal for no reason I would more than likely try to stop them. I have no problem with people who don't want to see animals suffer for NO reason. But I would be hard pressed to tell someone dying of aids or cancer, well the bad news is, we can no longer do any research to find a cure for you. But hey! Good news is, no more lab rats will die in trying to find a cure! Oh, uh, sorry bout your luck.
I asked before but got no answer. Who get's to define what curelty is? Owning pets? Riding horses? Would you ban those? a LOT of peta members would. Would you ban hunting? MOST peta members would.
I'm asking these things seriously V-XTC. Not trying to be combative. Or trying to single you out...these questions for for anyone reading who supports animal rights and peta.
Rick
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Ductape
Do yourself a favor and start a thread " Reality Check Here", then maybe honesty will become your policy and you won't be trying to take other's free speech away.
It's like the animal rights activists that were protesting deer hunting in Florida, the lead spokeswoman shouted we don't want our children taught to murder animals. Some backwoods looking hunter replied, you teach your children what you want, I am teaching my children some valuable life lessons. The two had quite a heated exchange while the TV cameras were rolling. At one point the woman shouted " I am a lesbian and don't have children of my own, the world's children are our children!
To many times the reality of these agendas are floating in some weird twisted reality, some alternate universe. They always say we love animals and humans, but have no problem lowering the place of man to being equal with animals. Logic gives way to emotional (quite honestly) immaturity. I have known many veggies that were on their diets for self diagnosed health reasons. Quite wonderful people that often would sneak bites of meat at community cook-outs, the saying became:" we will have lots of meat if the veggies don't sneak it all".
But I have never meet a veg*n that isn't all about their animal rights movement. If diet is the reason, why won't they wear leather? That is not a diet choice.
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Belle
Then you really should get out more.
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Ductape
I get out plenty and stand by the post
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Belle
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rhino
I think lab rats have it good, unless they get chosen for some of the bad experiments. I suppose occassionally they are intentionally given a disease to see how they respond to various treatments. But other than that they are well fed and cared for.
But what upsets me is the treatment of sewer rats. Life is tough in the ghetto sewers. They get all sorts of diseases with no socialized medical plan. They are often cold and hungry and homeless. We should provide food stations for the underprivileged rats. And heat the sewers. Oh the humanity ratanity ... If you want to make a difference, adopt a rat family today ... just send me $10/month and I will send you pictures of your rat family, and how they are improving (you can save a lot more rats for $10/month than you can starving humans) ...
OK, enuff of that
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HAPe4me
Ducttape- pffft. so now I am dishonest? That is sumpin nobody has called me in 40 years, and I doubt many here would agree with that assessment, certainly not Ron. hehe, its one of the few things I am not. What is it you consider dishonest of what I have said? Where did I try to control anything? Perhaps send it to me in a PM, if YOU think it doesn't belong here. I certainly wouldn't want to try and control where you answer. gad.
Ron- I would be surprised if you took my post that way, as many years as we have exchanged stuff, but if YOU took my post in any way as trying to control what you say, I apologize to you. Of course you and I disagree on many things, but we have always managed to do so good naturedly. The subtitle of the thread is "why some don't like them" (meaning vegit/vegans), and all I meant to do is ask if the originator of the thread wanted to go another direction with it, out of respect for him/her, not out of disrespect for your right to post.
Maybe it was that respect that was misunderstood by Ducttape. Oh well
I am outta here for the weekend, so enjoy yourselves.
~HAP
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VeganXTC
Hap- thanks for the links that tell about protein, and for telling how to find vegan recipes. One of these days I'll get into the kitchen to post some of mine. Have a fun weekend!
Rhino-
My daughter's roomate has two pet rats, but they're neither sewer or lab. They're spoiled though!
Ductape- Maybe some won't wear leather because they are allergic to it, or because they can't afford it. When I smoked cigarettes, I wouldn't wear suede because smoke stays in that fabric longer and smells really bad.
Bluzeman-Wow, lots of hard questions. I'll do my best to answer them all. Maybe I should do the quote thing?
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VeganXTC
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Ductape
Baa baa black sheep have you any wool today? Sheep have for centuries provided wool and meat for the table, many cultures were based on sheep farming and ranching economies. Yet I have never seen any thing close to an act of terrorism on herds of sheep by humans; but have seen snow covered acres turned red with the blood of dead and dying sheep. I have also had to walk those acres with the 22 shorts and put these ripped to pieces animals out of their misery. Coyotes will and do kill for fun, like watching a cat and mouse game. Those sheep were wasted.
But then I have also seen the prize calf with its tongue swollen to suffocation because "Fido, Fifi, Mutly and all the other neighborhood dogs had rights to and were allowed to run and pack at night. I also got the privilege to end my prize registered calf's live to stop its suffering. Oh, the vet said he would have done it, but it would cost more. That calf and others were wasted.
Then there also were the times we were sworn in to uphold the law and then drove about in trucks shooting any dog that wasn't behind a fence or tied to something because they were packing and attacking children. Doesn't bother me those dogs were "wasted".
I have seen the snow melt exposing dead deer and antelope for as far as the eye can see, starved; winter killed, wasted. Aggressive hunting programs help control the populations so this doesn't happen. I have also seen it impossible to garden because the deer population is so high only extremely expensive fences will let the vegetables grow.
It's like the South Park episode when the exiled Stan finds the secret PETA compound where they marry their animals lovers. The PETA leader says Stan doesn't love animals to which Stan replies " I love animals just not like you"
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Bluzeman
HAPe4me said:
Hap, thank you for that courtesy, but you are welcome to discuss any aspect of Veg* that you like. I don't think I've EVER seen a thread on GS stay on topic for more than 10 minutes anyway.V-XTC said:
While labeling a normal, run of the mill animal rights activist as a terrorist is way over the top, ALF and ELF are not run of the mill. They are not non-violent protesters just out to make a point. I found an extensive list of the terrorist acts that have been commited by ALF and ELF but they were on a site called furcommision.com so I didn't figure you would take anything they say seriously. :) But HERE is a site with some good info about ecoterrorism and ALF and ELF.
I'm pointing this out because I don't think YOU or the AVERAGE Peta member WOULD condone these types of activity. But by not officially condemning these groups, Peta has chosen to affiliate themselves WITH these groups. Peta as an organization, not the Peta supporters individually. Ingrid Newkirk needs to OFFICIALLY condemn these activities, then I believe that Peta would get more support than they do from the mainstream.
V-XTC said:
OK, we can agree to a point. I am against NEEDLESS animal testing where there is another alternative. Cosmetics for example. No, I don't think it's right to test cosmetics on animals to see how bad it will burn their eyes, or their skin. (Yes, that has been done in the past, don't know if it still is or not.) Putting a chemical in an animals eye just to see how bad it burns is cruel. But let me ask you this. If their was a very promising treatment or even cure for aids, and the ONLY way to find out if it is safe is to test it on say, rhesus monkey's first, would you be against that? And again, I'm saying if it was the ONLY way to test it to see if it's safe. Now, next question. What if there was an alternative but it would take 5 years longer to conclude wheather or not it's safe? Would you tell all of those people who are in the final stages of the disease that there is a possible cure but due to laws banning animal testing, it won't be available until your already dead? (Which brings us to a whole new topic about the FDA being screwed up as he||, but that's for another thread).V-XTC said:
Which is in response to this statement:
OK, I said a LOT of peta members. I was not sure what Peta's offical stance is on those things. As for where I got the information though, was by reading the PETA DISCUSSION FORUM If you read some of the posts there, you will see why.I have a real problem with that statement. Why is it Peta's place to say who is allowed to hunt for their food and who isn't? I like venison. I can't go to the local market to buy it. So when I take a deer and use it for food, how is this wrong? I do not kill for the sake of killing. I kill for food.
Well, there's DirtDzn, but he doesn't count as, he is your husband therefore he HAS to agree with what you say.
Just kidding!
Thank you for keeping this debate civil. That is ONE thing that you usually do NOT get when discussing animal rights with an activist. :)
Rick
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pond
my cat is my best friend.
I love him very much.
I would spend thousands on medical care for him.
he is my pet.
BUT/AND
we need animals for testing.
no way around it.
we are humans and humans need help and animals should be the ones tested.
why? because animals are NOT people and people should come before animals.
if this seems warped to you.
then i do not understand.
Jesus doesnt say love all the creatures he says LOVE ONE ANOTHER!
no we shouldnt abuse anything BUT here is your choice people or an animal.
but of course not my cat, I know , but why should one animal suffer and one lives in a luxury life with me as a precious beast?
why does one person get a life threatening disease and not another?
who comes first in your mind?
if it was a person even a lousy no good person or my cat I would have to give him (my buddy)up.
oh my god it wouldbe difficult BUT THINK who is more important to you?
why?
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ChattyKathy
This probably isn't the place to interject Steve Martin humor is it....he said....if we wanted to get rid of disease all we have to do is kill all the little white mice.
Okay so I needed a break.
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