This link from the University of Southern California
says that the brains of these people are drastically different. They have less of the brain matter which controls morals, and more of the brain matter that gives them the intelligence required to lie.
from the article:
“Lying takes a lot of effort,” he said.
“It’s almost mind reading. You have to be able to understand the mindset of the other person. You also have to suppress your emotions or regulate them because you don’t want to appear nervous. There’s quite a lot to do there. You’ve got to suppress the truth.
"“When people make moral decisions, they are relying on the prefrontal cortex. When people ask normal people to make moral decisions, we see activation in the front of the brain,” he explained. “If these liars have a 14 percent reduction in gray matter, that means that they are less likely to care about moral issues or are less likely to be able to process moral issues. Having more gray matter would keep a check on these activities.”
But it seems they have a choice to lie as it says they are manipulative...
I did some research on this subject when I was working as a covert agent for the CIA
But seriously, yes, everything I've seen on this (Which is not much) suggests that they actually believe they are telling the truth. I suppose that only adds to the illusion of their honesty. I think there is even some evidence that there are physical abnormalities present in their brains. WordWolf , in one of his posts, referred to a practise they partake of called "confabulation" where they invent scenarios (fictional) that support their claims.
Dramduie consumption has been shown to be a causative factor. :)
OK-- Now maybe at this point, someone who actually has some knowledge in this area will chime in.
and as people I have encountered in the workforce or as customers
Sorry They may lack the impulse control it may be harder for them to find the moral compass in their heads--I don't know about that--
But do they know they are lying?
You betcha
Why????
Because they lie with a purpose and they are sneaky about it
If I walk up to you and say "I am wearing this red pantsuit by Dior how do you like it? and I am wearing a blue dress-- then an argument could be made that I don't know the truth from fiction.
But the pathological liars I have known-- lied for one of the following reasons
To make themselves look good
to get out of a jam
to get you to give them what they want
often the above reasons are intermixed in any given situation
They always make what they say sound plausible
If by change you do catch them then they have another story as to
why you didn't understand what they meant
Didn't hear correctly
or even accuse you of being the liar
In extreme cases they even tell others around you that you are guilty of actions you never did but often actions they themselves are guilty of
Nope, Pathological liars are just a form of Sociopathy the two go hand in hand
They may not be wired like us
they may not look at the world like us
But they are keenly aware of what they are doing and why
I was married to a pathological liar for 17 years.
he knows he's lying. he knows lying is wrong. when the truth is all that stands between him and what he wants, truth becomes optional... and he wants to be admired, he wants to spend money, and he doesn't want to be "responsible" unless there's some emotional payoff for him, like praise from his boss or not getting ragged on by people who scare him... but even then he has a policy of "if you don't get caught, it's golden".
so, as you can imagine, he lies pretty much all the time about all kinds of things and it can seem pretty random.
I'd like to point out that it defines confabulation differently than any previous
article I've quoted on the subject, and this is relevant to the article.
Here's some interesting quotes from it.
" "In pathological lying, telling lies may often seem to be an end in itself . . . .the pathological liar may become a prisoner of his lies, [and] the desired personality of the pathological liar may overwhelm the actual one." "
"Unlike other forms of lying, pathological lying appears to be unplanned and impulsive, he explained. "It is questionable whether it is always a conscious act and whether pathological liars have control over their lies." "
" It can also be differentiated from confabulation, "a falsification of memory occurring in clear consciousness in association with organically derived amnesia. The patient attempts to cover exposed memory gaps with the confabulated materials," he said. There is no organically based amnesia propelling pathological lying. "
"Pathological liars may admit the falsehoods they’ve told when confronted and often proceed to change their stories. As a result, it may not, however, always be simple to distinguish pathological lying from delusional disorders."
"Some could confuse narcissistic personality disorder with pathological lying, but in the former "lies are told mainly for self-aggrandizement, and this is often obvious to the audience," he pointed out. "
"One area in which the differentiation is not clear cut is borderline personality disorder, he said. "Pathological lying is not uncommon in patients with borderline personality disorder [in which] the core characteristics foster falsifications." Reality distortions common to this disorder, "along with lack of impulse control and the defense mechanisms of denial, idealization, and devaluation, are fertile grounds for pathological lying." "
If you continue to lie it activates the white matter of the brain over the gray
OR
Because they are wired to use the white over the gray they lie.
Chicken or the egg?
I had one girl that simply could not or would not tell the truth. If she drank a 7 up with a ham sandwich for lunch she'd say, "I had a pie and root beer for lunch" There was no benefit to the exchange of the lie for the truth. It was shocking to me.
"Unlike other forms of lying, pathological lying appears to be unplanned and impulsive, he explained. "It is questionable whether it is always a conscious act and whether pathological liars have control over their lies." "
"Pathological liars may admit the falsehoods they've told when confronted and often proceed to change their stories. As a result, it may not, however, always be simple to distinguish pathological lying from delusional disorders."
"Some could confuse narcissistic personality disorder with pathological lying, but in the former "lies are told mainly for self-aggrandizement, and this is often obvious to the audience," he pointed out. "
"One area in which the differentiation is not clear cut is borderline personality disorder, he said. "Pathological lying is not uncommon in patients with borderline personality disorder [in which] the core characteristics foster falsifications." Reality distortions common to this disorder, "along with lack of impulse control and the defense mechanisms of denial, idealization, and devaluation, are fertile grounds for pathological lying." "
and Antisocial Personality Disorder, and the differences between the types of lying and the reasons.
(IIRC, this discussion didnt go far, either.)
Yeah... it makes sense to me that there are different answers (conscious or not, for example) for different reasons for the lying...
My divorce was final just over 11 years ago. Two years of litigation. Even before that started, I had come to recognize her as someone who found it easier to lie than to even breathe. Custody was highly contentious. During the litigation, I did some research also. As much as a non-professional could, I came to the conclusion that this person I was in the process of becoming UNmarried to did suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder. I may not have been correct, but it sure seemed like it to me.
And there were a few brief times that she indicated she knew she had a problem with lying... but subsequently she continued the practice... and most of the time seems like she doesn't even realize it.
Muy frustrating.
With her, it was NOT narcissistic aggrandizement... and it was generally regarding something that if the truth were known, it would cause her substantial anxiety... hence, tied closely to emotional/psychological defense mechanisms, including but probably not limited to denial.
I've often wondered if Saturday Night Live requires their hosts and possibly their cast members to undergo a psychological profile, then crafts skits accordingly.
They did one 20 yrs ago with Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall as hosts and John Lovitz pretended to be a pathological liar. It was hilarious.
Then later Dana Carvey had a character named 'massive headwound Harry', a man who had an open bleeding wound that everybody else could see, but Harry was oblivious to. He'd go to parties and everything he touched had blood on it and other people were appalled but Harry was totally unaware that anything was amiss. I wondered if the skit was an absurd parody of someone with an annoying trait that everyone else can see but not the person with the trait.
I thought that some pathological liars may feel their "ordinary" life is not "legitimate" and they need to constantly lie to beef it up, but I suppose it's possible that some others do it unconsciously as well.
i have a boss who lies ALL the time -- in small things, big thing, things that absolutely don't matter in any way, shape or form
we employees are so amazed
one time he said -- seriously -- "you know me, honest abe"
ohmygod so now we refer to him as abe all the time
he never ever keeps his stories straight, from one day to the next, and it doesn't seem to bother him one bit
--
here's just one silly example....
a few years ago he went to a nearby jeweler and had a ring made. he sketched his idea on a piece of paper, just a gold square thing
well when this new girls started, he showed her his ring and told her that he used to a jeweler and made this ring himself -- and that he got the gold from a dentis friend of his....
There is a woman I work with who lies about everything. I can understand lying to stay out of trouble, or get ahead, like Dot said, but this woman lies whenever she opens her mouth. She has told everyone that three people were killed in her house before she bought it, that she furnishes it in antiques, that her and her husband have had sexual intercourse every day of their married lives (they've been married at least 25 years,), that her uncles were part of the Mexican Mafia, her brother owns a big hotel in Vegas, she has 11 brothers and sisters, and they're all extremely wealthy, and on and on and on.....
She's really a sweet and generous person, and a great person to work with, because she knows her job and does it well. But these lies! I don't believe anything she says anymore. And yeah, she knows she lies, cause she covers very well when she slips.
I'm going to read those links that Dmiller and Wordwolf gave. Hopefully I be able to understand her better. She is such a wonderful person in every other area.
now my boss was on the phone friday with someone from another state and he was telling this guy that his grandson moved to that state and absolutely loves it
his grandson is 4 years old and lives in brooklyn
and if you tell him ANYTHING and i mean ANYTHING he can top your story
We had a girl in school who was crazy like that...
One day she told us her dog was 21 years old. Well, I did not believe it - the dog was Doodle.
Another day she said he died.
Later, she spoke about him and he was alive....
Then, she told us her grandmother was Chinese. Another Grandmother was black. Another was an Island Princess. Another was something else. She forgot she had already told us about the grandmother. So, now she was up to four.
Once she made a cake from an old family recipe, it was a secret that she would share with us, and it was the one on the side of a Duncan Hines box....
Then, she told us how her grandfather could press a button and have the whole kitchen drop on hydraulics down into their recreation room -- this way he did not have to buy a new microwave and other appliances.
I said it would have COST less to buy the appliances rather than have a whole room descend into the basement area to save money on appliances....
Anybody remember "Liars Club". It was a game show where each member of the panel would produce a story or fact and the contestant would have to decide which was true and which was false.
Honest, I'm not making this up. A friend of mine knew a guy who worked on the stage crew. :unsure:
"Pathological liars may admit the falsehoods they’ve told when confronted and often proceed to change their stories. As a result, it may not, however, always be simple to distinguish pathological lying from delusional disorders."
"Some could confuse narcissistic personality disorder with pathological lying, but in the former "lies are told mainly for self-aggrandizement, and this is often obvious to the audience," he pointed out. "
now I question whether my ex is a true pathological liar, because his lies seem to have a purpose and he'll work overtime to get people to believe him. the lies seem to be designed to make others look bad, him to look good, or make uncomfortable responsibilities disappear. he can fool people for a long time... years. then I took him to a counseling session after he told me he "do whatever it took" to keep me. I told him I couldn't take his lying anymore... so of course, when the counselor asked him "did you hit your wife" he said "no". for the first time, I got angry and said "he's lying" and he admitted the whole thing! but it didn't change the lying, as soon as we left he continued to lie exactly as he'd always done.
I don't think he has a choice. he HAS to lie.... but he comes across to others as an honest guy. he can't just be himself, or take responsibility for his own life, or let other people get praise for what they do. I believe he's got narcisstic personality disorder.
there was a client who owed us some money. i decided to write a letter, but i told my boss i would like to put his signature on the letter since he has more clout
a few weeks later the client paid up. my boss said to ME (as he looked me straight in the eye) and the president of the company that we were able to collect that money because of how carefully he worded his letter....
this is like an everyday occurrence. it's pitiful....
Recommended Posts
Ham
This link from the University of Southern California
says that the brains of these people are drastically different. They have less of the brain matter which controls morals, and more of the brain matter that gives them the intelligence required to lie.
from the article:
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
So, all the effort that could go into just being a regular person goes into lying....
Why?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
neat article
"“When people make moral decisions, they are relying on the prefrontal cortex. When people ask normal people to make moral decisions, we see activation in the front of the brain,” he explained. “If these liars have a 14 percent reduction in gray matter, that means that they are less likely to care about moral issues or are less likely to be able to process moral issues. Having more gray matter would keep a check on these activities.”
But it seems they have a choice to lie as it says they are manipulative...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Fascinating subject
I did some research on this subject when I was working as a covert agent for the CIA
But seriously, yes, everything I've seen on this (Which is not much) suggests that they actually believe they are telling the truth. I suppose that only adds to the illusion of their honesty. I think there is even some evidence that there are physical abnormalities present in their brains. WordWolf , in one of his posts, referred to a practise they partake of called "confabulation" where they invent scenarios (fictional) that support their claims.
Dramduie consumption has been shown to be a causative factor. :)
OK-- Now maybe at this point, someone who actually has some knowledge in this area will chime in.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Just a thought..
with all of that extra white matter, I would imagine they would be rather "bored" with an ordinary life of sorts.
I think that they have to find some kind of game to play..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Geeze, I have to learn to type faster. You guys posted right past me.
I used to be able to type 200 words per minute before the terrible submarine accident.
Oops!( I've been given directives not to acknowledge it)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Known a few
as friends
as husbands/boyfriends
and as people I have encountered in the workforce or as customers
Sorry They may lack the impulse control it may be harder for them to find the moral compass in their heads--I don't know about that--
But do they know they are lying?
You betcha
Why????
Because they lie with a purpose and they are sneaky about it
If I walk up to you and say "I am wearing this red pantsuit by Dior how do you like it? and I am wearing a blue dress-- then an argument could be made that I don't know the truth from fiction.
But the pathological liars I have known-- lied for one of the following reasons
To make themselves look good
to get out of a jam
to get you to give them what they want
often the above reasons are intermixed in any given situation
They always make what they say sound plausible
If by change you do catch them then they have another story as to
why you didn't understand what they meant
Didn't hear correctly
or even accuse you of being the liar
In extreme cases they even tell others around you that you are guilty of actions you never did but often actions they themselves are guilty of
Nope, Pathological liars are just a form of Sociopathy the two go hand in hand
They may not be wired like us
they may not look at the world like us
But they are keenly aware of what they are doing and why
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
I was married to a pathological liar for 17 years.
he knows he's lying. he knows lying is wrong. when the truth is all that stands between him and what he wants, truth becomes optional... and he wants to be admired, he wants to spend money, and he doesn't want to be "responsible" unless there's some emotional payoff for him, like praise from his boss or not getting ragged on by people who scare him... but even then he has a policy of "if you don't get caught, it's golden".
so, as you can imagine, he lies pretty much all the time about all kinds of things and it can seem pretty random.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Siouxzahn
Fascinating topic, very current to what some friends and I are dealing with at the moment.
Waysider!
:P
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Here's a study I once did, and saw it successfully published,
before that big fish ran into my surfboard in Hawaii,
knocking me headlong (wearing no helmet), into the waves,
causing irrepareable brain damage.
Had I worn a helmet that day -- I'd still be writing articles like this.
But now all I can do is pick banjo & the fiddle. :(
Seriously -- THIS ARTICLE speaks of pathologically lying as a mental disorder.
I tend to believe it. Working in the group home -- I see lot's of similar *behaviour*.
Even the more lucid clients that live there, will tell tall tales about their past,
famous folks they have met, etc. -- and believe it themselves.
The article I linked (which I didn't write!) ;) speaks of an imbalance in the brain as a cause.
While wading through the medical terminology in the link -- I saw a portrait painted of docvic,
and some other folks I know here in my home town.
I need to look at this further, to see if malice towards others,
validation of self, (or whatever), is the main end product.
It seems to stem from brain disorder -- and any resut from that cannot be good.
Seems some pathological liars are more *adept* at verbiage and "convincibility" (sp?) than most.
More "white matter" than "grey matter", making it easier to work hard at lying,
and be *successful* at it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
I'm guessing that the lying is a defense mechanism.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
John -- I don't know. Could be. From what I read of that article (and others),
it's a mental disorder.
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I found this article just now when looking for references to Pathological Lying and the DSM-IV.
(The DSM-IV is the current manual defining mental illnesses and their symptoms.)
http://pn/psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/38/1/24
I'd like to point out that it defines confabulation differently than any previous
article I've quoted on the subject, and this is relevant to the article.
Here's some interesting quotes from it.
" "In pathological lying, telling lies may often seem to be an end in itself . . . .the pathological liar may become a prisoner of his lies, [and] the desired personality of the pathological liar may overwhelm the actual one." "
"Unlike other forms of lying, pathological lying appears to be unplanned and impulsive, he explained. "It is questionable whether it is always a conscious act and whether pathological liars have control over their lies." "
" It can also be differentiated from confabulation, "a falsification of memory occurring in clear consciousness in association with organically derived amnesia. The patient attempts to cover exposed memory gaps with the confabulated materials," he said. There is no organically based amnesia propelling pathological lying. "
"Pathological liars may admit the falsehoods they’ve told when confronted and often proceed to change their stories. As a result, it may not, however, always be simple to distinguish pathological lying from delusional disorders."
"Some could confuse narcissistic personality disorder with pathological lying, but in the former "lies are told mainly for self-aggrandizement, and this is often obvious to the audience," he pointed out. "
"One area in which the differentiation is not clear cut is borderline personality disorder, he said. "Pathological lying is not uncommon in patients with borderline personality disorder [in which] the core characteristics foster falsifications." Reality distortions common to this disorder, "along with lack of impulse control and the defense mechanisms of denial, idealization, and devaluation, are fertile grounds for pathological lying." "
IIRC, we've previously discussed both Borderline Personality Disorder, Narcissistic Personality Disorder,
and Antisocial Personality Disorder, and the differences between the types of lying and the reasons.
(IIRC, this discussion didnt go far, either.)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Do you wonder whether --
If you continue to lie it activates the white matter of the brain over the gray
OR
Because they are wired to use the white over the gray they lie.
Chicken or the egg?
I had one girl that simply could not or would not tell the truth. If she drank a 7 up with a ham sandwich for lunch she'd say, "I had a pie and root beer for lunch" There was no benefit to the exchange of the lie for the truth. It was shocking to me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Rocky
Yeah... it makes sense to me that there are different answers (conscious or not, for example) for different reasons for the lying...
My divorce was final just over 11 years ago. Two years of litigation. Even before that started, I had come to recognize her as someone who found it easier to lie than to even breathe. Custody was highly contentious. During the litigation, I did some research also. As much as a non-professional could, I came to the conclusion that this person I was in the process of becoming UNmarried to did suffer from Borderline Personality Disorder. I may not have been correct, but it sure seemed like it to me.
And there were a few brief times that she indicated she knew she had a problem with lying... but subsequently she continued the practice... and most of the time seems like she doesn't even realize it.
Muy frustrating.
With her, it was NOT narcissistic aggrandizement... and it was generally regarding something that if the truth were known, it would cause her substantial anxiety... hence, tied closely to emotional/psychological defense mechanisms, including but probably not limited to denial.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
johniam
I've often wondered if Saturday Night Live requires their hosts and possibly their cast members to undergo a psychological profile, then crafts skits accordingly.
They did one 20 yrs ago with Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall as hosts and John Lovitz pretended to be a pathological liar. It was hilarious.
Then later Dana Carvey had a character named 'massive headwound Harry', a man who had an open bleeding wound that everybody else could see, but Harry was oblivious to. He'd go to parties and everything he touched had blood on it and other people were appalled but Harry was totally unaware that anything was amiss. I wondered if the skit was an absurd parody of someone with an annoying trait that everyone else can see but not the person with the trait.
I thought that some pathological liars may feel their "ordinary" life is not "legitimate" and they need to constantly lie to beef it up, but I suppose it's possible that some others do it unconsciously as well.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
waysider you are so funny
i thought about SNL too johnnyam
i have a boss who lies ALL the time -- in small things, big thing, things that absolutely don't matter in any way, shape or form
we employees are so amazed
one time he said -- seriously -- "you know me, honest abe"
ohmygod so now we refer to him as abe all the time
he never ever keeps his stories straight, from one day to the next, and it doesn't seem to bother him one bit
--
here's just one silly example....
a few years ago he went to a nearby jeweler and had a ring made. he sketched his idea on a piece of paper, just a gold square thing
well when this new girls started, he showed her his ring and told her that he used to a jeweler and made this ring himself -- and that he got the gold from a dentis friend of his....
now why ? what is the sense in this ????????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
OMG
That is the kind of stuff that makes me crazy.
The big things bother me but I understand some idiot lies to get ahead, look better maybe... (But do not condone it)
But the little things -- when they cannot tell the truth about the little things are they broken and cannot be fixed?
WTF
Link to comment
Share on other sites
VeganXTC
Thank you so much for starting this thread, Dot.
There is a woman I work with who lies about everything. I can understand lying to stay out of trouble, or get ahead, like Dot said, but this woman lies whenever she opens her mouth. She has told everyone that three people were killed in her house before she bought it, that she furnishes it in antiques, that her and her husband have had sexual intercourse every day of their married lives (they've been married at least 25 years,), that her uncles were part of the Mexican Mafia, her brother owns a big hotel in Vegas, she has 11 brothers and sisters, and they're all extremely wealthy, and on and on and on.....
She's really a sweet and generous person, and a great person to work with, because she knows her job and does it well. But these lies! I don't believe anything she says anymore. And yeah, she knows she lies, cause she covers very well when she slips.
I'm going to read those links that Dmiller and Wordwolf gave. Hopefully I be able to understand her better. She is such a wonderful person in every other area.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
now my boss was on the phone friday with someone from another state and he was telling this guy that his grandson moved to that state and absolutely loves it
his grandson is 4 years old and lives in brooklyn
and if you tell him ANYTHING and i mean ANYTHING he can top your story
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
We had a girl in school who was crazy like that...
One day she told us her dog was 21 years old. Well, I did not believe it - the dog was Doodle.
Another day she said he died.
Later, she spoke about him and he was alive....
Then, she told us her grandmother was Chinese. Another Grandmother was black. Another was an Island Princess. Another was something else. She forgot she had already told us about the grandmother. So, now she was up to four.
Once she made a cake from an old family recipe, it was a secret that she would share with us, and it was the one on the side of a Duncan Hines box....
Then, she told us how her grandfather could press a button and have the whole kitchen drop on hydraulics down into their recreation room -- this way he did not have to buy a new microwave and other appliances.
I said it would have COST less to buy the appliances rather than have a whole room descend into the basement area to save money on appliances....
EVERY word was crazy.
Edited by Dot MatrixLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Anybody remember "Liars Club". It was a game show where each member of the panel would produce a story or fact and the contestant would have to decide which was true and which was false.
Honest, I'm not making this up. A friend of mine knew a guy who worked on the stage crew.
:unsure:
Link to comment
Share on other sites
potato
now I question whether my ex is a true pathological liar, because his lies seem to have a purpose and he'll work overtime to get people to believe him. the lies seem to be designed to make others look bad, him to look good, or make uncomfortable responsibilities disappear. he can fool people for a long time... years. then I took him to a counseling session after he told me he "do whatever it took" to keep me. I told him I couldn't take his lying anymore... so of course, when the counselor asked him "did you hit your wife" he said "no". for the first time, I got angry and said "he's lying" and he admitted the whole thing! but it didn't change the lying, as soon as we left he continued to lie exactly as he'd always done.
I don't think he has a choice. he HAS to lie.... but he comes across to others as an honest guy. he can't just be himself, or take responsibility for his own life, or let other people get praise for what they do. I believe he's got narcisstic personality disorder.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
this a longsuit of my lying boss
there was a client who owed us some money. i decided to write a letter, but i told my boss i would like to put his signature on the letter since he has more clout
a few weeks later the client paid up. my boss said to ME (as he looked me straight in the eye) and the president of the company that we were able to collect that money because of how carefully he worded his letter....
this is like an everyday occurrence. it's pitiful....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.