I often wondered the same things. In pfal vp talked about things of the past(india)
but living at his feet saw what appeared to be lack of power. The rare times
there was a healing session I can leaver remember someone shouting for joy
after a great healing. Then the co. line it's still the word if no one believes.
Danny,
Yeah....."living at his feet" at hq, lots of those after-teaching meetings and night-owls were times when he'd talk about the early years of his ministry, his learning truths, etc. We'd sit for hours hearing those accounts about uncle harry or ermal or the wierwille farmstead.
I only remember ONE healing session at all the rock of ages I attended.....and vpw was onstage directing others into ministering healing. I think someone abandoned their crutches.
At PFAL '77........any healings or anything?? Nope.
Adv. Class '79....lots on Jonestown and conspiracy theories. Any signs or whatever? Nope.
Living Victoriously (1982)......vpw got his motorcylce w/ sidecar.
And yeah........the company line, "it's still the word if no one believes."
“I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day; I'd rather one should walk with me than merely tell the way: The eye's a better pupil and more willing than the ear, fine counsel is confusing, but example's always clear.”-
Edgar A. Guest.
"I'D Rather See A Sermon by BRUCE CARROLL
I'd see him go to church almost every Sunday
He had invited me to go a time or two
made no bones about the fact that he was a Christian
And he seemed to know I was looking for some truth
Never looked at me with eyes of condemnation
though he knew I was uneasy when he pray
he was always there to lend a hand
and when he did he'd always say
that the good Lord and his blessing
are what made him act that way
I'd rather see a sermon
than to hear one anyday
I'd rather one would walk with me
than merely show the way
Actions speak much louder
than all the words can say
That's why I'd rather see a sermon
than hear one anyday
There were times that I would see him from a distance
and he didn't know that I was watching him
he always took the time to love his children
and he treated his wife like his best friend
I got the call two weeks ago this Monday
that the job I had ten years was at the end
he was the first to call and show up on my doorstep
I remember that healing session at ROA. I think it was in 1973. It was the year that The Rock came right after The Advanced Class. VPW announced that anyone needing healing was to come to the front. Then he made a call for all AC grads to come to the front as well and find someone to minister to. I did not participate because I felt that God would tell me himself if he wanted me to and that part was not for any man to decide. I did not see any great healings but did "hear" someone had thrown away their crutches. Afterwards I had very conflicted feelings concerning my decision not to participate. Did God tell me not to participate? Did God tell me but I wasn't listening? Did I have doubts about the whole scenario? In short, I came away feeling I had done the wrong thing and had let God down.
A couple of years later, a friend who desperately needed a healing, came to the ROA in hopes of finding one. Instead, he passed away in the motel. I remember thinking to myself that if his healing was meant to be, that God would surely have had plenty of candidates to pick from all assembled in one place. To me, HE was the sermon because he was the one who made the effort to act on his faith.
I think that many times "we" saw some of these people who needed true healings as some sort of trophy we could hold up and say"Look what God can do!." It was a self centered and selfish way to think and I'm sorry that I contributed to it.
A very thought provoking thread. Thank you for sharing this at this time.
I'm not sure if this relates to what you have started here... but today I was in deep thought about how the BOTs were laiden with gifts each year at the ROA from all the different international countries represented at the ROA. Sometimes this would be 30-40 countries. Each country bringing a gift for each BOT and their spouses.
I remember each year our country coordinators would be racking their brains as to what to get the BOTs this year for the ROA.
Each gift would be displayed in the International Outreach tent for everyone to see.
I used to peruse the table and was always completely amazed at some of the most expensive and beautiful gifts from these foreign countries. I remember seeing the gifts brought from Zaire and wondered how a poor country like theirs could afford such gifts. I'm sure their own country coordinator never allowed himself such luxuries.
I was taught that the gift giving thing was from the Eastern custom where the MOG was brought a gift to show gratitude and thankfulness. Therefore, if you did not bring a gift you were breaking spiritual protocol ... NOT GOOD!!! It seemed that the BOTs year after year enjoyed receiving these gifts. Yet, I would often think... In these days and times... with the plurality that the BOTs enjoyed, why wouldn't they say.. 'NO need to bring gifts. We know you are appreciative, especially the countries who we know struggle economically.' Or perhaps, 'You have come from so far, spending sometimes 1,000's of dollars to fly here... gifts are not necessary.'
Most gifts displayed their country's most valuable resources... such as gem stones, artisan works and pure linens, wools, works done by famous individuals of that country...etc... ect. Things I would only DREAM of owning.
One year as our country coordinators were scratching their heads as to what to bring THIS year... (because each year it became more and more difficult to come up with something that hadn't been done before) I suggested perhaps something made by believers. I crocheted at the time, so I said perhaps I could crochet a shawl for the older ladies such as Emogene or Mrs. W or Wanda. They said nice idea.. but no.
About a month later a received a call asking me to make 2 shawls. This was only 3 weeks before the ROA.. or maybe even 2 .. not sure.
As anyone who's knitted or crocheted... this takes time. So of course, the little waybot that I was.. was so HONOURED that I was asked that I completely ignored the fact that this was way too short of a time and I did it anyway. Away I went, crocheting each day 'til the wee hours of the morning to finish the work.
I was told that the ladies liked them, but no thank you was said to me or even mentioned.
Sorry if I may have have derailed this thread, but when you mentioned that you saw no signs, wonders or miracles that followed their lives, IMO it was because these MOG's and MOG wannabees were very selfish individuals.
NO signs, miracles or wonders could ever follow such persons. It would have defied all of the laws of the universe.
I remember that healing session at ROA. I think it was in 1973. It was the year that The Rock came right after The Advanced Class. VPW announced that anyone needing healing was to come to the front. Then he made a call for all AC grads to come to the front as well and find someone to minister to. I did not participate because I felt that God would tell me himself if he wanted me to and that part was not for any man to decide. I did not see any great healings but did "hear" someone had thrown away their crutches.
Yeah.....that's about how I remember it, too. And it always struck me odd that "the top brass" weren't out there, front and center, to minister and pray for the people. Why?? What could be more important at this time than ministering to the people seeking God's deliverance??
Of course, "He sent His Word and healed them"..........I know. But also, there was POWER demonstrated throughout the early Church by the gift ministries. And surely, "power for abundant living" wasn't just a cliche........or in reference to material abundance. It's spiritual power, right??????
Maybe, I wasn't seeing things clearly.........so I shelved these perplexing thoughts.
I've told this story before......so I'll keep it brief. My first year as a WOW Ambassador......I went with the sole purpose of giving a year of my life to God. My wow brother and I were door-to-door witnessing and we knocked on the door of this elderly couple. With a little reluctance, they opened the door and I did most of the talking. The wife was more intent on listening than her husband......and when I talked about healing, she drew in closer.
In my bold claims of God's will for people to be healed......she confessed that her right eye was blurred by a catarac (sp). I asked her if she'd like for me to pray with her......and she willingly accepted this opportunity. I then motioned for her husband to join in this prayer......a small circle, with the wife on one side of me and the husband on the other. And, my wow brother stood close by. We closed out the world of doubt and went to the Father with specific petitions.
With intensity of love, and an outpouring of God's grace......I ended my prayer and we all opened our eyes. Immediately, the woman started crying and crying and wiping her tears. She could SEE. Her right eye was clear. With the husband crying, I started crying and we all hugged and cried together. On this day, at that moment, this woman received healing from God.
During my first WOW year, I saw three such healings.......and even though we had several tough challenges throughout the year, I could cling to these "God moments." And heck, I was just a measly, little WOW guy who knew very little bible. How much GREATER to keep growing, go in the corps, be around twi leadership..............how I was SORELY MISTAKEN.
So much of corps training was........pfal rehash, dale carnegie techniques, petty work assignments, encroaching legalism, translations according to usage, twi history, wierwille adulation, lightbearers, research paper, etc.
What about.....walking in love, walking in light, walking circumspectly.....and SEEING the power of God in operation???? Why weren't corps coordinators leading us into the SPECIFICS of the revelation and impartation manifestations???
What gives??????.........I'd rather SEE a sermon, than hear one ANY DAY.
I've shared more than once on GS when this question came up, about the time VPW ministered to me after I'd totaled my car on the way to ROA '72 and I got healed, and about the time he ministered to my son, who was instantaneously healed of a chronic illness he'd been plagued with since infancy, which by the way never returned after that day.
My firsthand accounts were brushed aside because they didn't corroborate the "twi and VP were all evil all the time" mindset that predominates here.
Of course when I told about those incidents, I included the usual disclaimers about "this doesn't excuse the wrong VP did" and blah blah blah. Nevertheless, some here still peg me as a "VPW apologist," which I'm not. Whatever.
Contrary to what was taught in twi and what many here apparently believe, life isn't all black and white.
I've shared more than once on GS when this question came up, about the time VPW ministered to me after I'd totaled my car on the way to ROA '72 and I got healed, and about the time he ministered to my son, who was instantaneously healed of a chronic illness he'd been plagued with since infancy, which by the way never returned after that day.
My firsthand accounts were brushed aside because they didn't corroborate the "twi and VP were all evil all the time" mindset that predominates here.
Thanks Linda.......it's good to hear this.
I've always wondered why, in all my years with twi.....I never saw vpw involved in praying and ministering directly to others.
I've always wondered why, in all my years with twi.....I never saw vpw involved in praying and ministering directly to others.
Maybe this will explain why: The time he ministered to me, he just took me quietly aside and we sat on a bench, just the two of us. The time he ministered to my son was at Rome City. A lot of people were sick one day when VPW was visiting the campus. He went from room to room visiting them and praying with/ministereing to them.
As negatively as my son views twi (and did so before I did), he's still grateful for that healing. He'd had painful, severe ear infections a couple times of year since he was a little baby, and he was so glad they were gone!
I never saw VPW doing "mass healings" on the ROA stage a la Benny Hinn or Ernest Angley, either. How often he did it in private, though, I have no idea.
I'm sure VP like anyone orininally had good intentions that came through at times of need. If not no one would have followed him.
But as Sky has pointed out, it became more evident over the years that VP had his sights on the "big picture" meaning-how do we get more people.
Maybe that's it, polar bear.........the "big picture" seemed to focus on more people, i.e. the vpw-expressed goal of commissioning 4,000 WOWs for the 40th anniversary year, 1982. Didn't happen, though......fell quite short.
Of course, I have to stop and take into account that the original-trustee-era was coming to a close when harry died in 1977, ermal died in 1979.....and wierwille was starting to struggle with health issues, too. And, with the 40th anniversary in sight.....wierwille was busy studying and sizing up his men to see who would qualify for the 2nd president of twi.
But still.......imo, the "walls came tumbling down" because twi was OUTSIDE the blessings of God. Lots and lots of reasons, I suppose......but the corruption of the way tree was at the ROOTS. And, yeah.....it took a few years to manifest outwardly, but by 1979 (at least) it was in decay mode.
So many things........ :unsure:
In hindsight, I think that being in a small, growing twig........FAR AWAY FROM THE ROOT........was the best of memories and sweetest of times.
PB and Skyrider, I agree with what you've said in the last two posts.
When the emphasis on "more, more, more" (people, classes, money) grew, it was all but over.
Oh, and A la, if you really want to see a larger version of the photo with the fake-looking Santa, please PM your e-mail address. I had it, but I can't find it.
The Lord has given us the foolishness of preaching to save people. Words are spoken -- for good or ill.
An example to my heart now is Billy Graham. He not only preaches to the crowd and to individual people along the way but also he preaches by the sermon in shoes of his life.
Kathryn Kuhlman would agonize in prayer before a meeting because she knew that if the Holy Spirit did not work, there would be no work done.
The integrity of the "sermon in shoes" part is what keeps the Holy Spirit around. And it's the Holy Spirit that gives life to the words spoken.
Many of the words of twi were good words that were plagiarized, and because the Holy Spirit was not in the words spoken by vp and his cadre (hypocrisy is a good way to keep the Holy Spirit out of your life), the impartation of goodness and life of the Holy Spirit was not there.
Excuse me for interrupting, but do you twi vets miss/regret more the fall of ces or twi?? After all, seems your youth went with twi and then came the "revised" ces. Which organization was more disappointing and what do people miss the most about no longer 'belonging' to either?
Just curious as it seems like a very closed type of club forum, which after all these years people just keep commiserating, about the pain, the people and what happened?
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polar bear
My minds a blank.
In the immortal words of the sergeant on Hogan's Heroes="I saw nothing"
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Danny
Of all the leaders even limb guys Vince did get out there.
Do you have the rest of that poem?
I would love it if you do.
I often wondered the same things. I pfal vp talked about things of the past(india)
but living at his feet saw what appeared to be lack of power. The rare times
there was a healing session I can leaver remember someone shouting for joy
after a great healing. Then the co. line it's still the word if no one believes.
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skyrider
Danny,
Yeah....."living at his feet" at hq, lots of those after-teaching meetings and night-owls were times when he'd talk about the early years of his ministry, his learning truths, etc. We'd sit for hours hearing those accounts about uncle harry or ermal or the wierwille farmstead.
I only remember ONE healing session at all the rock of ages I attended.....and vpw was onstage directing others into ministering healing. I think someone abandoned their crutches.
At PFAL '77........any healings or anything?? Nope.
Adv. Class '79....lots on Jonestown and conspiracy theories. Any signs or whatever? Nope.
Living Victoriously (1982)......vpw got his motorcylce w/ sidecar.
And yeah........the company line, "it's still the word if no one believes."
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excathedra
great topic sky
i'd rather SEE a sermon any day because i can't sit in one more dang teaching if my life depended on it ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
but honestly, i needed way more help in healing from knowing veepee and sitting at his ugly feet
okay sowwy you veepee peeps
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WordWolf
“I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day; I'd rather one should walk with me than merely tell the way: The eye's a better pupil and more willing than the ear, fine counsel is confusing, but example's always clear.”-
Edgar A. Guest.
"I'D Rather See A Sermon by BRUCE CARROLL
I'd see him go to church almost every Sunday
He had invited me to go a time or two
made no bones about the fact that he was a Christian
And he seemed to know I was looking for some truth
Never looked at me with eyes of condemnation
though he knew I was uneasy when he pray
he was always there to lend a hand
and when he did he'd always say
that the good Lord and his blessing
are what made him act that way
I'd rather see a sermon
than to hear one anyday
I'd rather one would walk with me
than merely show the way
Actions speak much louder
than all the words can say
That's why I'd rather see a sermon
than hear one anyday
There were times that I would see him from a distance
and he didn't know that I was watching him
he always took the time to love his children
and he treated his wife like his best friend
I got the call two weeks ago this Monday
that the job I had ten years was at the end
he was the first to call and show up on my doorstep
and he said that he would be there
till we got on our feet again
I'd rather see a sermon
than to hear one anyday
I'd rather one would walk with me
than merely show the way
Actions speak much louder
than all the words can say
That's why I'd rather see a sermon
than hear one anyday
I never was much for religion
too many double-standard people let me down
but the message this man lived was very simple
he showed me what I needed
and he was there when I let Jesus
turn my life around
I'd rather see a sermon
than to hear one anyday
I'd rather one would walk with me
than merely show the way
Actions speak much louder
than all the words can say
That's why I'd rather see a sermon
than hear one anyday
That's why I'd rather see a sermon
than hear one anyday"
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waysider
Skyrider
I remember that healing session at ROA. I think it was in 1973. It was the year that The Rock came right after The Advanced Class. VPW announced that anyone needing healing was to come to the front. Then he made a call for all AC grads to come to the front as well and find someone to minister to. I did not participate because I felt that God would tell me himself if he wanted me to and that part was not for any man to decide. I did not see any great healings but did "hear" someone had thrown away their crutches. Afterwards I had very conflicted feelings concerning my decision not to participate. Did God tell me not to participate? Did God tell me but I wasn't listening? Did I have doubts about the whole scenario? In short, I came away feeling I had done the wrong thing and had let God down.
A couple of years later, a friend who desperately needed a healing, came to the ROA in hopes of finding one. Instead, he passed away in the motel. I remember thinking to myself that if his healing was meant to be, that God would surely have had plenty of candidates to pick from all assembled in one place. To me, HE was the sermon because he was the one who made the effort to act on his faith.
I think that many times "we" saw some of these people who needed true healings as some sort of trophy we could hold up and say"Look what God can do!." It was a self centered and selfish way to think and I'm sorry that I contributed to it.
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Danny
WW thanks .
Though i have never seen you in person
I'm sure I know from a previous life
Much of what you say is that sermon.
to bad in that life before we could not talk(write) and
weigh the things like we do now.
i think it says something like search the scriptuers sp daily to see if they are so.
of all the people i must scare you with my spelling and grammer
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A la prochaine
Dear Sky,
A very thought provoking thread. Thank you for sharing this at this time.
I'm not sure if this relates to what you have started here... but today I was in deep thought about how the BOTs were laiden with gifts each year at the ROA from all the different international countries represented at the ROA. Sometimes this would be 30-40 countries. Each country bringing a gift for each BOT and their spouses.
I remember each year our country coordinators would be racking their brains as to what to get the BOTs this year for the ROA.
Each gift would be displayed in the International Outreach tent for everyone to see.
I used to peruse the table and was always completely amazed at some of the most expensive and beautiful gifts from these foreign countries. I remember seeing the gifts brought from Zaire and wondered how a poor country like theirs could afford such gifts. I'm sure their own country coordinator never allowed himself such luxuries.
I was taught that the gift giving thing was from the Eastern custom where the MOG was brought a gift to show gratitude and thankfulness. Therefore, if you did not bring a gift you were breaking spiritual protocol ... NOT GOOD!!! It seemed that the BOTs year after year enjoyed receiving these gifts. Yet, I would often think... In these days and times... with the plurality that the BOTs enjoyed, why wouldn't they say.. 'NO need to bring gifts. We know you are appreciative, especially the countries who we know struggle economically.' Or perhaps, 'You have come from so far, spending sometimes 1,000's of dollars to fly here... gifts are not necessary.'
Most gifts displayed their country's most valuable resources... such as gem stones, artisan works and pure linens, wools, works done by famous individuals of that country...etc... ect. Things I would only DREAM of owning.
One year as our country coordinators were scratching their heads as to what to bring THIS year... (because each year it became more and more difficult to come up with something that hadn't been done before) I suggested perhaps something made by believers. I crocheted at the time, so I said perhaps I could crochet a shawl for the older ladies such as Emogene or Mrs. W or Wanda. They said nice idea.. but no.
About a month later a received a call asking me to make 2 shawls. This was only 3 weeks before the ROA.. or maybe even 2 .. not sure.
As anyone who's knitted or crocheted... this takes time. So of course, the little waybot that I was.. was so HONOURED that I was asked that I completely ignored the fact that this was way too short of a time and I did it anyway. Away I went, crocheting each day 'til the wee hours of the morning to finish the work.
I was told that the ladies liked them, but no thank you was said to me or even mentioned.
Sorry if I may have have derailed this thread, but when you mentioned that you saw no signs, wonders or miracles that followed their lives, IMO it was because these MOG's and MOG wannabees were very selfish individuals.
NO signs, miracles or wonders could ever follow such persons. It would have defied all of the laws of the universe.
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waysider
Of course, it would have been possible for them to have said" No thank you, put this expendature toward abundant sharing." YEAH, Riiiight!
But then again, they would have won either way.
Sorry. I guess that was a bit off topic.
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Danny
These are very much on topic.
It's what not to do. Why did they fail?
What happened to Isreal?
How do I want to be the sermon you see?
Well what they did didn't work.
Let's try something different.
It says in Eziekiel the sin of
Sodom was pride. That they had more than enough and
refused to share the extra with the flock. Lott
gave opened his house and protected the angles.
The others the men of the city went the other way.
Like asking for gifts from those believes that could not aford them.
Vp did that all the time. Right in front of my nose when i was inresidence
and at his hell hole while on staff.
He did with the prayer stuff. Loved the adoration. It went along with the MOG deal.
He could of stoped it at any time and Knew better and didn't.
Why were there no signs wonders? Why was the manifestations so bland?
No day of pentcost reaction. No sharing of plualies.
Abundant Sharing what a joke. We share do all the work it goes to HQ
deep hole nothing comes back but do more(TAX)
Before long new teaching if you don't give 15% God won"t spit on you.
We shared the reaped the abundace. Let them take care of the twigs need after they have given to us.
Should I go on and pop a vien?
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Danny
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Suda
I love that poem by Edgar A. Guest and keep a framed copy in my entrance hall at home. Here are the words.
Sermons We See
I'd rather see a sermon than hear one any day,
I'd rather one should walk with me than merely show the way.
The eye's a better pupil and more willing than the ear;
Fine counsel is confusing, but example's always clear;
And the best of all the preachers are the men who live their creeds,
For to see the good in action is what everybody needs.
I can soon learn how to do it if you'll let me see it done.
I can watch your hands in action, but your tongue too fast may run.
And the lectures you deliver may be very wise and true;
But I'd rather get my lesson by overserving what you do.
For I may not understand you and the high advice you give,
But there's no misunderstanding how you act and how you live.
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skyrider
Yeah.....that's about how I remember it, too. And it always struck me odd that "the top brass" weren't out there, front and center, to minister and pray for the people. Why?? What could be more important at this time than ministering to the people seeking God's deliverance??
Of course, "He sent His Word and healed them"..........I know. But also, there was POWER demonstrated throughout the early Church by the gift ministries. And surely, "power for abundant living" wasn't just a cliche........or in reference to material abundance. It's spiritual power, right??????
Maybe, I wasn't seeing things clearly.........so I shelved these perplexing thoughts.
I've told this story before......so I'll keep it brief. My first year as a WOW Ambassador......I went with the sole purpose of giving a year of my life to God. My wow brother and I were door-to-door witnessing and we knocked on the door of this elderly couple. With a little reluctance, they opened the door and I did most of the talking. The wife was more intent on listening than her husband......and when I talked about healing, she drew in closer.
In my bold claims of God's will for people to be healed......she confessed that her right eye was blurred by a catarac (sp). I asked her if she'd like for me to pray with her......and she willingly accepted this opportunity. I then motioned for her husband to join in this prayer......a small circle, with the wife on one side of me and the husband on the other. And, my wow brother stood close by. We closed out the world of doubt and went to the Father with specific petitions.
With intensity of love, and an outpouring of God's grace......I ended my prayer and we all opened our eyes. Immediately, the woman started crying and crying and wiping her tears. She could SEE. Her right eye was clear. With the husband crying, I started crying and we all hugged and cried together. On this day, at that moment, this woman received healing from God.
During my first WOW year, I saw three such healings.......and even though we had several tough challenges throughout the year, I could cling to these "God moments." And heck, I was just a measly, little WOW guy who knew very little bible. How much GREATER to keep growing, go in the corps, be around twi leadership..............how I was SORELY MISTAKEN.
So much of corps training was........pfal rehash, dale carnegie techniques, petty work assignments, encroaching legalism, translations according to usage, twi history, wierwille adulation, lightbearers, research paper, etc.
What about.....walking in love, walking in light, walking circumspectly.....and SEEING the power of God in operation???? Why weren't corps coordinators leading us into the SPECIFICS of the revelation and impartation manifestations???
What gives??????.........I'd rather SEE a sermon, than hear one ANY DAY.
:blink:
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Linda Z
I've shared more than once on GS when this question came up, about the time VPW ministered to me after I'd totaled my car on the way to ROA '72 and I got healed, and about the time he ministered to my son, who was instantaneously healed of a chronic illness he'd been plagued with since infancy, which by the way never returned after that day.
My firsthand accounts were brushed aside because they didn't corroborate the "twi and VP were all evil all the time" mindset that predominates here.
Of course when I told about those incidents, I included the usual disclaimers about "this doesn't excuse the wrong VP did" and blah blah blah. Nevertheless, some here still peg me as a "VPW apologist," which I'm not. Whatever.
Contrary to what was taught in twi and what many here apparently believe, life isn't all black and white.
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Danny
To cool
Thank God
Old age I didn't remember.
My mind is going . No I don't hate him.
Just hate the way things turned out.
Knowing it could of been different.
Living there at HQ just don't remember any kind of reports of present day things.
All in the past. Not that I was the incoming news gather.
Vince was a very out going make things happen.
He added more to the ministry then he got credit for.
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skyrider
Thanks Linda.......it's good to hear this.
I've always wondered why, in all my years with twi.....I never saw vpw involved in praying and ministering directly to others.
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Linda Z
Skyrider said:
Maybe this will explain why: The time he ministered to me, he just took me quietly aside and we sat on a bench, just the two of us. The time he ministered to my son was at Rome City. A lot of people were sick one day when VPW was visiting the campus. He went from room to room visiting them and praying with/ministereing to them.
As negatively as my son views twi (and did so before I did), he's still grateful for that healing. He'd had painful, severe ear infections a couple times of year since he was a little baby, and he was so glad they were gone!
I never saw VPW doing "mass healings" on the ROA stage a la Benny Hinn or Ernest Angley, either. How often he did it in private, though, I have no idea.
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A la prochaine
Linca.. is that you with Santa? I'd love to see a blow-up pic of that.. it's precious.
I love his beard and eyebrows... looks like authentic felt batting to me.
ok..back to your regularly scheduled program.
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polar bear
I'm sure VP like anyone orininally had good intentions that came through at times of need. If not no one would have followed him.
But as Sky has pointed out, it became more evident over the years that VP had his sights on the "big picture" meaning-how do we get more people.
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skyrider
Maybe that's it, polar bear.........the "big picture" seemed to focus on more people, i.e. the vpw-expressed goal of commissioning 4,000 WOWs for the 40th anniversary year, 1982. Didn't happen, though......fell quite short.
Of course, I have to stop and take into account that the original-trustee-era was coming to a close when harry died in 1977, ermal died in 1979.....and wierwille was starting to struggle with health issues, too. And, with the 40th anniversary in sight.....wierwille was busy studying and sizing up his men to see who would qualify for the 2nd president of twi.
But still.......imo, the "walls came tumbling down" because twi was OUTSIDE the blessings of God. Lots and lots of reasons, I suppose......but the corruption of the way tree was at the ROOTS. And, yeah.....it took a few years to manifest outwardly, but by 1979 (at least) it was in decay mode.
So many things........ :unsure:
In hindsight, I think that being in a small, growing twig........FAR AWAY FROM THE ROOT........was the best of memories and sweetest of times.
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Linda Z
PB and Skyrider, I agree with what you've said in the last two posts.
When the emphasis on "more, more, more" (people, classes, money) grew, it was all but over.
Oh, and A la, if you really want to see a larger version of the photo with the fake-looking Santa, please PM your e-mail address. I had it, but I can't find it.
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Kit Sober
The Lord has given us the foolishness of preaching to save people. Words are spoken -- for good or ill.
An example to my heart now is Billy Graham. He not only preaches to the crowd and to individual people along the way but also he preaches by the sermon in shoes of his life.
Kathryn Kuhlman would agonize in prayer before a meeting because she knew that if the Holy Spirit did not work, there would be no work done.
The integrity of the "sermon in shoes" part is what keeps the Holy Spirit around. And it's the Holy Spirit that gives life to the words spoken.
Many of the words of twi were good words that were plagiarized, and because the Holy Spirit was not in the words spoken by vp and his cadre (hypocrisy is a good way to keep the Holy Spirit out of your life), the impartation of goodness and life of the Holy Spirit was not there.
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Bumpy
Excuse me for interrupting, but do you twi vets miss/regret more the fall of ces or twi?? After all, seems your youth went with twi and then came the "revised" ces. Which organization was more disappointing and what do people miss the most about no longer 'belonging' to either?
Just curious as it seems like a very closed type of club forum, which after all these years people just keep commiserating, about the pain, the people and what happened?
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A la prochaine
'Bumpy,
Excuse me?
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