In TWI, we were taught “believing” is some kind of special power, where we could believe for things that we wanted. Name it claim it so to speak. We just had to stay our mind with a “believing image of victory” and we’d get what we believed for. And that it is a law that works for saint or sinner alike. (Chapter and verse please).
I have notes from TWI teachings on the subject of believing where it was taught that we should “demand” what we are “believing” for, that it’s God’s law and therefore if we believe big enough He has to bring it to pass.
Believing takes place in the mind, and there really is no power of your mind outside your own body. No where in the Bible does say to “believe for things”.
I do see in the Bible that we can have faith, (Pistis) which means trust, we can trust in God and His promises. Faith requires an object to trust in, such as God, Jesus Christ or promises by God. But the so called law believing as taught by TWI was nothing more then trusting in our mind power, or believing in our believing, IMO.
Our English word “Faith” comes from the Latin word “Fides” which means “trust, confidence, reliance, belief”.
Wierwille said believing is a verb it connotes action, and he’s right, but the Greek word Pistis which is often what Wierwille was referring to as Believing is a noun and is better translated faith or trust. The Greek word Pisteuo is the verb form, and it would be translated believe or believing and is an exercise or acting on faith. It’s not our believing as defined by TWI. It’s our trusting God and acting on God’s promise to bring it to pass.
An example of faith and acting on it is the story of Elijah in I Kings 17:1-6. God tells Elijah to go to a brook and Ravens will bring him food. Elijah trusts God and acting on that faith in God Elijah goes to the brook. It wasn’t Elijah telling God to feed him, it was God telling Elijah go here and I’ll feed you. Elijah simply trusted that what God said would happen. And it was God’s power that brought it to pass.
Faith is such a simple thing for God to require of us, it doesn’t require mental gymnastics to get our believing up, or having believing with teeth, it’s simply trusting God to fulfill His promises. We can have faith in, or believe God to receive the promises of God, (written or verbal). But it’s not our will be done, it’s His will be done. We don’t demand things from Him, but we can ask of Him in prayer (James 4:2, 3).
Is fear negative believing in reverse? Not from my study of scripture. The fear in the heart of a mother cannot cause the death of a child, that’s ridicules. Again, no where in scripture does it say this. Wierwille taught this based on one verse in Job.
Job feared for his children and Wierwille taught because “it’s a law” it came to pass, causing Job’s children to die. Bologna! Job was simply making a statement. We all have fear at times and most of the time nothing bad happens.
II Timothy 3:12 tells us that all those living Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, further it says to rejoice in sufferings or tribulations in Romans 5:3 and that these tribulations or suffering will produce patience or perseverance, Romans 5:4. Looks to me that if your living godly bad stuff will happen based on scripture, but says noting about if you aren’t believing enough or if you have fear.
Jesus said there would be wars, earthquakes, famine (Matthew 24:6, 7). One only has to look at Paul’s ministry to see that he dealt with many hardships (2 Corinthians 11:23-28). Did he have fear? Maybe he just wasn’t believing big enough? No, we have an adversary, and we live in a fallen world, and sometimes bad things happen.
No, it was the Grateful Dead's fault. At the exact time Mt. St. Helens erupted they were on stage in Portland, OR playing a song called 'Fire on the Mountain'.
This is a good topic and glad it was brought up. This is my take and meaning to derail this thread of my personal take just adding my two cents.
I always had a problem with the law of believing too.
I remember once in the 9th Corps residence I became so sick, I think it was the Russian Flu (who knows). I was so sick I felt an impending doom to my longevity.
My Twig Coordinator came in and told me to believe to get well, quite coldly but definately not bowel of mercies I was "needing" to hear in my weakened state.
The campus nurse Fran came in to check on me and I told her what I was told to do. She said, you lay here until you feel better to move. She was a registered nurse in my Corps.
Who do you think I listened to and I took her advice. This is my story and I am sticking to it.
I often got the impression that believing was like a magic wand to get what ever you wanted.
How arrogant of us humans to think we can ask and just get it. Patience is the key.
It was an intimidating tool to give more mentally, physically and financially to the ministry we thought was just it.
We all have our negative days and our positive days.
Welcome to humanity and the 21st century.
I know when I am negative (whine) having a bad day and positive having a good day.
I have learned to encourage someone when I see them down and take encouragement when I am so, such is life, uhh.
I learned to be callased like we all have been exposed to in the ministry and learning to own it and change.
Does it not say, that the rain falls on the just and the unjust? Also the sun shines on all.
James 4 is appropiate here too, because, who does know what things will become of what we think.
I just can't stomach we can believe for everything. I think we were meant to be humble and wait.
HE that has NO doubts, not a trickle, not a whisper, not a millisecond, not a scintilla of doubt will succeed
So you just went spiritual enough to be able to hold onto the power and make it work for you!?
Sorry I'm late getting back to this thread
2 weeks ago I had an earache not in the inner ear but an inflammation in the outer canal. Used to get them all the time as a kid excruciating pain. SO on Sunday after services I found two of the brethren and they anointed my head with oil and laid hands on me and prayed to Heavenly Father in the name of His son Jesus Christ for my ear to be healed. And as I prayed silently with them I felt this "pop" in my ear and fluid draining out and the pain was gone.
Heavenly Father did that thru the power of the Holy Ghost. When I asked for that blessing I did so because I KNEW that by having a blessing the ear would stop aching.
Neither I or the brethren held on to the power
Neither I or the brethren made it work for me
that is Heavenly Fathers job and He does it very well
It's what I posted earlier
when we get the notion that it is us our faith in self that is responsible that is when we fail
It Is Faith in Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ that counts
TWI lead us away from that truth
TWi wanted us to fail--because then they had their hooks in --telling is more classes, more ABS, More blessing leadership would make it work
WE are by our mortal natures powerless
any power that works in us does so by the grace and will of Heavenly Father Not us
I think TWI did well making mountains out of molehills.
"Because of our believing, Joe Schmoe didn't stub his toe, get a hangnail, get infected, spend fifteen weeks in the hospital.."
Ordinarily, "the law" worked when things were pretty small or insignificant, like getting your favorite parking spot.
"see, it works.. I is soooo blessed.."
What about the ninety nine times I didn't get it?
Ah, the devil. He is attacking "the household", and trying to interfere with our rights to parking spots. Believing must still work; something's happening.. he'd not fight us, if we weren't on the right track..
as if he has nothing better to do, than to foil my best attempts at believing faithfully, so as my lazy a** doesn't have to walk a few more yards to the store.
I didn't need a class to figure out how to get my favorite parking spot, I already knew how to do that: just drive around the lot half a day until it was empty.
I had a dream today while I was taking a nap today about the law of believing of the Way Ministry
First the words came "How can a law of God take away free will"
Matt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
yes nothing shall be impossible to us
To remove a mountain into a sea can be done one bucket of dirt at a time
because the person believing is taking action
but what about if another person is believing that the mountain not be cast into the sea and he taking believing action too
While we can put a mountain into a sea, but too get it done we must have a need and all people must see the same need
because the poor guy might put your dirt back as fast as you take your dirt away
So its clear to me Jesus Christ was talking about things you want to changed in your life because that is the only place you have free will
the word of God is a personal book
its about changing your personal life and helping others see how to changed their life
so the mountains are the bad things you do not like within your life the place only you have control
so it can not be a spiritual law but a personal law within each person personal hearts
taking away the ideals or habits you do not want within your personal life were you got full power
Faith is trusting God. God says someting will happen, you believe in it, trust Him or expect it. You do the actions He requires.
Believng is deciding something needs to happen? Don't you go to The Word to see "What's available"? and believe based on that? Doesn't that put God in control, or is He bound to some rules He made? Does that have something or nothing to do with God "Magnifying his Word above His name? Isn't that like faith?
I still believe you can pray for things. I was listening to this Joel Osteen fellow and he said basically to pray and believe for you goals, and if you get them, praise God, if not, don't get upset, stay in faith, God has something better in mind. Now in this logic God is definitely in control. He is a good parent. He won't give you everything you want every time, He gives you the best and/or what you don't know you need.
I'm still fuzzy as to the distinction between twi's believing and true Christian faith, if there is one. Please don't stop this thread.
Great point, Bolshevik! Reading the passage that VPW used to "document" the law of believing - it appears he ignored the context. Verse 22 implies a linkage between the "faith" mentioned in verse 21 and "ask in prayer" of verse 22. Furthermore, some sort of a partnership with God is implied with the very mention of prayer. When we pray - are we asking an inanimate force or are we asking God Almighty?
Matthew 21:20-22 NASB
20 Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?" 21 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. 22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
This law of believing doctrine is an arrogant way to tell God to take a hike and we'll handle it from here. In effect it severs a relationship with God. With the focus off God one is left with either being self-centered or fixating on the thing desired.
What or who – technically speaking – is actually moving the mountain? VPW said the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike. If a sinner could move that mountain then either there really is some unseen inanimate force [like a mind-over-matter thing, "may the Force be with you"] at work or God is forced into doing it since someone rubbed the lamp.
By simply cross-referencing an amazing feat attributed to faith one can see there's more to it than just something the believer "does." An instance of faith shutting the mouths of lions is mentioned in Daniel 6 – where King Darius assumed the only way for Daniel to survive was for GOD to rescue him [verse 20 – okay, you say "But Darius didn't take the PFAL Class yet and didn't know about the law of believing." I guess my faith isn't strong enough to shut your mouth – so I'll defer to Daniel's side of the story] and Daniel confirms the king's assumption saying God sent his angel to shut the mouths of the lions [verse 22]. In summary, the passage concludes with a simple expression of partnership – Daniel had trusted in God [verse 23].
Hebrews 11:33 NASB
who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
Daniel 6:19-23 NASB
19 At the first light of dawn, the king got up and hurried to the lions' den. 20 When he came near the den, he called to Daniel in an anguished voice, "Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to rescue you from the lions?"
21 Daniel answered, "O king, live forever! 22 My God sent his angel, and he shut the mouths of the lions. They have not hurt me, because I was found innocent in his sight. Nor have I ever done any wrong before you, O king."
23 The king was overjoyed and gave orders to lift Daniel out of the den. And when Daniel was lifted from the den, no wound was found on him, because he had trusted in his God.
Yes, this teaching is very destructive. The Way used to teach people that if you didn't obey the Word (which really meant obey them), you would be open to injury from devil spirits and that they could do as they will to your life (cause disaster, inflict disease). Isn't that why we call things around here "Grease Spot"? We'll be grease spots by midnight if we don't follow the leadership of Loy and the Fox.
Well, I have blown it plenty and I'm still in once piece. Teaching people what they fear will happen only strikes fear into the hearts of people.
Everybody has fears. Thinking that fear will produce tangible results makes you even more terrified of what you're afraid of which makes you think you will get what you're afraid of, which makes you more afraid...it's a circular cycle that ends in destruction.
The "law" of believing does nothing but back believers into a corner and imprison them. Curse that wicked doctrine. If there was ever a doctrine of the devil spirit realm, that's one of them. Thanks a lot TWI.
I understand your confusion with the law of believing as it was presented in the early days of TWI.
Simply stated, it was being able to" think" things into or out of existence.
This was the whole premise behind the "lift list".
1. Determine if it's available.
2. Get your needs and wants parallel with each other.
3. Picture as clearly as you can what you are "lifting".
4. Speak in tongues.
It's rubbish.
I don't say this to discredit prayer or positive attitude or even speaking in tongues, for that matter.
I say this because it simply is not true that by merely thinking or picturing something you can control whether it exists (or transpires) or does not exist.
It's the same kind of thinking that a fourth grader employs when they try to levitate a table with "mind power".
If anyone has used this method to levitate a table recently, please post your experience here so the whole concept can be reexamined.
Remember when Saul's son Jonathan and his armour bearer took on all those Phillistine soldiers. His believing was that there was no restraint to the Lord to save by many or by few. And that's logical. If God is really involved in the situation, then He can protect Jonathan from a million soldiers as easily as He can protect him from 2, right?
So, if God is really involved in helping the woman get an apartment, then why should red drapes be such an obstacle?
See, with all respect johniam, I think your logic is faulty here. Jonathan and his armour bearer were stepping out on a promise of God, "you will possess the land". Jonathan stepped out trusting God would be with him because he knew God didn't want them there, "drive the inhabitants out of the land". And because God had promised, he performed.
This is a lot different from just finding something that you feel you need/want in life and thinking that by your concentrating hard enough with mind pictures and quoting verses to yourself that somehow God will materialize what you desire (luxury car, great job, sick-free). God never promises these things, rather the majority of these are left up to us to aquire the discipline necessary in life to go after them, which God allows us to freely do.
To say that God helped a woman get an apartment is a little unfounded. I may be praying for an apartment I want. I may fill out an application, they may give it to me. And when they do I say, "God answered my prayer!". The problem is that 10,000 other people who wouldn't give God the time of day also got apartments. Were they operating the law of believing also? Or is it just the simple fact that you needed a place to live, someone was offering a place to live, you asked if you could live there, and they said, "yes"?
Now I'm not saying God doesn't meet needs. But he only seems to respond to what he has promised. Anything outside of that, is a rare blessing indeed.
The law of believng - works for saint and sinner alike, in PFAL
So regardless of what a person thinks about God, or Jesus Christ, the law of believing "works".
Soooo, I guess "works" means getting whatever it is you want, what you "believe for".
It's a mental thing in PFAL, but other non-Christian components figure in - taking some action, acting like you've "already got" what you're believing for, saying and speaking it into being.
Non-Christian sources I've read describe similar ideas - bring an idea or thought into reality by the will, willing it into being. Make a place for it to come to you, like an icon or a physical rendering of some kind - statue, rabbits foot, that kind of thing.
The Christian is taught to apply these "universal principles" as the fuel and vehicle for the "promises of God" to come into being.
For a non-Christian to apply the law of believing in a fail-proof way all of the assumed advantages that a Christian would have can't apply. It stands to reason, the universal kind - they're not Christians so they wouldn't expect to do anything a Christian would.
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith
This is the one everyone learned in PFAL. Speak, say, don't doubt, believe, whatever you're focusing on will happen, no boud adoud it.
Another possible interpretation - in Mark, Jesus had been at the Temple, confronting and generally raising hell with the money changers and those selling stuff in His "Father House", turning it into a religious 7-11.
He had the deal with the fig tree, a tree with no fruit. They left the city for the night and returned the next day. They say the tree that Jesus has cursed withered up.
When he was talking about "this mountain" He may have been speaking of the Temple itself and the fact that He'd already confronted and thrown out people he felt were desecrating it.Hey, take the whole thing and give it a good fling.Get rid of the iniquity and don't doubt you can do it - it's what God wants.
It may also have been a reference to what was recorded in John 2 - when asked for a sign Jesus had answered that if they "destroyed this temple" He would raise it up in 3 days. They took that to mean the Temple building but he was referring to Himself. "With God all things are possible". But are they probable? What does God want? What's a "mountain" to God, if He's involved with all of this?
Most sermons flog the image of Jesus speaking to His disciples and pointing to mountains and saying "this mountain, that one over there", you can do anything if you don't doubt.
Translating that into a "law of believing" is suspect. Jesus never taught those things in a context outside of faith in God. The context of the events in Mark isn't of Jesus trying to get His followers to develop positive mind pictures.
I'm all for "positive thinking" and having a generally positive outlook on what I do and how I live. That's a product of a lot of things, not an application of a principle. The positivity comes from something else, not of itself. So to speak. Positivity-wise.
That's my opinion anyway. None of the other Believers-Classic verses stand up to defining a law of believing either, that I can see.
People will say they prayed and believed and something good happened just like PFAL teaches, so it's true for them. IMO, it's not true for them, they're fooling themselves. Factor in the number of times that the believing doesn't produce the desired results on schedule and the "law" will have to be redefined to include other factors and components. So it's definitely not a squinch and believe and receive law.
I do pray, I do expect good to happen. I just don't always drag God into every little thing I get a bee in my bonnet about. Give to Caesar the things that are Caesars, and the things that are God's, give to Him. It's simple.
People will say they prayed and believed and something good happened just like PFAL teaches, so it's true for them. IMO, it's not true for them, they're fooling themselves. Factor in the number of times that the believing doesn't produce the desired results on schedule and the "law" will have to be redefined to include other factors and components.
Great points socks. That's just it, if it doesn't happen as scheduled then they look at you and say, "you must not be believing God", which does nothing but condemn the "truster". This leaves people discouraged wondering why they can't trust God, when in reality, when the Bible speaks of trusting God, it has nothing to do with learning some mystical formula of materialization and prosperity.
We trust in God, yes, in his promises. Anything beyond that for the most part is left up to discipline, hard work, and perseverance.
You want a great paying job? Get out there and get the education necessary to get one. Try being a high school drop out and getting a job as a corporate officer at Microsoft. It will not happen, I don't care how much you trust God. Want good health? Well don't think you can smoke for 40 years, eat like a pig, and never work out and think you can "believe" your way through life to be healthy. Furthermore, when you do get lung cancer from smoking 40 years, I wouldn't count on God healing you either. Maybe he will, but the odds are against you as history proves.
Proverbs 1:23-28
If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you.
But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,
since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke,
I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you--
when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.
Top 10 Things to Believe For - Print and Tape to Your Mirror:
The Outreach of God's Word.
The Trustees.
Those Who Serve and Lead God's Way peop's.
Grab any "lift list" of any Wayfer worth their salt and those things will be at the top, if not the top 3, in the top 5. Outreach, Trustees, Leaders.
Add a dash of Material Abundance and you're done shaving.
One might say that who you are could be understood by what you pray for. What you're believing for.
If the "Word" doesn't "move", you weren't believing. For it to move. Somewhere. Out...there.
If the Trustees get a case of the rash one week, guess who's not doin' their due?
If the Local Wayjadeen doesn't know his hiney from a steering wheel, buckle up for a bumpy meeting, he's fighting unbelief. Guess whose?
Everything would be better if people would just believe. Believe. Why can't you just believe???
All anyone has to do to debunk the Believing Myth is look at that last 40 years of the Way. If that's where believing takes you - fuggeddaboudit.
Of course as you said Lone, it's not their fault. It's yours. And yours. And mine. We, in our unbelief, out believed the Big Believers. Which I guess makes us the Bigger Believers. Our believing out believed theirs. In the Believing Wars, we trounced them and we didn't even have to believe. We just had to not believe! Incredible - by getting rid of all the naysayers a void of such magnitude was created that what was left got engulfed by the sheer nothingness of our not being there!
Well, actually I was hoping to just make a smarta$$ remark and let it go at that.
But, if you insist,
Wierwille, like Norman Vincent Peale, and Og Mandino and a whole host of other variously-talented salesmen and hucksters drew a great deal of their dogma from the common logic of the fringe psycho-babble crowd of the day. Jung and some other big-name Shrinks (whose names escape me at the moment0 were real big on the "power" of thinking this or that, with all sorts of mystical overtones. Wierwille - as was his norm - was plowing fields someone else had already tilled with his magical solution to all of life's problems - BELIEVE! He just gave the psychobabble a bit more of a religious tone.
While in the more traditional Christian church, we're taught that God will answer our prayers if we just do it "right". What that "right" way is, tends to be a very mobile target though. And all the basic tenets of the faith - the virgin birth, God's offspring living amongst men, the sinless perfect man, the human sacrifice - all of that - have been around since the dawn of time in numerous cultures, describing a whole plethora of different gods and religious beliefs. And - even though we have virtually no evidence that anything The Bible says is true or "God's Word", we still zealously adhere to it as if there couldn't be any doubt as to it's veracity. When, in actuality, when it comes to real proof, we got nuttin'...
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Outin88.
In TWI, we were taught “believing” is some kind of special power, where we could believe for things that we wanted. Name it claim it so to speak. We just had to stay our mind with a “believing image of victory” and we’d get what we believed for. And that it is a law that works for saint or sinner alike. (Chapter and verse please).
I have notes from TWI teachings on the subject of believing where it was taught that we should “demand” what we are “believing” for, that it’s God’s law and therefore if we believe big enough He has to bring it to pass.
Believing takes place in the mind, and there really is no power of your mind outside your own body. No where in the Bible does say to “believe for things”.
I do see in the Bible that we can have faith, (Pistis) which means trust, we can trust in God and His promises. Faith requires an object to trust in, such as God, Jesus Christ or promises by God. But the so called law believing as taught by TWI was nothing more then trusting in our mind power, or believing in our believing, IMO.
Our English word “Faith” comes from the Latin word “Fides” which means “trust, confidence, reliance, belief”.
Wierwille said believing is a verb it connotes action, and he’s right, but the Greek word Pistis which is often what Wierwille was referring to as Believing is a noun and is better translated faith or trust. The Greek word Pisteuo is the verb form, and it would be translated believe or believing and is an exercise or acting on faith. It’s not our believing as defined by TWI. It’s our trusting God and acting on God’s promise to bring it to pass.
An example of faith and acting on it is the story of Elijah in I Kings 17:1-6. God tells Elijah to go to a brook and Ravens will bring him food. Elijah trusts God and acting on that faith in God Elijah goes to the brook. It wasn’t Elijah telling God to feed him, it was God telling Elijah go here and I’ll feed you. Elijah simply trusted that what God said would happen. And it was God’s power that brought it to pass.
Faith is such a simple thing for God to require of us, it doesn’t require mental gymnastics to get our believing up, or having believing with teeth, it’s simply trusting God to fulfill His promises. We can have faith in, or believe God to receive the promises of God, (written or verbal). But it’s not our will be done, it’s His will be done. We don’t demand things from Him, but we can ask of Him in prayer (James 4:2, 3).
Is fear negative believing in reverse? Not from my study of scripture. The fear in the heart of a mother cannot cause the death of a child, that’s ridicules. Again, no where in scripture does it say this. Wierwille taught this based on one verse in Job.
Job feared for his children and Wierwille taught because “it’s a law” it came to pass, causing Job’s children to die. Bologna! Job was simply making a statement. We all have fear at times and most of the time nothing bad happens.
II Timothy 3:12 tells us that all those living Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution, further it says to rejoice in sufferings or tribulations in Romans 5:3 and that these tribulations or suffering will produce patience or perseverance, Romans 5:4. Looks to me that if your living godly bad stuff will happen based on scripture, but says noting about if you aren’t believing enough or if you have fear.
Jesus said there would be wars, earthquakes, famine (Matthew 24:6, 7). One only has to look at Paul’s ministry to see that he dealt with many hardships (2 Corinthians 11:23-28). Did he have fear? Maybe he just wasn’t believing big enough? No, we have an adversary, and we live in a fallen world, and sometimes bad things happen.
Edited by Outin88.Link to comment
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coolchef
being a man of not many words...
i was told if anyone had a NEED to move a mountain they cuold
never saw one move
oops mt.st. helens
my cuz the oe was wow there that year
must have been his fault!
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johniam
No, it was the Grateful Dead's fault. At the exact time Mt. St. Helens erupted they were on stage in Portland, OR playing a song called 'Fire on the Mountain'.
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fellowshipper
This is a good topic and glad it was brought up. This is my take and meaning to derail this thread of my personal take just adding my two cents.
I always had a problem with the law of believing too.
I remember once in the 9th Corps residence I became so sick, I think it was the Russian Flu (who knows). I was so sick I felt an impending doom to my longevity.
My Twig Coordinator came in and told me to believe to get well, quite coldly but definately not bowel of mercies I was "needing" to hear in my weakened state.
The campus nurse Fran came in to check on me and I told her what I was told to do. She said, you lay here until you feel better to move. She was a registered nurse in my Corps.
Who do you think I listened to and I took her advice. This is my story and I am sticking to it.
I often got the impression that believing was like a magic wand to get what ever you wanted.
How arrogant of us humans to think we can ask and just get it. Patience is the key.
It was an intimidating tool to give more mentally, physically and financially to the ministry we thought was just it.
We all have our negative days and our positive days.
Welcome to humanity and the 21st century.
I know when I am negative (whine) having a bad day and positive having a good day.
I have learned to encourage someone when I see them down and take encouragement when I am so, such is life, uhh.
I learned to be callased like we all have been exposed to in the ministry and learning to own it and change.
Does it not say, that the rain falls on the just and the unjust? Also the sun shines on all.
James 4 is appropiate here too, because, who does know what things will become of what we think.
I just can't stomach we can believe for everything. I think we were meant to be humble and wait.
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templelady
Sorry I'm late getting back to this thread
2 weeks ago I had an earache not in the inner ear but an inflammation in the outer canal. Used to get them all the time as a kid excruciating pain. SO on Sunday after services I found two of the brethren and they anointed my head with oil and laid hands on me and prayed to Heavenly Father in the name of His son Jesus Christ for my ear to be healed. And as I prayed silently with them I felt this "pop" in my ear and fluid draining out and the pain was gone.
Heavenly Father did that thru the power of the Holy Ghost. When I asked for that blessing I did so because I KNEW that by having a blessing the ear would stop aching.
Neither I or the brethren held on to the power
Neither I or the brethren made it work for me
that is Heavenly Fathers job and He does it very well
It's what I posted earlier
when we get the notion that it is us our faith in self that is responsible that is when we fail
It Is Faith in Heavenly Father and His Son Jesus Christ that counts
TWI lead us away from that truth
TWi wanted us to fail--because then they had their hooks in --telling is more classes, more ABS, More blessing leadership would make it work
WE are by our mortal natures powerless
any power that works in us does so by the grace and will of Heavenly Father Not us
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Ham
I think TWI did well making mountains out of molehills.
"Because of our believing, Joe Schmoe didn't stub his toe, get a hangnail, get infected, spend fifteen weeks in the hospital.."
Ordinarily, "the law" worked when things were pretty small or insignificant, like getting your favorite parking spot.
"see, it works.. I is soooo blessed.."
What about the ninety nine times I didn't get it?
Ah, the devil. He is attacking "the household", and trying to interfere with our rights to parking spots. Believing must still work; something's happening.. he'd not fight us, if we weren't on the right track..
as if he has nothing better to do, than to foil my best attempts at believing faithfully, so as my lazy a** doesn't have to walk a few more yards to the store.
I didn't need a class to figure out how to get my favorite parking spot, I already knew how to do that: just drive around the lot half a day until it was empty.
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year2027
God first
Beloved All
God loves us all my friends
I had a dream today while I was taking a nap today about the law of believing of the Way Ministry
First the words came "How can a law of God take away free will"
Matt 17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
yes nothing shall be impossible to us
To remove a mountain into a sea can be done one bucket of dirt at a time
because the person believing is taking action
but what about if another person is believing that the mountain not be cast into the sea and he taking believing action too
While we can put a mountain into a sea, but too get it done we must have a need and all people must see the same need
because the poor guy might put your dirt back as fast as you take your dirt away
So its clear to me Jesus Christ was talking about things you want to changed in your life because that is the only place you have free will
the word of God is a personal book
its about changing your personal life and helping others see how to changed their life
so the mountains are the bad things you do not like within your life the place only you have control
so it can not be a spiritual law but a personal law within each person personal hearts
taking away the ideals or habits you do not want within your personal life were you got full power
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Ham
Thanks Roy.. those are some good words.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Mr. Hammeroni
God loves you my friend
your welcome
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Bolshevik
So,
Faith is trusting God. God says someting will happen, you believe in it, trust Him or expect it. You do the actions He requires.
Believng is deciding something needs to happen? Don't you go to The Word to see "What's available"? and believe based on that? Doesn't that put God in control, or is He bound to some rules He made? Does that have something or nothing to do with God "Magnifying his Word above His name? Isn't that like faith?
I still believe you can pray for things. I was listening to this Joel Osteen fellow and he said basically to pray and believe for you goals, and if you get them, praise God, if not, don't get upset, stay in faith, God has something better in mind. Now in this logic God is definitely in control. He is a good parent. He won't give you everything you want every time, He gives you the best and/or what you don't know you need.
I'm still fuzzy as to the distinction between twi's believing and true Christian faith, if there is one. Please don't stop this thread.
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T-Bone
Great point, Bolshevik! Reading the passage that VPW used to "document" the law of believing - it appears he ignored the context. Verse 22 implies a linkage between the "faith" mentioned in verse 21 and "ask in prayer" of verse 22. Furthermore, some sort of a partnership with God is implied with the very mention of prayer. When we pray - are we asking an inanimate force or are we asking God Almighty?
Matthew 21:20-22 NASB
20 Seeing this, the disciples were amazed and asked, "How did the fig tree wither all at once?" 21 And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it will happen. 22 "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
This law of believing doctrine is an arrogant way to tell God to take a hike and we'll handle it from here. In effect it severs a relationship with God. With the focus off God one is left with either being self-centered or fixating on the thing desired.
What or who – technically speaking – is actually moving the mountain? VPW said the law of believing works for saint and sinner alike. If a sinner could move that mountain then either there really is some unseen inanimate force [like a mind-over-matter thing, "may the Force be with you"] at work or God is forced into doing it since someone rubbed the lamp.
By simply cross-referencing an amazing feat attributed to faith one can see there's more to it than just something the believer "does." An instance of faith shutting the mouths of lions is mentioned in Daniel 6 – where King Darius assumed the only way for Daniel to survive was for GOD to rescue him [verse 20 – okay, you say "But Darius didn't take the PFAL Class yet and didn't know about the law of believing." I guess my faith isn't strong enough to shut your mouth
– so I'll defer to Daniel's side of the story] and Daniel confirms the king's assumption saying God sent his angel to shut the mouths of the lions [verse 22]. In summary, the passage concludes with a simple expression of partnership – Daniel had trusted in God [verse 23].
Hebrews 11:33 NASB
who by faith conquered kingdoms, performed acts of righteousness, obtained promises, shut the mouths of lions,
Daniel 6:19-23 NASB
19 At the first light of dawn, the king got up and hurried to the lions' den. 20 When he came near the den, he called to Daniel in an anguished voice, "Daniel, servant of the living God, has your God, whom you serve continually, been able to rescue you from the lions?"
21 Daniel answered, "O king, live forever! 22 My God sent his angel, and he shut the mouths of the lions. They have not hurt me, because I was found innocent in his sight. Nor have I ever done any wrong before you, O king."
23 The king was overjoyed and gave orders to lift Daniel out of the den. And when Daniel was lifted from the den, no wound was found on him, because he had trusted in his God.
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Yes, this teaching is very destructive. The Way used to teach people that if you didn't obey the Word (which really meant obey them), you would be open to injury from devil spirits and that they could do as they will to your life (cause disaster, inflict disease). Isn't that why we call things around here "Grease Spot"? We'll be grease spots by midnight if we don't follow the leadership of Loy and the Fox.
Well, I have blown it plenty and I'm still in once piece. Teaching people what they fear will happen only strikes fear into the hearts of people.
Everybody has fears. Thinking that fear will produce tangible results makes you even more terrified of what you're afraid of which makes you think you will get what you're afraid of, which makes you more afraid...it's a circular cycle that ends in destruction.
The "law" of believing does nothing but back believers into a corner and imprison them. Curse that wicked doctrine. If there was ever a doctrine of the devil spirit realm, that's one of them. Thanks a lot TWI.
Lone Wolf
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waysider
Bolshevik
I understand your confusion with the law of believing as it was presented in the early days of TWI.
Simply stated, it was being able to" think" things into or out of existence.
This was the whole premise behind the "lift list".
1. Determine if it's available.
2. Get your needs and wants parallel with each other.
3. Picture as clearly as you can what you are "lifting".
4. Speak in tongues.
It's rubbish.
I don't say this to discredit prayer or positive attitude or even speaking in tongues, for that matter.
I say this because it simply is not true that by merely thinking or picturing something you can control whether it exists (or transpires) or does not exist.
It's the same kind of thinking that a fourth grader employs when they try to levitate a table with "mind power".
If anyone has used this method to levitate a table recently, please post your experience here so the whole concept can be reexamined.
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Johniam, you said...
See, with all respect johniam, I think your logic is faulty here. Jonathan and his armour bearer were stepping out on a promise of God, "you will possess the land". Jonathan stepped out trusting God would be with him because he knew God didn't want them there, "drive the inhabitants out of the land". And because God had promised, he performed.
This is a lot different from just finding something that you feel you need/want in life and thinking that by your concentrating hard enough with mind pictures and quoting verses to yourself that somehow God will materialize what you desire (luxury car, great job, sick-free). God never promises these things, rather the majority of these are left up to us to aquire the discipline necessary in life to go after them, which God allows us to freely do.
To say that God helped a woman get an apartment is a little unfounded. I may be praying for an apartment I want. I may fill out an application, they may give it to me. And when they do I say, "God answered my prayer!". The problem is that 10,000 other people who wouldn't give God the time of day also got apartments. Were they operating the law of believing also? Or is it just the simple fact that you needed a place to live, someone was offering a place to live, you asked if you could live there, and they said, "yes"?
Now I'm not saying God doesn't meet needs. But he only seems to respond to what he has promised. Anything outside of that, is a rare blessing indeed.
Lone Wolf
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socks
The law of believng - works for saint and sinner alike, in PFAL
So regardless of what a person thinks about God, or Jesus Christ, the law of believing "works".
Soooo, I guess "works" means getting whatever it is you want, what you "believe for".
It's a mental thing in PFAL, but other non-Christian components figure in - taking some action, acting like you've "already got" what you're believing for, saying and speaking it into being.
Non-Christian sources I've read describe similar ideas - bring an idea or thought into reality by the will, willing it into being. Make a place for it to come to you, like an icon or a physical rendering of some kind - statue, rabbits foot, that kind of thing.
The Christian is taught to apply these "universal principles" as the fuel and vehicle for the "promises of God" to come into being.
For a non-Christian to apply the law of believing in a fail-proof way all of the assumed advantages that a Christian would have can't apply. It stands to reason, the universal kind - they're not Christians so they wouldn't expect to do anything a Christian would.
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith
This is the one everyone learned in PFAL. Speak, say, don't doubt, believe, whatever you're focusing on will happen, no boud adoud it.
Another possible interpretation - in Mark, Jesus had been at the Temple, confronting and generally raising hell with the money changers and those selling stuff in His "Father House", turning it into a religious 7-11.
He had the deal with the fig tree, a tree with no fruit. They left the city for the night and returned the next day. They say the tree that Jesus has cursed withered up.
When he was talking about "this mountain" He may have been speaking of the Temple itself and the fact that He'd already confronted and thrown out people he felt were desecrating it.Hey, take the whole thing and give it a good fling.Get rid of the iniquity and don't doubt you can do it - it's what God wants.
It may also have been a reference to what was recorded in John 2 - when asked for a sign Jesus had answered that if they "destroyed this temple" He would raise it up in 3 days. They took that to mean the Temple building but he was referring to Himself. "With God all things are possible". But are they probable? What does God want? What's a "mountain" to God, if He's involved with all of this?
Most sermons flog the image of Jesus speaking to His disciples and pointing to mountains and saying "this mountain, that one over there", you can do anything if you don't doubt.
Translating that into a "law of believing" is suspect. Jesus never taught those things in a context outside of faith in God. The context of the events in Mark isn't of Jesus trying to get His followers to develop positive mind pictures.
I'm all for "positive thinking" and having a generally positive outlook on what I do and how I live. That's a product of a lot of things, not an application of a principle. The positivity comes from something else, not of itself. So to speak. Positivity-wise.
That's my opinion anyway. None of the other Believers-Classic verses stand up to defining a law of believing either, that I can see.
People will say they prayed and believed and something good happened just like PFAL teaches, so it's true for them. IMO, it's not true for them, they're fooling themselves. Factor in the number of times that the believing doesn't produce the desired results on schedule and the "law" will have to be redefined to include other factors and components. So it's definitely not a squinch and believe and receive law.
I do pray, I do expect good to happen. I just don't always drag God into every little thing I get a bee in my bonnet about. Give to Caesar the things that are Caesars, and the things that are God's, give to Him. It's simple.
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Socks, you said...
Great points socks. That's just it, if it doesn't happen as scheduled then they look at you and say, "you must not be believing God", which does nothing but condemn the "truster". This leaves people discouraged wondering why they can't trust God, when in reality, when the Bible speaks of trusting God, it has nothing to do with learning some mystical formula of materialization and prosperity.
We trust in God, yes, in his promises. Anything beyond that for the most part is left up to discipline, hard work, and perseverance.
You want a great paying job? Get out there and get the education necessary to get one. Try being a high school drop out and getting a job as a corporate officer at Microsoft. It will not happen, I don't care how much you trust God. Want good health? Well don't think you can smoke for 40 years, eat like a pig, and never work out and think you can "believe" your way through life to be healthy. Furthermore, when you do get lung cancer from smoking 40 years, I wouldn't count on God healing you either. Maybe he will, but the odds are against you as history proves.
Proverbs 1:23-28
If you had responded to my rebuke, I would have poured out my heart to you and made my thoughts known to you.
But since you rejected me when I called and no one gave heed when I stretched out my hand,
since you ignored all my advice and would not accept my rebuke,
I in turn will laugh at your disaster; I will mock when calamity overtakes you--
when calamity overtakes you like a storm, when disaster sweeps over you like a whirlwind, when distress and trouble overwhelm you.
Then they will call to me but I will not answer; they will look for me but will not find me.
Lone Wolf
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socks
Hmmm, interesting point there Loner.
Top 10 Things to Believe For - Print and Tape to Your Mirror:
The Outreach of God's Word.
The Trustees.
Those Who Serve and Lead God's Way peop's.
Grab any "lift list" of any Wayfer worth their salt and those things will be at the top, if not the top 3, in the top 5. Outreach, Trustees, Leaders.
Add a dash of Material Abundance and you're done shaving.
One might say that who you are could be understood by what you pray for. What you're believing for.
If the "Word" doesn't "move", you weren't believing. For it to move. Somewhere. Out...there.
If the Trustees get a case of the rash one week, guess who's not doin' their due?
If the Local Wayjadeen doesn't know his hiney from a steering wheel, buckle up for a bumpy meeting, he's fighting unbelief. Guess whose?
Everything would be better if people would just believe. Believe. Why can't you just believe???
All anyone has to do to debunk the Believing Myth is look at that last 40 years of the Way. If that's where believing takes you - fuggeddaboudit.
Of course as you said Lone, it's not their fault. It's yours. And yours. And mine. We, in our unbelief, out believed the Big Believers. Which I guess makes us the Bigger Believers. Our believing out believed theirs. In the Believing Wars, we trounced them and we didn't even have to believe. We just had to not believe! Incredible - by getting rid of all the naysayers a void of such magnitude was created that what was left got engulfed by the sheer nothingness of our not being there!
Wow. This believing stuff - It's amazing!
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Lone Wolf McQuade
Hahahahahahahaha!!
Lone Wolf
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Bolshevik
Okay, here it goes. . .
I'm about to believe that twi never existed and we are all rich and happy and dancing with Jesus. . ONE . . TWO . . THREE!!
errrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. . .. errrrrrrr.....rrrrrrr . .. . . . . .. . rrrr. . . . . .. . . . uh.
Did it work?
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George Aar
"I'm still fuzzy as to the distinction between twi's believing and true Christian faith, if there is one. Please don't stop this thread."
TWI's "believing" was a superstitious tenet based - primarily - on bogus '50s vintage pop-psychology.
"True Christian faith" is based on ancient, more widely accepted superstition...
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Bolshevik
more please
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George Aar
Well, actually I was hoping to just make a smarta$$ remark and let it go at that.
But, if you insist,
Wierwille, like Norman Vincent Peale, and Og Mandino and a whole host of other variously-talented salesmen and hucksters drew a great deal of their dogma from the common logic of the fringe psycho-babble crowd of the day. Jung and some other big-name Shrinks (whose names escape me at the moment0 were real big on the "power" of thinking this or that, with all sorts of mystical overtones. Wierwille - as was his norm - was plowing fields someone else had already tilled with his magical solution to all of life's problems - BELIEVE! He just gave the psychobabble a bit more of a religious tone.
While in the more traditional Christian church, we're taught that God will answer our prayers if we just do it "right". What that "right" way is, tends to be a very mobile target though. And all the basic tenets of the faith - the virgin birth, God's offspring living amongst men, the sinless perfect man, the human sacrifice - all of that - have been around since the dawn of time in numerous cultures, describing a whole plethora of different gods and religious beliefs. And - even though we have virtually no evidence that anything The Bible says is true or "God's Word", we still zealously adhere to it as if there couldn't be any doubt as to it's veracity. When, in actuality, when it comes to real proof, we got nuttin'...
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Bolshevik
Well, Faith does seem to hit a deeper level than Believing.
Faith (from what I've gathered thus far) is more about a relationship.
Believing is about power. (hence, the class titles)
Which do you choose?
George Aar,
I guess you're saying that both can be used to manipulate? That is interesting.
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Bolshevik
but I would like to think that faith, done properly, is between a person and the almighty, thereby bypassing the influence of others.
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