First, using Biblical evidence only, can you demonstrate that salvation is the same thing as the new birth (regeneration?)
Second, think about the tense used in the statements that so many use toward the salvation of believers:
Rom 10:9 says (KJV): if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 5:10 says (KJV): much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Acts 2:21 (KJV): And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Both of the above verses put the actual event of salvation in the future. (Thou shalt be saved...we shall be saved)
All in the future tense.
Is salvation an event that has happened in the past (Biblical proof, please) or is something that will happen in the future (see prooftexts, above).
i think Mark makes a good point by with the distinction between salvation and "born again"
...and as it pertains to the all-too common notion of being "born again"...something that really seems to challenge the common doctrine, is how, in Peter's Epistle, the greek is speaking not of a new birth, but of a new conception
so i wonder if perhaps if after the new spiritual conception (perhaps by way of a new conceptualization...new perspective)
the process of salvation is a gestation period (of becoming whole), that results in a new kind of birth/death
which, of course, is merely the beginning of something much greater
perhaps spiritual conception occurs after a moment of bliss
while salvation (development as a whole being) is a long road of many trials and transformations
and any birth that follows both of these is typically a screaming bloody mess
perhaps one can see where mistaking conception for birth produces many overestimations of one's actual stage of spiritual development, resulting in gross blunders of epic proportions (lets say, should an emperor or king make such a mistake, and claim to be spiritual born again, when perhaps they have not even been spiritually conceived)
reminds me of an excited and desperate sperm mistaking its orgasmic arrival for being born as a fully developed child
...doh!
...
and too, whether or not we have eternal life may have nothing at all to do with conception, salvation or birth
some say that we are pretty much doomed to live forever in one form or another
and simply having a spiritual nature is not the same as our conceiving of it, nor development and birth of our living into it
yes Mark make a good point by with the distinction between salvation and "born again"
yes I like conception -v- being "born again"
I like that ideal "gestation period (of becoming whole), that results in a new kind of birth/death"
great picture you painted here my friend "reminds me of an excited and desperate sperm mistaking its orgasmic arrival for being born as a fully developed child"
yes maybe its more than we can understand
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved markomalley
God loves you my dear friend
I been thinking more about the differ between between salvation and "born again" and adding being planted or have been conception
maybe all three are differ stages we deal with until all is complete
In Ephesians 2:8 we read "For we are saved by grace, through faith...". In the greek the word "are saved" is in the past tense. Thus, this verse SHOULD read "were saved" or "am saved (past tense)".
Hebrews says that God has "perfected (past tense) forever those who are being sanctified (present tense salvation)".
Our salvation comes in three tenses: Past, Present, and Future.
Christians have been saved.
Christians are currently being saved.
Christians will be saved.
Some will even break this down further (I'm only 80% sure):
The dead (disconnected from God) spirit of man is what is saved (past tense).
The soul of man is what is saved (present tense).
The body of man is what will be saved (future tense).
I am not sure about which tense the new birth is referring to... but I tend to think that the new birth refers to the whole process also. We are not just our body, our soul, OR our spirit of man. We are all three together and all three aspects of our being need to be redeemed (born again).
As far as eternal security, refer to the verse from Hebrews that I quote above.
As in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor. 15: 22 All mankind is made alive in Christ, and become new creatures. (2 Cor. 5: 17)
Everyone will confess Jesus is Lord.
Unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear, surely shall say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength. Isa. 45: 24.
The first requirement of Rom.10:9
All will believe that Christ was raised from the dead.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12: 32.
I been thinking more about the differ between between salvation and "born again" and adding being planted or have been conception
maybe all three are differ stages we deal with until all is complete
I'm just wondering if you look at the seed as having been planted, but not yet germinated, how could there be any fruit? Fruit is evident now, so there must be a plant now also.
This discussion is good. So many things I just take for granted and never really checked it out. You've promted me to study this topic. Sonofarthur made some good points and so did dirtydzn. Dirty, you wouldn't be a former 12th corps would ya? Vegan, to check out the universal salvation idea I stumpled on that topic on truth or tradition. I too was drawn to that thought, I'm not convinced it's right on but I'm not discounting it. I'ld need to look at it more.
I believe there is fruith of joy to the mother and father when the child is in the womb
so I think its a differ kind of fruit
Galations 5 lists the fruit of the spirit. They are for the believer, not the parents.They follow the works of the flesh which are done by the individual. They are not something only availabe in the future. A seed cannot produce fruit. A plant that is germinated but not sprouted or a fetus that is still developing, but not yet born,are headed towards a future event. Being born is present or past tense, not future tense.
1 Peter1;23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
If the seed is incorruptible, does it produce a being or plant that is also incorruptible? Our bodies and souls are already corrupted, but the spirit cannot be. This is where we bear fruit, in the spirit, but is the fruit evident in our corrupt flesh, or must we wait to be changed before it is manifest? Redemption of the purchased possesion. Can a man's flesh become so corrupted that the incorruptible spirit cannot transform it at the end?
So If one is born Again at the onset of Ro:10,9, then one would think that God set a pattern of Grace so one thru discipline can grow up(so to speak) in the knowledge of the Lord and of the word, so we can Walk in the New Man and being able to produce those things of the Spirit..I tend to get over whelmed at times discerning the 9 manis, are they necessary (according to many classes-TWI) to have to be a more mature one..WHAT ARE THE GREATER WORKS? THAT WE CAN DO? sorry, Im not yelling..just emphasing..JC healed..that's huge!! Are manifestations works of the flesh or Spirit..
Hope Im not derailing..maybe , taking this one step further..
I aggree, that the saved is yesterday, today and forever.
I want to add a little tidbit I heard in fellowship once, back in 98 or so. A Nurse taught on receiving Holy Spirit, the minute you get born again..she relayed that the word Pheuma has a direct correlation to the first breath taken in by a new born during delivery. She equated getting born again and the actual birthing process of delivery. She said, that there is just enough PSI involved as the baby travels down the birth canal that causes the influx of air to start the baby's heart and pulmonary functions..this word is Latin as is derived from the greek word neuma)(sp)...very interesting..
I want to add a little tidbit I heard in fellowship once, back in 98 or so. A Nurse taught on receiving Holy Spirit, the minute you get born again..she relayed that the word Pheuma has a direct correlation to the first breath taken in by a new born during delivery. She equated getting born again and the actual birthing process of delivery. She said, that there is just enough PSI involved as the baby travels down the birth canal that causes the influx of air to start the baby's heart and pulmonary functions..this word is Latin as is derived from the greek word neuma)(sp)...very interesting..
Isn't the heart beating already in the first trimester?
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markomalley
Roy...
Good question that you pose.
A couple of things I'd check into:
First, using Biblical evidence only, can you demonstrate that salvation is the same thing as the new birth (regeneration?)
Second, think about the tense used in the statements that so many use toward the salvation of believers:
Rom 10:9 says (KJV): if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 5:10 says (KJV): much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Acts 2:21 (KJV): And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Both of the above verses put the actual event of salvation in the future. (Thou shalt be saved...we shall be saved)
All in the future tense.
Is salvation an event that has happened in the past (Biblical proof, please) or is something that will happen in the future (see prooftexts, above).
Just something to consider on the subject...
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cman
being made whole has a lot going on to it
passing from death to life would require dieing
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year2027
God first
Beloved markomalley
God loves you my dear friend
yes the being saved is future tense as far as I can see
but we read shall be saved not may be saved
so I say it takes a life time to be completed reconciled and a life time of calling
but these is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved cman
God loves you my dear friend
yes passing from death to life would require dieing with the right heart
some will pass from death to life and be born dead or at least that what I see even some that spoke in tongues
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cman
sorry, year, but i don't think there will be any born dead
though i do enjoy your insights on quite a few things
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sirguessalot
i think Mark makes a good point by with the distinction between salvation and "born again"
...and as it pertains to the all-too common notion of being "born again"...something that really seems to challenge the common doctrine, is how, in Peter's Epistle, the greek is speaking not of a new birth, but of a new conception
so i wonder if perhaps if after the new spiritual conception (perhaps by way of a new conceptualization...new perspective)
the process of salvation is a gestation period (of becoming whole), that results in a new kind of birth/death
which, of course, is merely the beginning of something much greater
perhaps spiritual conception occurs after a moment of bliss
while salvation (development as a whole being) is a long road of many trials and transformations
and any birth that follows both of these is typically a screaming bloody mess
perhaps one can see where mistaking conception for birth produces many overestimations of one's actual stage of spiritual development, resulting in gross blunders of epic proportions (lets say, should an emperor or king make such a mistake, and claim to be spiritual born again, when perhaps they have not even been spiritually conceived)
reminds me of an excited and desperate sperm mistaking its orgasmic arrival for being born as a fully developed child
...doh!
...
and too, whether or not we have eternal life may have nothing at all to do with conception, salvation or birth
some say that we are pretty much doomed to live forever in one form or another
and simply having a spiritual nature is not the same as our conceiving of it, nor development and birth of our living into it
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year2027
God first
Beloved cman
God loves you my dear friend
I hope you are right my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Todd or sirguessalot
God loves us my dear friend
yes Mark make a good point by with the distinction between salvation and "born again"
yes I like conception -v- being "born again"
I like that ideal "gestation period (of becoming whole), that results in a new kind of birth/death"
great picture you painted here my friend "reminds me of an excited and desperate sperm mistaking its orgasmic arrival for being born as a fully developed child"
yes maybe its more than we can understand
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved markomalley
God loves you my dear friend
I been thinking more about the differ between between salvation and "born again" and adding being planted or have been conception
maybe all three are differ stages we deal with until all is complete
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sonofarthur
In Ephesians 2:8 we read "For we are saved by grace, through faith...". In the greek the word "are saved" is in the past tense. Thus, this verse SHOULD read "were saved" or "am saved (past tense)".
Hebrews says that God has "perfected (past tense) forever those who are being sanctified (present tense salvation)".
Our salvation comes in three tenses: Past, Present, and Future.
Christians have been saved.
Christians are currently being saved.
Christians will be saved.
Some will even break this down further (I'm only 80% sure):
The dead (disconnected from God) spirit of man is what is saved (past tense).
The soul of man is what is saved (present tense).
The body of man is what will be saved (future tense).
I am not sure about which tense the new birth is referring to... but I tend to think that the new birth refers to the whole process also. We are not just our body, our soul, OR our spirit of man. We are all three together and all three aspects of our being need to be redeemed (born again).
As far as eternal security, refer to the verse from Hebrews that I quote above.
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year2027
God first
Beloved sonofarthur
God loves us my dear friend
at times I think all three "Past, Present, and Future" Future has happen, the Past will happen, and the Present is coming still or something like that
and yes saved is in the past tense
maybe you have something when you said "The dead (disconnected from God) spirit of man is what is saved (past tense)."
but has for the soul and the body I do not think flesh will changed to be saved but I believe all things will become new
new body (future tense)
new life kind in spiritual blood (present tense)
but this me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sonofarthur
What makes you think that the word "flesh" refers to the soul (or to the body for that matter)?
It might refer to the body, but I am pretty sure it is not referring to the soul.
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year2027
God first
Beloved sonofarthur
God loves you my dear friend
yes there is a spirit soul and spirit body too
why you said soul of man and body of man I got to think that
but if you said the life of the spirit which the soul of the spirit
or if you said the new body of the spirit which the body of the spirit
I may of understood better -- sorry
what these two will be like I do not know
some times we will miss understand one another sorry
personally I see when we put on the new body with the new kind of life one of light it will be in the form God is now
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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VeganXTC
Can I add universal salvation into the mix?
As in Adam all die even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Cor. 15: 22 All mankind is made alive in Christ, and become new creatures. (2 Cor. 5: 17)
Everyone will confess Jesus is Lord.
Unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear, surely shall say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength. Isa. 45: 24.
The first requirement of Rom.10:9
All will believe that Christ was raised from the dead.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12: 32.
The second and last requirement of Rom. 10:9
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year2027
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Beloved VeganXTC
God loves us my dear friend
yes you can add anything I like to think on things like "universal salvation"
those verses will add to cman saying no one will be born dead spiritually
I hope he is right
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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year2027
God first
Beloved Jerry
God loves you my dear friend
I see the seed more like the seed in a woman its begin its growth but it has not been born yet
or if you think of a plant seed it has not broke out of the shell yet
I believe there is fruith of joy to the mother and father when the child is in the womb
so I think its a differ kind of fruit
one that comes because the seed is growing
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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cacoon chuckers
This discussion is good. So many things I just take for granted and never really checked it out. You've promted me to study this topic. Sonofarthur made some good points and so did dirtydzn. Dirty, you wouldn't be a former 12th corps would ya? Vegan, to check out the universal salvation idea I stumpled on that topic on truth or tradition. I too was drawn to that thought, I'm not convinced it's right on but I'm not discounting it. I'ld need to look at it more.
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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year2027
God first
Beloved cacoon chuckers
God loves you my friend
yes Sonofarthur, dirtydzn, and Vegan made great poits
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved Jerry
God loves us all my friend
if we have seed within us are we not the parent of that seed
yes it a child in a mother is fleshly fruit but we can understand one by the other
are we not still developing as we grow in truth
then there is
Matt 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
so we got changed our thinking
yes the seed grows a being like that is incorruptible or immortality, a god like being
Phil 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Christ is in the form of God and so will we be when born
its our image that changes from a two fold living image to a three fold living image
words are used to try to help us see what God and Christ are doing by giving us the gift of holy spirit but they can not even get close
with God all things have happen, all things are happening, and all things will happen
time means nothing to God
but to use we live one day at a time with limited understanding of what has come, of what is comeing, of what is here and now
but God see's all and understands all as we will one day
a man seed of spirit either grows to the points it breaks out of the seed or its dies in the shell
a man flesh to me is just the shell
but this is just me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sonofarthur
year2027,
good point!!
Often the Bible is written from God's perspective, and He sees us from the perspective of what we will ultimately be.
Thus, God doesn't delineate for us in flashing yellow lights the different tenses of salvation.
Often our confusion is the result of the fact that we are trapped in the flow of time trying to comprehend timeless truth.
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likeaneagle
So If one is born Again at the onset of Ro:10,9, then one would think that God set a pattern of Grace so one thru discipline can grow up(so to speak) in the knowledge of the Lord and of the word, so we can Walk in the New Man and being able to produce those things of the Spirit..I tend to get over whelmed at times discerning the 9 manis, are they necessary (according to many classes-TWI) to have to be a more mature one..WHAT ARE THE GREATER WORKS? THAT WE CAN DO? sorry, Im not yelling..just emphasing..JC healed..that's huge!! Are manifestations works of the flesh or Spirit..
Hope Im not derailing..maybe , taking this one step further..
I aggree, that the saved is yesterday, today and forever.
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year2027
God first
Beloved sonofarthur
God loves us all my friend
yes the "perspective of what we will ultimately be"
yes "Often our confusion is the result of the fact that we are trapped in the flow of time trying to comprehend timeless truth."
great statements of truth my friend
I glad you enjoy the point I try to make and I am blesssed you saw it good thanks
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Beloved likeaneagle
God loves you my friend
do not worry about derailing but talk about what comes to mind my friend
and yes lets take it a step forward
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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likeaneagle
Hope this doesn't get confusing.
I want to add a little tidbit I heard in fellowship once, back in 98 or so. A Nurse taught on receiving Holy Spirit, the minute you get born again..she relayed that the word Pheuma has a direct correlation to the first breath taken in by a new born during delivery. She equated getting born again and the actual birthing process of delivery. She said, that there is just enough PSI involved as the baby travels down the birth canal that causes the influx of air to start the baby's heart and pulmonary functions..this word is Latin as is derived from the greek word neuma)(sp)...very interesting..
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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cacoon chuckers
Vines gives a pretty thorough definition of salvation and saved. There are basically eight different ways as to how these words are used.
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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