Ex Cathedra (from the Bishop's chair) may your statements be ever infallible.
Suz - I have not pursued ordination kind of put off by the fact that even the Church of England doesn't like ordaining homosexuals. The new Archbishop of Canterbury (Rowan Williams) is pretty gay friendly but there is a lot of ignorance and homophobia out there in the Anglican Church still. He is a good, thoughtful and refelctive man whose spirituality knocks the spots of VPW or LCM. I have not read nor indeed heard of the book you refer to (Absolute Truths by Susan Howatch) - what is special about it?
Vickles to be accurate (well that word was used a lot in the Way lol) it's across the Ocean not the sea! :P--> But I'm glad if has given a fresh and different prospective to experiences in the USA.
Lindyhopper - yes there was a lot of hate, but in many individuals a lot of love too. Makes me feel old when I saw your DOB! The years have had their ups and downs but at least I have not had to throw money and effort into the Way nor submit to the self-important and maniac pretensions of its leaders that I did when I was "In".
It was healing to get this stuff of my chest and to find others who have been through it and share common experiences and to be able to share.
Good post. Thanks for documenting your experience. I'm sure many people will be influenced by this even those who have long
departed the way.
One thing you said..
Trefor said:
I had kept Bristol running for two years without any leadership help and gone to every class/seminar I could apart from the Advanced Class, and yet had been ?demoted? without any explanation or consultation.
>>
Man I can relate. In 76 my area was a hotbed of
activity which was largely the result of people
in my Limb having been friends prior to joining TWI. So it was easy and almost effortless to
get people to take the class because it was bein
g recommended by people who had been childhood friends. Anyway - after we had had run like 3 classes in rapid succession with no less than 20 students each , HQ sent down some "professional believers" who were there to tell us "how to coordinate and lead".
But basically they killed the whole scene - Its like "thanks but we are here now so we'll be leading classses and planning activities - if you want to help then perhaps you can cook for visting leadership or help them get moved in".
It was like a light switch that had been turned out - people felt devalued and alientated by
these cold, arrogant people who were supposedly "salted men of god".
Twig attendance dwindled as did class enrollment. Of course to top it off , the visiting HQ leaders blamed it on us local believers - said we were smoking
marijuana and had allowed the adversary to tear
down the momentum. It was all manufactured and
bogus and we knew it. It was the local
believers who had built it all up - we did it locally with the WOWs in that area - hell we TOOK them witnessing - they got off easy. but the "pros" from HQ completely alienated everyone. The area never again experienced
Thanks for the contribution diazbro and for your kind comments about my story.
Yes the tendency to try and take over and control was quite common - they tried to fix what wasn't broken in the first place. One of the great things about local Twigs was the closeness and informality of the members, they shared and fellowshipped and nobody tried to be better than someone else. As a Twig leader I was happy to get others to teach and to lead meetings and use their own talents and abilities. We did not need outside people to be imposed upon us purely on the basis that they were Corps or, even worse, "Reverends". My experience of Way Reverends was that they thought themselves a race apart for whom respect and obedience should be automatic no matter what chaos they might actually cause. Far from increasing people's interest it put them off and was definitely disheartening for those of us who were genuine activists.
And yes it was never their fault - people were not meekly and obediently following their leaders in the Word, not living it or moving it enough etc. One Reverend sat through sessions of the Intermediate Class in Bristol smoking, he considered it a privilege he had earned and was a good example of discipline for the rest of us who had to wait (gasping lol) for the break. I have already covered that he wanted to know how we stored our underwear and socks! Small wonder that people contrasted such behaviour with what they were used to!
I got out before Martindale went crazy so am only able to talk about the time when VPW was in charge or at least whilst he was still alive and I guess those who experienced "Way II" had a harder time of it.
But the call for leadership was always there and who wouldn't want to do their best to attain that - how great would be the rewards at the bema for doing so? !
I am hoping to find out news, as time goes by, of those whom I knew, especially those who did go into the Corps, I have already had a couple of leads. But we all have our stories to tell, our experiences to share. The Way affected us in different ways and we are dealing with that in different ways and these forums are certainly a great way of speaking our minds and hearts. Perhaps my theology and your psychology helped us to see things as they were a little sooner than others but we can all contribute to each other's recovery and if in my own small way I can do that then all well and good! :D-->
Your story was interesting and very well written. I usually have to print the long posts and read them later, but I could not stop reading yours.
TWI was a different experience for everybody. Some were hurt very badly by VPW, some were treated with kindness by him. VPW died before I got in, the year was 1986. I stayed for three years before I decided it was not for me.
You are right LCM was the worst. I remember him getting all frothy at the mouth and going on and on about homosexuals. I use to stand up and cheer with the rest of them. It seemed that his teachings became more and more about homos and less and less about being kind.
Years later I became friends with a homosexual man. He was one of the kindest people I have ever met. We talked about everything. I told him about my TWI days and what I use to believe. He just listened, never passed judgment. Now according to LCM doctrine, my friend is the evil one? That man threw logic right out the window.
Glad you are here. Hope you stick around for a bit.
Adios thanks so much for your kind words and your contribution.
Despite what I now know about VPW I was one of those who got nothing but kindness from him. I never really saw "the dark side of the force".
But with LCM I was starting to see that before I left. The one time I actually heard him set forth about homosexuality I cheered and clapped and laughed with the rest, I went along, I cannot go back and change that now.
I wonder how many people that clapped and cheered actually knew someone who was homosexual - by that I mean out as opposed to being "in the closet". It's always easy to attack an unknown bogeyman and to stereotype people.
You found that the stereotype was a myth. I knew it was but had not the strength at the time, nor I guess the conviction. I have both now! :)-->
I never took the advanced class - I was intending to but when Robert Wilkinson blocked my Corps application I started to lose interest in rushing into it and then I gradually started to lose interest in a Way "career" as well.
The closest I got to Peebles was a retreat for Anglican students when I was at university held in Walkerburn not too far away.
First of all let me give you a belated welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe. I read your story and I was very blessed. You wrote honestly and dispassionately about your experiences. What I found most disarming was your willingness to discuss your private feelings and emotions. I think you have the blood of a Welsh bard running in your veins.
The part of your story that really brought back fond memories to me was when you spoke of the UK Believers. I was in England and Scotland in 1986 and I had met some of the people that you mentioned. I recalled how many of the Believers treated me with great kindness and went out of their way to be hospitable. I especially remember the twig in Edinburgh. When I came back to the States I continued to write to a number of people. Chris Kent asked me to join him to help take care of Muller's grave site in Bristol. I did not, but when I read your story I wish I had accompanied him. Who knows, maybe I might even have met you there.
Many thanks for you kind comments about my story! May I congratulate you upon your edition of the Bible! :)-->)
Alas not Welsh except by residence and name. I lived in Macclesfield not too far from the Kent family and only moving around has brought me to the "Land of my Father's" (Gwlad fy'n Hadau).
But George Muller is still inspiring. When I was a Twig leader in Bristol one of the ladies who came had been raised in the Muller Homes and there was a celebration of his life held there for those who had been raised in the home and I attended it. Looking after the grave was easy after you managed to find it and got rid of the undergrowth which has surrounded it for God knows how long.
I hope it is still being cared for but I don't know. Will have to take a trip to Bristol and check it out.
A tale taught, and a taut tale, each well told. Nice work.
I can try not to imagine the volleys of filth to erupt from the gaping piehole of "Reverend" Martindale upon reading himself being "spiritually" emasculated so handily by a..., you know, a "homo." Suffice it to say, out of the abundance of the heart, the piehole volleyeth.
The only relevance of your sexuality here, as I see it, is to give the lie to The Way's depraved piety, as its blindness to your own humanity. You're a lot more of a real "man" than Martindale could ever be. He's still working on being human.
As for VPW's nobler motives in the Way's "Wonder Years," I think they were convenient pretexts born of opportunism in the fertile mind of a wolf wearing wool. "Wierwool." Their form, sum and substance (as scripture) did take root in the pure hearts of young (and not so young) followers, and those were responsible for anything good coming out of New Knazerethville. Wierwille's occasional shows of modesty, which you pointed to, like his made-for-TV shows of compassion, were self-gratifying indulgences and of course, theater.
I don't know if you are aware that Martindale did not invent spitting on the homos as a teaching tool. VPW, as in all things Way, led the Way.
Pity you don't care for Reagan. As perceptive as you can be, you've got his crowd all wrong. Federalists, for lack of a better label, may seem to lean right, but they are tilting neither left nor right. They are simply "upright." :)--> But that's another, and long lost topic.
"I can try not to imagine the volleys of filth to erupt from the gaping piehole of "Reverend" Martindale upon reading himself being "spiritually" emasculated so handily by a..., you know, a "homo." Suffice it to say, out of the abundance of the heart, the piehole volleyeth."
I like to think that there is someone in TWI that reads these forums, especially as their own website it so crassly boring. To find out what we "outies" actually think and say. To show them how they were, and are, engaged in mind games on such issues and not dealing with spiritual actualities.
"The only relevance of your sexuality here, as I see it, is to give the lie to The Way's depraved piety, as its blindness to your own humanity. You're a lot more of a real "man" than Martindale could ever be. He's still working on being human."
Thanks for those kind words. Humanity is something wider and more varied than the narrow thought processes of TWI allowed. It tried to squeeze humanity into its own definition. I certainly know how to treat a lady!
As to Regan, I am not aware that I made any comment further than why VPW managed to get an invite to his Inaugural.
I was not aware that VPW had invented a spitting technique and passed it on, that was an illuminating comment.
Humanity is the thing, Trefor. Every dogma seeks in one way or another to mold it into the craven image of a slave. Humanity is too much for them. They might call it the "natural man," and they fear it, but they realize they need it too. So they seek to confine it, enslave it. That may be why slaves are held in such high esteem by the great religions. It's propaganda. "Mind control." We are universally exhorted by their holynesses to aspire to become slaves of Truth, for only as slaves can we become "free." We'll believe just about anything, won't we?
As for the Reagan point, there was no directly critical comment, yet you included the Argentinian junta, neo-Nazism, Hitler, and even Pat Robertson (for whom you have no time) in the same paragraph. Random coincidence? Very likely. But on the off chance I was correct, I thought I'd put in a good word for the Gipper's character.
Hey Trefor thank you so much for sharing and it touched me deeply. Thanks again for that wonderful perspective from your corner of the world ! I knew someome that was a wow in the UK and what she shared on her experience and yours too really was enlightening to me on the Way of GB. Thanks again !
Just to add to this thread, I am Dave, brother of Bob, that Trefor had mentioned in the opening post. I was able to locate Trefor thru this forum, and he, Bob and myself were able to meet up in Bristol last week. It was a time of healing for all of us. I had not forgiven myself for going along with the herd and condemning gay people for being who they are, and had often wondered how Tref was doing. Bob had managed to come to terms with the way that he had behaved in relation to gay people, and we had a wonderful time, swapping stories and we have been staying in contact.
Now, if only I could find my dear friend, Helen Hodges, who I knew in Bristol, the circle will be complete......
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excathedra
i really want to thank you for your heartfelt bio, tref
thank you thank you thank you
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excathedra
dear paw, this bio section should be AT LEASTabove the corps thread
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suz
Thanks also from me,
amazing reading this history from UK point of view. I only knew it from the USA view. Many similarities took place in both countries!!
many outcomes also.
Thanks for your honesty also.
Suz
PS is it still available for you to be ordained in the Church there??
Have you read Absolute Truth's by Susan Howatch??
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vickles
wow Tref, thankyou so much for your honesty and heart. I appreciate your sharing and it was interesting to read your standpoint from across the sea.
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lindyhopper
THanks for sharing some of your experiences and views.
TWI has so much hate it is frightening.
I hope the past twenty years have been much better for you.
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that shwing.
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Trefor Heywood
Many thanks for te kind comments so far! :D-->
Ex Cathedra (from the Bishop's chair) may your statements be ever infallible.
Suz - I have not pursued ordination kind of put off by the fact that even the Church of England doesn't like ordaining homosexuals. The new Archbishop of Canterbury (Rowan Williams) is pretty gay friendly but there is a lot of ignorance and homophobia out there in the Anglican Church still. He is a good, thoughtful and refelctive man whose spirituality knocks the spots of VPW or LCM. I have not read nor indeed heard of the book you refer to (Absolute Truths by Susan Howatch) - what is special about it?
Vickles to be accurate (well that word was used a lot in the Way lol) it's across the Ocean not the sea! :P--> But I'm glad if has given a fresh and different prospective to experiences in the USA.
Lindyhopper - yes there was a lot of hate, but in many individuals a lot of love too. Makes me feel old when I saw your DOB! The years have had their ups and downs but at least I have not had to throw money and effort into the Way nor submit to the self-important and maniac pretensions of its leaders that I did when I was "In".
It was healing to get this stuff of my chest and to find others who have been through it and share common experiences and to be able to share.
Trefor Heywood
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diazbro
Good post. Thanks for documenting your experience. I'm sure many people will be influenced by this even those who have long
departed the way.
One thing you said..
Trefor said:
I had kept Bristol running for two years without any leadership help and gone to every class/seminar I could apart from the Advanced Class, and yet had been ?demoted? without any explanation or consultation.
>>
Man I can relate. In 76 my area was a hotbed of
activity which was largely the result of people
in my Limb having been friends prior to joining TWI. So it was easy and almost effortless to
get people to take the class because it was bein
g recommended by people who had been childhood friends. Anyway - after we had had run like 3 classes in rapid succession with no less than 20 students each , HQ sent down some "professional believers" who were there to tell us "how to coordinate and lead".
But basically they killed the whole scene - Its like "thanks but we are here now so we'll be leading classses and planning activities - if you want to help then perhaps you can cook for visting leadership or help them get moved in".
It was like a light switch that had been turned out - people felt devalued and alientated by
these cold, arrogant people who were supposedly "salted men of god".
Twig attendance dwindled as did class enrollment. Of course to top it off , the visiting HQ leaders blamed it on us local believers - said we were smoking
marijuana and had allowed the adversary to tear
down the momentum. It was all manufactured and
bogus and we knew it. It was the local
believers who had built it all up - we did it locally with the WOWs in that area - hell we TOOK them witnessing - they got off easy. but the "pros" from HQ completely alienated everyone. The area never again experienced
a significant level of new class takers at least
until my departure around 85. Of course general
Way membership had started to decline by then
also.
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suz
The book Absolute Truths' is about The Church of England. Silly me thought it was refering to the Catholic Church,,,,,
but its also about a Bishop in the church, whose life gets completely turned around, and he has to re-examine his whole belief system!
Quite properly writtenin your formal English language also.
Just an amazing book, full of wisdom.
D-- I hear ya man, same' o'l story in many places with "unqualified" people running area's. Sure glad they sent in the troops to clean things up!
Suz :D-->
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Trefor Heywood
Thanks for the contribution diazbro and for your kind comments about my story.
Yes the tendency to try and take over and control was quite common - they tried to fix what wasn't broken in the first place. One of the great things about local Twigs was the closeness and informality of the members, they shared and fellowshipped and nobody tried to be better than someone else. As a Twig leader I was happy to get others to teach and to lead meetings and use their own talents and abilities. We did not need outside people to be imposed upon us purely on the basis that they were Corps or, even worse, "Reverends". My experience of Way Reverends was that they thought themselves a race apart for whom respect and obedience should be automatic no matter what chaos they might actually cause. Far from increasing people's interest it put them off and was definitely disheartening for those of us who were genuine activists.
And yes it was never their fault - people were not meekly and obediently following their leaders in the Word, not living it or moving it enough etc. One Reverend sat through sessions of the Intermediate Class in Bristol smoking, he considered it a privilege he had earned and was a good example of discipline for the rest of us who had to wait (gasping lol) for the break. I have already covered that he wanted to know how we stored our underwear and socks! Small wonder that people contrasted such behaviour with what they were used to!
Trefor Heywood
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Trefor Heywood
Thanks so much for your contribution Ginger Tea!
I got out before Martindale went crazy so am only able to talk about the time when VPW was in charge or at least whilst he was still alive and I guess those who experienced "Way II" had a harder time of it.
But the call for leadership was always there and who wouldn't want to do their best to attain that - how great would be the rewards at the bema for doing so? !
I am hoping to find out news, as time goes by, of those whom I knew, especially those who did go into the Corps, I have already had a couple of leads. But we all have our stories to tell, our experiences to share. The Way affected us in different ways and we are dealing with that in different ways and these forums are certainly a great way of speaking our minds and hearts. Perhaps my theology and your psychology helped us to see things as they were a little sooner than others but we can all contribute to each other's recovery and if in my own small way I can do that then all well and good! :D-->
Betcha have some great times on that coast!
Trefor Heywood
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AdiosMiCorazon
Hello and welcome!
Your story was interesting and very well written. I usually have to print the long posts and read them later, but I could not stop reading yours.
TWI was a different experience for everybody. Some were hurt very badly by VPW, some were treated with kindness by him. VPW died before I got in, the year was 1986. I stayed for three years before I decided it was not for me.
You are right LCM was the worst. I remember him getting all frothy at the mouth and going on and on about homosexuals. I use to stand up and cheer with the rest of them. It seemed that his teachings became more and more about homos and less and less about being kind.
Years later I became friends with a homosexual man. He was one of the kindest people I have ever met. We talked about everything. I told him about my TWI days and what I use to believe. He just listened, never passed judgment. Now according to LCM doctrine, my friend is the evil one? That man threw logic right out the window.
Glad you are here. Hope you stick around for a bit.
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Trefor Heywood
Adios thanks so much for your kind words and your contribution.
Despite what I now know about VPW I was one of those who got nothing but kindness from him. I never really saw "the dark side of the force".
But with LCM I was starting to see that before I left. The one time I actually heard him set forth about homosexuality I cheered and clapped and laughed with the rest, I went along, I cannot go back and change that now.
I wonder how many people that clapped and cheered actually knew someone who was homosexual - by that I mean out as opposed to being "in the closet". It's always easy to attack an unknown bogeyman and to stereotype people.
You found that the stereotype was a myth. I knew it was but had not the strength at the time, nor I guess the conviction. I have both now! :)-->
Trefor Heywood
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Sudo
Trefor,
You weren't at the Advanced class held in Peebles Scotland at the Hotel Hydro in 1981 by any chance? I was the lone American new student there.
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Trefor Heywood
No Sudo I wasn't.
I never took the advanced class - I was intending to but when Robert Wilkinson blocked my Corps application I started to lose interest in rushing into it and then I gradually started to lose interest in a Way "career" as well.
The closest I got to Peebles was a retreat for Anglican students when I was at university held in Walkerburn not too far away.
Trefor Heywood
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E. W. Bullinger
Dear Trefor:
First of all let me give you a belated welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe. I read your story and I was very blessed. You wrote honestly and dispassionately about your experiences. What I found most disarming was your willingness to discuss your private feelings and emotions. I think you have the blood of a Welsh bard running in your veins.
The part of your story that really brought back fond memories to me was when you spoke of the UK Believers. I was in England and Scotland in 1986 and I had met some of the people that you mentioned. I recalled how many of the Believers treated me with great kindness and went out of their way to be hospitable. I especially remember the twig in Edinburgh. When I came back to the States I continued to write to a number of people. Chris Kent asked me to join him to help take care of Muller's grave site in Bristol. I did not, but when I read your story I wish I had accompanied him. Who knows, maybe I might even have met you there.
EWB
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Trefor Heywood
Dear EWB,
Many thanks for you kind comments about my story! May I congratulate you upon your edition of the Bible! :)-->)
Alas not Welsh except by residence and name. I lived in Macclesfield not too far from the Kent family and only moving around has brought me to the "Land of my Father's" (Gwlad fy'n Hadau).
But George Muller is still inspiring. When I was a Twig leader in Bristol one of the ladies who came had been raised in the Muller Homes and there was a celebration of his life held there for those who had been raised in the home and I attended it. Looking after the grave was easy after you managed to find it and got rid of the undergrowth which has surrounded it for God knows how long.
I hope it is still being cared for but I don't know. Will have to take a trip to Bristol and check it out.
Trefor Heywood
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satori001
Trefor,
A tale taught, and a taut tale, each well told. Nice work.
I can try not to imagine the volleys of filth to erupt from the gaping piehole of "Reverend" Martindale upon reading himself being "spiritually" emasculated so handily by a..., you know, a "homo." Suffice it to say, out of the abundance of the heart, the piehole volleyeth.
The only relevance of your sexuality here, as I see it, is to give the lie to The Way's depraved piety, as its blindness to your own humanity. You're a lot more of a real "man" than Martindale could ever be. He's still working on being human.
As for VPW's nobler motives in the Way's "Wonder Years," I think they were convenient pretexts born of opportunism in the fertile mind of a wolf wearing wool. "Wierwool." Their form, sum and substance (as scripture) did take root in the pure hearts of young (and not so young) followers, and those were responsible for anything good coming out of New Knazerethville. Wierwille's occasional shows of modesty, which you pointed to, like his made-for-TV shows of compassion, were self-gratifying indulgences and of course, theater.
I don't know if you are aware that Martindale did not invent spitting on the homos as a teaching tool. VPW, as in all things Way, led the Way.
Pity you don't care for Reagan. As perceptive as you can be, you've got his crowd all wrong. Federalists, for lack of a better label, may seem to lean right, but they are tilting neither left nor right. They are simply "upright." :)--> But that's another, and long lost topic.
Best of luck and happiness to you, and yours.
Regards...
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Trefor Heywood
satori001
"I can try not to imagine the volleys of filth to erupt from the gaping piehole of "Reverend" Martindale upon reading himself being "spiritually" emasculated so handily by a..., you know, a "homo." Suffice it to say, out of the abundance of the heart, the piehole volleyeth."
I like to think that there is someone in TWI that reads these forums, especially as their own website it so crassly boring. To find out what we "outies" actually think and say. To show them how they were, and are, engaged in mind games on such issues and not dealing with spiritual actualities.
"The only relevance of your sexuality here, as I see it, is to give the lie to The Way's depraved piety, as its blindness to your own humanity. You're a lot more of a real "man" than Martindale could ever be. He's still working on being human."
Thanks for those kind words. Humanity is something wider and more varied than the narrow thought processes of TWI allowed. It tried to squeeze humanity into its own definition. I certainly know how to treat a lady!
As to Regan, I am not aware that I made any comment further than why VPW managed to get an invite to his Inaugural.
I was not aware that VPW had invented a spitting technique and passed it on, that was an illuminating comment.
Best wishes to you and yours also.
Trefor Heywood
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satori001
Humanity is the thing, Trefor. Every dogma seeks in one way or another to mold it into the craven image of a slave. Humanity is too much for them. They might call it the "natural man," and they fear it, but they realize they need it too. So they seek to confine it, enslave it. That may be why slaves are held in such high esteem by the great religions. It's propaganda. "Mind control." We are universally exhorted by their holynesses to aspire to become slaves of Truth, for only as slaves can we become "free." We'll believe just about anything, won't we?
As for the Reagan point, there was no directly critical comment, yet you included the Argentinian junta, neo-Nazism, Hitler, and even Pat Robertson (for whom you have no time) in the same paragraph. Random coincidence? Very likely. But on the off chance I was correct, I thought I'd put in a good word for the Gipper's character.
Regards...
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Trefor Heywood
Yes it is all control sartori001. Basically the "natural man" was anything TWI didn't like - that is except when it came to when they wanted sex!
The link with the junta etc was unintentional. I have no political axe to grind with "the Gipper". It's sad he is now suffering from Alzheimers.
Trefor Heywood
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dougie73
Hey Trefor thank you so much for sharing and it touched me deeply. Thanks again for that wonderful perspective from your corner of the world ! I knew someome that was a wow in the UK and what she shared on her experience and yours too really was enlightening to me on the Way of GB. Thanks again !
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Trefor Heywood
Good grief - is it really a year since anyone posted anything on this thread?
Thanks for the kind comment dougie - wonder if I know the person who was a WOW here in the UK?
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kaptainkremen
Just to add to this thread, I am Dave, brother of Bob, that Trefor had mentioned in the opening post. I was able to locate Trefor thru this forum, and he, Bob and myself were able to meet up in Bristol last week. It was a time of healing for all of us. I had not forgiven myself for going along with the herd and condemning gay people for being who they are, and had often wondered how Tref was doing. Bob had managed to come to terms with the way that he had behaved in relation to gay people, and we had a wonderful time, swapping stories and we have been staying in contact.
Now, if only I could find my dear friend, Helen Hodges, who I knew in Bristol, the circle will be complete......
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