There has been alot of discussion on this over the years if you check through the archives.
IMO an offshoot is any group or leader that splintered out from the way tree.
CES, CFF, the Geer Group, The Finxxgan Group and a whole slew of others, some bigger than others and some tiny that I dont feel the necessity to keep up with. Greasespot is an offshoot in my mind as it wouldnt have existed without TWI being there first.
There are a few that took time off to reassess and rethink things after the TWI meltdown and after years have re entered the ministry with different training and different directives--They I wouldnt call offshoots, but the great majority jumped in with no serious reflection, other than crossing a few t's and dotting a few i's differently but carrying a good bulk if not beliefs then actions with them...
Sides is an offshoot having been ordained in TWI and although his beliefs may have changed somewhat from TWI, he still holds on to much of the same type of operational format ( classes, tapes, books, thinking himself to be 'more knowledgable' (hahaha) than regular churches, fundamentalist in approach, even using the term Doctor-- imo even though his rhetoric had changed he is a lot closer and ingrained in TWI patterns than he would like to think.
There are a lot, from some who want to still want to prove how important they are by providing the greatest revelation since the first century , to small 'twig like groups who have changed almost nothing in style teaching or format, and then there are the traveling circus show of leaders who all have tapes, classes, advances, retreats, camps, seminars, books, tshirts, bumperstickers, keyrings, and bookmarkers to hawk.
TWI1, 2, 3 refers to different growth stages and changes of TWI, That was originally a thread at Waydale, maybe someone can hunt it down and resurrect it for you..Its a good read
Has anyone made a list... call me crazy but a "family tree" would be extremely interesting and valuable for historical reasons don't you think?
Does being an offshoot mean that the leaders used to be leaders in TWI?
OR Does being an offshoot mean that you teach basically the same doctrines as TWI?
sonofarthur..........this "offshoot" issue is an intriguing one.
IMO......technically, TWI is an offshoot of B.G. Leonard's group. In 1953, wierwille went to Calgary, Alberta, Canada and sat thru B.G.'s foundational class in March and then, June/July. According to twi's book, Born Again to Serve by Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was thrilled with this knowledge. In less than three months later......vpw taught this class to his small congregation and others interested.
Also, twi was incorporated in 1953........and vpw had his stuff copyrighted real quick. B.G. Leonard found out about vpw running this "offshoot" class and was upset.
So, imo........twi is a splinter group, too. But, carry on.
If you define an offshoot the way mstar stated it - then there may be hundreds of them. Lots of people who decided to leave TWI continued having their own home fellowships. Many still do. They do their own thing, but still teach the basic tenets of TWI. Some even have PFAL tapes and run classes.
Then there are groups that are "together with but distinctly independent of" the major spin-off (remember pros?). The one here in Clearwater comes to mind. They're affiliated with the Geerites because they offer his class, but they're autonomous in every other aspect.
If you follow Mr. Hammeroni's point of view, then there are only a handful of really large offshoot/spin-off groups.
IMO - an offshoot is a group continues to support their "leadership" in the same manner as TWI. In other words, the guys who run the split off don't have realjobs and their followers give them money so they can "do the work of the Lord".
There are several that I have heard of, and some I don't know much about - but I'd venture to say there are about 20 of them - give or take a few.
IMO, many of these so-called leaders hadn't had jobs for years because of their TWI positions. I think some of them might have been intimidated about going out "into the world" to earn a living after splitting from TWI. So they just kept on doing what they knew how to do - teach the bible and ask for money. Only this time they weren't filling out blue forms and sending money orders to New Knoxville!
i think the idea of some sort of graphic tree representation of the TWi family would definitely be helpful, interesting, educational, groovy and all that
...but even more so, perhaps, would be to graft TWI into its even greater family tree in order to represent its siblings and parents and grandparents and whatnot
Additionalsplinter groups/off-shoots include the late John Hendricks organization Christian Research Fellowship of Marietta,GA/Destiny,FL with daughter Rochelle as president; Ken Petty of Oracle,AZ of Emmaus bible fellowship, Robert Lindelfelt of San Diego Bible Institute, and Mike Tomberlin of The Church in Hickory,NC(though Mike and Jane
are far more tolerant of other denominations than most are), and Peter Wade of Australia. While many are nice people, some individuals within their groups are not so open-minded. I hold no grudge against any of them, and wish them God's real and true blessings. I am sure that many like John Lynn, Kevin and Sara Gigou are warm and friendly and personal, but sometimes it takes years to get over the past and receive healing. I come to Greasespot Cafe as my cult addiction recovery group, and I have been out of TWI since late December 1979 and am still struggling to get my life back in order.
IMO - an offshoot is a group continues to support their "leadership" in the same manner as TWI. In other words, the guys who run the split off don't have realjobs and their followers give them money so they can "do the work of the Lord".
Hope, I think that's it..
Think of it. Those "ministers" may find it a rather tough time convincing the man on the street that they are "worthy" of their support..
so what to do?
Round up a bunch who left der vey, or were tossed out, and get them to circle the wagons around old way dogma.
That's all they know how to teach.. the only bible they know, for the most part.
Won't work in the real world.
I see them come here on occasion.. trying to net some of us up like unsuspecting fish, with a promise of "results" or an offer to return to the days when der vey was young and fresh as a spring chicken..
like JL's little exercise in prose, where he (practically) tearfully exhorts to get tapped into his root..
sheesh.
I do have some respect for those who are doing something other than microwaving up some of vics old dogma..
Tom Jenkins is in the DC area and runs a group there (Arlington, last I remember) ...at least last time I attended...went once a while back...never went back. :)
I am sure that many like John Lynn, Kevin and Sara Gigou are warm and friendly and personal, but sometimes it takes years to get over the past and receive healing. I come to Greasespot Cafe as my cult addiction recovery group, and I have been out of TWI since late December 1979 and am still struggling to get my life back in order.
TLB..........that sums up why there tends to be lots of discussion of those offshoot threads.
Fool me once, shame on you........fool me twice, shame on me.
Hoooray-Love the "Cult Addiction Recovery Group" thing.
Maybe that should be our new secret code name. I'm a CARG.
However we can't call greasespot an offshoot since it's not promoting any religious belief or doesn't solicit money. That's too much of a difference from "der veg".
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mstar1
There has been alot of discussion on this over the years if you check through the archives.
IMO an offshoot is any group or leader that splintered out from the way tree.
CES, CFF, the Geer Group, The Finxxgan Group and a whole slew of others, some bigger than others and some tiny that I dont feel the necessity to keep up with. Greasespot is an offshoot in my mind as it wouldnt have existed without TWI being there first.
There are a few that took time off to reassess and rethink things after the TWI meltdown and after years have re entered the ministry with different training and different directives--They I wouldnt call offshoots, but the great majority jumped in with no serious reflection, other than crossing a few t's and dotting a few i's differently but carrying a good bulk if not beliefs then actions with them...
Sides is an offshoot having been ordained in TWI and although his beliefs may have changed somewhat from TWI, he still holds on to much of the same type of operational format ( classes, tapes, books, thinking himself to be 'more knowledgable' (hahaha) than regular churches, fundamentalist in approach, even using the term Doctor-- imo even though his rhetoric had changed he is a lot closer and ingrained in TWI patterns than he would like to think.
There are a lot, from some who want to still want to prove how important they are by providing the greatest revelation since the first century , to small 'twig like groups who have changed almost nothing in style teaching or format, and then there are the traveling circus show of leaders who all have tapes, classes, advances, retreats, camps, seminars, books, tshirts, bumperstickers, keyrings, and bookmarkers to hawk.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TWI1, 2, 3 refers to different growth stages and changes of TWI, That was originally a thread at Waydale, maybe someone can hunt it down and resurrect it for you..Its a good read
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skyrider
sonofarthur..........this "offshoot" issue is an intriguing one.
IMO......technically, TWI is an offshoot of B.G. Leonard's group. In 1953, wierwille went to Calgary, Alberta, Canada and sat thru B.G.'s foundational class in March and then, June/July. According to twi's book, Born Again to Serve by Mrs. Wierwille, vpw was thrilled with this knowledge. In less than three months later......vpw taught this class to his small congregation and others interested.
Also, twi was incorporated in 1953........and vpw had his stuff copyrighted real quick. B.G. Leonard found out about vpw running this "offshoot" class and was upset.
So, imo........twi is a splinter group, too. But, carry on.
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Ham
I think an offshoot is more defined as a group that had a start with a significant number of ex-way people.
Otherwords, they didn't work day in and day out to amass their following, didn't start from scratch.
I think several of them are like a dysfunctional, ready made family..
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Belle
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Hope R.
You can look at it in a couple of ways.
If you define an offshoot the way mstar stated it - then there may be hundreds of them. Lots of people who decided to leave TWI continued having their own home fellowships. Many still do. They do their own thing, but still teach the basic tenets of TWI. Some even have PFAL tapes and run classes.
Then there are groups that are "together with but distinctly independent of" the major spin-off (remember pros?). The one here in Clearwater comes to mind. They're affiliated with the Geerites because they offer his class, but they're autonomous in every other aspect.
If you follow Mr. Hammeroni's point of view, then there are only a handful of really large offshoot/spin-off groups.
IMO - an offshoot is a group continues to support their "leadership" in the same manner as TWI. In other words, the guys who run the split off don't have realjobs and their followers give them money so they can "do the work of the Lord".
There are several that I have heard of, and some I don't know much about - but I'd venture to say there are about 20 of them - give or take a few.
IMO, many of these so-called leaders hadn't had jobs for years because of their TWI positions. I think some of them might have been intimidated about going out "into the world" to earn a living after splitting from TWI. So they just kept on doing what they knew how to do - teach the bible and ask for money. Only this time they weren't filling out blue forms and sending money orders to New Knoxville!
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sirguessalot
i think the idea of some sort of graphic tree representation of the TWi family would definitely be helpful, interesting, educational, groovy and all that
...but even more so, perhaps, would be to graft TWI into its even greater family tree in order to represent its siblings and parents and grandparents and whatnot
...fer sure an ambitious project, either way.
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GT
Of all the insults hurled at GreaseSpot, this has to be the worst!
Even after we went through all that work to get rid of the red drapes...
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coolchef
damn i keep forgetting to tell my wife to get rid of those things!
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tFloat
About two years after I left and was marked to avoid, I ran into an exway corps couple who were also m&a at that time.
I had dinner with them, and after the twi bashing talk ended, the conversation turned towards a spinoff group that sounded the same as twi to me.
That ended any desire for me to "fill the void". Good cathartic experience. Then I ran across Waydale, and all my doubts were confirmed.
harvey
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Additionalsplinter groups/off-shoots include the late John Hendricks organization Christian Research Fellowship of Marietta,GA/Destiny,FL with daughter Rochelle as president; Ken Petty of Oracle,AZ of Emmaus bible fellowship, Robert Lindelfelt of San Diego Bible Institute, and Mike Tomberlin of The Church in Hickory,NC(though Mike and Jane
are far more tolerant of other denominations than most are), and Peter Wade of Australia. While many are nice people, some individuals within their groups are not so open-minded. I hold no grudge against any of them, and wish them God's real and true blessings. I am sure that many like John Lynn, Kevin and Sara Gigou are warm and friendly and personal, but sometimes it takes years to get over the past and receive healing. I come to Greasespot Cafe as my cult addiction recovery group, and I have been out of TWI since late December 1979 and am still struggling to get my life back in order.
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Ham
Hope, I think that's it..
Think of it. Those "ministers" may find it a rather tough time convincing the man on the street that they are "worthy" of their support..
so what to do?
Round up a bunch who left der vey, or were tossed out, and get them to circle the wagons around old way dogma.
That's all they know how to teach.. the only bible they know, for the most part.
Won't work in the real world.
I see them come here on occasion.. trying to net some of us up like unsuspecting fish, with a promise of "results" or an offer to return to the days when der vey was young and fresh as a spring chicken..
like JL's little exercise in prose, where he (practically) tearfully exhorts to get tapped into his root..
sheesh.
I do have some respect for those who are doing something other than microwaving up some of vics old dogma..
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Ex_16th_MB
Tom Jenkins is in the DC area and runs a group there (Arlington, last I remember) ...at least last time I attended...went once a while back...never went back. :)
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skyrider
TLB..........that sums up why there tends to be lots of discussion of those offshoot threads.
Fool me once, shame on you........fool me twice, shame on me.
Thanks Paw......for keeping GSC up and running.
:)
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polar bear
Hoooray-Love the "Cult Addiction Recovery Group" thing.
Maybe that should be our new secret code name. I'm a CARG.
However we can't call greasespot an offshoot since it's not promoting any religious belief or doesn't solicit money. That's too much of a difference from "der veg".
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excathedra
((((((((((((((((((((( Thomas Loy Bumgarner )))))))))))))))))))))
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