I used to shun anything regarding angels, but have recently discovered Doreen Virtue and, while she's not my favorite author in the world, she and Sylvia Browne have taught me a lot. I don't agree with everything, but it's a different perspective and gives me pause to think about angels in a much different light than I ever felt safe and free to before.
I've loved watching "What the Bleep" and "The Secret"
Reading: "Why People Believe Weird Things" by the guy who founded Skeptic Magazine, "Celestine Prophecy", the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels, "The Tao of Pooh", etc.....
I now subscribe to "Science of Mind"
I'm more receptive to other beliefs, how people came to believe what they do.... so much.... it's really helped me overcome waybrain; find "my path" and respect the path of others.
I know that's pretty generic, but I haven't the time right now to contribute more.
The reason i ask, i because it seems apparent that many of us (and not just here at the GSC) reject the value of a wide variety of spiritual doctrines, spiritual books, spiritual teachers, and other spiritual subjects prior to any open honest investigation of them...meanwhile, often passionately promoting the small bandwidth of doctrines we have come to learn about and accept.
Sadly, Sir, there just isn't enough time in the day. I don't necessarily reject other spiritual values, but my time is limited and I have to pick and choose where I invest it. My selections are not intentionally dishonest; I just happen to be pursuing a subject I've deemed more important at that particular time in my life.
For example, for those who reject the value of Buddhism as a spiritual doctrine, and have never bothered to honestly investigate and compare to the same depth or degree as the doctrines you currently hold...do you think there is even value in inquiring as to why you prefer not to inquire?
Not really. I usually pick up a book or study a subject based on some question or concern that somehow got itself stuck in my head. When I have satisfactorily answered my question, I move on to whatever else my mind has latched on to. If its agnosticism, so be it. If its Buddhism, I'm okay with that too. I'd venture a guess to say the subjects I don't investigate will far, far outnumber the subjects I do by the time my life is over. There are just too many subjects out there.
and to clarify, i suppose it would help to say that a large part of what prompted me to start this thread are not just the views of those who passionately promote their doctrines
...but those who passionately promote them as superior in quality to all others, and so devaluing and otherwise attempting to marginalize and demonize the doctrines and schools of thought they have never really honestly looked into
and by demonize, i mean promoting the idea that the belief are somehow influenced by evil and deceptive forces, or otherwise going to hurt you for even looking into them and considering them...whether now or in the afterlife
so, in a sense, judging from the answers given thus far, it would seem that neither JJ nor Belle really qualify, in this regard
(though i still appreciate the responses for the way they contribute to the convo)
though JJs response does bring up a valid point, i think
about not having enough time to look into all of them enough to compare or otherwise give an honest evaluation
...which again, is not the observation that prompted this thread
though i have also noticed how, due to this vast vast exotic array of seemingly conflicting information,
(mostly talking about the thousands of years of writings of world's spiritual traditions that is now more available to the world than ever before)
a common way to justify our inability to process it all is to simply reject most of it
...which is understandable, though perhaps not the most honest way to respond to the situation
i'm not talking about admitting how we are not likely to ever look into it all (like JJ said) and/or being happy with not knowing something about it all
...but the other type of hostile rejection i mentioned before
i recall how in PFAL, we were all groomed to respond to inquiry and skepticism as a trick and trap to be avoided
which then seems to support an unwillingness to shine light into our own ignorances
let alone find value in discovering what it is we specifically avoid looking at (i.e. taboos) and why it might be
Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life.
As the truth, Jesus can teach us a lot of things.
Since there is SO MUCH to study and our time IS limited... we should seek our teacher's direction upon what to study.
A few years ago, I was led by him to study mormonism. I studied for a while and then was led to other subjects. Just because I studied it does not mean that I believed it was true... but the Lord led me to study it for all sorts of reasons. Some I know, and some I don't yet know.
More recently, I have been studying the Hindu religion... I have been slowly growing a vision for reaching out to Indians with the Gospel. God can use my understanding of Hinduism to more effectively share the Gospel with Hindus.
I also am currently trying to determine if the Lord wants me to learn a new language (talk about a time consumer). I trust that if the Lord leads me to study something, then He will give me the ability to obey him and thus He will give me the ability to understand, eventually, what I am studying.
You never really know what the Lord is going to teach you.
Of course, when it comes to determining what is absolute truth, I restrict my determination of that to what I read in the Bible. This is because the Holy Spirit has confirmed the truth of the Bible through signs and wonders well attested to and repeated.
I see your point, Sir, and agree. The people who are the most adamant against what someone else believes, frequently has the least amount of knowledge regarding what that belief really consists of. They tend to argue from a point of ignorance and intolerance. It's fruitless to discuss, much less debate with people of that mindset. I try not to bother, but have my "hot buttons" just like anyone else.
There's no way on God's green earth we could possibly read, study and learn all there is to know out there - hence, seeing through the glass darkly. BUT, if I've never studied or looked into Reiki, say, how the heck can I honestly condemn the practice and what Reiki healers believe? I can't. Not honestly and intelligently, anyway.
It's just like my ex got all up in arms when we first started hearing about El Nino and El Nina on the weather forecasts. He's yelling and screaming that the friggin' weathermen are turning into idolators and teaching it to the masses. I tried to tell him that they were referring to weather patterns and not attributing the weather to some friggin' god, but he wouldn't listen to me - cause what the he11 did I know? A year later, he comes to me explaining where the terms come from. HELLOOOOO?!?! I tried to tell him that A YEAR AGO!! Now, because he's actually learned a little bit about the terms, the history of them and what they really mean, he's changed his tune.
I think a lot more folks, like my ex, should either refrain from the discussion, ask questions and/or learn what they're talking about before they start spouting off like they are some experts or something. Furthermore, if one is going to study something from the point of proving it wrong, they aren't going to really understand it well enough to participate in a decent discussion either.
I think a lot of it is human nature. Pointing fingers and condemning other beliefs can often help us feel better about ourselves. Its a pretty potent high when you believe you have the inside scoop on the things of God. I've certainly fallen prey to it, that's for sure. Throw in a needy personality and it can really get out of hand.
Over time I've found that truth is an incredibly hard thing to come by. It takes a lot of work and consistent effort to get at it. And if you're lucky enough to get there (although I don't know how you'd actually know, especially re the spiritual), the tendency is to hold on to it for all your worth. We so don't want to be wrong about anything! But I've changed my mind on so many different subjects over the years that I don't hold on quite as hard any more. Maybe I'm just growing up.
Sometimes I wish I could approach the situation like sonofarthur. Just ask 'the teacher's' direction, be confident in the reply and be done with it. Unfortunately, I've never been able to make that work. A lot of the subjects I've had to change my mind on were obtained just that way. I certainly can't vouch for its reliability.
i recall how in PFAL, we were all groomed to respond to inquiry and skepticism as a trick and trap to be avoided
which then seems to support an unwillingness to shine light into our own ignorances
let alone find value in discovering what it is we specifically avoid looking at (i.e. taboos) and why it might be
No doubt. In our Way Days, PFAL defined the playing field. We were 'out of bounds' if we dared to stray outside of those definitions. Now, the basis for this 'fear' had a couple of legs, IMO. One was the teaching of the Eve account in Gen. & how her downfall started with the considering of words (yes, the mere consideration) was the point where the whole thing started to unravel. Eve was deceived simply because she considered discussing something that was out of bounds as per God's command. At least this was my sense of how it was taught. This is a VERY potent admonishment to 'stay in bounds'.
Now, with my own children - they did start to listen and obey when Mom or Dad said, 'Don't touch that! That is HOT!' - for the simple reason that they trusted us and we did not make a habit of lying to them. Children tend to let authority figures define the playing field for them. This habit stays with some people their whole life.
Well, to me, what SirGuess is saying is that a more 'grown up' or mature approach to learning can be undertaken - once one has determined they no longer want to remain a child (with un-founded fears; un-explored 'closets' - I am referring to areas where 'we just won't go there' for whatever reason).
I am trying to describe a process: that of putting away the childish tendancy to revert to ONLY classical authority figures 'outside' the person - when one is scared. This can be very powerful, indeed.
I know. I was scared recently when I found out I had Cancer and went through the process of diagnosis. I put that word in bold letters becaue that is how it felt to me in the beginning.
However, as a person dealing with my own Cancer, I can say that if I had relied ONLY upon 'my parents' in the situation (meaning: the authority figures - the Medical Doctors) I would be in far worse shape than I am in today. I had to face my own 'demons' and learn things for myself.
Some things I considered doing to rid myself of Cancer seemed (to my engineering-type mind) to be down right silly. But - and I mean this very deeply - I THANK GOD that I was given a chance to see these things in new light... because, there is evidence that my life has been saved...
...by first venturing a look outside...
...outside the playing field
...and into my own previously forbidden zones.
This thread topic is particularly near to me, if you can see what I am trying to say.
I have sort of been talking about this with some of the Way myspacers recently. TooGrey touched on part of what I think was a group of teachings that taught not to question and not to consider and not to doubt. Those would be the "integrity of the Word" teaching coupled with the "Eve considers and doubts, Fall of Man" teaching coupled with the "Law of believing" teaching where doubt and worry were negative believing, and fear was "false evidence appearing real." There may be more but it sure seems like after accepting just a few teachings you would be ready to dismiss everything else. It would seem to be planned that way.
Although, the Way is not the only group who does this.
I understand what sonofarthur is saying for sure. There was a time when I thought that there was just too much to look into and that if I wanted to get in to the "deep stuff" then I would have to stick with one thing in order to get there. I never would have thought that it might be possible to get into deep stuff by looking at many different perspectives and comparing and relating them.
I also think it is somewhat of a lazy habit. I think we all do it to a degree. We all want to be right as JJ said. Sonofarthur is at least looking at other ideas. For a long time I didn't even do that. When I finally did, I was discouraged by leaders in the Way. I'm not picking on you SoA. A lot of people don't even discuss, they just immediately dismiss.
I would think that if everyone decided to look into other possible spiritual explainations for the way things are that quite a few churches would have less people consistently coming. It could affect money coming it. Although, I doubt that is the mindset of most minsters. I would think that most genuinely think they are right and most everyone else is wrong.
Come to think of it, though, perhaps it is a lack of empathy or intellectual empathy. It is thinking that "because this works for me then it works for everyone this way." This type of person is seemingly unable to consider another persons motives or reasoning if it doesn't exist within the box that they sit in. I would imagine this would be the reason that no one that I talked with when I left twi could come even close to my reasons for leaving.
One was the teaching of the Eve account in Gen. & how her downfall started with the considering of words (yes, the mere consideration) was the point where the whole thing started to unravel. Eve was deceived simply because she considered discussing something that was out of bounds as per God's command. At least this was my sense of how it was taught. This is a VERY potent admonishment to 'stay in bounds'.
Aha! Something else that I never really thought about!
If Eve's first step down was to "consider" (basically she was listening), what about Jesus in the wilderness with The Devil? Didn't he listen as well?
and i'm especially grateful to see your post, Too Gray, my friend
...for more reasons than i can count, as you know
...
and i like how Belle mentioned the "seeing through a glass darkly" in the context of this thread
though, rather than expressing our general state of lack of knowing what causes what (which is a basic notion of spiritual truth...causality)
i think the fact that "glass" means "mirror" points to the importance of examining our own inner darknesses (as our first and highest priority)
...almost as if Saint Paul and Carl Jung were getting at the same kinds of things
perhaps it could be said that our priority should NOT be to save our self from the outer darkness so that we are somehow free from the darkness of the world (which is merely selfish)
...but to save the world from darkness by shining light (as light) in the dark place that is personally ours...which is a more direct and immediate path to darkness
as if paradoxically, the darkest part of our self can be our greatest ally and teacher ("the shadow is golden" is an old saying along these lines)
and aiming for darkness (ignorance, fear, etc...), more than anyting, is what helps us navigate more truly and faithfully than anything
cuz this is what light does...it aims for darkness, in order to fill it (not remove it, or kill it, or hate it)
cuz the darkness was really merely clear all along, and full of amazing things waiting to "be colored" by way of illumination
and so...if our habit becomes that our own weakest link is the most important factor in our quest for truth, goodness, beauty, etc...
then our greatest enemy becomes our greatest friend, and we are free
...and of course...we are not as much of a pain in the arse to our neighbors and the world at large
this, i believe, was a major shift in being for those first century folks we like to talk about
in how they repented, by turning completely around...which was to practice the art of introspection as an important aspect of service to the outside world
where, inside of the tribal crusading against the evil outside of themselves (often only stirring more and more evil reactions)
they saw the much greater leverage of the interior path for "peace on earth and good will towards men"
cuz the deeper we go inside...the deeper from which we view all the same stuff as before
...nothing changes except the quality of view from which we are "seated" and "resting" inside
...but to NOT repent (as i have described it)...or even worse...to institutionalize NOT repenting (like VPs "5 tricks of satan" doctrine seems to have done)
is basically to instill a program of remaining ignorant of self, by making us afraid to trust our own experiences of who we are
where most all our behaviour is driven by thoughts, feelings and impulses that we've never even seen...nor are we even interested in looking at them
almost as if to say, without knowing it... "avoid the mirror at all costs...and avoid shining light in dark places"
...
and so...the original kind of question...what cant we look at? and what can that tell us about our self?
and to add...is what we are drawn to merely the flip side of what we avoid?
Very interesting, +odd. In fact, I believe there is an article with some great thoughts about the very same thing in this month's "Science of Mind" issue. I only glanced at it, but will look more closely when I get home.
Too Gray - I never put to connection together with the real threat that "considering" what the serpent was saying with our tremendous fear of even hearing what dissenters might say about TWI and the doctrine. VERY EYE OPENING! Great "ah ha!" moment for me. Thank you!!!
I was listening to a Gnostic Podcast last night and was very intrigued by the references to "Christianity", the teachings of the Kaballah, Buddhism, Muslim, etc. The speaker would speak of something and then go through what the same thing is called in these various beliefs. It made things so much "bigger" to me - much more peripheral and clear as to how it's just labels and words, but when one gets down to the nuts and bolts - core - atomic level - it's the same.
Some things caused me to "bristle" somewhat, but then he'd say, "For you Christians out there, this is what you call....." or he'd say "In Buddhism this is called....." and "The Old Testament says this, and Kabballah further explains it as....."
I'm not sure I got much out of the actual teaching for the sheer exercise of seeing even deeper how connected we all are in our desires for explanations and the corresponding lessons/paths/whatever.... each of us ends up on and how so many of the things we may despise in other belief systems are really the same thing we believe. They just use different terms that we don't understand, so we disagree or discount what they believe without really understanding.
The problem with gnostics is that they are always trying to possess a better secret decoder ring than the last guy. If they have the best ring to understand (hidden) knowledge, then they can puff themselves up.
The problem with gnostics is that they are always trying to possess a better secret decoder ring than the last guy. If they have the best ring to understand (hidden) knowledge, then they can puff themselves up.
what i wonder about this comment, def, is how you can claim to know the secrets of every gnostic's intent?
cuz honestly, how could you make such a statement as "the problem with gnostics is that they are always trying to..."?
correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be claiming to know the secret/hidden intent of a general group of folks while poo-pooing the very same thing
as if you yourself are claiming to "possess a better secret decoder ring than the last guy"
if so (so as not to derail)...i wonder if are you interested as to why this might be?
as to why you prefer the orthodox? and avoid the quirky?
do you feel there is there something inherently wrong, or dangerous with the quirky?
...
and on a side note...what if someone has actually studied and compared and seen patterns in all those various religions,
and actually wishes to convey this learning for the benefit of mankind?
should we lump them together with gnosticism simply for wanting to knowabunchostuff?
and does wanting to knowabunchostuff instantly disqualify someone from being humble?
i mean, scripturally, is there something wrong with a lot of knowledge?
is there something wrong with comparing religions and seeing patterns?
from what i have read, for example....one passage says knowledge puffs up, while another says we are destroyed from a lack of it
another says there is no end to it, while another says to seek it out like a 49er on a gold rush
personally...i dont have a problem with the clear and obvious contradictions...cuz it makes sense to me
but like it has come in this thread...i do notice how some folks simply reject all (or most) claims of knowing spiritual things
...
btw..i do not fully agree with gnosticism, in general, as far as i understand it
though i can understand how and why it came about in history
Some things caused me to "bristle" somewhat, but then he'd say, "For you Christians out there, this is what you call....." or he'd say "In Buddhism this is called....." and "The Old Testament says this, and Kabballah further explains it as....."
I'm not sure I got much out of the actual teaching for the sheer exercise of seeing even deeper how connected we all are in our desires for explanations and the corresponding lessons/paths/whatever.... each of us ends up on and how so many of the things we may despise in other belief systems are really the same thing we believe. They just use different terms that we don't understand, so we disagree or discount what they believe without really understanding.
Dang, def59, You totally missed the whole point in your desire to friggin pigeon hole a group. *shakin head*
someone mentioned Way myspacers. Where would we find them?
I don't have much experience with myspace. I went there once and kept getting sent nasty pictures from people asking me to be their friend. I already have that kind of friend (my wife) and I don't want anymore.
then again, if I could figure out how to block the spammers on MySpace, I would love to use the service.
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Belle
Excellent question, +odd!
I used to shun anything regarding angels, but have recently discovered Doreen Virtue and, while she's not my favorite author in the world, she and Sylvia Browne have taught me a lot. I don't agree with everything, but it's a different perspective and gives me pause to think about angels in a much different light than I ever felt safe and free to before.
I've loved watching "What the Bleep" and "The Secret"
Reading: "Why People Believe Weird Things" by the guy who founded Skeptic Magazine, "Celestine Prophecy", the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Gnostic Gospels, "The Tao of Pooh", etc.....
I now subscribe to "Science of Mind"
I'm more receptive to other beliefs, how people came to believe what they do.... so much.... it's really helped me overcome waybrain; find "my path" and respect the path of others.
I know that's pretty generic, but I haven't the time right now to contribute more.
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JumpinJive
Sadly, Sir, there just isn't enough time in the day. I don't necessarily reject other spiritual values, but my time is limited and I have to pick and choose where I invest it. My selections are not intentionally dishonest; I just happen to be pursuing a subject I've deemed more important at that particular time in my life.
Not really. I usually pick up a book or study a subject based on some question or concern that somehow got itself stuck in my head. When I have satisfactorily answered my question, I move on to whatever else my mind has latched on to. If its agnosticism, so be it. If its Buddhism, I'm okay with that too. I'd venture a guess to say the subjects I don't investigate will far, far outnumber the subjects I do by the time my life is over. There are just too many subjects out there.
-JJ
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sirguessalot
thanks Belle and JJ
and to clarify, i suppose it would help to say that a large part of what prompted me to start this thread are not just the views of those who passionately promote their doctrines
...but those who passionately promote them as superior in quality to all others, and so devaluing and otherwise attempting to marginalize and demonize the doctrines and schools of thought they have never really honestly looked into
and by demonize, i mean promoting the idea that the belief are somehow influenced by evil and deceptive forces, or otherwise going to hurt you for even looking into them and considering them...whether now or in the afterlife
so, in a sense, judging from the answers given thus far, it would seem that neither JJ nor Belle really qualify, in this regard
(though i still appreciate the responses for the way they contribute to the convo)
though JJs response does bring up a valid point, i think
about not having enough time to look into all of them enough to compare or otherwise give an honest evaluation
...which again, is not the observation that prompted this thread
though i have also noticed how, due to this vast vast exotic array of seemingly conflicting information,
(mostly talking about the thousands of years of writings of world's spiritual traditions that is now more available to the world than ever before)
a common way to justify our inability to process it all is to simply reject most of it
...which is understandable, though perhaps not the most honest way to respond to the situation
i'm not talking about admitting how we are not likely to ever look into it all (like JJ said) and/or being happy with not knowing something about it all
...but the other type of hostile rejection i mentioned before
i recall how in PFAL, we were all groomed to respond to inquiry and skepticism as a trick and trap to be avoided
which then seems to support an unwillingness to shine light into our own ignorances
let alone find value in discovering what it is we specifically avoid looking at (i.e. taboos) and why it might be
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd or sirguessalot
God loves us all my dear friend
after reading your words and reading other treads I recall these words but not sure where I read them
"the suns burns plants by overheating them up or something like that"
what came to mind does the sun get mad, at the earth or the plants
I saw dogs get mad, cry. look guity, show love, and many more things
so I ask is the sun mad at the plants for blocking some of its light
does the sun, air, dust, and other things have feelings
years ago I would of said no but today I know they have feeling and they know they are alive
but this is me
Now I have many odd beliefs to some and I hope I do over push by doctrines because I try not too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sirguessalot
i think those are good questions Roy
though i am going to have to say that i really dont know
though it seems likely to me that there is some strange level of sentient awareness in things like planets and stars and minerals and atmosphere
and while i have my own experiences around such notions
and there has been plenty written and said about such things
but that is pretty far out and difficult to discuss without sounding quite bonkers to most conventional thinkers
i feel that keeping it very playful and childlike seems the best approach to that level of thing
...makes great poetry and song, ya know?
...
also, something i want to add to the previous notions on this thread
in regards to that vast pool of spiritual literature and doctrine of world history...
- it seems natural and honest for one to admit there is too much to digest, and live a happy whole life without attempting to do so
- it seems natural and less honest for one to claim supremacy over them all without ever having looked into them all
- there is nothing wrong with specializing in one (or a few) spiritual traditions, as long as one can respect other traditions.
- there is also nothing wrong with trying to study and compare them all (or as many as one wishes), if one is so inclined.
but back to original line of inquiry...is there personal value in seeing what we refuse to look at...even if we never dare to look?
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sonofarthur
Jesus said that He is the way, the truth, and the life.
As the truth, Jesus can teach us a lot of things.
Since there is SO MUCH to study and our time IS limited... we should seek our teacher's direction upon what to study.
A few years ago, I was led by him to study mormonism. I studied for a while and then was led to other subjects. Just because I studied it does not mean that I believed it was true... but the Lord led me to study it for all sorts of reasons. Some I know, and some I don't yet know.
More recently, I have been studying the Hindu religion... I have been slowly growing a vision for reaching out to Indians with the Gospel. God can use my understanding of Hinduism to more effectively share the Gospel with Hindus.
I also am currently trying to determine if the Lord wants me to learn a new language (talk about a time consumer). I trust that if the Lord leads me to study something, then He will give me the ability to obey him and thus He will give me the ability to understand, eventually, what I am studying.
You never really know what the Lord is going to teach you.
Of course, when it comes to determining what is absolute truth, I restrict my determination of that to what I read in the Bible. This is because the Holy Spirit has confirmed the truth of the Bible through signs and wonders well attested to and repeated.
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Belle
I see your point, Sir, and agree. The people who are the most adamant against what someone else believes, frequently has the least amount of knowledge regarding what that belief really consists of. They tend to argue from a point of ignorance and intolerance. It's fruitless to discuss, much less debate with people of that mindset. I try not to bother, but have my "hot buttons" just like anyone else.
There's no way on God's green earth we could possibly read, study and learn all there is to know out there - hence, seeing through the glass darkly. BUT, if I've never studied or looked into Reiki, say, how the heck can I honestly condemn the practice and what Reiki healers believe? I can't. Not honestly and intelligently, anyway.
It's just like my ex got all up in arms when we first started hearing about El Nino and El Nina on the weather forecasts. He's yelling and screaming that the friggin' weathermen are turning into idolators and teaching it to the masses. I tried to tell him that they were referring to weather patterns and not attributing the weather to some friggin' god, but he wouldn't listen to me - cause what the he11 did I know?
A year later, he comes to me explaining where the terms come from. HELLOOOOO?!?! I tried to tell him that A YEAR AGO!! Now, because he's actually learned a little bit about the terms, the history of them and what they really mean, he's changed his tune.
I think a lot more folks, like my ex, should either refrain from the discussion, ask questions and/or learn what they're talking about before they start spouting off like they are some experts or something. Furthermore, if one is going to study something from the point of proving it wrong, they aren't going to really understand it well enough to participate in a decent discussion either.
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def59
I use discernment when considering different doctrines. I tend to avoid the quirky and bizzare and am drawn to the orthodox.
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JumpinJive
I think a lot of it is human nature. Pointing fingers and condemning other beliefs can often help us feel better about ourselves. Its a pretty potent high when you believe you have the inside scoop on the things of God. I've certainly fallen prey to it, that's for sure. Throw in a needy personality and it can really get out of hand.
Over time I've found that truth is an incredibly hard thing to come by. It takes a lot of work and consistent effort to get at it. And if you're lucky enough to get there (although I don't know how you'd actually know, especially re the spiritual), the tendency is to hold on to it for all your worth. We so don't want to be wrong about anything! But I've changed my mind on so many different subjects over the years that I don't hold on quite as hard any more. Maybe I'm just growing up.
Sometimes I wish I could approach the situation like sonofarthur. Just ask 'the teacher's' direction, be confident in the reply and be done with it. Unfortunately, I've never been able to make that work. A lot of the subjects I've had to change my mind on were obtained just that way. I certainly can't vouch for its reliability.
Belle: The god of El Nino. That's too funny!
-JJ
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Too Gray Now
SirGuess said:
i recall how in PFAL, we were all groomed to respond to inquiry and skepticism as a trick and trap to be avoided
which then seems to support an unwillingness to shine light into our own ignorances
let alone find value in discovering what it is we specifically avoid looking at (i.e. taboos) and why it might be
No doubt. In our Way Days, PFAL defined the playing field. We were 'out of bounds' if we dared to stray outside of those definitions. Now, the basis for this 'fear' had a couple of legs, IMO. One was the teaching of the Eve account in Gen. & how her downfall started with the considering of words (yes, the mere consideration) was the point where the whole thing started to unravel. Eve was deceived simply because she considered discussing something that was out of bounds as per God's command. At least this was my sense of how it was taught. This is a VERY potent admonishment to 'stay in bounds'.
Now, with my own children - they did start to listen and obey when Mom or Dad said, 'Don't touch that! That is HOT!' - for the simple reason that they trusted us and we did not make a habit of lying to them. Children tend to let authority figures define the playing field for them. This habit stays with some people their whole life.
Well, to me, what SirGuess is saying is that a more 'grown up' or mature approach to learning can be undertaken - once one has determined they no longer want to remain a child (with un-founded fears; un-explored 'closets' - I am referring to areas where 'we just won't go there' for whatever reason).
I am trying to describe a process: that of putting away the childish tendancy to revert to ONLY classical authority figures 'outside' the person - when one is scared. This can be very powerful, indeed.
I know. I was scared recently when I found out I had Cancer and went through the process of diagnosis. I put that word in bold letters becaue that is how it felt to me in the beginning.
However, as a person dealing with my own Cancer, I can say that if I had relied ONLY upon 'my parents' in the situation (meaning: the authority figures - the Medical Doctors) I would be in far worse shape than I am in today. I had to face my own 'demons' and learn things for myself.
Some things I considered doing to rid myself of Cancer seemed (to my engineering-type mind) to be down right silly. But - and I mean this very deeply - I THANK GOD that I was given a chance to see these things in new light... because, there is evidence that my life has been saved...
...by first venturing a look outside...
...outside the playing field
...and into my own previously forbidden zones.
This thread topic is particularly near to me, if you can see what I am trying to say.
Thanks for the chance to tell a bit of it. :)
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lindyhopper
I have sort of been talking about this with some of the Way myspacers recently. TooGrey touched on part of what I think was a group of teachings that taught not to question and not to consider and not to doubt. Those would be the "integrity of the Word" teaching coupled with the "Eve considers and doubts, Fall of Man" teaching coupled with the "Law of believing" teaching where doubt and worry were negative believing, and fear was "false evidence appearing real." There may be more but it sure seems like after accepting just a few teachings you would be ready to dismiss everything else. It would seem to be planned that way.
Although, the Way is not the only group who does this.
I understand what sonofarthur is saying for sure. There was a time when I thought that there was just too much to look into and that if I wanted to get in to the "deep stuff" then I would have to stick with one thing in order to get there. I never would have thought that it might be possible to get into deep stuff by looking at many different perspectives and comparing and relating them.
I also think it is somewhat of a lazy habit. I think we all do it to a degree. We all want to be right as JJ said. Sonofarthur is at least looking at other ideas. For a long time I didn't even do that. When I finally did, I was discouraged by leaders in the Way. I'm not picking on you SoA. A lot of people don't even discuss, they just immediately dismiss.
I would think that if everyone decided to look into other possible spiritual explainations for the way things are that quite a few churches would have less people consistently coming. It could affect money coming it. Although, I doubt that is the mindset of most minsters. I would think that most genuinely think they are right and most everyone else is wrong.
Come to think of it, though, perhaps it is a lack of empathy or intellectual empathy. It is thinking that "because this works for me then it works for everyone this way." This type of person is seemingly unable to consider another persons motives or reasoning if it doesn't exist within the box that they sit in. I would imagine this would be the reason that no one that I talked with when I left twi could come even close to my reasons for leaving.
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Oakspear
If Eve's first step down was to "consider" (basically she was listening), what about Jesus in the wilderness with The Devil? Didn't he listen as well?
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sirguessalot
thanks for responding, guys
and i'm especially grateful to see your post, Too Gray, my friend
...for more reasons than i can count, as you know
...
and i like how Belle mentioned the "seeing through a glass darkly" in the context of this thread
though, rather than expressing our general state of lack of knowing what causes what (which is a basic notion of spiritual truth...causality)
i think the fact that "glass" means "mirror" points to the importance of examining our own inner darknesses (as our first and highest priority)
...almost as if Saint Paul and Carl Jung were getting at the same kinds of things
perhaps it could be said that our priority should NOT be to save our self from the outer darkness so that we are somehow free from the darkness of the world (which is merely selfish)
...but to save the world from darkness by shining light (as light) in the dark place that is personally ours...which is a more direct and immediate path to darkness
as if paradoxically, the darkest part of our self can be our greatest ally and teacher ("the shadow is golden" is an old saying along these lines)
and aiming for darkness (ignorance, fear, etc...), more than anyting, is what helps us navigate more truly and faithfully than anything
cuz this is what light does...it aims for darkness, in order to fill it (not remove it, or kill it, or hate it)
cuz the darkness was really merely clear all along, and full of amazing things waiting to "be colored" by way of illumination
and so...if our habit becomes that our own weakest link is the most important factor in our quest for truth, goodness, beauty, etc...
then our greatest enemy becomes our greatest friend, and we are free
...and of course...we are not as much of a pain in the arse to our neighbors and the world at large
this, i believe, was a major shift in being for those first century folks we like to talk about
in how they repented, by turning completely around...which was to practice the art of introspection as an important aspect of service to the outside world
where, inside of the tribal crusading against the evil outside of themselves (often only stirring more and more evil reactions)
they saw the much greater leverage of the interior path for "peace on earth and good will towards men"
cuz the deeper we go inside...the deeper from which we view all the same stuff as before
...nothing changes except the quality of view from which we are "seated" and "resting" inside
...but to NOT repent (as i have described it)...or even worse...to institutionalize NOT repenting (like VPs "5 tricks of satan" doctrine seems to have done)
is basically to instill a program of remaining ignorant of self, by making us afraid to trust our own experiences of who we are
where most all our behaviour is driven by thoughts, feelings and impulses that we've never even seen...nor are we even interested in looking at them
almost as if to say, without knowing it... "avoid the mirror at all costs...and avoid shining light in dark places"
...
and so...the original kind of question...what cant we look at? and what can that tell us about our self?
and to add...is what we are drawn to merely the flip side of what we avoid?
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Belle
Very interesting, +odd. In fact, I believe there is an article with some great thoughts about the very same thing in this month's "Science of Mind" issue. I only glanced at it, but will look more closely when I get home.
Too Gray - I never put to connection together with the real threat that "considering" what the serpent was saying with our tremendous fear of even hearing what dissenters might say about TWI and the doctrine. VERY EYE OPENING! Great "ah ha!" moment for me. Thank you!!!
I was listening to a Gnostic Podcast last night and was very intrigued by the references to "Christianity", the teachings of the Kaballah, Buddhism, Muslim, etc. The speaker would speak of something and then go through what the same thing is called in these various beliefs. It made things so much "bigger" to me - much more peripheral and clear as to how it's just labels and words, but when one gets down to the nuts and bolts - core - atomic level - it's the same.
Some things caused me to "bristle" somewhat, but then he'd say, "For you Christians out there, this is what you call....." or he'd say "In Buddhism this is called....." and "The Old Testament says this, and Kabballah further explains it as....."
I'm not sure I got much out of the actual teaching for the sheer exercise of seeing even deeper how connected we all are in our desires for explanations and the corresponding lessons/paths/whatever.... each of us ends up on and how so many of the things we may despise in other belief systems are really the same thing we believe. They just use different terms that we don't understand, so we disagree or discount what they believe without really understanding.
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def59
The problem with gnostics is that they are always trying to possess a better secret decoder ring than the last guy. If they have the best ring to understand (hidden) knowledge, then they can puff themselves up.
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sirguessalot
what i wonder about this comment, def, is how you can claim to know the secrets of every gnostic's intent?
cuz honestly, how could you make such a statement as "the problem with gnostics is that they are always trying to..."?
correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be claiming to know the secret/hidden intent of a general group of folks while poo-pooing the very same thing
as if you yourself are claiming to "possess a better secret decoder ring than the last guy"
if so (so as not to derail)...i wonder if are you interested as to why this might be?
as to why you prefer the orthodox? and avoid the quirky?
do you feel there is there something inherently wrong, or dangerous with the quirky?
...
and on a side note...what if someone has actually studied and compared and seen patterns in all those various religions,
and actually wishes to convey this learning for the benefit of mankind?
should we lump them together with gnosticism simply for wanting to knowabunchostuff?
and does wanting to knowabunchostuff instantly disqualify someone from being humble?
i mean, scripturally, is there something wrong with a lot of knowledge?
is there something wrong with comparing religions and seeing patterns?
from what i have read, for example....one passage says knowledge puffs up, while another says we are destroyed from a lack of it
another says there is no end to it, while another says to seek it out like a 49er on a gold rush
personally...i dont have a problem with the clear and obvious contradictions...cuz it makes sense to me
but like it has come in this thread...i do notice how some folks simply reject all (or most) claims of knowing spiritual things
...
btw..i do not fully agree with gnosticism, in general, as far as i understand it
though i can understand how and why it came about in history
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cman
looking past the wars and seeing the peace is no small challenge for most
to enter into worlds with the sword sheathed and a hand up intent on a more perfect understanding
few can bear the pressure that is demanded of humility and giving instead of taking
certainly easy in one's own backyard, but the front seems to kick against the sidewalk
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Belle
Dang, def59, You totally missed the whole point in your desire to friggin pigeon hole a group. *shakin head*
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cman
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cman
Unto the pure all things are pure.
So if we have been, want to be, or will be.
There could be something pure in all these different doctrines.
And within our own selves
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sonofarthur
someone mentioned Way myspacers. Where would we find them?
I don't have much experience with myspace. I went there once and kept getting sent nasty pictures from people asking me to be their friend. I already have that kind of friend (my wife) and I don't want anymore.
then again, if I could figure out how to block the spammers on MySpace, I would love to use the service.
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