satan - the devil.

[Abigail]

Yes, but not necessarily the same interpretation. If you go strictly by the old testament, and especially with the book of Job, Satan does not appear to be the powerful adversary of God as he is portrayed in the new testament. In Job he is admitted into God's presence and appears to have God's permission to do what he does.

Judaism does not view the Satan of Job as an evil being. The Satan of Job is a spirit being, like Michael, Gabriel, etc. Satan's job was to go to and from in the earth and watch the people. Once a year, at Yom Kippur, Satan would report to God about the doings of the people, as God was deciding whose name would be written in the Book of Life for the upcoming year. Now, if you think about it, the idea that God needs someone else to see what each man is up to is something of a contradiction to the concept of God being all knowing and all powerful.

Thus, the entire concept of Satan, in the book of Job and elsewhere, is figurative. Many Christian denominations twist things around to make things fit in a literal format. In order for Satan to be literal - for Satan to literally be the God of this Word, there has to be all of these other laws that the all powerful God must follow. There has to be a literal person who died and rose from the dead to bring us salvation. A person who was God's only begotten son, who apparently even God couldn't or wouldn't spare. A salvation, I might add, that seems to do little good for us in the here and now, because it still rains on the just and unjust alike. Somehow, the all powerful God is bound by rules that the God of this world is not.

Yet, ironically, salvation was available before the all loving father allowed his only begotten son to be murdered. Not through following the laws perfectly, either, as some who know not so much about Judaism would tell you. Which again makes me wonder what exactly was the point of the all powerful god allowing the less than powerful devil murder his son?

I guess that makes sense to some people. I know I bought into it at one time too - though a part of me also always questioned the validity of the logic. However, if we quit trying to take it all so literally - if we simply sit back and look for the bigger picture, the bigger lesson, it all begins to take on a more personal meaning. It requires less twisting and knotting to make a logic that really isn't there.

And none of that is intended to be a slam against Christianity as a whole, or the teachings of Jesus. It is simply a statment about literalism and fundamentalism. About taking lessons that could be so simple and beautiful, and twisting them around to create a whole new set of laws for people to try to aspire to. If we couldn't perfectly follow the laws God laid out for us via Moses, why on earth would we try to create an entirely new set of them? Ones which are so difficult, we can't even beging to figure out or agree upon what they mean or how they are to be applied, or even to whom they are to be applied??

[cman]

That's pretty cool Abi.

In light of who knows the heart of men and women and all that.

And just to converse about this and that openly without fear of "doctrinal reproof".

Certainly appealing to me.

Every one it seems in "christian" circles wants to force some belief when Jesus taught quite differently.

Allowing for the hearer to hear and understanding to come in it's own time and terms.

And also that the understanding of one person may be different then another.

And neither is wrong.

[Bramble]

Did you have a bonfire,Oakspear? I did a solitary thing, but the night sky was gorgeous.

[ChasUFarley]

yes i was aware that they gave a date in the 70s..

and obviously were wrong..

they pinpointed the start of the last days 1914...i think that is about right when you look

how things have panned out since then though..

i havent any ties with the way i came here by accident if you like.. i clicked on someones

link on another forum something about mormans, and because i was involved with them

i wanted to see what it was about.. and here i am...

i'd never heard of the way before then..

how i look at the dates thing "no one knows the day or the hour"

and we {people} can only go by the things that are happening and give a rough estimate.

and as things in the world are unfolding i'm even more convinced..

people have said to me whens babylon going to fall..i think its already started..

nothing i see on the news surprises me anymore...especially whats happening with

the muslim religion and other religions..now its like i'm half expecting things, when they happen.

how long were you a jw for? if you dont mind me asking.

starbird x x x

Sorry I'm just now getting back to you...

I wasn't a JW, perse, but my nanny was. My parents permitted her to bring me to the Kingdom Hall, out witnessing, etc. - I don't think they really understood what was going on and they worked a lot. I was also her ears in someways, as she was deaf, and she taught me sign language (just simple stuff really - I probably couldn't converse with it for long.)

Interestingly enough, I was raised Mormon.

Then, I joined The Way.

Boy, now that I look at it, I'm just a cult 'ho, aren't I?

[starbird]

Sorry I'm just now getting back to you...

I wasn't a JW, perse, but my nanny was. My parents permitted her to bring me to the Kingdom Hall, out witnessing, etc. - I don't think they really understood what was going on and they worked a lot. I was also her ears in someways, as she was deaf, and she taught me sign language (just simple stuff really - I probably couldn't converse with it for long.)

Interestingly enough, I was raised Mormon.

Then, I joined The Way.

Boy, now that I look at it, I'm just a cult 'ho, aren't I?

ROTFL.. :)

starbird x x x

[cman]

Yeah I know the story that was supposed to happen when Lucifer got kicked out of heaven with a third of the angels. All before man and all that.

I don't buy it at all.

The devil would not exist without man, so it's a story far deeper then something outside of a life.

But I don't focus on that, the 2 thirds out number the 1 third, therefore overcoming that which is against me.

If you think Revelations 12 is about the Messiah being born you are quite right. And it is closer to 'home' then you think. O imo of course..........

[The Bard Child]

I believe that Devil has been twisted alot by man and the church. They use Pagan deities and warp them, into something malenvolent, to show the Pagan natives that what they are worshipping the "Devil" and should convert. Hence we have this wonderful sterotype on pantheists and Wiccan, as devil worshippers :3

Wiether we really have a figure called "Lucifer" who is now the Advesary of God. Is up to the indivual

[TheInvisibleDan]

I had a dream this morning in which I saw my late mother, who passed away a few months ago.

Upon my realization within this dream that she had passed away,

I responded with the old fear instilled in me years ago that this wasn't my mother,

but must be a demon impersonating her.

Upon waking up, I was extremely disappointed and even anguished that I reacted the way I did.

And was stunned at how deep the vestiges of old garbage doctrines from years ago can still hide in one's mind.

I say to you young ones out there - the sooner you shake this insideous devil spirit fiction, the better.

The psychological scars from these religiously created boogymen apparently run very deep, and can take a lifetime

to shake.

Danny

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Danny

God loves you my dear friend

sorry to hear you lost your mother a few months ago

I saw my mother in a dream too it took me a few dreams before I just enjoy the dream and visit her

today I visit her and others in my dreams

thank you

with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy

[TheInvisibleDan]

Roy,

You have a heart of gold.

Thank you so much for your kind words.

Danny

[cman]

I don't think people get the language being spoken about the devil.

It's all quite beyond anything that is taught that i've seen.

From what i know of it, instead of going by what i have been told.

To believe that there is something like the devil that is like God and against him.

Ha-they seemed pretty friendly to each other in Job.

"Hey Devil, Wassup Dude"

"O nothin much just walkin around, hey hows it with you?"

"Heeeeeyyyyyyy!!!!!! dude, look at Job man ain't he somethin!!!!"

"hmmm that gives me an idea"

[Oakspear]

cman, that made my morning