Umm, there is no pagan god that is equivalent to the Christian Satan, a god of only evil. Not even dark gods, like Set.
Chaos is seen as a necessary element, so there can be order. Rebellion has its place, just like obedience or cooperation does.
Sometimes people who have experienced chaos and powerlessness feel an affinity for powerful protector gods like Set or Kali.
Set was also sexually ambiguous(testacles ripped off) so some gay men have an affinity for him. Also many have experienced chaos and or feeling powerless, especially in adolescence...
Black/ white good/ evil type thinking is not what I would consider a hallmark of modern pagan thought.
A Set follower would not necessarily be malevolent toward others..
Umm, there is no pagan god that is equivalent to the Christian Satan, a god of only evil. Not even dark gods, like Set.
Are you saying Satan is a god of evil? Because, Satan/Lucifer, isn't a deity at all. If anything he's on the same level as the Archangels. Michael, Raphael and Gabriel (Uriel too if you believe in a forth)
Are you saying Satan is a god of evil? Because, Satan/Lucifer, isn't a deity at all. If anything he's on the same level as the Archangels. Michael, Raphael and Gabriel (Uriel too if you believe in a forth)
This is an "on-one-hand-on-the-other-hand" type of situation. Technically Satan/The Devil is on the same level as the angels, but he is viewed as God's main opponent and the author of death and evil as God is the author of life and light. Very similar to a mirror-image evil god in the way he is spoken of and regarded, even though few would put him on the same level as "The" God.
Bramble's point was that Christianity's Satan is viewed as the source of all evil and that there is no pagan equivalent to this.
if you believe in god then you believe he created the earth the whole adam & eve thing.
in the very begining satan {the original serpent} was around then...
Starbird, it is interesting that you view Judaism as the first religion and then move from that to Adam, Eve and Satan. You might be interested in knowing that Judaism does not believe in the Devil, even remotely. At least, not even remotely akin to how Christians believe in the Devil. The concept of Satan and the Devil is very much figurative in Judaism.
Thank you Oakspear, that si what I was trying to say!
And for the record, I don't believe Satan is a god, or that he even exists. I think he is just tooo convenient. A huge boogey man to keep the little peoples in line.
Starbird, it is interesting that you view Judaism as the first religion and then move from that to Adam, Eve and Satan. You might be interested in knowing that Judaism does not believe in the Devil, even remotely. At least, not even remotely akin to how Christians believe in the Devil.
Abigail, that is what I find most interesting of all.
I suspect the seeds for that which sprouted into "the Devil" in Christianity were planted
from Judaism(s) contact with the Parthian/Persian religions, with their pantheons of
angels and demons. By the time we arrive to the Dead Sea scrolls we witness struggles
between "the children of light" and "the children of darkness", a theme reverberated
through the writer(s) of the Johannine literature.
Abigail, that is what I find most interesting of all.
I suspect the seeds for that which sprouted into "the Devil" in Christianity were planted
from Judaism(s) contact with the Parthian/Persian religions, with their pantheons of
angels and demons. By the time we arrive to the Dead Sea scrolls we witness struggles
between "the children of light" and "the children of darkness", a theme reverberated
through the writer(s) of the Johannine literature.
Danny
I suspect you are correct. Traditionally, Judaism does not spend a lot of time and focus on esoteric/spiritual issues. The main focus is on how to live our lives in the here and now, how to make our community and world a better place. There are pockets that are more esoteric - the Chabad, for example. But even there, the moral values that come from the spiritualistic tales still come down to how we can practically work toward bettering our community and world. Perhaps that is one of the reasons it appeals to me so much. There is room to debate the esoteric, but most would agree we simply have opinions and no proven fact. I like the practical - and the freedom to decide what truly is or is not practical for my family.
Thank you Oakspear, that si what I was trying to say!
And for the record, I don't believe Satan is a god, or that he even exists. I think he is just tooo convenient. A huge boogey man to keep the little peoples in line.
Boy, the more I read on these things the more I realise how backwards modern Christianity is.
We take the most recent translations of the Bible and we squeeze as much sense out of it as we can, pasteurize it, can it, and label it "NOW 99.9999% God Breathed!" Then, since we have THE truth, we work backwards, the best we can, to take history and myth and fact and mounds of other texts and documents and anything that sounds similar and try to connect at least one dot to our latest concept and ignore the rest, or worse label the rest as lies.
Another way we could do this would be to look as far back as possilble and work forward. Look at the Judean concept of Satan. Look at the other influences on Isreal over time and the religions and idea of those cultures and then look back at Judean writing around that time and perhaps correlate the ideas and how they changed. Look at the veiw of what Satan was before and after Babylonian rule, before and after Zoroastrian influence, before and after Hellenistic influence, before and after Roman influence, etc. see the interaction of ideas and schools of thought. Then get the bigger picture. (Of course, some ARE doing this.)
But no, we must read THE one true book because it claims to be THE one true book and says that it is THE one true way and THE one true view and we have THE one true can-O-truth and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To even consider thinking anything contrary brings us one step closer to spontanious combustion!
and we have THE one true can-O-truth and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To even consider thinking anything contrary brings us one step closer to spontanious combustion!
I have been reading GS for years and seldom post, in fact I forgot my sign in name and had to re-do everything just recently. But this particular thread caught my interest, sooo...
First of all I would like to say "Great topic"! I especially enjoy the responses in this one. To Year2027 you took my thinking in a completely different direction and it is incredible! Also great work on the whole "Whale/Dragon" stuff. I always knew there was something hinky about that word but never took the time to look.
To everyone else Please continue I am truely enjoying this one, it is enlightening.
In case you are wondering I am not being sarcastic at all, I really am liking this thread.
DMiller, I'll take that cup of coffee if you got some cream that needs a home.
Year2027, God loves you as well friend.
Thank you both for the warm welcome. I just love reading the diverse opinions that are expressed in these threads. The amount of research and dare I say revelation that is also shared is very illuminating as well. Please forgive me if I do not post a great deal. I assure you that despite my lack of interaction I am not a "hanger outer" (you have a name for it but I have forgotten it already), nor am I a person with no opinion, nor am I antisocial, I just do not post a lot.
Thanks so much again for the welcome and the cup of coffee. I am sitting back now to drink said coffee and read some more threads.
a hearty welcome to the many new hypertextual voices around here
...i'll add to this here graffiti on the subject...
i recall that aha-click moment upon first hearing the ole "the devil's greatest trick is to get people to disbelieve in him" schticke
...but i am pretty convinced that perhaps the ole devil story has more uses than that
as if we are pretty much doomed to literally believe in him for awhile...at least til the literal devil is "done with us" ...in a sense
..."over and over again," as it were...so as not to miss a thing...where those aha-click moments are more of a string of clicks
...like the clicks of a timer for some bun in the oven
cuz it seems to me "the devil" has the potential to become MORE spiritually valuable to us as a metaphor
long after the "magic enemy" story served as a useful tool for gathering humanity in groups and stimulating commonality (both cult and culture)
and then it seems there comes another exponential increase in the communicative value with rational thinking
and then another with whatever occurs when rational thought meets its limits...so on and so forth
as if the reasons for the "magic enemy" story are as increasingly as true as ever
such as when it becomes a valuable metaphor for communicating just what it is that is be-deviling us
tho, it seems we often fear that to move from literal devil to metaphorical devil is somehow devaluing the literal view
as if the devil is somehow tricking us to do such a thing
but i believe we can actually "speak of the devil" in ways that are simply MORE free, and more real, and more useful and helpful to whomever
because we have widened the field of what are allowed to be talking about when we use the word "devil"
almost as if we naturally 1) move from literal devil to 2) metaphorical devil then 3) back to literal devil again with a much broader meaning and intent
though it seems "we" have mostly lost our tongue for talking about the devil in such a way
as if it is no longer a part of most of our mainstream cultures' skillsets
but i must confess...i do believe and have seen how a more radically free approach can really open the fields of possibility in how we can discuss the actual causes of who and what torments us
and something most astounding, i feel, is how by merely practicing it....merely playing at it...merely leaning towards it...
it can really go a long way to freeing our tongues (which are connected directly to our bodies hearts and minds, of course)
as a potter, we can permit our perception of cause to move and shape in a way that includes all our previous worldviews
...but not in a way that rejects the purpose and structures of those firstborn ones
i sometimes wonder if perhaps the devil is our 'last enemy to be destroyed'
when find our way free of our enmity with 'him' (which is not by actually destroying the devil..as if)
in other words...the last being we must actually really truly forgive and 'love as our self'
is more like forgiving ourselves for falling for 'his other trick'
which was to believe in 'him' as 'other' in the first place
i mean, when did Jesus hate or blame or accuse the old dragon for evil?
...is it possible that 'Satan' IS transformed into an angel of light? and we are not to be ignorant of this, and fooled into this endless enmity with 'him'?
I glad so many come here to read what we have to say
its not about if we get a reply its about giving people a place to come and read
and there nothing to forgive post as must and as little has each person see's best in their life
I hope I can say this for all "we understand and all glad so many are here even if its just to read us and think about what was wrote here on this board"
Bard Child, you could do a lot worse than having a friend like WordWolf. :)
I've got to drop this off at the booth in the back, but will bring your cream and a menu by shortly.
I tell ya, I have learned sooo much from these kinds of discussions at the Cafe. I've learned about "straw men", logical fallacies and all kinds of debate techniques in addition to learning about the actual subject being discussed. It's great to watch even when I haven't got a whit to contribute.
Eyes, I think "lurker" is the word you were looking for.... and lurkers are always welcome. It's the "trolls" and "drive by posters" who are infuriating. ^_^
Starbird, it is interesting that you view Judaism as the first religion and then move from that to Adam, Eve and Satan. You might be interested in knowing that Judaism does not believe in the Devil, even remotely. At least, not even remotely akin to how Christians believe in the Devil. The concept of Satan and the Devil is very much figurative in Judaism.
so what religion was moses and abraham..
satan was around at the begining {if you believe the bible}
dont those who practice judaism believe in the old testament?
"then jehovah said to satan " where have you come from" at that satan answered
jehovah and said "from roving about in the earth and walking about in it" {job 2:2}
"Eyes, I think "lurker" is the word you were looking for.... and lurkers are always welcome. It's the "trolls" and "drive by posters" who are infuriating. ^_^ [/color]"
That's right, "lurker", I kind of like that word. It makes me feel a little nefarious. I promise not to be a troll or a drive by poster if you get me one of those ice cream sundays you are passing out. (Sorry Mom and Mrs. Owens I was never really good at eating things in the propper order. )
Thanks for all the great welcomes! Now I will shut up and eat my icecream.
Judaism is a religion that developed over the centuries. I don't know if you could even call what Abraham had a "religion" under any definition. Sticking to the biblical account, God talked to him personally, gave a few simple rules and guidelines and left it at that. According to the bible, there doesn't seem to have been much of a structure until Moses, just "worship me" and "don't worship those other gods".
Even though Moses received The Law, starting with the tablets and continuing with more information over the years, there was no temple, no synagogues, no land of their own, until at least the time of David.
satan was around at the begining {if you believe the bible}
dont those who practice judaism believe in the old testament?
Yes, but not necessarily the same interpretation. If you go strictly by the old testament, and especially with the book of Job, Satan does not appear to be the powerful adversary of God as he is portrayed in the new testament. In Job he is admitted into God's presence and appears to have God's permission to do what he does.
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The Bard Child
Isn't the first Orgianzed religion Hinduism? And Pagan Pan-theism?
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Bramble
Umm, there is no pagan god that is equivalent to the Christian Satan, a god of only evil. Not even dark gods, like Set.
Chaos is seen as a necessary element, so there can be order. Rebellion has its place, just like obedience or cooperation does.
Sometimes people who have experienced chaos and powerlessness feel an affinity for powerful protector gods like Set or Kali.
Set was also sexually ambiguous(testacles ripped off) so some gay men have an affinity for him. Also many have experienced chaos and or feeling powerless, especially in adolescence...
Black/ white good/ evil type thinking is not what I would consider a hallmark of modern pagan thought.
A Set follower would not necessarily be malevolent toward others..
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The Bard Child
Are you saying Satan is a god of evil? Because, Satan/Lucifer, isn't a deity at all. If anything he's on the same level as the Archangels. Michael, Raphael and Gabriel (Uriel too if you believe in a forth)
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Oakspear
Bramble's point was that Christianity's Satan is viewed as the source of all evil and that there is no pagan equivalent to this.
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Abigail
Starbird, it is interesting that you view Judaism as the first religion and then move from that to Adam, Eve and Satan. You might be interested in knowing that Judaism does not believe in the Devil, even remotely. At least, not even remotely akin to how Christians believe in the Devil. The concept of Satan and the Devil is very much figurative in Judaism.
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Bramble
Thank you Oakspear, that si what I was trying to say!
And for the record, I don't believe Satan is a god, or that he even exists. I think he is just tooo convenient. A huge boogey man to keep the little peoples in line.
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TheInvisibleDan
Abigail, that is what I find most interesting of all.
I suspect the seeds for that which sprouted into "the Devil" in Christianity were planted
from Judaism(s) contact with the Parthian/Persian religions, with their pantheons of
angels and demons. By the time we arrive to the Dead Sea scrolls we witness struggles
between "the children of light" and "the children of darkness", a theme reverberated
through the writer(s) of the Johannine literature.
Danny
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Abigail
I suspect you are correct. Traditionally, Judaism does not spend a lot of time and focus on esoteric/spiritual issues. The main focus is on how to live our lives in the here and now, how to make our community and world a better place. There are pockets that are more esoteric - the Chabad, for example. But even there, the moral values that come from the spiritualistic tales still come down to how we can practically work toward bettering our community and world. Perhaps that is one of the reasons it appeals to me so much. There is room to debate the esoteric, but most would agree we simply have opinions and no proven fact. I like the practical - and the freedom to decide what truly is or is not practical for my family.
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Oakspear
I'm on my way to ritual...go Bridget!
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lindyhopper
Boy, the more I read on these things the more I realise how backwards modern Christianity is.
We take the most recent translations of the Bible and we squeeze as much sense out of it as we can, pasteurize it, can it, and label it "NOW 99.9999% God Breathed!" Then, since we have THE truth, we work backwards, the best we can, to take history and myth and fact and mounds of other texts and documents and anything that sounds similar and try to connect at least one dot to our latest concept and ignore the rest, or worse label the rest as lies.
Another way we could do this would be to look as far back as possilble and work forward. Look at the Judean concept of Satan. Look at the other influences on Isreal over time and the religions and idea of those cultures and then look back at Judean writing around that time and perhaps correlate the ideas and how they changed. Look at the veiw of what Satan was before and after Babylonian rule, before and after Zoroastrian influence, before and after Hellenistic influence, before and after Roman influence, etc. see the interaction of ideas and schools of thought. Then get the bigger picture. (Of course, some ARE doing this.)
But no, we must read THE one true book because it claims to be THE one true book and says that it is THE one true way and THE one true view and we have THE one true can-O-truth and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. To even consider thinking anything contrary brings us one step closer to spontanious combustion!
Good luck with that.
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Siouxzahn
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Eyesopen
Hi all,
I have been reading GS for years and seldom post, in fact I forgot my sign in name and had to re-do everything just recently. But this particular thread caught my interest, sooo...
First of all I would like to say "Great topic"! I especially enjoy the responses in this one. To Year2027 you took my thinking in a completely different direction and it is incredible! Also great work on the whole "Whale/Dragon" stuff. I always knew there was something hinky about that word but never took the time to look.
To everyone else Please continue I am truely enjoying this one, it is enlightening.
In case you are wondering I am not being sarcastic at all, I really am liking this thread.
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dmiller
Eyesopen --- Welcome to GreaseSpot. :)
(First cup of coffee is on me.)
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year2027
God first
Beloved Eyesopen
God loves you my friend
welcome
I am glad you enjoyed the "Whale/Dragon" stuff
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Eyesopen
DMiller, I'll take that cup of coffee if you got some cream that needs a home.
Year2027, God loves you as well friend.
Thank you both for the warm welcome. I just love reading the diverse opinions that are expressed in these threads. The amount of research and dare I say revelation that is also shared is very illuminating as well. Please forgive me if I do not post a great deal. I assure you that despite my lack of interaction I am not a "hanger outer" (you have a name for it but I have forgotten it already), nor am I a person with no opinion, nor am I antisocial, I just do not post a lot.
Thanks so much again for the welcome and the cup of coffee. I am sitting back now to drink said coffee and read some more threads.
God Bless!!
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sirguessalot
a hearty welcome to the many new hypertextual voices around here
...i'll add to this here graffiti on the subject...
i recall that aha-click moment upon first hearing the ole "the devil's greatest trick is to get people to disbelieve in him" schticke
...but i am pretty convinced that perhaps the ole devil story has more uses than that
as if we are pretty much doomed to literally believe in him for awhile...at least til the literal devil is "done with us" ...in a sense
..."over and over again," as it were...so as not to miss a thing...where those aha-click moments are more of a string of clicks
...like the clicks of a timer for some bun in the oven
cuz it seems to me "the devil" has the potential to become MORE spiritually valuable to us as a metaphor
long after the "magic enemy" story served as a useful tool for gathering humanity in groups and stimulating commonality (both cult and culture)
and then it seems there comes another exponential increase in the communicative value with rational thinking
and then another with whatever occurs when rational thought meets its limits...so on and so forth
as if the reasons for the "magic enemy" story are as increasingly as true as ever
such as when it becomes a valuable metaphor for communicating just what it is that is be-deviling us
tho, it seems we often fear that to move from literal devil to metaphorical devil is somehow devaluing the literal view
as if the devil is somehow tricking us to do such a thing
but i believe we can actually "speak of the devil" in ways that are simply MORE free, and more real, and more useful and helpful to whomever
because we have widened the field of what are allowed to be talking about when we use the word "devil"
almost as if we naturally 1) move from literal devil to 2) metaphorical devil then 3) back to literal devil again with a much broader meaning and intent
though it seems "we" have mostly lost our tongue for talking about the devil in such a way
as if it is no longer a part of most of our mainstream cultures' skillsets
but i must confess...i do believe and have seen how a more radically free approach can really open the fields of possibility in how we can discuss the actual causes of who and what torments us
and something most astounding, i feel, is how by merely practicing it....merely playing at it...merely leaning towards it...
it can really go a long way to freeing our tongues (which are connected directly to our bodies hearts and minds, of course)
as a potter, we can permit our perception of cause to move and shape in a way that includes all our previous worldviews
...but not in a way that rejects the purpose and structures of those firstborn ones
we can use any ole words we like
and literally breath new life into them
or some such thing...
:P
Happy Late Brigit's Day
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sirguessalot
a memory as an after thought...
as strange as this may sound to some..
...perhaps even like a fart in church, im sure
i sometimes wonder if perhaps the devil is our 'last enemy to be destroyed'
when find our way free of our enmity with 'him' (which is not by actually destroying the devil..as if)
in other words...the last being we must actually really truly forgive and 'love as our self'
is more like forgiving ourselves for falling for 'his other trick'
which was to believe in 'him' as 'other' in the first place
i mean, when did Jesus hate or blame or accuse the old dragon for evil?
...is it possible that 'Satan' IS transformed into an angel of light? and we are not to be ignorant of this, and fooled into this endless enmity with 'him'?
just saying...
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year2027
God first
Beloved Eyesopen and other new and old posters
God loves us all my friend
thanks and God bless you too Eyesopen
I glad so many come here to read what we have to say
its not about if we get a reply its about giving people a place to come and read
and there nothing to forgive post as must and as little has each person see's best in their life
I hope I can say this for all "we understand and all glad so many are here even if its just to read us and think about what was wrote here on this board"
and I am sure "DMiller" has some cream for you
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Belle
Welcome, Eyesopen and all the other new diners!
Bard Child, you could do a lot worse than having a friend like WordWolf. :)
I've got to drop this off at the booth in the back, but will bring your cream and a menu by shortly.
I tell ya, I have learned sooo much from these kinds of discussions at the Cafe. I've learned about "straw men", logical fallacies and all kinds of debate techniques in addition to learning about the actual subject being discussed. It's great to watch even when I haven't got a whit to contribute.
Eyes, I think "lurker" is the word you were looking for.... and lurkers are always welcome. It's the "trolls" and "drive by posters" who are infuriating. ^_^
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starbird
so what religion was moses and abraham..
satan was around at the begining {if you believe the bible}
dont those who practice judaism believe in the old testament?
"then jehovah said to satan " where have you come from" at that satan answered
jehovah and said "from roving about in the earth and walking about in it" {job 2:2}
starbird x
welcome eyesopen
love your pic
starbird x x x
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year2027
God first
Beloved starbird
God loves you my friend
The first religion was sin about 3973 BC
Adam begin the ministry of sin at age 30 years old
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Abigail
As I said, it is viewed figuratively, not literally.
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Eyesopen
"Eyes, I think "lurker" is the word you were looking for.... and lurkers are always welcome. It's the "trolls" and "drive by posters" who are infuriating. ^_^ [/color]"
That's right, "lurker", I kind of like that word. It makes me feel a little nefarious. I promise not to be a troll or a drive by poster if you get me one of those ice cream sundays you are passing out.
(Sorry Mom and Mrs. Owens I was never really good at eating things in the propper order. 
)
Thanks for all the great welcomes! Now I will shut up and eat my icecream.
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Oakspear
Even though Moses received The Law, starting with the tablets and continuing with more information over the years, there was no temple, no synagogues, no land of their own, until at least the time of David.
Yes, but not necessarily the same interpretation. If you go strictly by the old testament, and especially with the book of Job, Satan does not appear to be the powerful adversary of God as he is portrayed in the new testament. In Job he is admitted into God's presence and appears to have God's permission to do what he does.Link to comment
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