doing gods will requires an accurate knowledge of both god and jesus christ.
Sure, but everybody says that they have an accurate knowledge, and their are countless differences among these "accurate" doctrines
such knowledge leads to everlasting life. surely then, all of us will want to take seriously the matter of gaining accurate knowledge from gods word the bible.
Many do, many also do not accept that the bible is a source of accurate knowledge.
the bible encourages us to increase in the knowledge of god and his purposes.
such knowledge is a protection against contamination of our worship.
the bible says to read the bible, therefore we should read the bible.
likely many have thought they were worshiping in the right way, although they were not doing what god wanted. they were being mislead into unclean false worship. these enemys of god {satan & his demons} have definately been polluting mankinds worship.
And who gets to choose who is worshipping correctly and who is not?
do you therefore see the need to make sure that your worship is not contaminted by any kind of idolatry? {1 corinthians 10:14}
You haven't convinced me. And you probably haven't been around long enough to know where i stand on the bible and it's god.
Edited by Oakspear
likely many have thought they were worshiping in the right way, although they
were not doing what god wanted. they were being mislead into unclean false worship.
these enemys of god {satan & his demons} have definately been polluting mankinds
worship.
How can you be sure this hasnt happened to your religion? It is a religion run by man. The men say that God leads them, but so does everyone else.
What make you think that thier way is the right way?
Is it not possible that demons are influncing the Governing body? They are only men.
What sets them apart from everyone else?
Other religions reject the trinity doctrine, others speak of paradise earth (or heaven on earth), others know the history of christmas and of its roots.
What is it about the JWs that speaks to you?
What makes them right and the others wrong?
Im not trying to come down on you, but I would be interested to hear your answer.
Did they tell you about how they pinpointed the DAY that Armageddon would start? (Basically, the day the world was going to end.)
Yep... they did - it was a public thing they released back in the late 70's. How do I know? I was there. :unsure:
All hell was going to break loose that day - it was scary as hell. I really thought that a crack in the pavement was going to swallow me up that day.
Anyhow, you know what? It didn't happen. How do I know? I'm STILL HERE. :)
My Bible says that if a prophet is a true prophet then what he/she says will come to pass. In the Old Testament, prophets were stoned to death for a false prophesy. Thank God for grace, eh? (Whoops - JW's don't believe in grace, do they? )
(This isn't me saying your church president should be stoned - only that saved by grace is a doctrinal difference. I am very tolerant of other religions/beliefs.)
I will say that the one thing I did take away from my JW experience was the one God (non-trinity) belief that I still hold true today. I still believe that God is Jesus Christ's father and that they are not one with the Holy Spirit, etc. They are on the ball with that teaching.
Maybe you've answered this on other posts - so please forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself - but what were your ties to The Way? I'm just curious what brings you here - you're most certainly welcome - I'm just intrigued by your current beliefs, I must admit.
Maybe you've answered this on other posts - so please forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself - but what were your ties to The Way? I'm just curious what brings you here - you're most certainly welcome - I'm just intrigued by your current beliefs, I must admit.
Perhaps I can answer that Chas. Starbird has already ignored Socks asking the same question,
and I hate to see my guitar talk buddies being ignored, so here goes.
Starbird was never in twi (that much has been admitted by star here already).
Star saw a post on Jehovah Witnesses Online (JWO) where Refiner, Roy, and I were talking.
In one of the posts, star saw a link to GSC, and came here.
How do I know this? She (I think a *she* - I could be wrong), told me so in chat here.
Starbird was in chat here at GSC, quoted a verse (for whatever reason),
and gave the scripture reference. It sounded familiar, but it wasn't KJV or NIV.
On a hunch -- I pulled out my copy of NWT (New World Translation), used by JW's.
Star's verse was word for word what I read here in the NWT.
So I pm'd star here in the chatroom, and asked about it.
Star asked why I asked, and I told star that was what I was reading from my copy of NWT.
So star admitted it. Then I asked starbird, "How did you hear about GSC?"
Star told me about the link seen from the thread where Refiner, Roy, and myself were talking.
So I guess it's because of me and that link, that star's here.
(I'm assuming I'm the one who posted that link,
although Roy does also, when certain subjects here are being discussed),
that seem *applicable* to a discussion going on over there.
Regardless -- I don't know of anyone over on JWO named starbird.
Meebe starbird is trolling there as someone else, since JWO is EX JW,
just as we at GSC are EX twi.
Starbird is (as is obvious by recent posts), still a *GUNG-HO* Jehovah's Witness.
The crowd at JWO is rougher than ours, 10x over.
Toleration for an active JW there is non-existant.
*Snowball's chance in hell" comes to mind.
So there you have it. I doubt starbird would have said how she came here.
Starbird's ignored MANY direct questions already. What's one more??
Did they tell you about how they pinpointed the DAY that Armageddon would start? (Basically, the day the world was going to end.)
Yep... they did - it was a public thing they released back in the late 70's. How do I know? I was there. :unsure:
All hell was going to break loose that day - it was scary as hell. I really thought that a crack in the pavement was going to swallow me up that day.
Anyhow, you know what? It didn't happen. How do I know? I'm STILL HERE. :)
My Bible says that if a prophet is a true prophet then what he/she says will come to pass. In the Old Testament, prophets were stoned to death for a false prophesy. Thank God for grace, eh? (Whoops - JW's don't believe in grace, do they? )
(This isn't me saying your church president should be stoned - only that saved by grace is a doctrinal difference. I am very tolerant of other religions/beliefs.)
I will say that the one thing I did take away from my JW experience was the one God (non-trinity) belief that I still hold true today. I still believe that God is Jesus Christ's father and that they are not one with the Holy Spirit, etc. They are on the ball with that teaching.
Maybe you've answered this on other posts - so please forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself - but what were your ties to The Way? I'm just curious what brings you here - you're most certainly welcome - I'm just intrigued by your current beliefs, I must admit.
yes i was aware that they gave a date in the 70s..
and obviously were wrong..
they pinpointed the start of the last days 1914...i think that is about right when you look
how things have panned out since then though..
i havent any ties with the way i came here by accident if you like.. i clicked on someones
link on another forum something about mormans, and because i was involved with them
i wanted to see what it was about.. and here i am...
i'd never heard of the way before then..
how i look at the dates thing "no one knows the day or the hour"
and we {people} can only go by the things that are happening and give a rough estimate.
and as things in the world are unfolding i'm even more convinced..
people have said to me whens babylon going to fall..i think its already started..
nothing i see on the news surprises me anymore...especially whats happening with
the muslim religion and other religions..now its like i'm half expecting things, when they happen.
how long were you a jw for? if you dont mind me asking.
starbird..not trying to be a smart a$$ punk or anything...but for what its worth...i'll just pluck this one out if the pile...
you wrote:
i've looked into and been part of many religions in the past
ok....well, i, for one, would like to hear more about this part
i mean, can you give an idea of the depth and degrees of exposure and experience with all the many many many many religions traditions and schools of thought that there are?
you know...
how long...how many years?
what teachers...and what did they teach you? and who taught them?
and what books? what arts? what stories and experiences have been involved?
what practices? what disciplines? what demonstrable process for helping "cultivate spiritual fruit" have you found?
...yada yada yada..and all that kind of stuff
cuz honestly...just how many different schools within schools of thought and forms of spiritual arts and practices are there to reject/consider?
a dozen?
a hundred?
a thousand?
more?
cuz you seem to think you might know
...tho i wonder if you really do
and i ask because i'm more or less a fool
and am not sure how else to respond to the dialogues you've started since you've hypertextually arrived
...except to try and ask something useful, i guess...if you dont mind
and i have found that inquiring as to how something might have happened
is more valuably interesting than dead-end either/or options
so i am curious as to how you can claim to have experienced enough of the human condition to make such a solid decision as to which model of the way of the universe is MOST true and reliable
Anybody else ever wonder why God would allow a lying, malicious, invisible and incredibly powerful being to wreak havoc on his creation? You could get stoned to death in the OT for gathering sticks on the wrong day but this creature is allowed to live and continue his murderous ways without repercussion.
-JJ
Amen. Such an impotent and irresponsible "creator" and father figure.
So you dont see the possiblilty that they could be corrupted? The JWs that is.
putting your trust in the WTS is putting your faith in man, not God.
Which do you read more, the watchtower (and other JW books) or the bible?
you said somewhere on another post, something to the effect that you dont follow mans traditions. Which is why I ask.
would you say the watchtower is as inspired as the bible?
If the bible is so simple to understand, then why does any one need a WT to explain it?
do you believe that God would want to destory people, who truely love Him, but dont follow the JWs? People who read the bible but dont read the WT. People who come to thier own conclusions.
Amen. Such an impotent and irresponsible "creator" and father figure.
Its called being "just''.
did not anyone read Sock's post?????????
The ''devil'' doensn't go around ''wreaking havoc''. Man does it, and when they do, they are ''of the devil''. I John 3:8
He was the first to disobey......the one that fought against God, the one's example that we follow when we choose to sin. God is not impotent..............on the contrary. He's very capable of getting rid of the devil (which He promises He will ), but doing so right now, well, he mind as well get rid of all the ''sinners'' too.
SOCKS SAID : "And it would seem that God has both free "will" and makes choices, decisions and takes action based on His nature. That is reflected in what He does, creates, etc. to varying degrees, it seems.
Angels, like Lucifer, sound like they have free will and the ability to choose and act on their choices. Mankind does too. Where God's will directly produces results, it seems as though - man's will produces choices, actions, based on the the choices that are available to us. There's a range of "power", cause and effect that's much more limited to man and it seems Lucifer, an angel. In a way I might picture it as - God wills and creates a "heaven and earth". Man wills and decides to build a set of shelves. We know what it might take to build the shelves or can find out, it's a tad more difficult to understand what and how God's will and choices are accomplished, but the way the bible describes things there is a higher purpose and process at work, one that is pretty much out of our grasp.
Angels like Lucifer seem to have purposes and processes too, and they're difficult to undestand as well. If Satan is a "spirit" being, we don't really know how all of that works, although the bible describes it in places and we get pieces of what he does, is doing, will do, etc.
It's difficult to get a personality profile on Lucifer from the bible I think, but the way he's described makes him sound like he exercises his will and chooses to run at cross purposes to God. Sort of like a fly in the ointment. A very big fly. He challenges authority, offers alternatives to God's known purposes, accuses mankind of they're wrong choices and failings, and generally is Mr. Dark Cloud without much of anything constructive or supportive to offer to any effort to pursue a straight and true course of action with God.
Knowing that we can choose "right" or "wrong" Satan offers the "wrong" choice, the "other way" to man.
Yet man is able to exercise his own will and construct his world and life the way he/she determines too. So within the scope of our lives here we can build the kind of world we want. We can produce good, or bad. The bad exists independent of Lucifer/Satan/the Devil. He's actively promoting an "ungodly" choice. If we choose against God we have a ready accomplice in Satan. Yet, he is one who offers no support really - by his own choice he doesn't appear to want to do anymore than create havoc.
I can see that Lucifer had been, can be and is a very strong influence on mankind, but not an overwhelming one. Man has the ability to exercise his own conscience, his ability to know instinctively and through accumulated experience what can be right or wrong choice in much of life. Man, with Christ, has the upper hand.
If mankind pursues selfish greed-based goals for instance, he cuts out that possiblity of seeing a greater good and wants only what's good for himself. Pride, greed, selfishness, fear, that's the "dark side" as Yoda would say. A person would reject a God who suggests that we live to love Him, and one another. Instead of helping others to have a good life, we might steal from them, take what they already have. "Thou shalt not steal". Ha! Not if I want what you have.
In many ways I feel that mankind therefore has the ability to make a good world and a good life for themselves and others, by choice. We're tempted to do otherwise all the time, and that temptation is promoted by Lucifer who prefers to do otherwise himself. His negative influence and presence can't be totally contained - for now - but it can be controlled."
If mankind pursues selfish greed-based goals for instance, he cuts out that possiblity of seeing a greater good and wants only what's good for himself. Pride, greed, selfishness, fear, that's the "dark side" as Yoda would say. A person would reject a God who suggests that we live to love Him, and one another. Instead of helping others to have a good life, we might steal from them, take what they already have. "Thou shalt not steal". Ha! Not if I want what you have.
Which is excatly what Lucifer wanted. He was very "self" oriented, and I believe arrogant, being God's second in command. That his vainty and greed is want knocked him off his platform. And ultimatly threw him in to Tartarus/Hell/Oblivion/Big Scary Place...ect. Now here were I think it gets interesting. Didn't other angels follow him? 1/3 said, "Hey! Luci has the right idea, lets blow this pop-stand!" and so they fell with Lucifer. IMO I think the Devil/Lucifer/The Evil One/Satan/Insert your own villan name...ect. Doesn't see himself as "evil" He's believes he's probably wants to show man the "other" alternative. And proove that Man doesn't need God, and being gullible and sin loving. Hey! We signed our own death warrant. The 1/3 angels did't see their fates being bottom-feeding spiratual parasites (Demons in simple terms )
Well that was my attempt on sounding pseudo-intelligent this afternoon. My name is Bard Child, and I'm a friend of WordWolf who showed me this site. I don't I made any sense before <<, But I think I was trying to theroize the nature of Devil *shurge* oh well...
So you dont see the possiblilty that they could be corrupted? The JWs that is.
putting your trust in the WTS is putting your faith in man, not God.
Which do you read more, the watchtower (and other JW books) or the bible?
you said somewhere on another post, something to the effect that you dont follow mans traditions. Which is why I ask.
would you say the watchtower is as inspired as the bible?
If the bible is so simple to understand, then why does any one need a WT to explain it?
do you believe that God would want to destory people, who truely love Him, but dont follow the JWs? People who read the bible but dont read the WT. People who come to thier own conclusions.
Leonardo
i dont think the jehovahs witnesses are corrupted..but thats not to say none of jehovahs
witnesses sin we all sin every day they know that as much as anyone..
i put my faith in god...not the watchtower society.. i have regard for them of course..
because i think they have the right doctrine of the bible..
i read the bible more..i study the watchtower and other books as an aid to the bible.
what i mean by mans traditions is patriotism..etc
i think the watchtower and other study books are written by men who are inspired by god.
by inspired i mean motivation by divine influence.
so the bible is more inspired as god and jesus actually spoke to the prophets and writers
of the bible
its not that you need a watchtower to explain the bible...the writers of the watchtower
write on subjects that are relevent for things that are happening...
of course god dosnt want to destroy anyone he loves us all we are his creation
"however let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones that one day is with
jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. jehovah is not slow
respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness but he is patient with you
because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain
repentance" {2peter 3:8,9}
"i jehovah, am your god the one teaching you to benefit yourself, the one causing you to tread
in the way in which you should walk.
O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! then your peace
would become just like a river and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
and your offspring would become just like the sand and the descendants from
your inward parts like the grains of it. ones name would not be cut off or annihilated
bliss, hope that adds to the discussion. I PM'd you back, so how's it go - "check your PM's" :)
If we're talking about the Horny One, Satan, still - I think a lot of the Judeo/ Christian image and ideas might have gotten picked up from other religions, like the Egyptian mythologies. There was a thread a ways back, can't remember when, I commented on the ancient god "Set" and another poster had a bunch of stuff tht hit on a lot of different influences. My memory's sputtering today, sorry.
Not to say that what's in the bible isn't true, but that the whole image and impression that's popular in some Christian circles of Satan may just be a mixed bag of "gods", different religions way of interpreting.
The Egyptian religion had a god named "Set" who represented rebellion and chaos. He was the "evil" one,. Set is often called "the Prince of Darkness", and some "pagan" thought today sees Set as the god, real or not, that represents a higher pursuit of thought and achievement for humanity. Set sounds a lot like Satan in some ways, and the images of Set look like popular images of "devils" that are used today. That chaos and rebellion against gods of light is like Satan's rebellion against God. People today that invoke that god's influence seem to see it as a higher road to personal enlightenment, where the individual's personal interests are given the highest priority.
Which - again - from a certain view would seem to the way to go. If you want to truly disengage from all accepted moral and ethical influences and reinvent the world to your own making, a Setian energized religion would suit you well.
It's a little scarey though, even without the horns and weird heads. People that invoke those kinds of gods and pursue that train of thought are better left alone and to their own devices, IMO.
The bible's big generic message is IMO "good will win out over bad". And good is clearly choosing God, the creator, the Father of Jesus Christ, and doing our best to emulate that Son, Jesus Christ. He laid clear the way, truth and the light of how to conduct our lives. With Jesus, the physical activities of Satan were controllable and dealt with. In Jesus's world, Satan went about his business and Jesus His. In the end what was achieved wasn't what Satan probably thought at that time.
The Egyptian religion had a god named "Set" who represented rebellion and chaos. He was the "evil" one,. Set is often called "the Prince of Darkness", and some "pagan" thought today sees Set as the god, real or not, that represents a higher pursuit of thought and achievement for humanity. Set sounds a lot like Satan in some ways, and the images of Set look like popular images of "devils" that are used today. That chaos and rebellion against gods of light is like Satan's rebellion against God. People today that invoke that god's influence seem to see it as a higher road to personal enlightenment, where the individual's personal interests are given the highest priority.
I have a theory, that the Church need a physical image of Satan, so they grab-bagged different Pagan deities, including Set and Some sort of Ram-fertility god, heck maybe even Pan? I've always invisioned, "Satan" to be attractive to fool and decive humans. After all it's so easy to believe pretty words from a pretty face.
...I can see that Lucifer had been, can be and is a very strong influence on mankind, but not an overwhelming one. Man has the ability to exercise his own conscience, his ability to know instinctively and through accumulated experience what can be right or wrong choice in much of life. Man, with Christ, has the upper hand.
If mankind pursues selfish greed-based goals for instance, he cuts out that possiblity of seeing a greater good and wants only what's good for himself. Pride, greed, selfishness, fear, that's the "dark side" as Yoda would say. A person would reject a God who suggests that we live to love Him, and one another. Instead of helping others to have a good life, we might steal from them, take what they already have. "Thou shalt not steal". Ha! Not if I want what you have.
In many ways I feel that mankind therefore has the ability to make a good world and a good life for themselves and others, by choice. We're tempted to do otherwise all the time, and that temptation is promoted by Lucifer who prefers to do otherwise himself. His negative influence and presence can't be totally contained - for now - but it can be controlled.
Great post, Socks!...In my opinion TWI is not the only group that seem a little too fascinated with the world of demons – maybe even to the point of being more focused and concerned about their power instead of - - - whoa, whoa, whoa - - back up a minute! Bet you thought I was going to say "instead of God's power available to them." Well, I would have in my TWI daze…When my TWIt-brain perceived life as a constant spiritual battle – always on the lookout for devil spirits behind a tree or behind someone who disagreed with my precious TWI-doctrine. Yeah – I was a Rambo for god [that's right small "g" for TWI's god-in-a-bottle…all yah do is rub the holy book PFAL three times and he comes out] – out there on the front lines – looking for something to cast out, identify or sending 'em running away scared at Rambo with all nine all the time…Great stuff for building false-confidence in my life – and for relieving oneself of moral responsibilities – blame it on the devil instead.
What your post made me think of – is that I "see" things a little differently now. Yes I still believe there's an invisible battle going on – spiritual warfare – both without and within [my own sinful nature]. What has changed for me is how I deal with that warfare. The moral aspects of your post hit home for me! As a soldier in the Lord's army I now think my standing orders from God are to live an upright life, morally sound…obeying God – THAT is the best preparation for the spiritual battle!
Romans 13:9-14 NIV
9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Notice in the above passage surrounded by moral directives is verse 12, "So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light." That armor is available to everyone – by making good moral choices. Yah don't need no stinkin' advanced class.
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God first
Beloved starbird
God loves us all my dear friend
your answer to Oakspear question "If the bible's so uncomplicated, why do we have thousands of denominations?"
I do not agree with you because of these verses
1 Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
if we only prophesy in part as did Paul and all others then to have accurate knowledge we must have all the parts but we do not
but God and Christ do
plus the more parts we add together the closer we get to a accurate knowledge
yes when the only perfect things (Jesus Christ) comes back for us to lead us to know as we are known
and the bible not perfect like some teach because it was only prophesied in part
the true reason we have thousands of denominations is people get learn one part and forget there other parts of the picture
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing way Roy
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Oakspear
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Leonardo
How can you be sure this hasnt happened to your religion? It is a religion run by man. The men say that God leads them, but so does everyone else.
What make you think that thier way is the right way?
Is it not possible that demons are influncing the Governing body? They are only men.
What sets them apart from everyone else?
Other religions reject the trinity doctrine, others speak of paradise earth (or heaven on earth), others know the history of christmas and of its roots.
What is it about the JWs that speaks to you?
What makes them right and the others wrong?
Im not trying to come down on you, but I would be interested to hear your answer.
Leonardo
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starbird
i've looked into and been part of many religions in the past,
but i'd always be questioning certain things...
then i started to talk to the jws...and that was it something just clicked,
i read somethings especially on the propecies on the last days
{world powers etc} and my blood would run cold..
i'm going back 25 yrs...things i learnt - slowly i could see starting to happen..
i'm convinced now absolutley convinced...
i didnt go into it easily i gave them hell to start with....
for me, they are right. i looked into it took it apart and examined it.
that was that...
starbird x x x
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ChasUFarley
Did they tell you about how they pinpointed the DAY that Armageddon would start? (Basically, the day the world was going to end.)
Yep... they did - it was a public thing they released back in the late 70's. How do I know? I was there. :unsure:
All hell was going to break loose that day - it was scary as hell. I really thought that a crack in the pavement was going to swallow me up that day.
Anyhow, you know what? It didn't happen. How do I know? I'm STILL HERE. :)
My Bible says that if a prophet is a true prophet then what he/she says will come to pass. In the Old Testament, prophets were stoned to death for a false prophesy. Thank God for grace, eh? (Whoops - JW's don't believe in grace, do they?
)
(This isn't me saying your church president should be stoned - only that saved by grace is a doctrinal difference. I am very tolerant of other religions/beliefs.)
I will say that the one thing I did take away from my JW experience was the one God (non-trinity) belief that I still hold true today. I still believe that God is Jesus Christ's father and that they are not one with the Holy Spirit, etc. They are on the ball with that teaching.
Maybe you've answered this on other posts - so please forgive me if I'm asking you to repeat yourself - but what were your ties to The Way? I'm just curious what brings you here - you're most certainly welcome - I'm just intrigued by your current beliefs, I must admit.
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dmiller
Perhaps I can answer that Chas. Starbird has already ignored Socks asking the same question,
and I hate to see my guitar talk buddies being ignored, so here goes.
Starbird was never in twi (that much has been admitted by star here already).
Star saw a post on Jehovah Witnesses Online (JWO) where Refiner, Roy, and I were talking.
In one of the posts, star saw a link to GSC, and came here.
How do I know this? She (I think a *she* - I could be wrong), told me so in chat here.
Starbird was in chat here at GSC, quoted a verse (for whatever reason),
and gave the scripture reference. It sounded familiar, but it wasn't KJV or NIV.
On a hunch -- I pulled out my copy of NWT (New World Translation), used by JW's.
Star's verse was word for word what I read here in the NWT.
So I pm'd star here in the chatroom, and asked about it.
Star asked why I asked, and I told star that was what I was reading from my copy of NWT.
So star admitted it. Then I asked starbird, "How did you hear about GSC?"
Star told me about the link seen from the thread where Refiner, Roy, and myself were talking.
So I guess it's because of me and that link, that star's here.
(I'm assuming I'm the one who posted that link,
although Roy does also, when certain subjects here are being discussed),
that seem *applicable* to a discussion going on over there.
Regardless -- I don't know of anyone over on JWO named starbird.
Meebe starbird is trolling there as someone else, since JWO is EX JW,
just as we at GSC are EX twi.
Starbird is (as is obvious by recent posts), still a *GUNG-HO* Jehovah's Witness.
The crowd at JWO is rougher than ours, 10x over.
Toleration for an active JW there is non-existant.
*Snowball's chance in hell" comes to mind.
So there you have it. I doubt starbird would have said how she came here.
Starbird's ignored MANY direct questions already. What's one more??
:unsure:
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starbird
yes i was aware that they gave a date in the 70s..
and obviously were wrong..
they pinpointed the start of the last days 1914...i think that is about right when you look
how things have panned out since then though..
i havent any ties with the way i came here by accident if you like.. i clicked on someones
link on another forum something about mormans, and because i was involved with them
i wanted to see what it was about.. and here i am...
i'd never heard of the way before then..
how i look at the dates thing "no one knows the day or the hour"
and we {people} can only go by the things that are happening and give a rough estimate.
and as things in the world are unfolding i'm even more convinced..
people have said to me whens babylon going to fall..i think its already started..
nothing i see on the news surprises me anymore...especially whats happening with
the muslim religion and other religions..now its like i'm half expecting things, when they happen.
how long were you a jw for? if you dont mind me asking.
starbird x x x
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starbird
erm excuse me i have answered many times how i came to be here.....
if you hadnt noticed i've been a bit snowed under....
i didnt duck that question at all why should i.....i told you on chat and many others.
how i came to be here..
the reason i was on that ex jw site was i didnt realise it was ex jw at first.
untill i read through a few posts..it dosnt say ex jehovahs witness on the title
it just said jehovahs witness discussion..when i realised i left...
and to think you were so nice to me on chat....
starbird
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year2027
God first
Beloved starbird
God loves you my dear friend
yes there is "one faith" but its not the JW Ministry are any other man made church or ministry
Its the faith of the persons heart
but as for "one God" there are many
there God the Father -- there God the Mother -- and there scripture for God the Mother
there god of this world the devil
there God the son - Jesus Christ while Jesus Christ is a God he not the same God as God the Father is
then there god the man made god of self
one orginal true spiritual God then after the death of Christ we have two God's kind
others God's like being to be born as children
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Siouxzahn
Hi starbird; you wrote:
To me those are two contradictory statements.
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sirguessalot
starbird..not trying to be a smart a$$ punk or anything...but for what its worth...i'll just pluck this one out if the pile...
you wrote:
ok....well, i, for one, would like to hear more about this part
i mean, can you give an idea of the depth and degrees of exposure and experience with all the many many many many religions traditions and schools of thought that there are?
you know...
how long...how many years?
what teachers...and what did they teach you? and who taught them?
and what books? what arts? what stories and experiences have been involved?
what practices? what disciplines? what demonstrable process for helping "cultivate spiritual fruit" have you found?
...yada yada yada..and all that kind of stuff
cuz honestly...just how many different schools within schools of thought and forms of spiritual arts and practices are there to reject/consider?
a dozen?
a hundred?
a thousand?
more?
cuz you seem to think you might know
...tho i wonder if you really do
and i ask because i'm more or less a fool
and am not sure how else to respond to the dialogues you've started since you've hypertextually arrived
...except to try and ask something useful, i guess...if you dont mind
and i have found that inquiring as to how something might have happened
is more valuably interesting than dead-end either/or options
so i am curious as to how you can claim to have experienced enough of the human condition to make such a solid decision as to which model of the way of the universe is MOST true and reliable
...or some such thing
you like....1000 years old or something?
:blink:
:B)
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Siouxzahn
Amen. Such an impotent and irresponsible "creator" and father figure.
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dmiller
And I will continue to be nice to you -- in chat and on the forums here.
One thing (I think) EVERONE HERE AGREES WITH WITH ---,
is that I am the most NON-CONFRONTATIONAL poster you will ever run across.
Now -- Just because I told the story of how you came here,
is due (simply) to the fact, that you have avoided other questions in the (recent) past.
Be that as it may -- I'm not trying to be a *jerk*,
nor will I continue to be (if you think I am).
I call the cards, when they hit the table.
I don't care if you're *snowed under* or not. That's your doing, not mine.
For what it's worth -- I neither love you, nor hate you.
All I'm doing here, is replying to your posts,
and asking a coupla questions here and there.
If you find that *unacceptable*, so be it.
God bless, and have a nice day. :)
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Leonardo
So you dont see the possiblilty that they could be corrupted? The JWs that is.
putting your trust in the WTS is putting your faith in man, not God.
Which do you read more, the watchtower (and other JW books) or the bible?
you said somewhere on another post, something to the effect that you dont follow mans traditions. Which is why I ask.
would you say the watchtower is as inspired as the bible?
If the bible is so simple to understand, then why does any one need a WT to explain it?
do you believe that God would want to destory people, who truely love Him, but dont follow the JWs? People who read the bible but dont read the WT. People who come to thier own conclusions.
Leonardo
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WordWolf
Actually, the 1970s was the LAST time they set a date for the Apocalypse and were wrong.
Dates were set in the 1800s, and a few in the 1910's.
Eventually, those dates were retroactively assigned new meanings, since obviously
they weren't the Apocalypse.
Don't worry, you'll live to see it again. The one in the 1970s will likewise be renamed
eventually.
As to arbitrarily picking dates for the last days,
I personally think that Europeans who lived through the Black Death a millenium ago
had a MUCH stronger case for the end of the world than anyone in the 20th century had.
A handful of nations in yet another war? Wasn't even the first REAL World War-
it had as much involvement as the Napoleonic Wars, so that should be the REAL World War I.
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Oakspear
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bliss
Its called being "just''.
did not anyone read Sock's post?????????
The ''devil'' doensn't go around ''wreaking havoc''. Man does it, and when they do, they are ''of the devil''. I John 3:8
He was the first to disobey......the one that fought against God, the one's example that we follow when we choose to sin. God is not impotent..............on the contrary. He's very capable of getting rid of the devil (which He promises He will ), but doing so right now, well, he mind as well get rid of all the ''sinners'' too.
SOCKS SAID : "And it would seem that God has both free "will" and makes choices, decisions and takes action based on His nature. That is reflected in what He does, creates, etc. to varying degrees, it seems.
Angels, like Lucifer, sound like they have free will and the ability to choose and act on their choices. Mankind does too. Where God's will directly produces results, it seems as though - man's will produces choices, actions, based on the the choices that are available to us. There's a range of "power", cause and effect that's much more limited to man and it seems Lucifer, an angel. In a way I might picture it as - God wills and creates a "heaven and earth". Man wills and decides to build a set of shelves. We know what it might take to build the shelves or can find out, it's a tad more difficult to understand what and how God's will and choices are accomplished, but the way the bible describes things there is a higher purpose and process at work, one that is pretty much out of our grasp.
Angels like Lucifer seem to have purposes and processes too, and they're difficult to undestand as well. If Satan is a "spirit" being, we don't really know how all of that works, although the bible describes it in places and we get pieces of what he does, is doing, will do, etc.
It's difficult to get a personality profile on Lucifer from the bible I think, but the way he's described makes him sound like he exercises his will and chooses to run at cross purposes to God. Sort of like a fly in the ointment. A very big fly. He challenges authority, offers alternatives to God's known purposes, accuses mankind of they're wrong choices and failings, and generally is Mr. Dark Cloud without much of anything constructive or supportive to offer to any effort to pursue a straight and true course of action with God.
Knowing that we can choose "right" or "wrong" Satan offers the "wrong" choice, the "other way" to man.
Yet man is able to exercise his own will and construct his world and life the way he/she determines too. So within the scope of our lives here we can build the kind of world we want. We can produce good, or bad. The bad exists independent of Lucifer/Satan/the Devil. He's actively promoting an "ungodly" choice. If we choose against God we have a ready accomplice in Satan. Yet, he is one who offers no support really - by his own choice he doesn't appear to want to do anymore than create havoc.
I can see that Lucifer had been, can be and is a very strong influence on mankind, but not an overwhelming one. Man has the ability to exercise his own conscience, his ability to know instinctively and through accumulated experience what can be right or wrong choice in much of life. Man, with Christ, has the upper hand.
If mankind pursues selfish greed-based goals for instance, he cuts out that possiblity of seeing a greater good and wants only what's good for himself. Pride, greed, selfishness, fear, that's the "dark side" as Yoda would say. A person would reject a God who suggests that we live to love Him, and one another. Instead of helping others to have a good life, we might steal from them, take what they already have. "Thou shalt not steal". Ha! Not if I want what you have.
In many ways I feel that mankind therefore has the ability to make a good world and a good life for themselves and others, by choice. We're tempted to do otherwise all the time, and that temptation is promoted by Lucifer who prefers to do otherwise himself. His negative influence and presence can't be totally contained - for now - but it can be controlled."
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The Bard Child
Which is excatly what Lucifer wanted. He was very "self" oriented, and I believe arrogant, being God's second in command. That his vainty and greed is want knocked him off his platform. And ultimatly threw him in to Tartarus/Hell/Oblivion/Big Scary Place...ect. Now here were I think it gets interesting. Didn't other angels follow him? 1/3 said, "Hey! Luci has the right idea, lets blow this pop-stand!" and so they fell with Lucifer. IMO I think the Devil/Lucifer/The Evil One/Satan/Insert your own villan name...ect. Doesn't see himself as "evil" He's believes he's probably wants to show man the "other" alternative. And proove that Man doesn't need God, and being gullible and sin loving. Hey! We signed our own death warrant. The 1/3 angels did't see their fates being bottom-feeding spiratual parasites (Demons in simple terms
)
Well that was my attempt on sounding pseudo-intelligent this afternoon. My name is Bard Child, and I'm a friend of WordWolf who showed me this site. I don't I made any sense before <<, But I think I was trying to theroize the nature of Devil *shurge* oh well...
anyway, nice meeting all of you.
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starbird
i dont think the jehovahs witnesses are corrupted..but thats not to say none of jehovahs
witnesses sin we all sin every day they know that as much as anyone..
i put my faith in god...not the watchtower society.. i have regard for them of course..
because i think they have the right doctrine of the bible..
i read the bible more..i study the watchtower and other books as an aid to the bible.
what i mean by mans traditions is patriotism..etc
i think the watchtower and other study books are written by men who are inspired by god.
by inspired i mean motivation by divine influence.
so the bible is more inspired as god and jesus actually spoke to the prophets and writers
of the bible
its not that you need a watchtower to explain the bible...the writers of the watchtower
write on subjects that are relevent for things that are happening...
of course god dosnt want to destroy anyone he loves us all we are his creation
"however let this one fact not be escaping your notice, beloved ones that one day is with
jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. jehovah is not slow
respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness but he is patient with you
because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain
repentance" {2peter 3:8,9}
"i jehovah, am your god the one teaching you to benefit yourself, the one causing you to tread
in the way in which you should walk.
O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! then your peace
would become just like a river and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.
and your offspring would become just like the sand and the descendants from
your inward parts like the grains of it. ones name would not be cut off or annihilated
from before me" {isaiah 48:17-19}
starbird x x x
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socks
Thanks dmiller. Now I know, didn't before.
bliss, hope that adds to the discussion. I PM'd you back, so how's it go - "check your PM's" :)
If we're talking about the Horny One, Satan, still - I think a lot of the Judeo/ Christian image and ideas might have gotten picked up from other religions, like the Egyptian mythologies. There was a thread a ways back, can't remember when, I commented on the ancient god "Set" and another poster had a bunch of stuff tht hit on a lot of different influences. My memory's sputtering today, sorry.
Not to say that what's in the bible isn't true, but that the whole image and impression that's popular in some Christian circles of Satan may just be a mixed bag of "gods", different religions way of interpreting.
The Egyptian religion had a god named "Set" who represented rebellion and chaos. He was the "evil" one,. Set is often called "the Prince of Darkness", and some "pagan" thought today sees Set as the god, real or not, that represents a higher pursuit of thought and achievement for humanity. Set sounds a lot like Satan in some ways, and the images of Set look like popular images of "devils" that are used today. That chaos and rebellion against gods of light is like Satan's rebellion against God. People today that invoke that god's influence seem to see it as a higher road to personal enlightenment, where the individual's personal interests are given the highest priority.
Which - again - from a certain view would seem to the way to go. If you want to truly disengage from all accepted moral and ethical influences and reinvent the world to your own making, a Setian energized religion would suit you well.
It's a little scarey though, even without the horns and weird heads. People that invoke those kinds of gods and pursue that train of thought are better left alone and to their own devices, IMO.
The bible's big generic message is IMO "good will win out over bad". And good is clearly choosing God, the creator, the Father of Jesus Christ, and doing our best to emulate that Son, Jesus Christ. He laid clear the way, truth and the light of how to conduct our lives. With Jesus, the physical activities of Satan were controllable and dealt with. In Jesus's world, Satan went about his business and Jesus His. In the end what was achieved wasn't what Satan probably thought at that time.
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The Bard Child
I have a theory, that the Church need a physical image of Satan, so they grab-bagged different Pagan deities, including Set and Some sort of Ram-fertility god, heck maybe even Pan? I've always invisioned, "Satan" to be attractive to fool and decive humans. After all it's so easy to believe pretty words from a pretty face.
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T-Bone
Great post, Socks!...In my opinion TWI is not the only group that seem a little too fascinated with the world of demons – maybe even to the point of being more focused and concerned about their power instead of - - - whoa, whoa, whoa - - back up a minute! Bet you thought I was going to say "instead of God's power available to them." Well, I would have in my TWI daze…When my TWIt-brain perceived life as a constant spiritual battle – always on the lookout for devil spirits behind a tree or behind someone who disagreed with my precious TWI-doctrine. Yeah – I was a Rambo for god [that's right small "g" for TWI's god-in-a-bottle…all yah do is rub the holy book PFAL three times and he comes out] – out there on the front lines – looking for something to cast out, identify or sending 'em running away scared at Rambo with all nine all the time…Great stuff for building false-confidence in my life – and for relieving oneself of moral responsibilities – blame it on the devil instead.
What your post made me think of – is that I "see" things a little differently now. Yes I still believe there's an invisible battle going on – spiritual warfare – both without and within [my own sinful nature]. What has changed for me is how I deal with that warfare. The moral aspects of your post hit home for me! As a soldier in the Lord's army I now think my standing orders from God are to live an upright life, morally sound…obeying God – THAT is the best preparation for the spiritual battle!
Romans 13:9-14 NIV
9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
11 And do this, understanding the present time. The hour has come for you to wake up from your slumber, because our salvation is nearer now than when we first believed. 12 The night is nearly over; the day is almost here. So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light. 13 Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in orgies and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. 14 Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
Notice in the above passage surrounded by moral directives is verse 12, "So let us put aside the deeds of darkness and put on the armor of light." That armor is available to everyone – by making good moral choices. Yah don't need no stinkin' advanced class.
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starbird
hang on a minute...hold your horses...
what was the first religion...judaism..
if you believe in god then you believe he created the earth the whole adam & eve thing.
in the very begining satan {the original serpent} was around then... before the egyptians.
other false gods came into the equation later..as a way for satan to take people away from
worshipping the only true god..look at all the different gods that egyptians had, the romans,
the greeks, the babylonians..
"for this is what jehovah has said, the creator of the heavens, he the true god, the former
of the earth and the maker of it, he the one who firmly established it, who did not create it
simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited; "i am jehovah, and besides me there
is no one else" {isaiah 45:18}
"for all the gods of the peoples are valueless gods as for jehovah, he made the heavens"
{1 chron.16:26}
starbird x x x
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