Case in point, Most everyone.....................ok, ALL the apostles of Jesus Christ suffered one way or another, even when ''moved by the holy spirit'' to write the scriptures. Just look at Paul.
I haven't been through one quarter of the suffering they went through. God didn't cause it, but He also didn't get him out of it either.
WHY?
Simon ''suffered'' when Jesus was obedient to the cross, by having to ''carry'' the cross for him.
Was that from God? It was from man, but, I believe whenever we are obedient to God, it may cause some suffering in others.
Case in point, Most everyone.....................ok, ALL the apostles of Jesus Christ suffered one way or another, even when ''moved by the holy spirit'' to write the scriptures. Just look at Paul.
I haven't been through one quarter of the suffering they went through. God didn't cause it, but He also didn't get him out of it either.
WHY?
Simon ''suffered'' when Jesus was obedient to the cross, by having to ''carry'' the cross for him.
Was that from God? It was from man, but, I believe whenever we are obedient to God, it may cause some suffering in others.
IMHO :)
why do you think by being obedient to god, it would cause suffering to others?
it may be said that "suffering causes the universe"
or even that "suffering causes God"
and to the depths and degrees we flee or avoid or otherwise reject this primal kind of truth (the everpresent and constant nature of suffering)
...we will look at the "flames of God" and call them the "flames of hell"...as if it was full of demons and devils
we will constantly flee transformation and change (though these things are quite inescapable)
and the universe will seem full of injustice and evil
when in the end, the path is the same for all of us...blood red...perhaps even as beautifully brown holy crap
both Jesus and Buddha seem to agree
...to name a few
which is why the world's deeply spiritual paths were not about success, accomplishment, victory, or winning
but about humility, failure, surrender and realization of such things as the actual magnitude of our foolishness
and how lucky we are to be alive and wondering about such things at all (compared to moss or finches, for example)
like the kid and his buddies seem to say...we are not done til we are dead...so why wait for the body to die to get it over with?
if God is invisible, formless and everywhere (as opposed to a human persona)
then this God is the clear wide open "nothing" which allows everything...which is quite perfect and existed prior to the big bang (as scriptures say)
which is terrible and awesome...as scripture also seems to say..and a bitter-sweet pill to swallow (let alone seek any sort of radical unity with such a notion of an almighty everpresent God)
i dunno tho
i'm just an imp, mostly
and nothing i say is the same as the truth of the matter
though i worry whether i should say such things at all
thank God for endless mystery, i guess...or we would actually have to "know that we know that we know"...which would probably suck
If God knew that his actions before Genisis 1:1 were going to cause so much suffering, is he responsible for it?
If I leave the doors under the sink unlocked, where all the cleaning fluids are kept, and my toddler gets in there and drinks it, am I responsible?
We are to grow up to Christ as the standard, not stay babys, learn who God is , learn to trust and obey and worship him.
growing and changing and listening is the major theme in the bible , and yes i think we suffer because we are sinners, not because God our creator wishes we would .
we suffer because we make errors in our learning , we suffer because this is only a temporary place to be and until Jesus christ destroys deathetc the plan is a kingdom in the future not now.
the bible is one bloody choas book of suffering untill it is all said and done then the promise is a better place without suffering.
(IMO)......GOd is just. God gave freedom of will to chose. If you choose to leave your cabinets open, that's your choice. I don't think God hurts people, but I think people hurt themselves...many times, too, in the name of God.
IMO............. it's a spiritual battle so you can't look at it in the physical. It's two powers that fight and people are the pawn. I don't think God hurts anyone but when they turn their back they reap the consiquences. There's only so much HE can do.
I think He gave them freewill to chose in everything. Adam and Eve had a choice...and they chose. We always have a choice and choose. If it blows up in our face it's not HIS fault, it's ours.
If you own a dog that becomes rabid you have the tell-tail signs. Why would you let it out the door??? Rabid dogs show signs that are very apparent. The dog would probably bite you before you ever let it out.
God didnt leave the bottles there some stupid human did .
why does it have to be Gods doing when it is often mans own choice to do what they do and suffer for it?
It's an analogy. It's certainly not exact since the relative wisdom and inisght of an adult to a toddler is far exceeded by God to an adult. But it works well.
Let's expand it to include the devil.
Assume I have my house in order, well protected for a toddler. But not only do I have a toddler in the house, I also have an unruly teenager. I'm very upset at this teenage because he will not obey me, wants to do things his way. I order him to clean the kitchen floor. He goes to the sink cabinet, opens it up, then says, "screw you! I'm not doing it. I'm doing what I want to do, which is anything that will upset you!" He thens goes off and opens the medicine cabinet, the stairs to the basement, removes the child protectors on all the wall plugs.
Twenty minutes later, my toddler comes along. I know what's going to happen, but don't do anything. Am I responsible?
(IMO)......GOd is just. God gave freedom of will to chose. If you choose to leave your cabinets open, that's your choice. I don't think God hurts people, but I think people hurt themselves...many times, too, in the name of God.
IMO............. it's a spiritual battle so you can't look at it in the physical. It's two powers that fight and people are the pawn. I don't think God hurts anyone but when they turn their back they reap the consiquences. There's only so much HE can do.
I think He gave them freewill to chose in everything. Adam and Eve had a choice...and they chose. We always have a choice and choose. If it blows up in our face it's not HIS fault, it's ours.
Omniscience is even more problematic when it comes to freewill.
If the outcome of all my decisions is already known by someone else, do I have freewill? Or is it an illusion?
If I make a slot machine and instead of making the results of its spinning random I pre-program the outcome of all spins. I know that it will hit the jackpot on spin 832,193. In fact, I know what every spin will be. This makes me omniscience in regards to the slot machine. I place the slot machine in a local casino.
Someone playing the machine does not know the outcome of any spin until the spin actually occurs. It may appear to the person that every spin is random, that they can affect the random number generator in it by altering the times between their spins. But no matter what the person playing the game does, every spin of the wheels will produce exactly what was programed into the machine and the machine will pay out on spin 832,193. What appears to be random is an illusion.
If the result of all our decisions is already known by someone else, then freewill has to be an illusion. There is nothing we can do to alter what is already known by the omniscience God.
If you own a dog that becomes rabid you have the tell-tail signs. Why would you let it out the door??? Rabid dogs show signs that are very apparent. The dog would probably bite you before you ever let it out.
Good point. I think it was meant as an analogy, with God being the owner of the rabid dog, a.k.a the devil. So why didn't he see the signs?
God does protect us! At least He has me several times!
I do not believe God is a Father who forces His will on anyone. and I do believe this is a real time life not some fantasy life we are playing out in a scripted play already known of God.
Jesus Asked the father to have his cup removed , Jesus was TEMPTED to make other choices on the cliff by satan.
We have a choice.
my God is not a dictator, He does indeeed know what the out come will be if we do not supervise our baby, even tho we may know the circumstance and really the danger we may allow that circumstance to happen and NOT protect them. YES it would be your responsibility to protect the baby even with "a teen in the house".
as it is God to us but we are NOT babies we are to grow up in wisdom we are to learn the ways of the LORD we are to be accountable to God for what we do and do not do. WE are to OBEY!!! and if we do not somone can get hurt, how is that Gods problem when He is trying and trying to get us all to a kingdom where the problem (satan) is not an issue.
your teen refused to be accountable and obey your loving guidance and the safety of the baby , God does not fail to see danger or protect us from it uness we Chose it, the teen put your baby in danger and you did indeed fail to protect him from the danger, by not holding the teen accoutable to obey YOU!!!
God doesnt fail ever. but people fail to obey him and get hurt or in situations and blame him all the time.
God knows what choices we may have but NOT what we will chose to do in any given circumstance, and the plot thickens and changes with an adversary constantly twisting and turning the plan into something that will kill steal and destroy Gods creation, Jesus is on the job and able to tell us what to do because he knows how we are feeling what we are going through with the temptations and sin, we need to seek His will to really survive everyday from a enemy who does want us to get hurt.
if we listen to the source that will hurt us , just like the teen you couldnt control , our Father can only do what He can to teach us and love us He will never force us.
I have to ask: Are you here to discuss things or to preach and pass judgement on folks? Are you interested in learning and, possibly considering what others think?
Have you read our introduction threads at the top of the page? If not, I highly recommend it.
God knows what choices we may have but NOT what we will chose to do in any given circumstance, and the plot thickens and changes with an adversary constantly twisting and turning the plan into something that will kill steal and destroy Gods creation,
...
Then God is not omniscient. If he does not know what we will choose, then he is not all knowing.
right. depends on how you define the word. He gave man free will to chose whom men will serve.
God does not know sin nor does he perform evil in any sense of the word. yet his enemy does.
He is love. the other guy is not. the choice is for the worshipers to decide in any given moment in time, both are players in the field of life.
that is why we needed a Saviour Jesus Christ . who knows what it is to be human and can and does help us and comfort us in the process of worship and obedience, and it is by learning Gods will for our life, the obedience of His ways and manner and rules.
that is for today things will change as the promise of the kingdom comes to be the situation will change and at the end of the story line God is given the ruler of all once again by Jesus Christ but not UNTILLL Jesus Christ has his work done and destroys the choice of death for all.
responsibility for safety for a baby would be the one who has the responsibility to protect them.
God protects us , over and over . how a parent decides to protect his own child would be up to their choices.
babies die, why we have death is a whole different concept.
the bible clearly states death is NOT defeated yet. We are mortal humans.
but the comfort is a small child not capable of chosing Jesus as Lord will be in the kingdom if his/her parents pray and believe on the LORD, for him/her.
God Wishes and desires and Wants his creation to call upon in and worship him! sadly many do not and rely on other sources for rescue and help, and yet when it goes in a direction that hurts them they blame the very God who gave His ony Son who ever truly listened and worshipped and obeyed HIM to us for help!
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bliss
Cause, no.
Allow, Yes.
Case in point, Most everyone.....................ok, ALL the apostles of Jesus Christ suffered one way or another, even when ''moved by the holy spirit'' to write the scriptures. Just look at Paul.
I haven't been through one quarter of the suffering they went through. God didn't cause it, but He also didn't get him out of it either.
WHY?
Simon ''suffered'' when Jesus was obedient to the cross, by having to ''carry'' the cross for him.
Was that from God? It was from man, but, I believe whenever we are obedient to God, it may cause some suffering in others.
IMHO :)
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starbird
why do you think by being obedient to god, it would cause suffering to others?
starbirdxx
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sirguessalot
it may be said that "suffering causes the universe"
or even that "suffering causes God"
and to the depths and degrees we flee or avoid or otherwise reject this primal kind of truth (the everpresent and constant nature of suffering)
...we will look at the "flames of God" and call them the "flames of hell"...as if it was full of demons and devils
we will constantly flee transformation and change (though these things are quite inescapable)
and the universe will seem full of injustice and evil
when in the end, the path is the same for all of us...blood red...perhaps even as beautifully brown holy crap
both Jesus and Buddha seem to agree
...to name a few
which is why the world's deeply spiritual paths were not about success, accomplishment, victory, or winning
but about humility, failure, surrender and realization of such things as the actual magnitude of our foolishness
and how lucky we are to be alive and wondering about such things at all (compared to moss or finches, for example)
like the kid and his buddies seem to say...we are not done til we are dead...so why wait for the body to die to get it over with?
if God is invisible, formless and everywhere (as opposed to a human persona)
then this God is the clear wide open "nothing" which allows everything...which is quite perfect and existed prior to the big bang (as scriptures say)
which is terrible and awesome...as scripture also seems to say..and a bitter-sweet pill to swallow (let alone seek any sort of radical unity with such a notion of an almighty everpresent God)
i dunno tho
i'm just an imp, mostly
and nothing i say is the same as the truth of the matter
though i worry whether i should say such things at all
thank God for endless mystery, i guess...or we would actually have to "know that we know that we know"...which would probably suck
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Ham
I dunno.. everybody on the planet will "suffer" at least once in their life..
I think suffering is part of the agreement we made..
You can't really appreciate joy without sadness..
I've had my share of both.
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GT
There is that little problem of omniscience.
If God knew that his actions before Genisis 1:1 were going to cause so much suffering, is he responsible for it?
If I leave the doors under the sink unlocked, where all the cleaning fluids are kept, and my toddler gets in there and drinks it, am I responsible?
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pond
We are to grow up to Christ as the standard, not stay babys, learn who God is , learn to trust and obey and worship him.
growing and changing and listening is the major theme in the bible , and yes i think we suffer because we are sinners, not because God our creator wishes we would .
we suffer because we make errors in our learning , we suffer because this is only a temporary place to be and until Jesus christ destroys deathetc the plan is a kingdom in the future not now.
the bible is one bloody choas book of suffering untill it is all said and done then the promise is a better place without suffering.
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GT
So we have to learn not to drink the liquid stuff in the bottles under the sink that God left there unlocked?
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pond
no one has to do anything.
if you drink it you may suffer.
what does God have to do with that ?
if your speaking of ignorance God indeed asks us not to be about matters etc..so it reads as tho wisdom is a good thing and would help .
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starbird
good question...
my original post on this subject explains about who is to blame..
its that question that people ask.."why didnt god destroy satan staight away..
and start again..
his soveriegnty had been questioned. satan suggested that people would only follow
god if there was something in it for them..
so god had to let it run to prove if you like that people would choose to follow him
{choice}
satan knows that in the end god wins.
any suffering people have endured will be rewarded.
"but he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved" {matthew.24:13}
starbirdxx
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pond
God didnt leave the bottles there some stupid human did .
why does it have to be Gods doing when it is often mans own choice to do what they do and suffer for it?
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Ham
I dunno.. but I think the question "does god cause suffering" is pretty profound.
I have answers, for myself.
I don't know if I'd post them here, some people think I'm nutso as it is..
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Free Soul
GreasyTech, you're asking the same question I keep asking.
If I own a dog & he becomes rabid, & I let him out the front door anyway where he bites & hurts, even kills, my neighbors.....I am responsible.
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sogwap51
(IMO)......GOd is just. God gave freedom of will to chose. If you choose to leave your cabinets open, that's your choice. I don't think God hurts people, but I think people hurt themselves...many times, too, in the name of God.
IMO............. it's a spiritual battle so you can't look at it in the physical. It's two powers that fight and people are the pawn. I don't think God hurts anyone but when they turn their back they reap the consiquences. There's only so much HE can do.
I think He gave them freewill to chose in everything. Adam and Eve had a choice...and they chose. We always have a choice and choose. If it blows up in our face it's not HIS fault, it's ours.
If you own a dog that becomes rabid you have the tell-tail signs. Why would you let it out the door??? Rabid dogs show signs that are very apparent. The dog would probably bite you before you ever let it out.
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DrtyDzn
Jerry
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GT
It's an analogy. It's certainly not exact since the relative wisdom and inisght of an adult to a toddler is far exceeded by God to an adult. But it works well.
Let's expand it to include the devil.
Assume I have my house in order, well protected for a toddler. But not only do I have a toddler in the house, I also have an unruly teenager. I'm very upset at this teenage because he will not obey me, wants to do things his way. I order him to clean the kitchen floor. He goes to the sink cabinet, opens it up, then says, "screw you! I'm not doing it. I'm doing what I want to do, which is anything that will upset you!" He thens goes off and opens the medicine cabinet, the stairs to the basement, removes the child protectors on all the wall plugs.
Twenty minutes later, my toddler comes along. I know what's going to happen, but don't do anything. Am I responsible?
Omniscience is even more problematic when it comes to freewill.
If the outcome of all my decisions is already known by someone else, do I have freewill? Or is it an illusion?
If I make a slot machine and instead of making the results of its spinning random I pre-program the outcome of all spins. I know that it will hit the jackpot on spin 832,193. In fact, I know what every spin will be. This makes me omniscience in regards to the slot machine. I place the slot machine in a local casino.
Someone playing the machine does not know the outcome of any spin until the spin actually occurs. It may appear to the person that every spin is random, that they can affect the random number generator in it by altering the times between their spins. But no matter what the person playing the game does, every spin of the wheels will produce exactly what was programed into the machine and the machine will pay out on spin 832,193. What appears to be random is an illusion.
If the result of all our decisions is already known by someone else, then freewill has to be an illusion. There is nothing we can do to alter what is already known by the omniscience God.
Good point. I think it was meant as an analogy, with God being the owner of the rabid dog, a.k.a the devil. So why didn't he see the signs?
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starbird
the bible is the word of god in it there are outlined guides for us to follow.
even hygiene.
its not my opinion, its gods. thats all there is to it.
"i jehovah, am your god, the one teaching you to benefit yourself, the one causing you
to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would pay attention to my commanments!
then your peace would become just like a river and your righteousness like the waves of the sea"
{isaiah.48:17,18}
"all scripture is inspired of god and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight
for disciplining in righteousness" {2 timothy.3:16}
"trust in jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. in all your ways
take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths staight" {proverbs.3:5,6}
i stand by my original post.
starbird x x x
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pond
God does protect us! At least He has me several times!
I do not believe God is a Father who forces His will on anyone. and I do believe this is a real time life not some fantasy life we are playing out in a scripted play already known of God.
Jesus Asked the father to have his cup removed , Jesus was TEMPTED to make other choices on the cliff by satan.
We have a choice.
my God is not a dictator, He does indeeed know what the out come will be if we do not supervise our baby, even tho we may know the circumstance and really the danger we may allow that circumstance to happen and NOT protect them. YES it would be your responsibility to protect the baby even with "a teen in the house".
as it is God to us but we are NOT babies we are to grow up in wisdom we are to learn the ways of the LORD we are to be accountable to God for what we do and do not do. WE are to OBEY!!! and if we do not somone can get hurt, how is that Gods problem when He is trying and trying to get us all to a kingdom where the problem (satan) is not an issue.
your teen refused to be accountable and obey your loving guidance and the safety of the baby , God does not fail to see danger or protect us from it uness we Chose it, the teen put your baby in danger and you did indeed fail to protect him from the danger, by not holding the teen accoutable to obey YOU!!!
God doesnt fail ever. but people fail to obey him and get hurt or in situations and blame him all the time.
God knows what choices we may have but NOT what we will chose to do in any given circumstance, and the plot thickens and changes with an adversary constantly twisting and turning the plan into something that will kill steal and destroy Gods creation, Jesus is on the job and able to tell us what to do because he knows how we are feeling what we are going through with the temptations and sin, we need to seek His will to really survive everyday from a enemy who does want us to get hurt.
if we listen to the source that will hurt us , just like the teen you couldnt control , our Father can only do what He can to teach us and love us He will never force us.
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Belle
Welcome, Starbird.
I have to ask: Are you here to discuss things or to preach and pass judgement on folks? Are you interested in learning and, possibly considering what others think?
Have you read our introduction threads at the top of the page? If not, I highly recommend it.
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GT
Then God is not omniscient. If he does not know what we will choose, then he is not all knowing.
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starbird
hi belle and thanks:
im not here to pass judgement on anyone i'm not worthy to pass judgement.
i've already learnt what i need to learn. from the bible.
i am here to dicuss, thats what we're doing now isnt it?
as i've already said its not my opinion i'm giving, its gods, everything i say can be found
in the bible.
difference in opinion is what makes these boards interesting. therefore a disscusion starts.
religion is an interest of mine, but not my only interest.
love starbird x x x
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Belle
Starbird, do you think the Bible is the only place God recorded his will? Do you think the Bible is inerrant?
How about the deaths of innocent children? Is God responsible for that? Isn't he responsible for protecting them?
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Ductape
HeHe, I was wondering how long a moderator could participate in a discussion in the wrong “place”.
At what point does the drinking of poisons under the sink become the drinker’s responsibility and no longer the parents?
Forgive me if this has been answered, frozen puter and moderator movement have slowed an already slow poster………..
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pond
right. depends on how you define the word. He gave man free will to chose whom men will serve.
God does not know sin nor does he perform evil in any sense of the word. yet his enemy does.
He is love. the other guy is not. the choice is for the worshipers to decide in any given moment in time, both are players in the field of life.
that is why we needed a Saviour Jesus Christ . who knows what it is to be human and can and does help us and comfort us in the process of worship and obedience, and it is by learning Gods will for our life, the obedience of His ways and manner and rules.
that is for today things will change as the promise of the kingdom comes to be the situation will change and at the end of the story line God is given the ruler of all once again by Jesus Christ but not UNTILLL Jesus Christ has his work done and destroys the choice of death for all.
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pond
I pray for my children.
responsibility for safety for a baby would be the one who has the responsibility to protect them.
God protects us , over and over . how a parent decides to protect his own child would be up to their choices.
babies die, why we have death is a whole different concept.
the bible clearly states death is NOT defeated yet. We are mortal humans.
but the comfort is a small child not capable of chosing Jesus as Lord will be in the kingdom if his/her parents pray and believe on the LORD, for him/her.
God Wishes and desires and Wants his creation to call upon in and worship him! sadly many do not and rely on other sources for rescue and help, and yet when it goes in a direction that hurts them they blame the very God who gave His ony Son who ever truly listened and worshipped and obeyed HIM to us for help!
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