I started to read an article from CES soon after 9/11 stating more died each year from drunk drivers than were killed in that attack. Didn't finish it and was reminded why I didn't follow the idiots when they ripped a big chunk of VP's work off and left.
one of my children just got into a car accident , totaled the car baby was frightened and bumped mom is still in pain and they have no way to get to work and babysitter etc. insurance company is messing around taking time helping them.
this was a crisis and do you know what she said to me today on the phone?
we will take one day at a time everything we need is right here, meaning they are all safe and together .
youknow Im convinced the leader in ces and stf are thriving on drama .
it isnt a crisies people hate the people they work with every single day, people get fired every day and divorced but somhow because they are linked to twi again
this must be special and earth shaking news that will shake the universe.
give me a break . my thirty pound cat thinks when his dish has less than three kibbles in it is a crisis to, they have no idea what REAL life is like.
That is why when I first posted this, I named the thread: CES is in a Mess. Of course it is a crisis for Mark who may have to wash windows again. And it is a crisis for the people named in the defamation of character lawsuits. These would be definition number 2 or 3 below.
But for CES as a group, it is a crisis using definition number 1.
Here are some definitions from dictionary.com:
1. a stage in a sequence of events at which the trend of all future events, esp. for better or for worse, is determined; turning point.
2. a condition of instability or danger, as in social, economic, political, or international affairs, leading to a decisive change.
3. a dramatic emotional or circumstantial upheaval in a person's life.
4. Medicine/Medical. a. the point in the course of a serious disease at which a decisive change occurs, leading either to recovery or to death.
b. the change itself.
5. the point in a play or story at which hostile elements are most tensely opposed to each other.
–adjective
6. of, referring to, or for use in dealing with a crisis.
I know what you're saying and on one hand I agree. But on the other hand, I have to say this:
If all this stuff had been kept hush-hush, we'd probably be complaining about a cover-up. Since it was brought out into the open by Cap'n Crunch and others, we're calling the players in this drama queens. GS is a tough room. :D
I don't feel sorry for the JALs and the MGs and the JSs involved in this mess. They've had more than their 15 minutes of fame and it's up to each of them to "get right with God" for some of the goofy paths they've led people down.
I do remember, though, how hurt I was when I realized that twi, which I'd devoted a lot of heart and time to, was crashing and burning. So I feel bad for the people who jumped off the twi bandwagon and onto the CES bandwagon. To those people I say, never forget that your relationship with God isn't dependent on any man or any organization. If you will give yourself half a chance, you'll see how fantastic life can be on the other side of this mess.
Oh, and PS. I don't care who is named president. If it's anyone who had one iota to do with momentus and the personal prophecy fiasco, even if only to stand by and let them happen, it's time for you people to move on and leave CES/STF behind.
I do remember, though, how hurt I was when I realized that twi, which I'd devoted a lot of heart and time to, was crashing and burning. So I feel bad for the people who jumped off the twi bandwagon and onto the CES bandwagon. To those people I say, never forget that your relationship with God isn't dependent on any man or any organization. If you will give yourself half a chance, you'll see how fantastic life can be on the other side of this mess.
I also feel bad for CES/STFI supporters who are finding out, once again, how full of "clay" the feet of men can be.
I especially feel bad for those who had to come to Greasespot to find out what was happening with their "leadership" instead of hearing it first from the principals in that organization. Nothing wrong with Greasespot Cafe, but you should have heard it first from them.
I echo Linda's sentiments. Life can be wonderful without someone else telling you what you must believe.
Since it was brought out into the open by Cap'n Crunch and others, we're calling the players in this drama queens. GS is a tough room. :D
True, that was maybe not called for on the crisis issue, but the high drama in calling people into a room and revealing a dream about them being possessed, and whatever else seems a little drama queen like. So much seemed to center around their fantasy world. Even when the outsiders were unaware, the inner sanctum seemed embroiled in their visions and sense of self importance. It seemed there was such hubub for CES to decide if jal should marry elizabeth ... like some sort of coronation ... just my sense from the little I've read here.
Of course we know in twi daze it was only our believing that prevented all kinds of international crises ... all praise the MOGFAT. I'll stick with the drama queen label, but agree they probably would have preferred to keep all this hidden.
And yes, life is much better when you step outside that cloud of religious suppression, or whatever it was.
really those still hanging on to this stuff since twi years because of these leaders and the attraction to that...well they wont leave now either.
they will just hate grease spot consider us gossip and liars, and now have PROOF STF is from the real God because of the persecution!
honestly some of these people are not going to think this is anything of their business, or will find enough warm fuzzys from the men talking to them about "what happened" they will just ignore any other source of information and consider it worthless and not godly.
I can tell you why some in my family and others I know went right from one twi offshoot to the next, and then again - because the doctrine that the trinity is 'demon inspired' and anyone who believes it is 'demonized' prevented them from ever stepping foot in a church. And when I went to church it generally ENDED most communication they'd have with me including my family.
Your experience may differ, but the few people I've seen actually make it to 'regular church' (which has totally blessed them) took a long time to get there and I believe God doing a MIGHTY work to remove the BS from their heart. Not just 'right doctrine' arrogance but a lot of fear.
That's why people that I know and meet in splinters have really in earnest tried to make them into a 'normal' church but with a unitarian view. They have a hard time singing 'blessed trinity' during worship and having people in church tell them they're not saved. My experience is that I've not had any problem sharing my views in 'normal' church - first, I've changed a lot of my views, second, many of the differences rarely come up because (like most twi doctrine) it's really got very little practical day-to-day application, and when it has come up at all most people shrug and say, 'that's different' and that's the end of it. But I think frankly some people are AFRAID to try a regular church because they've become convinced they will be attacked as cult members and harassed for their view of Jesus.
I think it's great that GS exists even just to prove its tagline (we left and we're not only alive, but blessed and prosperous) and maybe it's good that half the posts towards CES'rs have been 'sorry to hear that' while the other half have been 'you deserved what you got, see if LCM is still available to take over.' Maybe people need their cages rattled to that extent - who knows.
Were if not for the anonymity aspect, I think it would be great to have a post listing churches you are involved in where you have seen personally that people will be loved and accepted *even if they are open about their beliefs*.
If this already exists somewhere it might really help people. I talked to one young friend in another state for SIX MONTHS before he was comfortable TRYING a local church where he didn't know anyone and didn't want to lie to people about what he believed. He was afraid of exactly what you think he'd be; trinity, slain in the spirit, singing worship songs that he didn't agree with, getting harassed because of his beliefs - he grew up *completely* in twi and offshoots his *entire life*. He's barely 23 so you can't really razz him about how he's hanging on to the way days - he's a next gen legacy of the way imploding and there are a LOT like him that grew up in families still trying to recover their lives. There are hundreds of active youth still in CES.
He has started going to a local church (finally) but then his car broke down. He's now getting a ride with a neighbor who happens to go there - but maybe you get my point - he probably would have gone 6 months ago if he knew there was someone in his area that he trusted even a little that said, 'hey come with me, this church is cool.'
The call from 'therebutforgrace' and others for *prayer* for the people dealing with this is real - real lives at stake and an opportunity for real chains to get broken.
I understand how people can think that and I can know it is also idol worship to think Jesus was kicked off the throne because some woman decides to cat fight with another and the men who love them freak out on the whole AFFAIR!!!
it is hysterical business fold every single day and no one bats an eye yet becuase these guys peed and the wind caught them in the face everyone is sad?
the one glaring thing i remember from the heart ach and it was awful for me as well , when twi shook me to the core was
GOD PROVIDED!
this has held me for the duration .
sure as crap men will sin and God is God .
is this such a bad lesson?
twenty years later and loving Jesus the way I do no it has been the best lesson of all .
their lesson your so used to arriving in the mail or the conference you plan on attending are NOTHING but what you make them out to be.
no magic in them , no special annoiting or gift ministry, we need jesus christ and we need to PRAY to God to reveal HIS own will not that of whator whom we grew to be comfortable with.
Jesus never had one group he said was his He died for ALL, how much folks limit God when we think the spirit of God is so small it must be stuck inside the twi or ces or some other spin off box.
truly that thinking is fear and far removed from trusting God as the one who saves us.
yeah and as i was telling exin a pm , this has been coming on for awhile God has been gently telling me for some time these guys are selfish and kind of mean and self serving.
on one tape Mark said if you life isnt where you want it to be it is because "maybe you didnt organize it enough"
i had a broken foot, lost my job ,bills were mounting up and no way to go get a drink of water unless i crawled and NOW they say my life isnt organized enough. must be why things really really sucked for me!
i believed them too.
i cried i really cried i was loking for some hope and found the reality that he thought it was because i wasnt orgainized.
nope still not orgainized but "God is seeing me more and more everyday in spite of it all .
that tape stuck with me for a long time as a ear mark of what the hell he would say off the wall , and just plain hurtful and i paid for them!!!!
Exsie, I was relieved too. No more freakin' meetings! No more "leaders" butting into people's lives. Yeehaw. But at the same time, I felt like the legalistic a$$holes had stolen away a ministry that I considered just as much mine as theirs. Lots of mixed feelings were running through me at that time, just as I imagine they are in people involved in this current drama.
Pond, I'm so sorry you had to hear that crap when at such a low point in your life. I'm glad you cut your ties with them!
Now that I'm clear on the whole "good-bad" thing, I feel more comfortable these days crossing the streams of a Nuclear Accelerator, which, when properly strapped to the back is somewhat heavier but still more comfortable than a 2 year old and less wiggly. But not nearly as cute! I'll take a couple 2 year olds in action any day.
When it comes to cockaroachces though, you get these big ones and ya gotta pack heavy. Cornered, they'll get ugly. Bite your head off.
Linda Z, as always you make a good point. Somewhere between Excanasta and yours's posts I rest, probably much the same as others.
I really don't see any of the Big Ticket Line Items of Life/Form 220 being served by the CES events of late (World Peace, Global Warming, Health Care Availability, a really decent Pinot Noir for under 15 bucks a bottle).
Still, it's a relief in some ways that progress has been made - that those involved and concerned have made choices to distribute information and blow the cap on what reads like a long standing and developing list of concerns and issues. Instead of getting better, it got worse for those involved, so, here it is.
Exsie, I was relieved too. No more freakin' meetings! No more "leaders" butting into people's lives. Yeehaw. But at the same time, I felt like the legalistic a$$holes had stolen away a ministry that I considered just as much mine as theirs. Lots of mixed feelings were running through me at that time, just as I imagine they are in people involved in this current drama.
i agree with most of what you said although i never felt like it was "my" ministry.
my relief was mostly because i could finally just breathe and realize so much of what i was caught up in was OVER. so many years of guilt and trying to figure out why the great MOG should have his way with me. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
Recommended Posts
Ductape
I started to read an article from CES soon after 9/11 stating more died each year from drunk drivers than were killed in that attack. Didn't finish it and was reminded why I didn't follow the idiots when they ripped a big chunk of VP's work off and left.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
how DARE they minimalize 9/11
what frikkin basturds
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
one of my children just got into a car accident , totaled the car baby was frightened and bumped mom is still in pain and they have no way to get to work and babysitter etc. insurance company is messing around taking time helping them.
this was a crisis and do you know what she said to me today on the phone?
we will take one day at a time everything we need is right here, meaning they are all safe and together .
youknow Im convinced the leader in ces and stf are thriving on drama .
it isnt a crisies people hate the people they work with every single day, people get fired every day and divorced but somhow because they are linked to twi again
this must be special and earth shaking news that will shake the universe.
give me a break . my thirty pound cat thinks when his dish has less than three kibbles in it is a crisis to, they have no idea what REAL life is like.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Captain Crunch
That is why when I first posted this, I named the thread: CES is in a Mess. Of course it is a crisis for Mark who may have to wash windows again. And it is a crisis for the people named in the defamation of character lawsuits. These would be definition number 2 or 3 below.
But for CES as a group, it is a crisis using definition number 1.
Here are some definitions from dictionary.com:
1. a stage in a sequence of events at which the trend of all future events, esp. for better or for worse, is determined; turning point.
2. a condition of instability or danger, as in social, economic, political, or international affairs, leading to a decisive change.
3. a dramatic emotional or circumstantial upheaval in a person's life.
4. Medicine/Medical. a. the point in the course of a serious disease at which a decisive change occurs, leading either to recovery or to death.
b. the change itself.
5. the point in a play or story at which hostile elements are most tensely opposed to each other.
–adjective
6. of, referring to, or for use in dealing with a crisis.
CC
Edited by Captain CrunchLink to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
good point excie ... these drama queens are full of themselves
the world is coming to an end, trouble in the nexus, there is only one remedy
buy my book ...
how lame is that?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies. Rivers and seas boiling.
Forty years of darkness. Earthquakes, volcanoes...
The dead rising from the grave.
Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ductape
Dr Venkman, what can we do?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Exsie, Socks, Pond, everyone...
I know what you're saying and on one hand I agree. But on the other hand, I have to say this:
If all this stuff had been kept hush-hush, we'd probably be complaining about a cover-up. Since it was brought out into the open by Cap'n Crunch and others, we're calling the players in this drama queens. GS is a tough room. :D
I don't feel sorry for the JALs and the MGs and the JSs involved in this mess. They've had more than their 15 minutes of fame and it's up to each of them to "get right with God" for some of the goofy paths they've led people down.
I do remember, though, how hurt I was when I realized that twi, which I'd devoted a lot of heart and time to, was crashing and burning. So I feel bad for the people who jumped off the twi bandwagon and onto the CES bandwagon. To those people I say, never forget that your relationship with God isn't dependent on any man or any organization. If you will give yourself half a chance, you'll see how fantastic life can be on the other side of this mess.
Oh, and PS. I don't care who is named president. If it's anyone who had one iota to do with momentus and the personal prophecy fiasco, even if only to stand by and let them happen, it's time for you people to move on and leave CES/STF behind.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Kevlar2000
I also feel bad for CES/STFI supporters who are finding out, once again, how full of "clay" the feet of men can be.
I especially feel bad for those who had to come to Greasespot to find out what was happening with their "leadership" instead of hearing it first from the principals in that organization. Nothing wrong with Greasespot Cafe, but you should have heard it first from them.
I echo Linda's sentiments. Life can be wonderful without someone else telling you what you must believe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
Of course we know in twi daze it was only our believing that prevented all kinds of international crises ... all praise the MOGFAT.
I'll stick with the drama queen label, but agree they probably would have preferred to keep all this hidden.
And yes, life is much better when you step outside that cloud of religious suppression, or whatever it was.
Edited by rhinoLink to comment
Share on other sites
pond
really those still hanging on to this stuff since twi years because of these leaders and the attraction to that...well they wont leave now either.
they will just hate grease spot consider us gossip and liars, and now have PROOF STF is from the real God because of the persecution!
honestly some of these people are not going to think this is anything of their business, or will find enough warm fuzzys from the men talking to them about "what happened" they will just ignore any other source of information and consider it worthless and not godly.
and keep on doing what is comfortable for them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
1broken1
I can tell you why some in my family and others I know went right from one twi offshoot to the next, and then again - because the doctrine that the trinity is 'demon inspired' and anyone who believes it is 'demonized' prevented them from ever stepping foot in a church. And when I went to church it generally ENDED most communication they'd have with me including my family.
Your experience may differ, but the few people I've seen actually make it to 'regular church' (which has totally blessed them) took a long time to get there and I believe God doing a MIGHTY work to remove the BS from their heart. Not just 'right doctrine' arrogance but a lot of fear.
That's why people that I know and meet in splinters have really in earnest tried to make them into a 'normal' church but with a unitarian view. They have a hard time singing 'blessed trinity' during worship and having people in church tell them they're not saved. My experience is that I've not had any problem sharing my views in 'normal' church - first, I've changed a lot of my views, second, many of the differences rarely come up because (like most twi doctrine) it's really got very little practical day-to-day application, and when it has come up at all most people shrug and say, 'that's different' and that's the end of it. But I think frankly some people are AFRAID to try a regular church because they've become convinced they will be attacked as cult members and harassed for their view of Jesus.
I think it's great that GS exists even just to prove its tagline (we left and we're not only alive, but blessed and prosperous) and maybe it's good that half the posts towards CES'rs have been 'sorry to hear that' while the other half have been 'you deserved what you got, see if LCM is still available to take over.' Maybe people need their cages rattled to that extent - who knows.
Were if not for the anonymity aspect, I think it would be great to have a post listing churches you are involved in where you have seen personally that people will be loved and accepted *even if they are open about their beliefs*.
If this already exists somewhere it might really help people. I talked to one young friend in another state for SIX MONTHS before he was comfortable TRYING a local church where he didn't know anyone and didn't want to lie to people about what he believed. He was afraid of exactly what you think he'd be; trinity, slain in the spirit, singing worship songs that he didn't agree with, getting harassed because of his beliefs - he grew up *completely* in twi and offshoots his *entire life*. He's barely 23 so you can't really razz him about how he's hanging on to the way days - he's a next gen legacy of the way imploding and there are a LOT like him that grew up in families still trying to recover their lives. There are hundreds of active youth still in CES.
He has started going to a local church (finally) but then his car broke down. He's now getting a ride with a neighbor who happens to go there - but maybe you get my point - he probably would have gone 6 months ago if he knew there was someone in his area that he trusted even a little that said, 'hey come with me, this church is cool.'
The call from 'therebutforgrace' and others for *prayer* for the people dealing with this is real - real lives at stake and an opportunity for real chains to get broken.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
polar bear
Remember VPs challenge to put away reading anything else but what he wanted you to-
I challenge you to stop reading what you are reading and stop going to the church you are going to for six months and you won't know yourself.
Maybe you'll come to a true sense of what life really can be and should be like. You can love God and live without a church.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
1broken1
I've already done that for many years thanks.
Are you saying that if I go to church I don't know what life can and should be like?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i appreciate what you are saying linzee
i guess for me now i just don't get it, with so much heartache and real things (for me) to deal with....
--
broken, how are real lives at stake ? i don't understand
and i guess if i step back in time, i think i remember how hurt i was when the way fell apart, but honestly i think i was relieved....
i don't know
also, we didn't have the internet thing happening so now that's a good thing
by the way, i did not mean to be harsh to you captain crunch
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
I understand how people can think that and I can know it is also idol worship to think Jesus was kicked off the throne because some woman decides to cat fight with another and the men who love them freak out on the whole AFFAIR!!!
it is hysterical business fold every single day and no one bats an eye yet becuase these guys peed and the wind caught them in the face everyone is sad?
the one glaring thing i remember from the heart ach and it was awful for me as well , when twi shook me to the core was
GOD PROVIDED!
this has held me for the duration .
sure as crap men will sin and God is God .
is this such a bad lesson?
twenty years later and loving Jesus the way I do no it has been the best lesson of all .
their lesson your so used to arriving in the mail or the conference you plan on attending are NOTHING but what you make them out to be.
no magic in them , no special annoiting or gift ministry, we need jesus christ and we need to PRAY to God to reveal HIS own will not that of whator whom we grew to be comfortable with.
Jesus never had one group he said was his He died for ALL, how much folks limit God when we think the spirit of God is so small it must be stuck inside the twi or ces or some other spin off box.
truly that thinking is fear and far removed from trusting God as the one who saves us.
Edited by pondLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ductape
I would like to offer my new book for a fair donation of $29.95 :wub:
Cut My Cash Cow and My Lavish Lifestyle Reaches Critical Mass
Then you'll understand the true crisis
(Oh and I do dream in color)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
yeah and as i was telling exin a pm , this has been coming on for awhile God has been gently telling me for some time these guys are selfish and kind of mean and self serving.
on one tape Mark said if you life isnt where you want it to be it is because "maybe you didnt organize it enough"
i had a broken foot, lost my job ,bills were mounting up and no way to go get a drink of water unless i crawled and NOW they say my life isnt organized enough. must be why things really really sucked for me!
i believed them too.
i cried i really cried i was loking for some hope and found the reality that he thought it was because i wasnt orgainized.
nope still not orgainized but "God is seeing me more and more everyday in spite of it all .
that tape stuck with me for a long time as a ear mark of what the hell he would say off the wall , and just plain hurtful and i paid for them!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Linda Z
Exsie, I was relieved too. No more freakin' meetings! No more "leaders" butting into people's lives. Yeehaw. But at the same time, I felt like the legalistic a$$holes had stolen away a ministry that I considered just as much mine as theirs. Lots of mixed feelings were running through me at that time, just as I imagine they are in people involved in this current drama.
Pond, I'm so sorry you had to hear that crap when at such a low point in your life. I'm glad you cut your ties with them!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Ductape, "See you on the other side."
Now that I'm clear on the whole "good-bad" thing, I feel more comfortable these days crossing the streams of a Nuclear Accelerator, which, when properly strapped to the back is somewhat heavier but still more comfortable than a 2 year old and less wiggly. But not nearly as cute! I'll take a couple 2 year olds in action any day.
When it comes to cockaroachces though, you get these big ones and ya gotta pack heavy. Cornered, they'll get ugly. Bite your head off.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Linda Z, as always you make a good point. Somewhere between Excanasta and yours's posts I rest, probably much the same as others.
I really don't see any of the Big Ticket Line Items of Life/Form 220 being served by the CES events of late (World Peace, Global Warming, Health Care Availability, a really decent Pinot Noir for under 15 bucks a bottle).
Still, it's a relief in some ways that progress has been made - that those involved and concerned have made choices to distribute information and blow the cap on what reads like a long standing and developing list of concerns and issues. Instead of getting better, it got worse for those involved, so, here it is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i agree with most of what you said although i never felt like it was "my" ministry.
my relief was mostly because i could finally just breathe and realize so much of what i was caught up in was OVER. so many years of guilt and trying to figure out why the great MOG should have his way with me. ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
ahhhhhh
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.