I was just wanting to get to the making up part with Rocky. I LOVE the making up part.
Wow... be careful, you might make me blush!
And you go do what you need to dude. I myself am going to get away and watch some TV myself but it ain't gonna be football.
Well, out here in Mountain Standard Time, it's not 9PM yet, so in a little while I'll get to watch Crossing Jordan... most of the shows I like are crime dramas with just a hint of comedy... well, Law & Order doesn't really have comedy, just smart a$$ remarks sometimes.
Anyway... all of what you described as your concerns Kathy point to socialism. The fact of the matter is that the US has a significant degree of socialism already. And rightfully so. Because laissez-faire economics (from the French, essentially meaning "leave 'em alone") with NO controls ultimately becomes severely oppressive to ALL except for the ownership class (the Ted Turners, Mark Cubans, Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Warren Buffett, etc.). Fortunately, many of those folks recognize the need for mechanisms to "level the playing field" for the average American... BUT few of them will make that happen on their own. So, even they support some socialist aspects to our society/economy.
As to WHAT CAN WE (each of us alone, and/or together) DO?
That's NOT an easy fix. BUT it IS available to learn how and get busy doing something to influence change.
That's where a citizen activist comes in. But very few activists can accomplish very much on their own.
You can find groups already begun by doing internet searches. One caveat, however, this particular area of interest brings a lot of people with a lot of passionate feelings... but it's very easy to get sidetracked without the "thoughtful" aspect of the groups of committed citizens. And in this area of concern, there's a WHOLE LOT of hate and racism. Now, there are INDEED thoughtful people who want to do the right thing(s), but the fringe elements are there and it takes experience to figure out who's got it together and who doesn't. And no one can give you their experience... so, only you can figure that out for you.
AND don't worry about needing to have make up... er, hugs, yeah that's it HUGS with me... I am not offended by anything you've had to say. :D
You described my concerns for getting involved with any group. Their passions might lead me away and no matter how zealous they could be for a cause they also bring their histories and prejudices to the table even if they try not to. It's human nature. Just like I get so hot over this and part of it is the arrogance being directed at me every time I walk across the distribution center which I do daily. I know these women speaking rudely of me in their native tongue fires me up and there is no way that isn't factored into things I think and say.
I know that the world will be somewhat the same by the time I leave it but what of the children, what will be left of this country for them? Even if I were willing to close my eyes to some of it just to get by in life.
But then I've been rightfully accused of wanting to fix things that I have no control over. It's just in this case as a citizen I feel there must be something I can do.
And that brings me back to the first paragraph again.
And aww shucks...I was really looking forward to the making up part.
Bong! That's what I missed. The quotes of the statement then the other person reply below.
One of the things that I have noticed is that the view of illegal immigration changes the further away from the border you get... For example, I live about 30 miles North of the Mexican border. My friend Rocky lives about 200 miles (give or take) from the border. (And there is no doubt that Rocky is better at artuclating his views than I can).
I tend to take a harder line against illegal immigration. I see first hand the damage caused by illegal immigration. I have seen the damage to public and private property. I have seen the tons (literaly) of trash (some contains biological waste). And have heard of emergency rooms closing because of too many patients with the inability to by the bills.
On a side note, My boss lost his mother and her new spouse when a smuggler of illegals was trying to escape authorities a couple years ago (many of the illegals being transportated were also injured and some died) in a crash In Sierra Vista, AZ. (if someone is really interested, I can look up the old newspaper articles).
I've been thinking about this today but was too busy to give it my full attention and one thing that concerns me is that I might have offended some of the posters on this forum simply because of their heritage. I want to clarify myself by saying I do not hold anything against hard working contributing members of the United States and that is not my gripe or my concern. It is with those gaining access to our governmental aids and those private benefactors with unhealthy reasons to give to one group and not all. So if I have offended by mistake or misunderstanding I hope you will accept my apology.
Having said that....
I believe that our party minded choices help keep us in some of this trouble we are most definitely in and how can that be repaired? Personally I see no answer in sight with the gap widening as the world around us deteriorates in making just decisions for their countries.
I wonder will it take those people that insist on giving America away seeing lack in their personal lives to get their attention.
I'm discouraged about this right now. Not depressed, just discouraged.
I've been reluctant to step in here because I want to make sure I can control my emotions first. I think I've got them under wraps now.
The question was asked about what is wrong with keeping US resources for US citizens.
Nothing at all, imo.
However, US resources are going to be used on non-citizens one way or another. Whether in direct giveaways or in illegal immigration prevention, the resources will be used.
I am right now involved in hammering out some legislation concerning options. I help via my church. One option that is proving to be most amenable to all involved is similar to the Immigrant Sponsor program. Briefly, the US businesses would 'adopt' immigrants and mentor them for 1-5 years, teaching them what they need to know to go home and make their native community a better place. Along with the mentoring in knowledge would be the partnering in finances...something of a loan to be repaid by the immigrant once he/she has established him/herself back in his/her native community. A sharing of resources for a time, if you will, with the goal of the immigrant going back to his/her own native community. Which is what most illegal immigrants want in the first place...from what I have experienced.
There are many other details being hammered out, but this option is putting the onus of responsibility on the businesses who hire and protect and provide questionable documents for illegal immigrants.
All of the other options presented put the onus of responsibility on the government's back either in the form of prevention or handouts.
It is very costly to have a border patrol and a military paid to handle this problem at the level it is at right now. To add to this would nearly break the bank, so to speak...and doesn't work...as is proven.
Briefly, the US businesses would 'adopt' immigrants and mentor them for 1-5 years, teaching them what they need to know to go home and make their native community a better place.
Why on earth should we as a nation be doing this????
You want to adopt and mentor someone--adopt and mentor the families in the poorer areas of this country--help them with their businesses and communities
It is really simple
IF you are an Illegal
No Food Stamps
NO housing subsidy
no "welfare" of any kind
If you are ill and end up in an emergency room your next stop is INS
If you and your significant other are illegal your child is not a United States Citizen by virtue of being born on United States soil--it has become an epidemic in the southwest of Pregnant illegals coming over the border to have babies here which are then United States Citizens
Businesses that hire illegals heavy fines and shut them down -not just the company but the CEO themselves -Illegal hiring makes you ineligible to ever have a business license again
Make it economically un-advantageous for the business and the illegals and the problem will diminish
If I sound angry it is because I am
Last night
Foreign Resident
Comes home drunk
Asked to leave
Becomes belligerent and hostile
5 staff (4 over time)
3 roommates
numerous neighbors
4 squad cars
5 police officers
3 paramedics
1 ambulance
and 2 and 1/2 hours later finally gone
has never paid a dime of rent out of his own pocket all from US govt programs, and various charities
and the problem probably still isn't resolved since the person has the avenue of complaining to the ACLU, his Embassy, our parent organization, the city, the State etc etc etc about discrimination blah blah blah
Last time we had one of these major go-arounds with a foreign national it took FIVE YEARS to finally get all the legal work , complaints etc resolved
Please read all of what I posted, particularly this part:
There are many other details being hammered out, but this option is putting the onus of responsibility on the businesses who hire and protect and provide questionable documents for illegal immigrants.
All of the other options presented put the onus of responsibility on the government's back either in the form of prevention or handouts.
Illegal immigrants are getting their jobs from US businesses. Not me. Not you. Not their country's businesses. US businesses right here in the US.
There are many major corporations in the US who pay to bring illegal immigrants over the border, have 'companies' that make 'documentation' or just plain pay under the table, house these people (sometimes as much as 30 per apartment) in squalor in the company's slums, robbing any wages as 'rent' per head at the average of $40/night, and insinuating that it would be much simpler for the company if the illegal person were to have a legal family in the US.
I can and have named several right her in KC. There are 2 in Topeka. I'm talking major corporations.
There is a minor corporation on Point McKenzie right there in Alaska that is proud to do such things. They give their workers 'sanctuary' via their church...which means they are so far untouchable when it comes to laws concerning this matter. (Note...I said "so far". There are people working to close that particular loophole.) This corporation may itself be minor, but the church under which they operate is quite major in the US.
Why shouldn't these corporations, businesses, etc. take on the onus of responsibility for their part in this problem?
Again, your interpretation is basically upside down. It is repugnicanism which ignores the needs and realities of Americans. It's just that the ones like rhino don't want to address needs of ANYONE... which is obviously a more stark version of repugnicanism.
I noticed this from Rock .. par for the course from him. A lot of name calling ...
"the ones like rhino don't want to address the needs of anyone" ... Hope, if you read this, you are fine and will be praised if you are on the left ... if you disagree with the rock, you will be chastised, called names ... he is out of control ... but he is a successful democrat, cuz eventually you get tired of his flooding every topic with his antics ... he really should be re-banned.
I showed the one study showing illegals depressed wages and put poorer Americans out of work. I was addressing the needs of those poorer democrats in the US, that now suffer competition from illegal aliens, part of the reason the real wages for the lower class has not gained anything, as Webb mentioned.
So yes, I am calling to ban the rock again... it is not worth putting up with his antics ... he has single handedly severely degraded the dialogue in the politics forum, not that it wasn't pretty bad before. His assault here has nothing to do wtih facts, he is just full of hate for any one he sees on the right.
There rocky ... thanks for the insult. You are so effin right that you can use any tactics necessary to shout everyone else down, right? I got better things to do than listen to his BS ... so go ahead and listen to him praise lame brain lefty logic, but he speaks by decree that, "I believe there is NOT a correlation between "illegals" and the high cost of health care coverage for Americans. Period." No data .. but he does use those capital letters. Then we have "Again, emphatically NO... I do NOT think cutting off foreign aid would do ANYTHING to ensure all Americans would have adequate resources." capital letters and the use of the word "emphatically". Somehow we are supposed to "respect his authority" (a la cartman) because he once wrote for some tiny lefty paper ... Good grief ...
I gotta go out and drown some puppies and clear cut some timbers ... that's what all us "repugnicans" do, ya' know?
Why shouldn't these corporations, businesses, etc. take on the onus of responsibility for their part in this problem?
Because the solution you are putting forward still makes it economically advantageous for them to do what they are doing -and you can bet your bottom dollar that the newly christened illegals will be working for less with less benefits than the company would have to pay to everyone else as an "offset " to the fact they are being "mentored" "trained" " assisted" or whatever PC euphemism will be used to disgusie the fact that they are illegals working for a US company
Renaming the Foxes sheep in no way changes the fact that the henhouse is in deep trouble
Close the business
strip the CEO's of their ability to make money off the practice t
Believe me it will only take one or TWO examples and you will find business illegal free
MONEY Talks
If fact where business is concerned it is the only thing that talks
So yes, I am calling to ban the rock again... it is not worth putting up with his antics ... he has single handedly severely degraded the dialogue in the politics forum, not that it wasn't pretty bad before. His assault here has nothing to do wtih facts, he is just full of hate for any one he sees on the right.
I gotta go out and drown some puppies and clear cut some timbers ... that's what all us "repugnicans" do, ya' know?
Gawrsh Rhino... didn't know your skin was THAT thin... that "repugnican" comment wasn't aimed at you anyway... that's what I call elected right wingers... generally speaking.
AND please don't be putting words in my mouth. Text in RED above (my emphasis of YOUR quote) is NOT from ME...
Oh, yes... I don't want to forget... Rhino... I suppose I should thank you for making this about ME? ...rather than about the topic that Hap started...
If fact where business is concerned it is the only thing that talks
Indeed... and not that it matters much at this point, but the idea of hitting businesses in the pocketbook came up in Arizona a couple years back... introduced by State Sen. Bill Brotherton D-Phoenix, in a legislature in which both the House and Senate were (and still are, btw) controlled by the Rs. Guess what happened to Mr. Brotherton's proposal. Well, IF it had been made law already, you'd have heard about it, and been able to point to it's either success or failure in addressing the problem... BUT the argument against the proposal at the time was that it would "hurt small businesses."
Now, please understand, templelady... I AGREE with you. The ONLY thing that gets the attention of the businesses is to hit them hard in the pocketbook.
Well, the idea IS gathering momentum in plenty of states and in Congress. I don't know how far the lawmakers will take it, but we should keep our ears and eyes open to try to find out.
Why should business that hires illegals be allowed to continue when we have people out of work that are legally here?
Why should we teach the world how to support their selves if they haven't done it already since the last I knew there were no new countries that cropped up out of the ocean?
Why should we lend them a dime when we have nothing in the coffer to begin with?
Why should we give education and opportunities to anyone outside of our borders until we know for a fact everyone that wants to have the same can have it here first?
Why do we find purpose in doing things that harm our own countrymen?
Why should business that hires illegals be allowed to continue when we have people out of work that are legally here?
Why should we teach the world how to support their selves if they haven't done it already since the last I knew there were no new countries that cropped up out of the ocean?
Why should we lend them a dime when we have nothing in the coffer to begin with?
Why should we give education and opportunities to anyone outside of our borders until we know for a fact everyone that wants to have the same can have it here first?
Why do we find purpose in doing things that harm our own countrymen?
Very thought provoking questions Kathy... tnks. :)
It would be WONDERFUL if the major corporations, businesses, etc. who are (imo) the biggest part of this problem would just be closed down, the CEOs fined and kicked to the curb, the assets divided among the workers who are legal and citizens, etc. I absolutely agree that this would be one part of the solution.
Looking up information concerning this subject on the 'net, I found these sites:
And there are literally millions more sites relating to this topic.
I do not vouch for, endorse or in any way support these sites, the ideas presented on these sites, or the general thinking of the sites. I haven't even perused these sites except for what I quoted above. I didn't know about these sites before this evening.
My point in doing this was to find out what I didn't know about this subject. Sad to say, in over an hour of searching I was not able to find any information that helped me learn more.
I am NOT saying I know all there is on this subject. I am saying that what I could find in over an hour was not more than I already knew. I got tired of searching so I quit.
The saddest thing is that most of what I found that I already knew was the rhetoric on both sides of the issues that does little (nothing) to actually solve the problem...but does a whole he11 of a lot to fan the flames of discontent on both sides.
If over an hour of searching on the 'net serves up mostly inflammatory rhetoric peppered with some statistics, how can anybody 'on the street' be expected to know and act on more than inflammatory rhetoric peppered with some statistics?
I could not find a study that showed what would happen if the major corporations, businesses, etc. that perpetuated and, sometimes, actually causes illegal immigration were to simply be shut down.
How many actual US citizens would lose their jobs? How many peripheral jobs (janitorial, transportation, maintenance, etc.) would US citizens lose? How many jobs at the same or higher wages, benefits, etc. would be created on the enforcement side? How much money would be spent to eradicate these illegal employers? How would taking such a stance influence the standing of the US with its allies? How much money would be spent on documenting that a person is undocumented?
These questions and many more are not plainly answered for me.
If anybody knows where I can find answers to these questions, please post that information.
The answers I know concern my little sphere of influence...which isn't much...and which is all most people know about this subject.
I didn't look, Rocky. Sorry. I was just trying to learn something more about this subject...the history, the current attitude, etc.
Oh, I thought you had the source from which you took the quote... doesn't it say that (apparently AS OF the date of that court decision):
"Neither Republicans nor Democrats nor a broad range of interest groups is prepared to support an employer sanction program that actually would work.” ??
Now, I think we know that the last Congress, which was of the same party as the prez, did NOT effect ANY helpful immigration related measures... I'm also thinking that some leaders from the new Congress have expressed a desire to deal with immigration reform... and that the new Congress is likely to be better able to put something together that can make it to the prez, which the prez would want to sign...
Sooo... I suppose we could be keeping a lookout for this kind of provision in any immigration legislation this year.
I could not find a study that showed what would happen if the major corporations, businesses, etc. that perpetuated and, sometimes, actually causes illegal immigration were to simply be shut down.
How many actual US citizens would lose their jobs? How many peripheral jobs (janitorial, transportation, maintenance, etc.) would US citizens lose? How many jobs at the same or higher wages, benefits, etc. would be created on the enforcement side? How much money would be spent to eradicate these illegal employers? How would taking such a stance influence the standing of the US with its allies? How much money would be spent on documenting that a person is undocumented?
If you close down a shoe factory because it illegal--then the next thing that happens is that the competition who is legal either opens their own factory or takes over the old one
To hear some of the rhetoric of Big business you would think that they were the only game in town
Of course it helps if we all go along with the viewpoint they are expressing.
A restaurant closes within a month a new one has opened.
We already have laws that espouse the idea the those who commit illegal acts should not be allowed to profit from same
If you kill your spouse you don't inherit
IF you are convicted of a crime you don;t get to write a book in jail becomes a best seller about said crime
And If you hire illegals...............
And while we are swimming in this puddle lets not forget
NAFTA
Repeal it
Get tariffs on imported goods back into place
We are the wealthiest nation on earth
Maybe we should get back to acting like it
instead of trying to appease the have nots and won't nots of the rest of the world
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ChattyKathy
I was just wanting to get to the making up part with Rocky. I LOVE the making up part.
And you go do what you need to dude. I myself am going to get away and watch some TV myself but it ain't gonna be football.
Before my usage of the English language makes me wonder where the heck I was born! :unsure:
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Rocky
Wow... be careful, you might make me blush!
Well, out here in Mountain Standard Time, it's not 9PM yet, so in a little while I'll get to watch Crossing Jordan... most of the shows I like are crime dramas with just a hint of comedy... well, Law & Order doesn't really have comedy, just smart a$$ remarks sometimes.
Anyway... all of what you described as your concerns Kathy point to socialism. The fact of the matter is that the US has a significant degree of socialism already. And rightfully so. Because laissez-faire economics (from the French, essentially meaning "leave 'em alone") with NO controls ultimately becomes severely oppressive to ALL except for the ownership class (the Ted Turners, Mark Cubans, Bill Gates, Donald Trump, Warren Buffett, etc.). Fortunately, many of those folks recognize the need for mechanisms to "level the playing field" for the average American... BUT few of them will make that happen on their own. So, even they support some socialist aspects to our society/economy.
As to WHAT CAN WE (each of us alone, and/or together) DO?
That's NOT an easy fix. BUT it IS available to learn how and get busy doing something to influence change.
That's where a citizen activist comes in. But very few activists can accomplish very much on their own.
Margaret Mead (1901-1978) said, " Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it the only thing that ever has. http://www.quotationspage.com/search.php3?...rtsearch=Search
You can find groups already begun by doing internet searches. One caveat, however, this particular area of interest brings a lot of people with a lot of passionate feelings... but it's very easy to get sidetracked without the "thoughtful" aspect of the groups of committed citizens. And in this area of concern, there's a WHOLE LOT of hate and racism. Now, there are INDEED thoughtful people who want to do the right thing(s), but the fringe elements are there and it takes experience to figure out who's got it together and who doesn't. And no one can give you their experience... so, only you can figure that out for you.
AND don't worry about needing to have make up... er, hugs, yeah that's it HUGS with me... I am not offended by anything you've had to say. :D
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ChattyKathy
You described my concerns for getting involved with any group. Their passions might lead me away and no matter how zealous they could be for a cause they also bring their histories and prejudices to the table even if they try not to. It's human nature. Just like I get so hot over this and part of it is the arrogance being directed at me every time I walk across the distribution center which I do daily. I know these women speaking rudely of me in their native tongue fires me up and there is no way that isn't factored into things I think and say.
I know that the world will be somewhat the same by the time I leave it but what of the children, what will be left of this country for them? Even if I were willing to close my eyes to some of it just to get by in life.
But then I've been rightfully accused of wanting to fix things that I have no control over. It's just in this case as a citizen I feel there must be something I can do.
And that brings me back to the first paragraph again.
And aww shucks...I was really looking forward to the making up part.
Bong! That's what I missed. The quotes of the statement then the other person reply below.
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Rocky
Welllllll, I didn't mean to say that you COULDN'T... just that it's up to you.
AND that you didn't offend me...
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ChattyKathy
Well this part was pretty fun by itself. :)
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Zshot
Just to add my two cents worth in...
Here is an interesting link: http://www.illegalimmigrationjournal.com/ it is run by the Mericopa County Attornys office.
One of the things that I have noticed is that the view of illegal immigration changes the further away from the border you get... For example, I live about 30 miles North of the Mexican border. My friend Rocky lives about 200 miles (give or take) from the border. (And there is no doubt that Rocky is better at artuclating his views than I can).
I tend to take a harder line against illegal immigration. I see first hand the damage caused by illegal immigration. I have seen the damage to public and private property. I have seen the tons (literaly) of trash (some contains biological waste). And have heard of emergency rooms closing because of too many patients with the inability to by the bills.
On a side note, My boss lost his mother and her new spouse when a smuggler of illegals was trying to escape authorities a couple years ago (many of the illegals being transportated were also injured and some died) in a crash In Sierra Vista, AZ. (if someone is really interested, I can look up the old newspaper articles).
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ChattyKathy
I've been thinking about this today but was too busy to give it my full attention and one thing that concerns me is that I might have offended some of the posters on this forum simply because of their heritage. I want to clarify myself by saying I do not hold anything against hard working contributing members of the United States and that is not my gripe or my concern. It is with those gaining access to our governmental aids and those private benefactors with unhealthy reasons to give to one group and not all. So if I have offended by mistake or misunderstanding I hope you will accept my apology.
Having said that....
I believe that our party minded choices help keep us in some of this trouble we are most definitely in and how can that be repaired? Personally I see no answer in sight with the gap widening as the world around us deteriorates in making just decisions for their countries.
I wonder will it take those people that insist on giving America away seeing lack in their personal lives to get their attention.
I'm discouraged about this right now. Not depressed, just discouraged.
And Zshot, it's always a joy to see you.
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CoolWaters
I've been reluctant to step in here because I want to make sure I can control my emotions first. I think I've got them under wraps now.
The question was asked about what is wrong with keeping US resources for US citizens.
Nothing at all, imo.
However, US resources are going to be used on non-citizens one way or another. Whether in direct giveaways or in illegal immigration prevention, the resources will be used.
I am right now involved in hammering out some legislation concerning options. I help via my church. One option that is proving to be most amenable to all involved is similar to the Immigrant Sponsor program. Briefly, the US businesses would 'adopt' immigrants and mentor them for 1-5 years, teaching them what they need to know to go home and make their native community a better place. Along with the mentoring in knowledge would be the partnering in finances...something of a loan to be repaid by the immigrant once he/she has established him/herself back in his/her native community. A sharing of resources for a time, if you will, with the goal of the immigrant going back to his/her own native community. Which is what most illegal immigrants want in the first place...from what I have experienced.
There are many other details being hammered out, but this option is putting the onus of responsibility on the businesses who hire and protect and provide questionable documents for illegal immigrants.
All of the other options presented put the onus of responsibility on the government's back either in the form of prevention or handouts.
It is very costly to have a border patrol and a military paid to handle this problem at the level it is at right now. To add to this would nearly break the bank, so to speak...and doesn't work...as is proven.
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templelady
Why on earth should we as a nation be doing this????
You want to adopt and mentor someone--adopt and mentor the families in the poorer areas of this country--help them with their businesses and communities
It is really simple
IF you are an Illegal
No Food Stamps
NO housing subsidy
no "welfare" of any kind
If you are ill and end up in an emergency room your next stop is INS
If you and your significant other are illegal your child is not a United States Citizen by virtue of being born on United States soil--it has become an epidemic in the southwest of Pregnant illegals coming over the border to have babies here which are then United States Citizens
Businesses that hire illegals heavy fines and shut them down -not just the company but the CEO themselves -Illegal hiring makes you ineligible to ever have a business license again
Make it economically un-advantageous for the business and the illegals and the problem will diminish
If I sound angry it is because I am
Last night
Foreign Resident
Comes home drunk
Asked to leave
Becomes belligerent and hostile
5 staff (4 over time)
3 roommates
numerous neighbors
4 squad cars
5 police officers
3 paramedics
1 ambulance
and 2 and 1/2 hours later finally gone
has never paid a dime of rent out of his own pocket all from US govt programs, and various charities
and the problem probably still isn't resolved since the person has the avenue of complaining to the ACLU, his Embassy, our parent organization, the city, the State etc etc etc about discrimination blah blah blah
Last time we had one of these major go-arounds with a foreign national it took FIVE YEARS to finally get all the legal work , complaints etc resolved
And we need these people why????????????
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CoolWaters
Please read all of what I posted, particularly this part:
Illegal immigrants are getting their jobs from US businesses. Not me. Not you. Not their country's businesses. US businesses right here in the US.
There are many major corporations in the US who pay to bring illegal immigrants over the border, have 'companies' that make 'documentation' or just plain pay under the table, house these people (sometimes as much as 30 per apartment) in squalor in the company's slums, robbing any wages as 'rent' per head at the average of $40/night, and insinuating that it would be much simpler for the company if the illegal person were to have a legal family in the US.
I can and have named several right her in KC. There are 2 in Topeka. I'm talking major corporations.
There is a minor corporation on Point McKenzie right there in Alaska that is proud to do such things. They give their workers 'sanctuary' via their church...which means they are so far untouchable when it comes to laws concerning this matter. (Note...I said "so far". There are people working to close that particular loophole.) This corporation may itself be minor, but the church under which they operate is quite major in the US.
Why shouldn't these corporations, businesses, etc. take on the onus of responsibility for their part in this problem?
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rhino
"the ones like rhino don't want to address the needs of anyone" ... Hope, if you read this, you are fine and will be praised if you are on the left ... if you disagree with the rock, you will be chastised, called names ... he is out of control ... but he is a successful democrat, cuz eventually you get tired of his flooding every topic with his antics ... he really should be re-banned.
I showed the one study showing illegals depressed wages and put poorer Americans out of work. I was addressing the needs of those poorer democrats in the US, that now suffer competition from illegal aliens, part of the reason the real wages for the lower class has not gained anything, as Webb mentioned.
So yes, I am calling to ban the rock again... it is not worth putting up with his antics ... he has single handedly severely degraded the dialogue in the politics forum, not that it wasn't pretty bad before. His assault here has nothing to do wtih facts, he is just full of hate for any one he sees on the right.
There rocky ... thanks for the insult. You are so effin right that you can use any tactics necessary to shout everyone else down, right? I got better things to do than listen to his BS ... so go ahead and listen to him praise lame brain lefty logic, but he speaks by decree that, "I believe there is NOT a correlation between "illegals" and the high cost of health care coverage for Americans. Period." No data .. but he does use those capital letters. Then we have "Again, emphatically NO... I do NOT think cutting off foreign aid would do ANYTHING to ensure all Americans would have adequate resources." capital letters and the use of the word "emphatically". Somehow we are supposed to "respect his authority" (a la cartman) because he once wrote for some tiny lefty paper ... Good grief ...
I gotta go out and drown some puppies and clear cut some timbers ... that's what all us "repugnicans" do, ya' know?
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templelady
Because the solution you are putting forward still makes it economically advantageous for them to do what they are doing -and you can bet your bottom dollar that the newly christened illegals will be working for less with less benefits than the company would have to pay to everyone else as an "offset " to the fact they are being "mentored" "trained" " assisted" or whatever PC euphemism will be used to disgusie the fact that they are illegals working for a US company
Renaming the Foxes sheep in no way changes the fact that the henhouse is in deep trouble
Close the business
strip the CEO's of their ability to make money off the practice t
Believe me it will only take one or TWO examples and you will find business illegal free
MONEY Talks
If fact where business is concerned it is the only thing that talks
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Rocky
Gawrsh Rhino... didn't know your skin was THAT thin... that "repugnican" comment wasn't aimed at you anyway... that's what I call elected right wingers... generally speaking.
AND please don't be putting words in my mouth. Text in RED above (my emphasis of YOUR quote) is NOT from ME...
Oh, yes... I don't want to forget... Rhino... I suppose I should thank you for making this about ME? ...rather than about the topic that Hap started...
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Rocky
AND changing the subject back AWAY from ME...
Indeed... and not that it matters much at this point, but the idea of hitting businesses in the pocketbook came up in Arizona a couple years back... introduced by State Sen. Bill Brotherton D-Phoenix, in a legislature in which both the House and Senate were (and still are, btw) controlled by the Rs. Guess what happened to Mr. Brotherton's proposal. Well, IF it had been made law already, you'd have heard about it, and been able to point to it's either success or failure in addressing the problem... BUT the argument against the proposal at the time was that it would "hurt small businesses."
Now, please understand, templelady... I AGREE with you. The ONLY thing that gets the attention of the businesses is to hit them hard in the pocketbook.
Well, the idea IS gathering momentum in plenty of states and in Congress. I don't know how far the lawmakers will take it, but we should keep our ears and eyes open to try to find out.
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ChattyKathy
Why should business that hires illegals be allowed to continue when we have people out of work that are legally here?
Why should we teach the world how to support their selves if they haven't done it already since the last I knew there were no new countries that cropped up out of the ocean?
Why should we lend them a dime when we have nothing in the coffer to begin with?
Why should we give education and opportunities to anyone outside of our borders until we know for a fact everyone that wants to have the same can have it here first?
Why do we find purpose in doing things that harm our own countrymen?
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Rocky
Very thought provoking questions Kathy... tnks. :)
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ChattyKathy
You've not been rude to me Rocky and I see no reason to be at odds with you so I hope rhino understands. :unsure:
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Belle
Please, I love you guys!
Don't denigrate this great thread into personal attacks.
I'm beggin' ya!
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ChattyKathy
I'll be good.
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CoolWaters
It would be WONDERFUL if the major corporations, businesses, etc. who are (imo) the biggest part of this problem would just be closed down, the CEOs fined and kicked to the curb, the assets divided among the workers who are legal and citizens, etc. I absolutely agree that this would be one part of the solution.
Looking up information concerning this subject on the 'net, I found these sites:
Discussion of a Supreme Court decision A quote taken from Section II, Paragraph B:
Immigrants and the Labor Market, an article by Esther Cervantes, a Dollars and Sense collective member and a graduate of the LBJ School of Public Affairs.
A 'real time' counter of some statistics related to this topic.
Center for Immigration Studies.
And there are literally millions more sites relating to this topic.
I do not vouch for, endorse or in any way support these sites, the ideas presented on these sites, or the general thinking of the sites. I haven't even perused these sites except for what I quoted above. I didn't know about these sites before this evening.
My point in doing this was to find out what I didn't know about this subject. Sad to say, in over an hour of searching I was not able to find any information that helped me learn more.
I am NOT saying I know all there is on this subject. I am saying that what I could find in over an hour was not more than I already knew. I got tired of searching so I quit.
The saddest thing is that most of what I found that I already knew was the rhetoric on both sides of the issues that does little (nothing) to actually solve the problem...but does a whole he11 of a lot to fan the flames of discontent on both sides.
If over an hour of searching on the 'net serves up mostly inflammatory rhetoric peppered with some statistics, how can anybody 'on the street' be expected to know and act on more than inflammatory rhetoric peppered with some statistics?
I could not find a study that showed what would happen if the major corporations, businesses, etc. that perpetuated and, sometimes, actually causes illegal immigration were to simply be shut down.
How many actual US citizens would lose their jobs? How many peripheral jobs (janitorial, transportation, maintenance, etc.) would US citizens lose? How many jobs at the same or higher wages, benefits, etc. would be created on the enforcement side? How much money would be spent to eradicate these illegal employers? How would taking such a stance influence the standing of the US with its allies? How much money would be spent on documenting that a person is undocumented?
These questions and many more are not plainly answered for me.
If anybody knows where I can find answers to these questions, please post that information.
The answers I know concern my little sphere of influence...which isn't much...and which is all most people know about this subject.
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Rocky
CoolWaters,
What is the date of that court decision?
Having that information may help put that insight in perspective.
Thanks
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CoolWaters
I didn't look, Rocky. Sorry. I was just trying to learn something more about this subject...the history, the current attitude, etc.
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Rocky
Oh, I thought you had the source from which you took the quote... doesn't it say that (apparently AS OF the date of that court decision):
"Neither Republicans nor Democrats nor a broad range of interest groups is prepared to support an employer sanction program that actually would work.” ??
Now, I think we know that the last Congress, which was of the same party as the prez, did NOT effect ANY helpful immigration related measures... I'm also thinking that some leaders from the new Congress have expressed a desire to deal with immigration reform... and that the new Congress is likely to be better able to put something together that can make it to the prez, which the prez would want to sign...
Sooo... I suppose we could be keeping a lookout for this kind of provision in any immigration legislation this year.
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templelady
If you close down a shoe factory because it illegal--then the next thing that happens is that the competition who is legal either opens their own factory or takes over the old one
To hear some of the rhetoric of Big business you would think that they were the only game in town
Of course it helps if we all go along with the viewpoint they are expressing.
A restaurant closes within a month a new one has opened.
We already have laws that espouse the idea the those who commit illegal acts should not be allowed to profit from same
If you kill your spouse you don't inherit
IF you are convicted of a crime you don;t get to write a book in jail becomes a best seller about said crime
And If you hire illegals...............
And while we are swimming in this puddle lets not forget
NAFTA
Repeal it
Get tariffs on imported goods back into place
We are the wealthiest nation on earth
Maybe we should get back to acting like it
instead of trying to appease the have nots and won't nots of the rest of the world
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