To Rocky's comment about the native indigent, I have less problem paying for the people that have fallen through the cracks in our society, more problem providing for people that come here as a remedy caused by the ills in their own society. If the rich Mexicans don't want to take care of their poor, their poor should rise up against them. After three beers I favor arming poor Mexicans to revolt against their own government. But now we are really going over the edge :)
hmmm, they taught flipper to blow up ships ... give the bear a few beers, send them in ...
that reminds me, my dorm floor shirt was "the dead bears" with a passed out drunk bear on it ... my WOW coordinator said she wanted it, but now I think she just threw it out ... Anne ... I want my shirt back ...
All I came up in my pondering was more questions rather than answers so I thought I would just note my thoughts and maybe in time I can answer some of my own:
1) I need to make this clear that I do not believe we should fix the world. I never have and suspect I never will. And yes I know my President seems to disagree with me.
2) I do not believe we are bound by law, grace or otherwise to extend funds to war-torn or impoverished counties. And I might not be so adamant about that if other countries did their FAIR share rather than us and them thinking it is our responsibility. We have hungry here, even if Rocky feels that should not be an issue in our country, it is.
3) Where are we to find these funds to continue to feed and educate and heal the world? And it is not going to be in an easy answer of "get out of Iraq" either. The coffer puts out more than it is fairly put into. Be it the rich with their tax breaks or the illegals not paying in yet taking our jobs and sending the money back to their countries rather than even adding to our economy by spending here.
4) If we could actually help educate people in a humanitarian manner and thus be assured they would return to their countries and improve the conditions so they could become independent rather than asking for and accepting our funds that would be ideal. But it does not seem to work that way as best I can ascertain.
5) And no matter what is right or wrong this haughty attitude in our face from these people is unacceptable and they best be thankful to their gods that we do not react to them the way they so richly deserve.
6) I have no problem with children immigrants in our schools IF their parents pay the same $ for $ that I have to pay (not optional in my neck of the woods).
7) I have no problem with immigrants obtaining health care if they have to pay the same $ for $ that I have to. And just because we have health care does not mean we can afford to pay for it. But if we give away our medical care then someone will have to pay for it. And who is that someone? It is certainly not someone that is not paying into our economy or having the same $ for $ taxes taken out of their paychecks as mine.
I do not hate people from other countries and wish them ill, I just do not like to be assumed rich and expected to provide for them because they are poor. I just cannot get on that train and I have tried to understand it I honestly have.
It reminds me of the young couples who get themselves in enormous debt right off the bat just so they can have the same nice house and car that their parents who worked a life time to acquire have. I just do not get that.
Sorry Rhino, I did not mean to put you on the spot. One of the stated goals with this thread is to identify the programs and get them out of the ranks of "I heard that...". Get them into some form where we can discuss their merits or lacks thereof. As I said in one of the initial posts, I am not comfortable writing to a congressman and being upset about a program I only heard someone "vaguely remember" on an internet board.
At this point I admit that I am supposing that SOME PART of the anger I have heard is about a perception that in SOME cases is erroneous. I also expect that there ARE some programs that exist, which could be improved, and that there is abuse of SOME programs by people who have either illegally entered the country or illegally reside here.
So, for now the idea that there is money given to immigrants to start businesses in the US is in a "perceived, existance not verified" list. I cannot be for or against a program that may or may not exist and I cannot be angry about recipients of a benefit that they may or may not in fact receive. You can be if you wish of course.
The reason my question about turning-in employers is relevant, is we are also looking at what to do about problems that exist. It has been proposed that employers should be prosecuted. How will we identify the employers? Do we want to hire investigators to go door to door or should the citizenry act to identify them. OK, I see now that the way I worded it sounded like I was asking you personally. It was not meant to be "you, Rhino, specifically" as there are others who read the thread. I was sloppy. (can I have some of that wine you make).
So, you think it is silly to seek proof as to what the problems are? OK, that is fine, but you, I, and others here, do know how to try and address bad laws and programs. For my part, I do not know how to address bad perceptions and gut feelings.
What I am getting about the credit card thing is that it was "obvious" to you that these "not Americans (not in spirit at least)" were doing something that was "obviously" illegal or fraudulent, but that the store went ahead and accepted their cards anyway. OK As far as I know, credit card companies are not government insured. I have not yet heard of a credit card company going under either. I expect that the people who pay for the defaults to some degree are the people who have low credit scores and therefore high interest rate cards. Credit card companies, like insurance companies, charge according to risk. Overall, I expect they come out making money on each risk category. I don't THINK my taxes got to cover it, but maybe I AM "stupid" as you said. <_< I would expect the biggest losers to be the investors in the CC company if they were to go under.
I do not know what the insignificant details I asked questions about were. Pretty much everything I asked went towards trying to identify whether something is in the perception category or the reality category at this point. I thought perhaps you as the person relaying the story might know more, apparently you do not, but you have heard it to be so. Perceptions may or may not be accurate so, no, it does not mean you are wrong, only that I may be unsure whether you are right.
I have no intention of going out and searching for every law that someone says exists. I already read major portions of Title 8 Chapter 14 of the US Code before I started this thread. (thanks to someone who sent it to me, you know who you are, dang you! LOL) If someone brings something to the table and cannot provide their own links to show it exists, I will in some cases make my own "perception" as to its validity, and I will ask if they wish to bring us more.
As an example, the interpreter thing I expect to be true. My question as to if there is such a law was to find out if these must be formal "Interpretors" or is the requirement simply that the hospital must be able to communicate between the patient and the doctor/nurse. Would multilingual staff members be able to fit the requirement for the majority of cases? I understand there are many languages, and there would be a need for some interpretors.
I understand that there is a problem with misuse of ER facilities and this puts a crunch on the services these places are BEST equipped to handle, emergencies. I suspect one possible solution could be to have more small clinics to which these people might be referred rather than handling them in overtaxed ERs. Pass the beer Rhino! you need another and I would like one myself.
thanks for your questions Kathy, I'll look em over more another time, but on #2:
We are not bound by law or anything else to pass laws to give that aid. That said, laws ARE passed (appropriations bills) to extend aid to other countries. Do you think we should not do that? We have been doing it for just about forever I believe. Is it time to stop?
See. I know this all just keeps raising questions, and I get that Rhino did not like being asked them, but I would hope that just by us asking more questions we can come to a better understanding of each other, if not of the problem. Maybe that is all we can accomplish here, but that is still better than shooting unarmed bears. (or something)
Those that are funded by public funds, state or city or county are required to treat you if you cannot pay. They may send you a bill, but if you cannot pay that bill, they will negotiate some kind of sliding scale payment. If you find yourself on limited funds and that you've been admitted to a hospital, don't give them a credit card number. They will charge everything to it.
The various rules and regs are specific by state, so no one solution fits all cases.
And I might not be so adamant about that if other countries did their FAIR share rather than us and them thinking it is our responsibility. We have hungry here, even if Rocky feels that should not be an issue in our country, it is.
Point 1: This reminds me of my earliest memories, as an "adult" of things political. I was still overseas, still an airman in the USAF. It was just before the 1976 general election. I remember having voted absentee, for a third party candidate for president. I remember being indignant about foreign aid... from US taxpayer tax dollars. I remember even writing to my US senator about it... of course, nothing ever came of the situation. I don't even remember receiving a response. I later came to understand just a little bit of the why's and wherefores of foreign aide... not much, just a little. Years later, in the early 1990s, while working as an accountant in a state government agency, my first real lobbying/activist activity... bugging Arizona lawmakers about a pending ban on smoking in state buildings. THAT seems so archaic of an issue now, but then, it looked like they weren't going to put a ban in effect. I won't describe my working conditions in detail, but I was subjected to second hand smoke wayyyyyyyyyy tooooooooo much. After that, (which finally did pass) I became more involved in state and school district issues... and actually got some things accomplished (not alone, but with small groups of committed people).
Point 2: My point was not to deny there is hunger in America. I'm sure there is. However, there need not be, because of local initiatives (food banks/volunteers) as well as the federally funded Food Stamp program. Where it is occurring, there is obviously some breakdown in outreach and/or implementation. People who are determined CAN get through obstacles. People who are desparate and hungry may not know HOW to do so on their own, however.
So, Kathy, please don't think I was saying you were less than truthful... I believe you... and I suppose that if I knew anyone in such a situation, I'd want to help find the path to overcome any obstacles. Because I know that paths are there to be found.
Being posted before I read Rocky...so will read and reply okay.
thanks for your questions Kathy, I'll look em over more another time, but on #2:
We are not bound by law or anything else to pass laws to give that aid. That said, laws ARE passed (appropriations bills) to extend aid to other countries. Do you think we should not do that? We have been doing it for just about forever I believe. Is it time to stop?
See. I know this all just keeps raising questions, and I get that Rhino did not like being asked them, but I would hope that just by us asking more questions we can come to a better understanding of each other, if not of the problem. Maybe that is all we can accomplish here, but that is still better than shooting unarmed bears. (or something)
~HAP
Hap,
I have been sick physically to have been so raw honest about this subject. And it feels some foreign to me because I love people and would extend myself to a stranger in need and I know I would.
Yet we are in dire straits and worsening all the time. We so not have the capacity to fix our own ailments hardly. There are over 40 million people in our country without medical insurance.
I was told by an Immigration lawyer the system is so broken it is irreparable, it is virtually impossible to turn it around.
But yes, I think it is time to stop. That might haunt me tonight but it is how I feel right now.
Point 1: This reminds me of my earliest memories, as an "adult" of things political. I was still overseas, still an airman in the USAF. It was just before the 1976 general election. I remember having voted absentee, for a third party candidate for president. I remember being indignant about foreign aid... from US taxpayer tax dollars. I remember even writing to my US senator about it... of course, nothing ever came of the situation. I don't even remember receiving a response. I later came to understand just a little bit of the why's and wherefores of foreign aide... not much, just a little. Years later, in the early 1990s, while working as an accountant in a state government agency, my first real lobbying/activist activity... bugging Arizona lawmakers about a pending ban on smoking in state buildings. THAT seems so archaic of an issue now, but then, it looked like they weren't going to put a ban in effect. I won't describe my working conditions in detail, but I was subjected to second hand smoke wayyyyyyyyyy tooooooooo much. After that, (which finally did pass) I became more involved in state and school district issues... and actually got some things accomplished (not alone, but with small groups of committed people).
Point 2: My point was not to deny there is hunger in America. I'm sure there is. However, there need not be, because of local initiatives (food banks/volunteers) as well as the federally funded Food Stamp program. Where it is occurring, there is obviously some breakdown in outreach and/or implementation. People who are determined CAN get through obstacles. People who are desparate and hungry may not know HOW to do so on their own, however.
So, Kathy, please don't think I was saying you were less than truthful... I believe you... and I suppose that if I knew anyone in such a situation, I'd want to help find the path to overcome any obstacles. Because I know that paths are there to be found.
Thank you Rocky. And thank you also for how you speak to me. I can see you have no intention of putting me in a corner even though I have given you ample opportunity and I know we have differing views on some of the guts of 'tacks.
But no lie this subject is a toughie.
About hospitals:
Those that are funded by public funds, state or city or county are required to treat you if you cannot pay. They may send you a bill, but if you cannot pay that bill, they will negotiate some kind of sliding scale payment. If you find yourself on limited funds and that you've been admitted to a hospital, don't give them a credit card number. They will charge everything to it.
The various rules and regs are specific by state, so no one solution fits all cases.
Off topic I know but do you think that frivolous lawsuits being won have aided in the woes of the medical industry?
Frivolous lawsuits or not, I can't answer that. But I do know that it's difficult in this area to find an obgyn who will deviver babies because their malpractice insurance is too high if they do.
Several doctors in this area have closed their offices and move to other states. But that because this is New Jersey, and everything is screwey here.
I lost my doctor for the same reason. Her insurance company would only pay half the claim should she ever be sued and she could not risk it she felt. I hated to lose her, she was wonderful.
Thank you Rocky. And thank you also for how you speak to me. I can see you have no intention of putting me in a corner even though I have given you ample opportunity and I know we have differing views on some of the guts of 'tacks.
like Kathy and I have same views on some of the guts of 'tacks?????? LOL
I am a lightweight and crashing for the night. But this has been a wonderful thread and I hope it continues. For myself it is helping me work thru some inner things that have eaten on me for some time now. And it feels like a healthy way in which to do it.
I lost my doctor for the same reason. Her insurance company would only pay half the claim should she ever be sued and she could not risk it she felt. I hated to lose her, she was wonderful.
Right... as far as the hospitals go, I don't believe "frivilous" lawsuits are a problem.
However, malpractice insurance premiums (because of the proliferation of careless practitioners) have gotten high in AZ also and THAT has reportedly impacted the number of health professionals practicing in rural areas in AZ... and that seems to be especially the case regarding ob/gyn's in rural AZ...
Do we want to hire investigators to go door to door or should the citizenry act to identify them.
I think now they don't fine them even if they are turned in, and that policy is the problem. Clinton did little, then Bush did much less. IIRC
So, you think it is silly to seek proof as to what the problems are? OK, that is fine, but you, I, and others here, do know how to try and address bad laws and programs.
Policy is the problem, and selective enforcement or no enforcement. Turning individual illegals in does nothing, they even have rallies with Mexican flags. Proof about the non english speaker with 10 credit cards wouldn't really prove anything, it is just one example.
something that was "obviously" illegal or fraudulent, but that the store went ahead and accepted their cards anyway. ... Overall, I expect they come out making money on each risk category. I don't THINK my taxes got to cover it, but maybe I AM "stupid" as you said. <_< I would expect the biggest losers to be the investors in the CC company if they were to go under.
When I say "hidden tax", I'm including hidden costs, whether they go through a government program or not. My cost of health care goes way up because of all the people that don't pay. The cost to our nation goes up if people with fraudulent ID are allowed the same access to our credit systems as legitimate players. If a CC company goes bankrupt, I guess all the investors lose out, as well as those that accepted those cards. Somebody pays.
I do not know what the insignificant details I asked questions about were. ... Perceptions may or may not be accurate so, no, it does not mean you are wrong, only that I may be unsure whether you are right.
I have no intention of going out and searching for every law that someone says exists.
At this opening part of the discussion, it seems your 50 questions are a little burdensome. I think if we find any law directly benefitting illegals or recent immigrants, we can focus more on that. I believe the hidden costs and policy of non-enforcement are the bigger issue.
Would multilingual staff members be able to fit the requirement for the majority of cases? I understand there are many languages, and there would be a need for some interpretors.
sure, if you have a spanish speaking staff that helps. But I think there is already an issue of discriminitive hiring against non-Spanish speakers, right here in the US. Even Ted Kennedy says immigrants have to learn English.
I suspect one possible solution could be to have more small clinics to which these people might be referred rather than handling them in overtaxed ERs.
I guess those would have to be government funded clinics, since it is a segment of the market that is unprofitable. And wouldn't that basically be government funding for illegal aliens? Are you proposing the exact sort of program we are looking for in this discussion?
So we have what so far? Health care and schools are two biggies, multi-lingual requirements on American business is one. Destruction of neighborhoods by illegal alien gangs is pretty big. Credit given to people that may not even exist might be a problem (but the person using the card exists.)
Just the amount of money sent back to Mexico by workers here is a factor. That is money that doesn't get reinvested here. I'm thinking our tax structure and some incentive programs may be rooted in the idea that the government money or incentives will have a multiplying effect. Money given to encourage new business gets spent in the US, where other people pay more tax on it, perhaps enough to pay for the program. (that is partly the idea with lowering taxes increasing gov' revenues, as seems to be the case) But if the money is invested with illegals or recent immigrants, much of that gets short circuited as the funds go to Mexico.
Sorry if I broadened this too much, but I'd be surprised if there are any direct payments to illegals, unless they provide fake ID.
That last statement regarding spending the monies here rather than elsewhere was one of my concerns voiced also but you did a much better job including ideas. That is something I will endeavor to add also. I think that is critical for not only the established Americans but for those we are speaking of or some day there will be nothing for anyone to earn and spend.
You express yourself just fine Kathy ... it's good to hear your thoughts ...
It seems the printers of money have a different view of money than most of us. It feels like some elites in a room somewhere are deciding how to redistribute wealth. The huge numbers are hard to comprehend. We have trade deficits, deficit spending, medicare cost projections .... do we need to import more workers? I don't know, but the changes to society and culture need to be considered along with the economic theories.
The veterans questions seem especially relevant, as they and their families have more invested in America than the newcomers and the illegal aliens.
.... do we need to import more workers? I don't know, but the changes to society and culture need to be considered along with the economic theories.
Oh my, there you hit a sore spot for me, for sure! As a number of you know, for health reasons, Sushi is no longer able to drive a semi and is now looking for a new job. At this point, for us the salary isn't nearly as much of an issue as the medical benefits. He was trying for a factory job - the pay sucked, most certainly not anywhere near a living wage, nor near what he previously earned, but the benefits were great. There were approximately 400 people applying for this low paying job!!! No, we don't need to import more workers!!! And I say the argument that Americans won't do the low paying jobs is absolute BS!
(Abi, I see you posted while I was posting and have not read you yet because I got up from computer, I will now)
Rhino, Thank you for your comment on my words and thoughts.
I realize as we educate and help upgrade other countries their need of our products lesson and that impacts us more than we realize it would appear. As well we have already had it proven that when we had needs there was hesitance to give to the very country that helped them get to the point they are today.
To import workers is IMHO dead wrong. That practice has and will continue to be part of the problem due to their taking our jobs because they will do it for less. Florida use to have a terrible problem with that. I do not know about these days. Except I will add that my mother has the most precious neighbors that came from Cuba and probably work harder than 2 families combined. As well as have a dear friend from Mexico who probably gives and cares more about America than many born-into Americans. So I know there cannot be a clean sweep that it appears I try to use at times. Yet these foreign workers concept has hurt us badly, and out sourcing should be abolished IMHO.
No matter what changes we make it will hurt someone. But that happens in every walk of life and will continue to. Do we not make change because of it? We might feel fulfilled at the moment when we make these decisions to aid others but when we are dieing in the gutter because we no longer have the means to even go to our American given aid; we may feel completely different about.
People pee and moan (why can we not say that word here? it is far from obscene) because they see inequality in less fortunate countries so they feel their personal gaps inside with extending a hand (arm) and are completely oblivious to the born-into countrymen in their own neighborhoods dying from neglect. How do they sleep at night knowing their pseudo-humanitarian mindset is part of the bigger problem?
I think we should stand on the concept....do unto others if they will help themselves first!
Oh my, there you hit a sore spot for me, for sure! As a number of you know, for health reasons, Sushi is no longer able to drive a semi and is now looking for a new job. At this point, for us the salary isn't nearly as much of an issue as the medical benefits. He was trying for a factory job - the pay sucked, most certainly not anywhere near a living wage, nor near what he previously earned, but the benefits were great. There were approximately 400 people applying for this low paying job!!! No, we don't need to import more workers!!! And I say the argument that Americans won't do the low paying jobs is absolute BS!
Amen!!!!!
dieing=dying
I refuse to have edits noted if possible, it just grips my butt.
feel=feed
And yes if I could do it correct the first time......
An estimated 33.9 percent of households headed by legal Mexican immigrants and 24.9 percent headed by illegal Mexican immigrants used at least one major welfare program. In contrast, 14.8 percent of native households used welfare." In fact, according to the Camarota report, "the estimated life-time net fiscal drain (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is negative $55,200."
Since most of today's Mexican immigrants have low levels of formal education (almost two-thirds of them have not completed high school), their presence in the work force poses a direct threat to the 10 million of your fellow American citizens who have not completed high school. Camarota explains that "Mexican immigration is overwhelmingly unskilled... unskilled immigration... tends to reduce wages for workers who are already the lowest paid and whose real wages actually declined in the 1990s."
If the U.S. already has plenty of poverty, why import more? And present-day Mexican immigration is a poverty-importation scheme, as Camarota informs us. "Although they comprise 4.2 percent of the nation's total population, Mexican immigrants and their U.S.-born children (under 18) account for 10.2 percent of all persons in poverty and 12.5 percent of those without health insurance."
That article is the type that tree-hugging-humanitarians use as their justification to give America away. And the more outraged we become the more barbaric they make us appear. So I wonder if perhaps they have incomes into their homes that have blinded them to the greater need.
Abi's tag line says quite a lot about that, but it is intended (in my understanding) to speak from a point of if you have no need it is hard to understand need. Americans have and will continue to have needs because their God given American rights and resources are being given away every single day!
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Rocky
Don't lose sight of the RIGHT to ARM BEARS!
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rhino
hmmm, they taught flipper to blow up ships ... give the bear a few beers, send them in ...
that reminds me, my dorm floor shirt was "the dead bears" with a passed out drunk bear on it ... my WOW coordinator said she wanted it, but now I think she just threw it out ... Anne ... I want my shirt back ...
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ChattyKathy
All I came up in my pondering was more questions rather than answers so I thought I would just note my thoughts and maybe in time I can answer some of my own:
1) I need to make this clear that I do not believe we should fix the world. I never have and suspect I never will. And yes I know my President seems to disagree with me.
2) I do not believe we are bound by law, grace or otherwise to extend funds to war-torn or impoverished counties. And I might not be so adamant about that if other countries did their FAIR share rather than us and them thinking it is our responsibility. We have hungry here, even if Rocky feels that should not be an issue in our country, it is.
3) Where are we to find these funds to continue to feed and educate and heal the world? And it is not going to be in an easy answer of "get out of Iraq" either. The coffer puts out more than it is fairly put into. Be it the rich with their tax breaks or the illegals not paying in yet taking our jobs and sending the money back to their countries rather than even adding to our economy by spending here.
4) If we could actually help educate people in a humanitarian manner and thus be assured they would return to their countries and improve the conditions so they could become independent rather than asking for and accepting our funds that would be ideal. But it does not seem to work that way as best I can ascertain.
5) And no matter what is right or wrong this haughty attitude in our face from these people is unacceptable and they best be thankful to their gods that we do not react to them the way they so richly deserve.
6) I have no problem with children immigrants in our schools IF their parents pay the same $ for $ that I have to pay (not optional in my neck of the woods).
7) I have no problem with immigrants obtaining health care if they have to pay the same $ for $ that I have to. And just because we have health care does not mean we can afford to pay for it. But if we give away our medical care then someone will have to pay for it. And who is that someone? It is certainly not someone that is not paying into our economy or having the same $ for $ taxes taken out of their paychecks as mine.
I do not hate people from other countries and wish them ill, I just do not like to be assumed rich and expected to provide for them because they are poor. I just cannot get on that train and I have tried to understand it I honestly have.
It reminds me of the young couples who get themselves in enormous debt right off the bat just so they can have the same nice house and car that their parents who worked a life time to acquire have. I just do not get that.
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HAPe4me
Sorry Rhino, I did not mean to put you on the spot. One of the stated goals with this thread is to identify the programs and get them out of the ranks of "I heard that...". Get them into some form where we can discuss their merits or lacks thereof. As I said in one of the initial posts, I am not comfortable writing to a congressman and being upset about a program I only heard someone "vaguely remember" on an internet board.
At this point I admit that I am supposing that SOME PART of the anger I have heard is about a perception that in SOME cases is erroneous. I also expect that there ARE some programs that exist, which could be improved, and that there is abuse of SOME programs by people who have either illegally entered the country or illegally reside here.
So, for now the idea that there is money given to immigrants to start businesses in the US is in a "perceived, existance not verified" list. I cannot be for or against a program that may or may not exist and I cannot be angry about recipients of a benefit that they may or may not in fact receive. You can be if you wish of course.
The reason my question about turning-in employers is relevant, is we are also looking at what to do about problems that exist. It has been proposed that employers should be prosecuted. How will we identify the employers? Do we want to hire investigators to go door to door or should the citizenry act to identify them. OK, I see now that the way I worded it sounded like I was asking you personally. It was not meant to be "you, Rhino, specifically" as there are others who read the thread. I was sloppy. (can I have some of that wine you make).
So, you think it is silly to seek proof as to what the problems are? OK, that is fine, but you, I, and others here, do know how to try and address bad laws and programs. For my part, I do not know how to address bad perceptions and gut feelings.
What I am getting about the credit card thing is that it was "obvious" to you that these "not Americans (not in spirit at least)" were doing something that was "obviously" illegal or fraudulent, but that the store went ahead and accepted their cards anyway. OK As far as I know, credit card companies are not government insured. I have not yet heard of a credit card company going under either. I expect that the people who pay for the defaults to some degree are the people who have low credit scores and therefore high interest rate cards. Credit card companies, like insurance companies, charge according to risk. Overall, I expect they come out making money on each risk category. I don't THINK my taxes got to cover it, but maybe I AM "stupid" as you said. <_< I would expect the biggest losers to be the investors in the CC company if they were to go under.
I do not know what the insignificant details I asked questions about were. Pretty much everything I asked went towards trying to identify whether something is in the perception category or the reality category at this point. I thought perhaps you as the person relaying the story might know more, apparently you do not, but you have heard it to be so. Perceptions may or may not be accurate so, no, it does not mean you are wrong, only that I may be unsure whether you are right.
I have no intention of going out and searching for every law that someone says exists. I already read major portions of Title 8 Chapter 14 of the US Code before I started this thread. (thanks to someone who sent it to me, you know who you are, dang you! LOL) If someone brings something to the table and cannot provide their own links to show it exists, I will in some cases make my own "perception" as to its validity, and I will ask if they wish to bring us more.
As an example, the interpreter thing I expect to be true. My question as to if there is such a law was to find out if these must be formal "Interpretors" or is the requirement simply that the hospital must be able to communicate between the patient and the doctor/nurse. Would multilingual staff members be able to fit the requirement for the majority of cases? I understand there are many languages, and there would be a need for some interpretors.
I understand that there is a problem with misuse of ER facilities and this puts a crunch on the services these places are BEST equipped to handle, emergencies. I suspect one possible solution could be to have more small clinics to which these people might be referred rather than handling them in overtaxed ERs. Pass the beer Rhino! you need another and I would like one myself.
~HAP
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HAPe4me
thanks for your questions Kathy, I'll look em over more another time, but on #2:
We are not bound by law or anything else to pass laws to give that aid. That said, laws ARE passed (appropriations bills) to extend aid to other countries. Do you think we should not do that? We have been doing it for just about forever I believe. Is it time to stop?
See. I know this all just keeps raising questions, and I get that Rhino did not like being asked them, but I would hope that just by us asking more questions we can come to a better understanding of each other, if not of the problem. Maybe that is all we can accomplish here, but that is still better than shooting unarmed bears. (or something)
~HAP
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krys
About hospitals:
Those that are funded by public funds, state or city or county are required to treat you if you cannot pay. They may send you a bill, but if you cannot pay that bill, they will negotiate some kind of sliding scale payment. If you find yourself on limited funds and that you've been admitted to a hospital, don't give them a credit card number. They will charge everything to it.
The various rules and regs are specific by state, so no one solution fits all cases.
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Rocky
Point 1: This reminds me of my earliest memories, as an "adult" of things political. I was still overseas, still an airman in the USAF. It was just before the 1976 general election. I remember having voted absentee, for a third party candidate for president. I remember being indignant about foreign aid... from US taxpayer tax dollars. I remember even writing to my US senator about it... of course, nothing ever came of the situation. I don't even remember receiving a response. I later came to understand just a little bit of the why's and wherefores of foreign aide... not much, just a little. Years later, in the early 1990s, while working as an accountant in a state government agency, my first real lobbying/activist activity... bugging Arizona lawmakers about a pending ban on smoking in state buildings. THAT seems so archaic of an issue now, but then, it looked like they weren't going to put a ban in effect. I won't describe my working conditions in detail, but I was subjected to second hand smoke wayyyyyyyyyy tooooooooo much. After that, (which finally did pass) I became more involved in state and school district issues... and actually got some things accomplished (not alone, but with small groups of committed people).
Point 2: My point was not to deny there is hunger in America. I'm sure there is. However, there need not be, because of local initiatives (food banks/volunteers) as well as the federally funded Food Stamp program. Where it is occurring, there is obviously some breakdown in outreach and/or implementation. People who are determined CAN get through obstacles. People who are desparate and hungry may not know HOW to do so on their own, however.
So, Kathy, please don't think I was saying you were less than truthful... I believe you... and I suppose that if I knew anyone in such a situation, I'd want to help find the path to overcome any obstacles. Because I know that paths are there to be found.
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ChattyKathy
Being posted before I read Rocky...so will read and reply okay.
Hap,
I have been sick physically to have been so raw honest about this subject. And it feels some foreign to me because I love people and would extend myself to a stranger in need and I know I would.
Yet we are in dire straits and worsening all the time. We so not have the capacity to fix our own ailments hardly. There are over 40 million people in our country without medical insurance.
I was told by an Immigration lawyer the system is so broken it is irreparable, it is virtually impossible to turn it around.
But yes, I think it is time to stop. That might haunt me tonight but it is how I feel right now.
Kathy
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ChattyKathy
Thank you Rocky. And thank you also for how you speak to me. I can see you have no intention of putting me in a corner even though I have given you ample opportunity and I know we have differing views on some of the guts of 'tacks.
But no lie this subject is a toughie.
Off topic I know but do you think that frivolous lawsuits being won have aided in the woes of the medical industry?
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Rocky
My belief: emphatically NO.
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ChattyKathy
I have wondered about it and do not really know the answer as to how it went so terribly wrong but I know that was a derail on my part.
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krys
Frivolous lawsuits or not, I can't answer that. But I do know that it's difficult in this area to find an obgyn who will deviver babies because their malpractice insurance is too high if they do.
Several doctors in this area have closed their offices and move to other states. But that because this is New Jersey, and everything is screwey here.
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ChattyKathy
I lost my doctor for the same reason. Her insurance company would only pay half the claim should she ever be sued and she could not risk it she felt. I hated to lose her, she was wonderful.
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HAPe4me
hehe this is fun
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ChattyKathy
I am a lightweight and crashing for the night. But this has been a wonderful thread and I hope it continues. For myself it is helping me work thru some inner things that have eaten on me for some time now. And it feels like a healthy way in which to do it.
And Hap you are pretty cool you know that!
Sweet dreams all.
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Rocky
Right... as far as the hospitals go, I don't believe "frivilous" lawsuits are a problem.
However, malpractice insurance premiums (because of the proliferation of careless practitioners) have gotten high in AZ also and THAT has reportedly impacted the number of health professionals practicing in rural areas in AZ... and that seems to be especially the case regarding ob/gyn's in rural AZ...
To summarize:
frivilous lawsuits no; malpractice incidents (with resulting claims/lawsuits) yes.
malpractice insurance premium increases: hospitals no; doctors yes
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rhino
Policy is the problem, and selective enforcement or no enforcement. Turning individual illegals in does nothing, they even have rallies with Mexican flags. Proof about the non english speaker with 10 credit cards wouldn't really prove anything, it is just one example.
As I said, I'm too stupid to explain it. I believe all lenders come under government regulation, but I don't care enough to try to find out right now. Can Banks Profiteer From Illegal Immigration with Impunity? There is one article.When I say "hidden tax", I'm including hidden costs, whether they go through a government program or not. My cost of health care goes way up because of all the people that don't pay. The cost to our nation goes up if people with fraudulent ID are allowed the same access to our credit systems as legitimate players. If a CC company goes bankrupt, I guess all the investors lose out, as well as those that accepted those cards. Somebody pays.
At this opening part of the discussion, it seems your 50 questions are a little burdensome. I think if we find any law directly benefitting illegals or recent immigrants, we can focus more on that. I believe the hidden costs and policy of non-enforcement are the bigger issue.
sure, if you have a spanish speaking staff that helps. But I think there is already an issue of discriminitive hiring against non-Spanish speakers, right here in the US. Even Ted Kennedy says immigrants have to learn English.I guess those would have to be government funded clinics, since it is a segment of the market that is unprofitable. And wouldn't that basically be government funding for illegal aliens? Are you proposing the exact sort of program we are looking for in this discussion?So we have what so far? Health care and schools are two biggies, multi-lingual requirements on American business is one. Destruction of neighborhoods by illegal alien gangs is pretty big. Credit given to people that may not even exist might be a problem (but the person using the card exists.)
Just the amount of money sent back to Mexico by workers here is a factor. That is money that doesn't get reinvested here. I'm thinking our tax structure and some incentive programs may be rooted in the idea that the government money or incentives will have a multiplying effect. Money given to encourage new business gets spent in the US, where other people pay more tax on it, perhaps enough to pay for the program. (that is partly the idea with lowering taxes increasing gov' revenues, as seems to be the case) But if the money is invested with illegals or recent immigrants, much of that gets short circuited as the funds go to Mexico.
Sorry if I broadened this too much, but I'd be surprised if there are any direct payments to illegals, unless they provide fake ID.
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ChattyKathy
That last statement regarding spending the monies here rather than elsewhere was one of my concerns voiced also but you did a much better job including ideas. That is something I will endeavor to add also. I think that is critical for not only the established Americans but for those we are speaking of or some day there will be nothing for anyone to earn and spend.
Back to
now.
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rhino
You express yourself just fine Kathy ... it's good to hear your thoughts ...
It seems the printers of money have a different view of money than most of us. It feels like some elites in a room somewhere are deciding how to redistribute wealth. The huge numbers are hard to comprehend. We have trade deficits, deficit spending, medicare cost projections .... do we need to import more workers? I don't know, but the changes to society and culture need to be considered along with the economic theories.
The veterans questions seem especially relevant, as they and their families have more invested in America than the newcomers and the illegal aliens.
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Abigail
Oh my, there you hit a sore spot for me, for sure! As a number of you know, for health reasons, Sushi is no longer able to drive a semi and is now looking for a new job. At this point, for us the salary isn't nearly as much of an issue as the medical benefits. He was trying for a factory job - the pay sucked, most certainly not anywhere near a living wage, nor near what he previously earned, but the benefits were great. There were approximately 400 people applying for this low paying job!!! No, we don't need to import more workers!!! And I say the argument that Americans won't do the low paying jobs is absolute BS!
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ChattyKathy
(Abi, I see you posted while I was posting and have not read you yet because I got up from computer, I will now)
Rhino, Thank you for your comment on my words and thoughts.
I realize as we educate and help upgrade other countries their need of our products lesson and that impacts us more than we realize it would appear. As well we have already had it proven that when we had needs there was hesitance to give to the very country that helped them get to the point they are today.
To import workers is IMHO dead wrong. That practice has and will continue to be part of the problem due to their taking our jobs because they will do it for less. Florida use to have a terrible problem with that. I do not know about these days. Except I will add that my mother has the most precious neighbors that came from Cuba and probably work harder than 2 families combined. As well as have a dear friend from Mexico who probably gives and cares more about America than many born-into Americans. So I know there cannot be a clean sweep that it appears I try to use at times. Yet these foreign workers concept has hurt us badly, and out sourcing should be abolished IMHO.
No matter what changes we make it will hurt someone. But that happens in every walk of life and will continue to. Do we not make change because of it? We might feel fulfilled at the moment when we make these decisions to aid others but when we are dieing in the gutter because we no longer have the means to even go to our American given aid; we may feel completely different about.
People pee and moan (why can we not say that word here? it is far from obscene) because they see inequality in less fortunate countries so they feel their personal gaps inside with extending a hand (arm) and are completely oblivious to the born-into countrymen in their own neighborhoods dying from neglect. How do they sleep at night knowing their pseudo-humanitarian mindset is part of the bigger problem?
I think we should stand on the concept....do unto others if they will help themselves first!
Amen!!!!!
dieing=dying
I refuse to have edits noted if possible, it just grips my butt.
feel=feed
And yes if I could do it correct the first time......
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rhino
Here, I just found this piece ... The High Cost Of Mexican Immigration ...
It is all worth reading.
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ChattyKathy
And since I am on the rag regarding words not allowed and yada yada I would like to say this:
p!33 is not a bad word
edits should be allowed for at least 1 minute before noted
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ChattyKathy
Rhino,
That article is the type that tree-hugging-humanitarians use as their justification to give America away. And the more outraged we become the more barbaric they make us appear. So I wonder if perhaps they have incomes into their homes that have blinded them to the greater need.
Abi's tag line says quite a lot about that, but it is intended (in my understanding) to speak from a point of if you have no need it is hard to understand need. Americans have and will continue to have needs because their God given American rights and resources are being given away every single day!
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