Z-shot, I love going to the firing range, too. Of course, the best is shooting cans off a fence in yer backyard, but there's not many places where one can do that around here.
I like that you can rent different guns down and shoot them without having to buy 'em. Great way to check out a gun before shelling out the cash fer it.
Belle, you are WELCOME to come out to my house and plink away to your hearts content! I`ll set up the cans personally for you, though fruit can be quite entertaining as well.
Weekends in our valley on a pretty day are pretty darned funny. You hear reports of different weapons all up and down the valley as each family sharpens their skills. Every once in a while, you will notice a little different report and realise the Davis`s must have picked up a new rifle...then speculations abound on what calibur...the range, etc.....lol
Why do I get the feeling you are talking out of both sides of your mouth? Sometimes your posts make a lot of sense, and sometimes, like now, you seem to contradict yourself.
I don't have a problem with guns.
I have a problem with people thinking that using a gun solves the problem.
Big difference.
No, it should not prevent anybody the opportunity to responsibly purchase a gun for self protection.
I didn't say it should. Didn't even intimate it should. Not even a glossed over insinuation, either!
I lived in the bush in Alaska long enough to know what good a gun can be. In fact, I think that people who live in areas such as where you live or where I've lived out in the bush are foolish not to have a gun for protection...from wild animals of the mammalian sort...including human beings. Typically people in these situations have a whole lot of respect for life itself and comprehend how to handle themselves around guns...either because they were raised with the knowledge or learned the knowledge in a manner such as you have described.
Rascal's initial post in this thread speaks of having a gun for self protection/defense. In your first post it sounds as if you believe using a gun cannot solve the problem. Then it sounds like you think a gun is one solution for self protection. So in self protection, do you have an unloaded gun to use for intimidation with no thought of actually ever firing it?
Seems like a loaded gun fired in self defense can solve a huge problem.
Not trying to "pick on you", just got confused by what seemed like contradictions in your posts.
I do not recall some people being upset at the thought of individual people being armed on that thread, it certainly was not me, and I did not read P-mosh that way, but I will have to go back and look later. There were other issues involved in those discussions beyond individual gun ownership or carry laws.
No oppositon to owning guns from me, and yes I do own a couple. Even used them. Shoot, just last October I got busted in Germany for having a live .38 round in my ditty bag at the airport (checked luggage). 50€ fine (about $66). I was told by a big burley Polizei, (auf Deutsch) that "this is a serious problem having a bullet in Germany" (not a gun, just a bullet, mind you). You are a bad leebural HAP, bad leebural!
I do not raise the following issues to be contentious, I believe they are good, honest, need-to-be answered issues. Certainly appropriate to this discussion.
I do have a problem with carrying guns in certain places. Schools, government offices, sporting events, churches, places of mass assembly....... I feel the propensity for something going wrong, is too great there. Not so much by the person who is legally licensed to carry, but by accidental possibilities including but not limited to misuse, being disarmed in a scuffle, or someone other than a criminal being injured if for some reason the weapon is pulled out......
It would however be interesting to see a comparison of how often:
1) a person was successful in defending themselves with a gun when in "imminent danger"
2) a serious accidental injury or death ocurred due to mishandling of privately owned weapons
3) a legally owned weapon was used used in the commission of a crime of passion or anger.
It seems to me that every few YEARS we do hear of someone who kills an intruder in their home, legally, under "Make My Day" laws. It also seems to me, every few MONTHS we hear of an incident where a child is killed or hurt when they somehow get ahold of a parent's gun from the nightstand, or someone accidently fires a weapon not in the course of protecting (cleaning, demonstrating, etc.) Also every few months someone gets ticked off at someone else and fires off at the target of their anger (marital dispute, road rage etc.)
Does anyone have real numbers on these? Are they collected by any non-biased side?
I sometimes wonder if our society is fooling itself by thinking it is safer by arming itself. Sure some FEEL safer, but are they? If in immenent danger, would you have the time or would you have the ability, or would you have the nerves to use that weapon. this, versus using that time to get away (it is likely you are mainly afraid because the intruder is likely to be also armed). If indeed you are in close proximity to your danger, are you physically capable to prevail if your target gets close enough to try and wrestle the gun away?
I understand that current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment says you have the right to own. The 2nd does not say you HAVE to own, but do legitiimate statistics really support that more are safer because of private ownership? Are more alive because of it? I wonder.
I know I certainly felt quite safe strolling the late night streets of Dresden, Frankfurt, Eppstein, Siena, Rome, Venice, everywhere I could, we went down dark narrow blind alleys, corners of plazas, wherever. (I enjoyed seeing the "non-touristy" views.) There is not a lot of private gun ownership there, however there are many more visible police, carbineri etc. Many of them simply walk around in pairs, not in cars. Perhaps they are the difference. Would a larger police force (or a more visible one) be a better answer?
In response to my post immediately above, about "how many times"...
I found the following, which I believe to be as unbiased as I could find. I choose not to cite either the NRA or the Brady Foundation. The numbers are from a table entitled Odds of Death Due to Injury United States 2003 created by the National Safety Council.
They list far more ways of dying than I could ever have thought of! Since the table is not limited to firearms I consider it to be simply statistical data as opposed to "statistics used to prove a point". You can find it here"
I expect that the "legal Intervention" number includes police as well as citizen initiated occurances.
Obviously, the "assault by firearm" iincludes all homicide, not just "passion, roadrage etc. which I was looking for. I would still like to know how many deaths from firearms in that area occur. The second most frequent method of killing by assault is by "sharp object" at 2049.
The Suicide number by firearms (16907) is interesting, as the second most used method of suicide is hanging/intentional strangulation at 6635 and third is intentional self poisoning at 5462 occurrences. I wonder how many suicides would go unrealized without the ever-present availability of firearms. Perhaps many, perhaps not.
I find it interesting that twice as many deaths by accidental discharge occurred than deaths due to legal intervention.
I do however understand, that part of the thinking of owning firearms for protection is that a danger can be suppressed, hopefully without necessarily needing to fire a shot. These numbers do not show up here. (i.e. how many homicides did NOT occur because a citizen was armed) Locating valid and unbiased data on this is difficult it appears so far. Every side seems to have very different numbers to show proving their points in locations where carry/possession laws have been eased or tightened.
Usually when people are confused about my posts it is because they are either not fully reading what I have posted or they are taking leaps in logic I did not put in the post.
Although I own a number of weapons, including a 7.62 x 54 Dragunov I have found that the best weapon for home protection is a 12 ga. pump. Seriously, if you hear someone messing around outside at night, just open the door and "lock and load". A 12 ga. pump has a VERY distinct sound when you chamber a round and usually that sound alone is enough to make the little punks run like the wind without needing to fire a single round. :)
Rick
Edited because I can't type worth a crap this morning.
I have seen much different statistics hap. I am pretty sure that people/organizations (not you) shape the statistics to reflect the point that they want to make.
The statistics quoted in the state approved gun safety course I attended were very very different. One of the things those statistics DON`T show is that extremely few of those assault by fire arms, or accidental discharge are committed by people who are legally permitted to carry their weapon.
Trust me, one is made well aware of the consequences. Even though I have legally completed the requirements, I have yet to apply for the permit itself....all I can think about is the chance of missing and hurting someone else, not to mention how sobering the 100, 000 dollar legal fee, and possible prosecution and jail time if I am mistaken.
It just isn`t fair to lump the statistics of all of the law abiding citizens who follow the rules, with the criminals who are illegally obtaining guns and committing felonies.
My husband recieves a hunting/gun magazine that has a page or two every single issue of incidents where people have successfully managed to defend themselves with their weapon against an assailant or attacker.....many of them are women...shrug
You don`t hear about these because they are not widely reported outside of their area...not considered news worthey.
Oh and it IS illegal to carry a fire arm into the post office, into a school, into any court house or law enforcement center even when permitted to carry. There are many business who post signes on their doors prohibiting fire arms in their establishment, and a responsible gun owner is legally required to honor that.
I suspect that maybe you and I are closer in thought on this than it would appear on the surface hap.
There's never going to be an ideal resolution because there are evil and stupid and stupidly evil people in the world. Regardless, I support gun ownership and gun safety knowing full well that there will be idiots who abuse the right to own them. Same thing with driving a car, owning electrical appliances and having swimming pools. Are we going to ban those, too? :unsure:
Rascal, I'd love to come plink at your house!
WD, if I come home to Vixen packing one of my pistols, I'm going to have come find you. Don't you dare send that cartoon to my house and give her any ideas.
I have seen much different statistics hap. I am pretty sure that people/organizations (not you) shape the statistics to reflect the point that they want to make.
Which is why I did not cite statistics from the NRA or from Brady, or from a guy who wrote a book about the evils of anti-gun legislation. All of those groups (and some others) have vested interest in pro or con laws concerning the right to carry etc. For the purposes of this thread, I would prefer we did not go into the "RIGHT" to own/carry. I think that is a separate issue from the "ADVISABILITY" of doing so, which is more in keeping with the topic as it originated in the other thread. (Of course, this is not my thread, so it can go wherever someone takes it. I will stay in this direction however.) The data I posted seem to me to be cold hard numbers, due to the site they came from and the variety of data it also includes. (its a fascinating read to see numbers for some of the other causes of death)
What numbers have you seen that differ?
The statistics quoted in the state approved gun safety course I attended were very very different. One of the things those statistics DON`T show is that extremely few of those assault by fire arms, or accidental discharge are committed by people who are legally permitted to carry their weapon.
I agree with you on both these points. I mentioned thatthe "assault by firearm" stat was not what I wanted to know. Yes, it includes events by non-trained owners. I would like to see a breakdown of this number. I think most agree that in cases of gangs, intentional premeditated homicide and other similiar events, these will occur with or without rational citizens owning or even carrying. Further, I submit that number could drop by some degree if people DO carry, since there are SOME situations where the perp will hesitate, not knowing if the victim is armed, and some where an armed private citizen might intervene and prevent a homicide. Can you find non-biased numbers for such situations?
Your second point in this paragraph I also concur with, and it speaks well of the need to get proper training. No argument.
Trust me, one is made well aware of the consequences. Even though I have legally completed the requirements, I have yet to apply for the permit itself....all I can think about is the chance of missing and hurting someone else, not to mention how sobering the 100, 000 dollar legal fee, and possible prosecution and jail time if I am mistaken. TRUE
It just isn`t fair to lump the statistics of all of the law abiding citizens who follow the rules, with the criminals who are illegally obtaining guns and committing felonies.
Also true, to a degree. However I am not sure that all law abiding citizens who own guns follow the rules and also take safety courses and also take proper precautions to avoid accidental discharge, especially by minors. For that matter, taking those precautions to some degree makes personal protection arguments less useful. i.e. having a trigger lock or separating ammunition require time to counter when the need to protect is most immenent. Most of the accidental discharges, from what I have read are by unsupervised minors who acquired the weapon from a parent's or a friend's parent's location.
Unfortunately, otherwise law abiding citizens are almost as likely to commit homicidal crimes of passion/rage as any other group. Murder in anger can be committed by anyone, whether otherwise they are a criminal or not. How many assault deaths occur NOT in the course of, or related to, the commision of another criminal act? I do not know, and am asking.
My husband recieves a hunting/gun magazine that has a page or two every single issue of incidents where people have successfully managed to defend themselves with their weapon against an assailant or attacker.....many of them are women...shrug
I submit that the source you mention likely has a bias. I also do not know over what time period they gather their stories, or how many stories are on that "page or two"
You don`t hear about these because they are not widely reported outside of their area...not considered news worthey.
You don't hear about many gun related injuries or deaths outside the area in which they occur, probably in the same or perhaps a lesser proportion than those successful defense stories you mention.
Oh and it IS illegal to carry a fire arm into the post office, into a school, into any court house or law enforcement center even when permitted to carry. There are many business who post signes on their doors prohibiting fire arms in their establishment, and a responsible gun owner is legally required to honor that.
Yes, sorry I was not clear on that. I was in my mind remembering certain proposed laws that wished to change that. Believe it or not, some do not think there should be those limitations. I would suspect several of our faithful posters here included.
I suspect that maybe you and I are closer in thought on this than it would appear on the surface hap.
That probably is true, however I do not know what you mean by "on the surface". What do you think on the surface, my thoughts are? Until the start of this thread, I had not thought about what statistical data might show as to the advisability of owning/carrying. I still do not know the answers to most or perhaps any of that question. When all is weighed together, is there significant benefit to having a gun on your person? Is there significant benefit to having a gun in your home? How significant? At this point, I am not sure of the answer. When one weighs in the data on suicide by firearm, I admit I am leaning to the "too close to call" thought, or "pick-em".
~HAP
Note/reminder: the author makes no argument herein concerning the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution. All his comments should be taken in light of his question of whether or not it is advisable for a priivate citizen to own or carry firearms, and especially as supported by statistical data. Author further wishes to point out that he believes the definition of the words statistics, statistical data, bias and unbiased is a matter of interpretation in itself, and thusly may not lend itself to a true answer to his question. Any representation by others of his comments as being other than the aforementioned should be taken as "in the opinion of whoever makes such other representation". Respectfully, me.
My point was that there were episodes documented every month of people successfully defending themselves when under attack. In counter to your claim of every once in a long while you hear of a person successfully defending themselves.
Your statistics are entirely unapplicable to this discussion because the information encompasses all assaults with fire arms, almost entirely comprised of people who obtain and operate their fire arm illegally.
The likely hood of a crime of passion occuring when there is a three day wait for a gun purchased, accompanied witha back ground check....a several week wait plus a lot of money to take your safety course, plus the back ground and finger printing that is done when you actually apply for your permit, plus the money for the permit.
It is a long drawn out process. Crimes of passion are immediate, and those perpetrating them will use any object that comes to hand to get the job done.
We have people murdered with knives, axes, blunt force trauma, fists....even a chain saw in the middle of town once.
People who are passionately angry enough to kill don`t need a gun to do the job.
I repeat, my contention was that the vast majority of people with permits to carry guns are not to be feared, and they might save themselves or their loved ones one day from someone who isn`t as concientious in their observance of the laws and rights of others.
For us to be denied the right to protect ourselves because of the criminals with no regard for the laws or our safety is wrong.
I just don`t understand the mentality of people who feel it is better to remain helpless and allow the criminals to attack rape and kill at will.....
We have a constitutional right as well as I believe a duty to protect ourselves and our loved ones when and where ever possible.
I study karate, I make my children study, and they will all learn to be good marksman and handle a weapon safel in time.
I have dogs that warn when there are intruders....
I don`t understand where there is a problem with that.
Even here in the county we have unsolved murders...I know personally a woman that was found in the river half naked and dead....taken from her home in broad day light....the place where she should have felt safe. Maybe she wouldn`t have died had she known how to defend herself.
It has been four years, I doubt that they will catch the murderer(s)
I don`t want that to happen to my daughters or sons.
My point was that there were episodes documented every month of people successfully defending themselves when under attack. In counter to your claim of every once in a long while you hear of a person successfully defending themselves.
OK, point taken, yet that first statement of mine was before I looked at data and purely from my perspective of what I recall in news stories. MY data also does not include cases where injury, not death, took place in legal intervention cases.
Your statistics are entirely unapplicable to this discussion because the information encompasses all assaults with fire arms, almost entirely comprised of people who obtain and operate their fire arm illegally.
entirely unapplicable? can you show me data on legally acquired firearm related deaths? What percentage of total firearms are legally versus illegally obtained? what are the death (or injury) rates in each of those categories? I would expect the rates and hard numbers to be lower amongst legally owned, but how much lower?
The likely hood of a crime of passion occuring when there is a three day wait for a gun purchased, accompanied witha back ground check....a several week wait plus a lot of money to take your safety course, plus the back ground and finger printing that is done when you actually apply for your permit, plus the money for the permit.
Firearm assault in crimes of passion or rage can be committed with previously legally acquired weapons. THAT number would be interesting to know, simply because we are speaking of whether one is more likely or not to become a victim due to the (legal) ownership of guns.
It is a long drawn out process. Crimes of passion are immediate, and those perpetrating them will use any object that comes to hand to get the job done.
Yet in most cases, the use of other weapons is less likely to cause death isn't it? and requires more than a split second pull of a trigger to do so?
We have people murdered with knives, axes, blunt force trauma, fists....even a chain saw in the middle of town once.
People who are passionately angry enough to kill don`t need a gun to do the job.
I repeat, my contention was that the vast majority of people with permits to carry guns are not to be feared, and they might save themselves or their loved ones one day from someone who isn`t as concientious in their observance of the laws and rights of others.
True, I forgot your premise was that the vast majority of people with permits need not be feared. If that was all you wished to discuss on it, then sorry if I took the thread in another direction, towards the advisability of ownership and carry. I do not disagree with that stated premise of yours.
For us to be denied the right to protect ourselves because of the criminals with no regard for the laws or our safety is wrong.
In that case I misunderstood the purpose of the thread. I did not realize you were speaking only of that right. I do not have anything to say on that subject at this time. sorry for interjecting my thoughts on an unrelated topic (advisability of ownership) then. Forget everything I previously posted on this thread, it is indeed unapplicable to the topic and I have stricken it from the post.
Gosh Hap, I didn`t mean that we couldn`t converse and I wasn`t trying to control this thread...you can post whatever you want to. This is a discussion, not Cathy`s platform to preach what she believes..
I value and appreciate your opinion. I DID start this thread with the intent of showing why one wouldn`t need to be afraid of people arming themselves legally. I wondered if people were aware of just how carefull and thought provokng the process is. ....where it goes from there is anybodies business.
I thought we had moved on to discussing the advisability of allowing law abiding citizens to be armed.
I don`t understand why you are picking up your marbles and leaving. (btw Did you find any of the ones I seem to have lost?)
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
13
8
7
7
Popular Days
Jan 17
29
Jan 18
27
Jan 19
3
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 13 posts
HAPe4me 8 posts
Belle 7 posts
Tom Strange 7 posts
Popular Days
Jan 17 2007
29 posts
Jan 18 2007
27 posts
Jan 19 2007
3 posts
Belle
Z-shot, I love going to the firing range, too. Of course, the best is shooting cans off a fence in yer backyard, but there's not many places where one can do that around here.
I like that you can rent different guns down and shoot them without having to buy 'em. Great way to check out a gun before shelling out the cash fer it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
I would be in favor of it one if my sister in law didn't live here!
I don't want nuts to have guns. I think they forfeit their right if they are nuts...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Belle, you are WELCOME to come out to my house and plink away to your hearts content! I`ll set up the cans personally for you, though fruit can be quite entertaining as well.
Weekends in our valley on a pretty day are pretty darned funny. You hear reports of different weapons all up and down the valley as each family sharpens their skills. Every once in a while, you will notice a little different report and realise the Davis`s must have picked up a new rifle...then speculations abound on what calibur...the range, etc.....lol
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Cool,
Why do I get the feeling you are talking out of both sides of your mouth? Sometimes your posts make a lot of sense, and sometimes, like now, you seem to contradict yourself.
Rascal's initial post in this thread speaks of having a gun for self protection/defense. In your first post it sounds as if you believe using a gun cannot solve the problem. Then it sounds like you think a gun is one solution for self protection. So in self protection, do you have an unloaded gun to use for intimidation with no thought of actually ever firing it?
Seems like a loaded gun fired in self defense can solve a huge problem.
Not trying to "pick on you", just got confused by what seemed like contradictions in your posts.
Suda (who does not like being around guns)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
I do not recall some people being upset at the thought of individual people being armed on that thread, it certainly was not me, and I did not read P-mosh that way, but I will have to go back and look later. There were other issues involved in those discussions beyond individual gun ownership or carry laws.
No oppositon to owning guns from me, and yes I do own a couple. Even used them. Shoot, just last October I got busted in Germany for having a live .38 round in my ditty bag at the airport (checked luggage). 50€ fine (about $66). I was told by a big burley Polizei, (auf Deutsch) that "this is a serious problem having a bullet in Germany" (not a gun, just a bullet, mind you). You are a bad leebural HAP, bad leebural!
I do not raise the following issues to be contentious, I believe they are good, honest, need-to-be answered issues. Certainly appropriate to this discussion.
I do have a problem with carrying guns in certain places. Schools, government offices, sporting events, churches, places of mass assembly....... I feel the propensity for something going wrong, is too great there. Not so much by the person who is legally licensed to carry, but by accidental possibilities including but not limited to misuse, being disarmed in a scuffle, or someone other than a criminal being injured if for some reason the weapon is pulled out......
It would however be interesting to see a comparison of how often:
1) a person was successful in defending themselves with a gun when in "imminent danger"
2) a serious accidental injury or death ocurred due to mishandling of privately owned weapons
3) a legally owned weapon was used used in the commission of a crime of passion or anger.
It seems to me that every few YEARS we do hear of someone who kills an intruder in their home, legally, under "Make My Day" laws. It also seems to me, every few MONTHS we hear of an incident where a child is killed or hurt when they somehow get ahold of a parent's gun from the nightstand, or someone accidently fires a weapon not in the course of protecting (cleaning, demonstrating, etc.) Also every few months someone gets ticked off at someone else and fires off at the target of their anger (marital dispute, road rage etc.)
Does anyone have real numbers on these? Are they collected by any non-biased side?
I sometimes wonder if our society is fooling itself by thinking it is safer by arming itself. Sure some FEEL safer, but are they? If in immenent danger, would you have the time or would you have the ability, or would you have the nerves to use that weapon. this, versus using that time to get away (it is likely you are mainly afraid because the intruder is likely to be also armed). If indeed you are in close proximity to your danger, are you physically capable to prevail if your target gets close enough to try and wrestle the gun away?
I understand that current interpretation of the 2nd Amendment says you have the right to own. The 2nd does not say you HAVE to own, but do legitiimate statistics really support that more are safer because of private ownership? Are more alive because of it? I wonder.
I know I certainly felt quite safe strolling the late night streets of Dresden, Frankfurt, Eppstein, Siena, Rome, Venice, everywhere I could, we went down dark narrow blind alleys, corners of plazas, wherever. (I enjoyed seeing the "non-touristy" views.) There is not a lot of private gun ownership there, however there are many more visible police, carbineri etc. Many of them simply walk around in pairs, not in cars. Perhaps they are the difference. Would a larger police force (or a more visible one) be a better answer?
~HAP (edited for being off topic)
Edited by HAPe4meLink to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
In response to my post immediately above, about "how many times"...
I found the following, which I believe to be as unbiased as I could find. I choose not to cite either the NRA or the Brady Foundation. The numbers are from a table entitled Odds of Death Due to Injury United States 2003 created by the National Safety Council.
They list far more ways of dying than I could ever have thought of! Since the table is not limited to firearms I consider it to be simply statistical data as opposed to "statistics used to prove a point". You can find it here"
http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm
The numbers they show relative to this discussion are as follows for 2003 in the United States:
Legal Intervention involving firearms 347 occurances
Accidental death from firearms discharge 730
Intentional self-harm deaths by firearm 16907
Event of undetermined intent- firearm 232
Assault by firearm (intentional) 11920
I expect that the "legal Intervention" number includes police as well as citizen initiated occurances.
Obviously, the "assault by firearm" iincludes all homicide, not just "passion, roadrage etc. which I was looking for. I would still like to know how many deaths from firearms in that area occur. The second most frequent method of killing by assault is by "sharp object" at 2049.
The Suicide number by firearms (16907) is interesting, as the second most used method of suicide is hanging/intentional strangulation at 6635 and third is intentional self poisoning at 5462 occurrences. I wonder how many suicides would go unrealized without the ever-present availability of firearms. Perhaps many, perhaps not.
I find it interesting that twice as many deaths by accidental discharge occurred than deaths due to legal intervention.
I do however understand, that part of the thinking of owning firearms for protection is that a danger can be suppressed, hopefully without necessarily needing to fire a shot. These numbers do not show up here. (i.e. how many homicides did NOT occur because a citizen was armed) Locating valid and unbiased data on this is difficult it appears so far. Every side seems to have very different numbers to show proving their points in locations where carry/possession laws have been eased or tightened.
I'm going peacefully to bed now.
~HAP (edited for being off topic)
Edited by HAPe4meLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sushi
This is why *I* don't have a gun.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Usually when people are confused about my posts it is because they are either not fully reading what I have posted or they are taking leaps in logic I did not put in the post.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bluzeman
Although I own a number of weapons, including a 7.62 x 54 Dragunov I have found that the best weapon for home protection is a 12 ga. pump. Seriously, if you hear someone messing around outside at night, just open the door and "lock and load". A 12 ga. pump has a VERY distinct sound when you chamber a round and usually that sound alone is enough to make the little punks run like the wind without needing to fire a single round. :)
Rick
Edited because I can't type worth a crap this morning.
Edited by BluzemanLink to comment
Share on other sites
Sushi
This MORNING????
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bluzeman
OK, or any other morning. :)
Off to work now!
Rick
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
One reason not to have a gun! .......... Dogs Gone Wild.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I have seen much different statistics hap. I am pretty sure that people/organizations (not you) shape the statistics to reflect the point that they want to make.
The statistics quoted in the state approved gun safety course I attended were very very different. One of the things those statistics DON`T show is that extremely few of those assault by fire arms, or accidental discharge are committed by people who are legally permitted to carry their weapon.
Trust me, one is made well aware of the consequences. Even though I have legally completed the requirements, I have yet to apply for the permit itself....all I can think about is the chance of missing and hurting someone else, not to mention how sobering the 100, 000 dollar legal fee, and possible prosecution and jail time if I am mistaken.
It just isn`t fair to lump the statistics of all of the law abiding citizens who follow the rules, with the criminals who are illegally obtaining guns and committing felonies.
My husband recieves a hunting/gun magazine that has a page or two every single issue of incidents where people have successfully managed to defend themselves with their weapon against an assailant or attacker.....many of them are women...shrug
You don`t hear about these because they are not widely reported outside of their area...not considered news worthey.
Oh and it IS illegal to carry a fire arm into the post office, into a school, into any court house or law enforcement center even when permitted to carry. There are many business who post signes on their doors prohibiting fire arms in their establishment, and a responsible gun owner is legally required to honor that.
I suspect that maybe you and I are closer in thought on this than it would appear on the surface hap.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
There's never going to be an ideal resolution because there are evil and stupid and stupidly evil people in the world. Regardless, I support gun ownership and gun safety knowing full well that there will be idiots who abuse the right to own them. Same thing with driving a car, owning electrical appliances and having swimming pools. Are we going to ban those, too? :unsure:
Rascal, I'd love to come plink at your house!
WD, if I come home to Vixen packing one of my pistols, I'm going to have come find you. Don't you dare send that cartoon to my house and give her any ideas.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Great thread Rascal, and great posts! I agree with you on everything you have said. Cheers!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
Send it to Vixen? :o Where do you think I got it from? Apperantly you don't know what goes on at home while you are at work Belle.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
That probably is true, however I do not know what you mean by "on the surface". What do you think on the surface, my thoughts are? Until the start of this thread, I had not thought about what statistical data might show as to the advisability of owning/carrying. I still do not know the answers to most or perhaps any of that question. When all is weighed together, is there significant benefit to having a gun on your person? Is there significant benefit to having a gun in your home? How significant? At this point, I am not sure of the answer. When one weighs in the data on suicide by firearm, I admit I am leaning to the "too close to call" thought, or "pick-em".
~HAP
Note/reminder: the author makes no argument herein concerning the 2nd amendment to the US Constitution. All his comments should be taken in light of his question of whether or not it is advisable for a priivate citizen to own or carry firearms, and especially as supported by statistical data. Author further wishes to point out that he believes the definition of the words statistics, statistical data, bias and unbiased is a matter of interpretation in itself, and thusly may not lend itself to a true answer to his question. Any representation by others of his comments as being other than the aforementioned should be taken as "in the opinion of whoever makes such other representation". Respectfully, me.
Edited by HAPe4meLink to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
I am wondering...
Is US VP Dick Cheney a trained and legally licensed gun toter?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
OMIGOSH how hard can I laugh?????? thanks for the pick-me-up.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
My point was that there were episodes documented every month of people successfully defending themselves when under attack. In counter to your claim of every once in a long while you hear of a person successfully defending themselves.
Your statistics are entirely unapplicable to this discussion because the information encompasses all assaults with fire arms, almost entirely comprised of people who obtain and operate their fire arm illegally.
The likely hood of a crime of passion occuring when there is a three day wait for a gun purchased, accompanied witha back ground check....a several week wait plus a lot of money to take your safety course, plus the back ground and finger printing that is done when you actually apply for your permit, plus the money for the permit.
It is a long drawn out process. Crimes of passion are immediate, and those perpetrating them will use any object that comes to hand to get the job done.
We have people murdered with knives, axes, blunt force trauma, fists....even a chain saw in the middle of town once.
People who are passionately angry enough to kill don`t need a gun to do the job.
I repeat, my contention was that the vast majority of people with permits to carry guns are not to be feared, and they might save themselves or their loved ones one day from someone who isn`t as concientious in their observance of the laws and rights of others.
For us to be denied the right to protect ourselves because of the criminals with no regard for the laws or our safety is wrong.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
I just don`t understand the mentality of people who feel it is better to remain helpless and allow the criminals to attack rape and kill at will.....
We have a constitutional right as well as I believe a duty to protect ourselves and our loved ones when and where ever possible.
I study karate, I make my children study, and they will all learn to be good marksman and handle a weapon safel in time.
I have dogs that warn when there are intruders....
I don`t understand where there is a problem with that.
Even here in the county we have unsolved murders...I know personally a woman that was found in the river half naked and dead....taken from her home in broad day light....the place where she should have felt safe. Maybe she wouldn`t have died had she known how to defend herself.
It has been four years, I doubt that they will catch the murderer(s)
I don`t want that to happen to my daughters or sons.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
HAPe4me
~HAP
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
Hap, how can I be stricken, too? I haven't been able to find that feature in these new options.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Gosh Hap, I didn`t mean that we couldn`t converse and I wasn`t trying to control this thread...you can post whatever you want to. This is a discussion, not Cathy`s platform to preach what she believes..
I value and appreciate your opinion. I DID start this thread with the intent of showing why one wouldn`t need to be afraid of people arming themselves legally. I wondered if people were aware of just how carefull and thought provokng the process is. ....where it goes from there is anybodies business.
I thought we had moved on to discussing the advisability of allowing law abiding citizens to be armed.
I don`t understand why you are picking up your marbles and leaving. (btw Did you find any of the ones I seem to have lost?)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.