Bumpy, in a sense, I am coming to the conclusion that people can't get along.. perhaps we weren't made that way.
Most people seem to be able to set aside differences, when it is in their own interest..
A few can't, even when their life depends on it
Don't be negative! Only kidding, drive it home! My problem is, I always knew I could never join a club that would have me as a member! I just don't fit in. CES when it began looked like a venue you didn't have to become a member. Heck, I haven't been to a fellowship in 20 years! I think this God business has always been forsaken because you can't put it in a bottle and just shake it. It's spiritual, kind, understanding, you know the fruits of the spirit thing. When it becomes a business, it becomes self-centred. Most people, I think want to get together that believe the same thing, support each other, etc., but when the law and order boys take over, sheeet happens. It's not really that complicated, but I think most people on this site are here for communication and support without the stress. Besides, I think were all wise enough after what we've seen? N'est pas?
That bit being said, does anyone on this forum really want to go beyond talking on GreaseSpot? This is a safe place. Everyone can laugh, cry, condemn, condone, justify, rant and rave, safely at home behind their computer. There's little risk. Maybe people are just gettiing too old and they're tired of trying to resurrect the illusion of us all getting along as one big happy family?
Why is it that folks who feel that GSC may not be their particular "thing" always want to climb up on some pedastal somewhere and foist their thoughts and ideas about what GSC is and isn't to them upon others???
Bumpy (and the others like you who do not think of GSC as a multi-diminsional community): IF GSC AINT YOUR CUP OF TEA, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE... but please spare us your condescending sermons... we can easily 'get' from your posts that nobody's opinion here matters as much as your own, that's pretty evident. Just go away if you don't like it here... but please spare us your condescension OK?
The reason I feel this way is because I don't feel like GSC is anyplace that I "have to move on from"... I didn't come here seeking anything other than reconnecting with friends from long ago. And cyberspace makes it easy to stay in touch not only on an individual basis but also as a community... there may be folks who are just passing through, as you and others have suggested is the purpose of this place, and they do pass through... but not everyone is here for the same reason... so again, please spare us your thoughts on that matter... it's really tiresome and takes away from any sense of credibility of honesty that I may have given you the benefit of previously.
Bumpy -- Don't pay any attention to Tom Strange. He is WAY too sensitive.
You're right. So what DO people want? I think we all want people who don't take themselves too seriously. That's what's compelling about the GSCafe. But ironically, we do want them to be serious enough to be held accountable and humble enough to suck it up when they get off base. Which goes back to the initial post on this thread....leaders overestimating themselves.
The thing is... when people get off base, it's hard to respond in love yet with firm boundaries. It's hard to say, "I disagree, I think that is hurtful, and I love you but I cannot trust you right now." Our tendency is to deride, file harrassment, defamation suits and call for people's head on a stick.
What if KG came on this site and apologized to everyone here? Not some half-*** apology, but a real contrite accounting of wrongs? Would it be accepted? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because lots of people don't know the difference between forgiveness (letting it go) and trust (keeping healthy boundaries).
Excuse me, if that is too psychological for some of you who don't believe in psychology.
Tonto -- so did you stay home and watch Bonanza or Lone Ranger? I had to miss Bionic Woman on Wednesday nights, and Disney on Sunday nights. Bummer.
I think I'll make some popcorn, and sell front row tickets to this one!!
This laugh is for you...pass the peanuts!
Picture yourself on a terrace overlooking a beautiful African beach, it’s another PERFECT day like all the ones before. The ocean is deep blue, your workers are well tanned, all busy about their daily activities. All seems tranquil when you hear a strange noise behind you in the house...
You walk in but suddenly the room has changed! This is not your house, you don’t recognize anyone in the room, but there are so many white haired or dyed middle-aged people sitting and walking about. The decor is dated, looks like something out of the ‘70’s or maybe 80’s and the people all have name tags for some reason. Suddenly next to you appears this beautiful young girl in a white nurses dress. But this is a real beautiful dress, cut just right and filled perfectly especially where the buttons should be...But before you can take my eyes from her, she smiles and says ‘welcome Bumpy’, welcome to the TWI-lite zone...Oh my God!
She begins to explain to me that this is a kind of re-hab centre for all sorts of visitors but many of them are volatile so be careful. Most of them come from a particular time and place that was not such a comfortable memory and they are trying to forget, meet new people and in the process do a LOT of talking! But the name tags are all faded. I ask her, why is that? They are former identification markings sort of Orwellian, she says. It was a part of their youth and they can’t seem to take them off. Also they are very proud of them. Each one knows the time and place the other one came from, but don’t ask them to reveal anything. They are very suspecting, especially the one with the roller skates over there.
Strange I say, why are they here and what are they looking for, are they on drugs? I can’t keep my eyes off her for too long, she’s beginning to remind me of someone? She bends over to pick up a discarded yellow piece of paper. Looks like an old posting, when you put your thoughts down on paper. She says, she isn’t quite sure, but many of them come and go through different rooms. It’s sort of like a maze and many of them scurry about all the time, leaving little bits of paper like the one I just picked up.
But again I have to ask, what are they doing here? Is it a retirement home, do they play bridge, backgammon?
Suddenly there is a bang. She says she has to go, one of her patients needs her medication, she lost her kids and doesn’t know where to find them. I turn around to see a smiling gentleman looking at me. He says, hello, you’re Bumpy aren’t you? How ‘bout having a drink at the bar, I have some funny stories to tell.
Bumpy -- Don't pay any attention to Tom Strange. He is WAY too sensitive.
....So what DO people want? .......
What if KG came on this site and apologized to everyone here? Not some half-*** apology, but a real contrite accounting of wrongs? Would it be accepted? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because lots of people don't know the difference between forgiveness (letting it go) and trust (keeping healthy boundaries).
I haven't followed this thread closely enough to comment on anything more than the surface of this statement.
I find it difficult to say anything definitive about believing a post made on this or any other forum.
Wh? - Because it's easy to post and apology and make it sound heartfelt - for that matter, the same can be said of a real life confession and contrite sublimation.
As I see it, a person has to be observed over a period of time for trust to be won. If I were around KG and saw her change - then I would be prone to begin trust. However, we all know that once trust has been breached it is a hard road back and suspicion is rampant.
That said, I will speak only for myself in saying that I don't need KG's request for forgiveness. (Assuming she had wronged me personally -which hasn't happened at all.) If I were hurt by her I would take whatever time (months or years) necessary to forgive her on my own. Without a heartfelt apology I would definitely NEVER trust her (or any other person in the same position) again. Trust is built one action at a time. Each time a boundary is observed and maintained the relationship gets closer to healing. BUT - that can't even begin until the wrong doer becomes a bit humble - and even then the building of trust is already starting in a hole instead of level ground.
I just dont' see how this can happen here in cyber space. Words on a page are one thing - but I still believe that trust and forgiveness need to happen in the real 3-D world.
There is no universally-accepted opinion of the posters.
(There are even a few people who are convinced vpw never wronged anyone.)
Please try not to be accusatory, vicious or otherwise rude in posting."
You're right. So what DO people want? I think we all want people who don't take themselves too seriously. That's what's compelling about the GSCafe. But ironically, we do want them to be serious enough to be held accountable and humble enough to suck it up when they get off base. Which goes back to the initial post on this thread....leaders overestimating themselves.
The thing is... when people get off base, it's hard to respond in love yet with firm boundaries. It's hard to say, "I disagree, I think that is hurtful, and I love you but I cannot trust you right now." Our tendency is to deride, file harrassment, defamation suits and call for people's head on a stick.
What if KG came on this site and apologized to everyone here? Not some half-*** apology, but a real contrite accounting of wrongs? Would it be accepted? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because lots of people don't know the difference between forgiveness (letting it go) and trust (keeping healthy boundaries).
While I expect that some people would not accept it,
I would be shocked if some people did NOT accept it-
so long as it was perceived as coming from the heart,
springing from sufficient reflection and full contrition of the will.
No consensus here, remember?
Excuse me, if that is too psychological for some of you who don't believe in psychology.
Tonto -- so did you stay home and watch Bonanza or Lone Ranger? I had to miss Bionic Woman on Wednesday nights, and Disney on Sunday nights. Bummer.
I think God can redeem anything - in the sense or definition of 'restoration,' to bring something back to it's former condition or to it's full potential. I'll use the word redeem because it caries the sense of restoring by paying a price. I don't think God wants a bunch of westernized robots for Jesus, with twi mustaches, but instead wants to redeem us as we are, including our uniqueness and weakness. Look at all the colorful qualities of the people in the Bible - God didn't turn David "into" a Moses, they were David and Moses, completely different but beloved in God's eyes.
People at CES (like everywhere else) are 'broken' in a broken world and full of weaknesses. But at CES and formerly TWI, I have met some of the most passionate and giving people I've ever met in my life. Yes I know people got screwed in the WOW program, but I've never met anyone outside of that who would jump in a car with $10 or hitchhike across the country to go start a fellowship. I'm not saying I approve of or appreciate the program, I'm just talking about the heart of the people. I still feel that way.
I know people have abused PP, but I know people who haven't. I know church people who don't care and will never try - even though doing it the 'right way' could bring huge deliverance to people, most just really don't care to pursue a life spending the time to even see if it's possible. I know people in CES, CI, AG and other places that go out on a limb to TRY and go where they think the Lord is leading them.
I'm not trying to romanticize the situation, I just have to tell you that there are some people involved in CES that would give you their last dollar, plane ticket, gas money or thanksgiving dinner (you know who you are!) to see someone be blessed and to try and heed God's call. When I put aside the times I've seen wrong done that's what I think of when I think of people I've met through CES. But don't get me wrong, God does not ~NEED~ CES, but I think it is His wonderful heart to take whatever we bring to the table and make it beautiful. If we bring a bucket of dirt He will use it for roses.
There is a website called www.brokenwalls.com run by Christians that are aboriginal people's of the Americas. One of their CD's is drum worship with songs like, "Jesus died that I might live," and, "Holy is Jahweh." God did not "convert" them to look and act like us, but REDEEMED their hearts and culture for him.
I read the quote from the CD and think about the areas I think CES has fallen down in it's philosophy -
"It brings much liberty to those bound in religious thinking when the truth is placed before them. True worship comes from the heart (not the drum, guitar or any instrument) and when this is explained and demonstrated in worship, a wonderful liberty prevails with by products of restoration of self respect and dignity. “They shall know the truth and the truth shall set them free.” I pray that those whose hearts have been tainted by the “colonial gospel” that says, “You must give up your sin stained culture and embrace my sin stained culture in order to know Jesus,” won’t stop you from reaching those out there who are lost and dying."
the “colonial gospel” that says, “You must give up your sin stained culture and embrace my sin stained culture in order to know Jesus,”
It's not BECAUSE of our particular sin stained culture that people are lead to Jesus, it's IN SPITE OF IT by God's mercy and grace.
It's not really just about 'people' or an 'organization' - we're supposed to assemble together, and there's no such thing as an org without people. The hearts of the people together are a community and a community has a culture. People were drawn to CES for good and bad reasons, but I think mainly because they saw a place that looked like it could be home for the kind of person they were, to more fully express their walk with God and explore a lifetime of worship, working together to SUPPORT EACH OTHER to fully manifest their individual call by the Lord and placement into his body.
I know a charismatic Catholic who has been to every denomination and 'get's it' as far as you or I might consider 'right doctrine,' but he found his home in the catholic church as a deacon, lay minister for 'lifer' prisoners, and feeding the poor through catholic missions on his business trips to India. God bless him, and thank God the body is so diverse that there's a home for everyone who seeks the face of God 'early' as it says in Psalms. They will find Him DESPITE the sin stained culture that surrounds them.
I would love to see the culture of CES brought before the altar as a sacrifice - a willingness to give up the whole package to get a better one back.
Sometimes it just feels like being a little kid clutching a penny in our fist and God wants to hand us a fiver but we're just not letting go of our shiny penny. Seems like a lot to let go of before we can get something better, but it really just seems that way. What God offers is always better than what we can scrape together with our little programs.
Broken one, that was the most moving post that I have ever read. You put into words what I have been seeing, but not exactly understanding in my journey since twi.
You explain beautifully why it is not a good idea to completely discount any group or denomination....ie God works in whatever medium we will give him access.
Holy Smoke who used to be newcomer, hello again. As an aside to you....I'm one who doesn't 'believe in psychology' (man's wisdom) to be able to tell me more than the Word (God's wisdom) tells me about who Man is, how he should live and how he changes. (But that's a whole 'nother thread so let's not derail this one. PM me if you care to, or start another thread. If you have an interest in that field, I encourage you to check out its Christian and non-Christian experts who have left it and why: Tana Dineen, Paul Vitz, Richard Gatz, Tom Szasz, Lisa Bazler, etc.)
And to all.....
As for accepting KG’s apology, I very much look forward to and will be thrilled to accept ANY of the CES folks' 'real, contrite, accounting of wrongs,' 'coming from the heart, springing from sufficient reflection and full contrition of the will' and their subsequent requests for forgiveness. I am among quite a few folks who have been specifically praying for that very thing for many years. Not because I need to give them my forgiveness. But because they need to realize their need of asking for it!
Until they change.....they will continue to do evil (not be evil; do evil).
When they change...they will make many apologies and I hope everyone accepts them. (I say hope, since when I began asking people for forgiveness, not all said Yes. One said she wished she were spitting on my grave....I took that as a No.)
But, as dooj said, trust is another thing.....
Trust is earned.......
==I see God requiring me to forgive.
==I see God requiring me to choose 'leaders' from those who live as I and II Timothy describe.
==I don't, however, see God requiring me to trust anyone but Him.
So, after the apologies begin, I shall consider trusting again......one day at a time.
NOTE: After years of error, an apology is a wonderful and obviously necessary beginning......but to change ingrained habits takes time, ongoing humility, much courage, and constant help from people who love you enough to continue to point out when you’re 'doing it again'....(which won't, I might add, be those people who were doing it with you in the first place.)
Why is it that folks who feel that GSC may not be their particular "thing" always want to climb up on some pedastal somewhere and foist their thoughts and ideas about what GSC is and isn't to them upon others???
Bumpy (and the others like you who do not think of GSC as a multi-diminsional community): IF GSC AINT YOUR CUP OF TEA, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE... but please spare us your condescending sermons... we can easily 'get' from your posts that nobody's opinion here matters as much as your own, that's pretty evident. Just go away if you don't like it here... but please spare us your condescension OK?
so again, please spare us your thoughts on that matter... it's really tiresome and takes away from any sense of credibility of honesty that I may have given you the benefit of previously.
Hey, Wordwolf. How in the world can you insinuate to me I'm being rude when something like the above -- IN CAPITAL LETTERS< NO LESS -- is written to Bumpy who was absolutely NOT being condescending, but was simply expressing his opinion and observation?
I can make an observation about people in this cafe. I'm allowed, and so is Bumpy. Sometimes newcomers have a different way of seeing things.
Therebutforgreace, hi. I agree with you and that's what I was trying to say in my post. That forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. Forgiveness is about the past; trust is about the future.
When forgiveness truly takes place, we should not continually bring up past wrongs or try to find fault with the person who is truly trying to regain trust. We don't blindly follow those people, but IMO we keep out eyes and ears open, our mouths shut and let them stand or fall on their new realizations and accountability.
If we say we will NEVER trust someone again (like I have heard said), without giving them the time to change, heal, etc... then we freeze people in time. We then totally negate the gospel because that is what the gospel is all about -- changing and transforming people!
That being said, I do believe in the basics of psychology, not defined as "man's wisdom" but as it pertains to the legitimate study of the brain and the mind. I know we have some quacks and abuse of psychiatric drugs, etc. out there. But God created the psyche, just like he created the physiology of our bodies. I would recommend "Healing Life's Deepest Hurts" by Dr. Ed Smith, a pastoral counselor, who combines basic psychological principles with prayer and heart healing from God's Word. It works. But if people are just reading God's word with a screwed up mind -- that doesn't work.
Yeah, I may start another thread on that later, gracias.
Hey, Wordwolf. How in the world can you insinuate to me I'm being rude when something like the above -- IN CAPITAL LETTERS< NO LESS -- is written to Bumpy who was absolutely NOT being condescending, but was simply expressing his opinion and observation?
I can make an observation about people in this cafe. I'm allowed, and so is Bumpy. Sometimes newcomers have a different way of seeing things.
I insinuated nothing about you.
I agreed with Tom's points, thus disagreed with you they lacked merit.
If you review my post, you'll see the word "rude" appears in quotes, right after a link.
That's a link to a sticky at the forum, which gives advice.
The main point was what I quoted and then repeated-
that there's no consensus, no ONE opinion, of posters.
( I still recommend reading the sticky.)
A number of times, new people arrive, decide we're all a homogenous lot,
and pass judgement on us. Looked a lot like something that was happening here.
Some might see Bumpy as doing exactly that.
It's a situation common enough to have gotten tiresome here.
You and Bumpy are entitled to your opinions. Mind you, some posters will rebut you if
they think the facts disagree with you. That's what I did there.
I also try not to gloss over anyone's posts when possible, which is another mistake
But if people are just reading God's word with a screwed up mind -- that doesn't work.
well dam.n that's something i've never heard
sounds like we can toss mostly everyone ;) ha ha haha ha haha ha h staring with veepee ha ha ha ha ha ha ha followed my geer and well i could go on and on :)
Seeing's how people in the Bible with screwed up minds (and some with dead minds!!!) heard Jesus, the Living Word speak His words like, "Come forth!".....and....well, that worked!!
So, i'd say HS must have meant something else....let's wait and see.
Sure, Christ can raise the dead (phycially or psychologically). PTL!
I mean that if we approach the Word with a Pharisee (or otherwise screwed-up) mentality -- let's memorize this, let's club people with that -- and not a heart for God or people, there is no change. No healing, no humility, no sincere apologies - you can forget all that. What you get are arrogant, paranoid delusions of grandeur. (hence, back to the sticky)
In fact, you get a real potential for damage, because the understanding and compassion is not there. I think that legalistic, damage history is what most of us here have in common. ???
Those who changed in gospels and Acts were those who were either convinced by signs and wonders (maybe blinded like Saul) or like Nicodemus (sp) and Lazarus simply had a heart for God and loved Jesus. Those who did not believe were not lacking in a knowledge or hearing of Scripture... they'd read it countless times! Reading or hearing it was not the issue. They didn't know Jesus.
Likewise, just reading scriptures today is not enough to bring healing to some people. I think hearts (psyches) usually have to be plowed up and ready before the Word can truly be heard or fully understood or applied in a person's life. Parable of the sower.... Not sayin Christ can't raise up corn out of a rock. I'm just saying that would be a miraculous exception.
That bit being said, does anyone on this forum really want to go beyond talking on GreaseSpot? This is a safe place. Everyone can laugh, cry, condemn, condone, justify, rant and rave, safely at home behind their computer. There's little risk. Maybe people are just gettiing too old and they're tired of trying to resurrect the illusion of us all getting along as one big happy family?
Glad HS enjoyed the stage! Read again the Oct. 12 posting about the do's and don'ts of the site. I will try and be more careful, even though I'm not concerned who reads these posts. The more the merrier. Certainly it never crosssed my mind that I was trying to blend everyone together!, maybe this happened before my time? I can certainly feel a lot of individual feeling and opinions out there. I think that's vital otherwise you're back in the box in another structure you don't want to be in.
As the forum is to overestimate themselves, I would conclude it has more to do with CES at the moment? Do you have the same opinion of twi? Did they not go way beyond just overestimating themselves through the rampant abuse I am hearing about? You see, even though I took 'the class' and a few others, until the last few days I had no idea what was going on or this forum existed. The posts I read about, how people's lives have been basically destroyed or at least dismembered are NOT funny stories!
That being said, can anyone go beyond Bible speak and think of ANY organization that gives you the Word as you want to hear it without "having to belong"? If you read my posts, this is the problem I have. I want to love people, but not go to meetings! Play a game of golf, help me with my understanding to grow as a human being, but no more colon cleanses!
Now, who knows how to get an Islamic microphone off the Moskie?
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And the ex-way or way "leaders" who think they can fix everything, heroically jump in the fray, waving a bible, trying to restore "order"..
"you'll be sorrrry.."
I saw one bar fight once.. they DO hit the guy with glasses..
they'd hit a guy waving a bible as well..
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Bumpy
Don't be negative! Only kidding, drive it home! My problem is, I always knew I could never join a club that would have me as a member! I just don't fit in. CES when it began looked like a venue you didn't have to become a member. Heck, I haven't been to a fellowship in 20 years! I think this God business has always been forsaken because you can't put it in a bottle and just shake it. It's spiritual, kind, understanding, you know the fruits of the spirit thing. When it becomes a business, it becomes self-centred. Most people, I think want to get together that believe the same thing, support each other, etc., but when the law and order boys take over, sheeet happens. It's not really that complicated, but I think most people on this site are here for communication and support without the stress. Besides, I think were all wise enough after what we've seen? N'est pas?
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Tom Strange
Why is it that folks who feel that GSC may not be their particular "thing" always want to climb up on some pedastal somewhere and foist their thoughts and ideas about what GSC is and isn't to them upon others???
Bumpy (and the others like you who do not think of GSC as a multi-diminsional community): IF GSC AINT YOUR CUP OF TEA, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE... but please spare us your condescending sermons... we can easily 'get' from your posts that nobody's opinion here matters as much as your own, that's pretty evident. Just go away if you don't like it here... but please spare us your condescension OK?
The reason I feel this way is because I don't feel like GSC is anyplace that I "have to move on from"... I didn't come here seeking anything other than reconnecting with friends from long ago. And cyberspace makes it easy to stay in touch not only on an individual basis but also as a community... there may be folks who are just passing through, as you and others have suggested is the purpose of this place, and they do pass through... but not everyone is here for the same reason... so again, please spare us your thoughts on that matter... it's really tiresome and takes away from any sense of credibility of honesty that I may have given you the benefit of previously.
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Holy Smoke
Bumpy -- Don't pay any attention to Tom Strange. He is WAY too sensitive.
You're right. So what DO people want? I think we all want people who don't take themselves too seriously. That's what's compelling about the GSCafe. But ironically, we do want them to be serious enough to be held accountable and humble enough to suck it up when they get off base. Which goes back to the initial post on this thread....leaders overestimating themselves.
The thing is... when people get off base, it's hard to respond in love yet with firm boundaries. It's hard to say, "I disagree, I think that is hurtful, and I love you but I cannot trust you right now." Our tendency is to deride, file harrassment, defamation suits and call for people's head on a stick.
What if KG came on this site and apologized to everyone here? Not some half-*** apology, but a real contrite accounting of wrongs? Would it be accepted? I seriously doubt it. Why? Because lots of people don't know the difference between forgiveness (letting it go) and trust (keeping healthy boundaries).
Excuse me, if that is too psychological for some of you who don't believe in psychology.
Tonto -- so did you stay home and watch Bonanza or Lone Ranger? I had to miss Bionic Woman on Wednesday nights, and Disney on Sunday nights. Bummer.
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dmiller
I think I'll make some popcorn, and sell front row tickets to this one!!
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Bumpy
Picture yourself on a terrace overlooking a beautiful African beach, it’s another PERFECT day like all the ones before. The ocean is deep blue, your workers are well tanned, all busy about their daily activities. All seems tranquil when you hear a strange noise behind you in the house...
You walk in but suddenly the room has changed! This is not your house, you don’t recognize anyone in the room, but there are so many white haired or dyed middle-aged people sitting and walking about. The decor is dated, looks like something out of the ‘70’s or maybe 80’s and the people all have name tags for some reason. Suddenly next to you appears this beautiful young girl in a white nurses dress. But this is a real beautiful dress, cut just right and filled perfectly especially where the buttons should be...But before you can take my eyes from her, she smiles and says ‘welcome Bumpy’, welcome to the TWI-lite zone...Oh my God!
She begins to explain to me that this is a kind of re-hab centre for all sorts of visitors but many of them are volatile so be careful. Most of them come from a particular time and place that was not such a comfortable memory and they are trying to forget, meet new people and in the process do a LOT of talking! But the name tags are all faded. I ask her, why is that? They are former identification markings sort of Orwellian, she says. It was a part of their youth and they can’t seem to take them off. Also they are very proud of them. Each one knows the time and place the other one came from, but don’t ask them to reveal anything. They are very suspecting, especially the one with the roller skates over there.
Strange I say, why are they here and what are they looking for, are they on drugs? I can’t keep my eyes off her for too long, she’s beginning to remind me of someone? She bends over to pick up a discarded yellow piece of paper. Looks like an old posting, when you put your thoughts down on paper. She says, she isn’t quite sure, but many of them come and go through different rooms. It’s sort of like a maze and many of them scurry about all the time, leaving little bits of paper like the one I just picked up.
But again I have to ask, what are they doing here? Is it a retirement home, do they play bridge, backgammon?
Suddenly there is a bang. She says she has to go, one of her patients needs her medication, she lost her kids and doesn’t know where to find them. I turn around to see a smiling gentleman looking at me. He says, hello, you’re Bumpy aren’t you? How ‘bout having a drink at the bar, I have some funny stories to tell.
‘
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doojable
I haven't followed this thread closely enough to comment on anything more than the surface of this statement.
I find it difficult to say anything definitive about believing a post made on this or any other forum.
Wh? - Because it's easy to post and apology and make it sound heartfelt - for that matter, the same can be said of a real life confession and contrite sublimation.
As I see it, a person has to be observed over a period of time for trust to be won. If I were around KG and saw her change - then I would be prone to begin trust. However, we all know that once trust has been breached it is a hard road back and suspicion is rampant.
That said, I will speak only for myself in saying that I don't need KG's request for forgiveness. (Assuming she had wronged me personally -which hasn't happened at all.) If I were hurt by her I would take whatever time (months or years) necessary to forgive her on my own. Without a heartfelt apology I would definitely NEVER trust her (or any other person in the same position) again. Trust is built one action at a time. Each time a boundary is observed and maintained the relationship gets closer to healing. BUT - that can't even begin until the wrong doer becomes a bit humble - and even then the building of trust is already starting in a hole instead of level ground.
I just dont' see how this can happen here in cyber space. Words on a page are one thing - but I still believe that trust and forgiveness need to happen in the real 3-D world.
Carry on....
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WordWolf
I disagree on both counts.
Furthermore, I'll add he had 2 legitimate points which were glossed over:
A) some people arrive and are SWIFT to decide they know us all
B) some people arrive and operate under a delusion there's a consensus here
The main consensus is that there is NO consensus on virtually ANY issue.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913
"There is no one single opinion of the posters.
There is no universally-accepted opinion of the posters.
(There are even a few people who are convinced vpw never wronged anyone.)
Please try not to be accusatory, vicious or otherwise rude in posting."
While I expect that some people would not accept it,I would be shocked if some people did NOT accept it-
so long as it was perceived as coming from the heart,
springing from sufficient reflection and full contrition of the will.
No consensus here, remember?
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rascal
Broken one, that was the most moving post that I have ever read. You put into words what I have been seeing, but not exactly understanding in my journey since twi.
You explain beautifully why it is not a good idea to completely discount any group or denomination....ie God works in whatever medium we will give him access.
Thanks
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therebutforgrace
Holy Smoke who used to be newcomer, hello again. As an aside to you....I'm one who doesn't 'believe in psychology' (man's wisdom) to be able to tell me more than the Word (God's wisdom) tells me about who Man is, how he should live and how he changes. (But that's a whole 'nother thread so let's not derail this one. PM me if you care to, or start another thread. If you have an interest in that field, I encourage you to check out its Christian and non-Christian experts who have left it and why: Tana Dineen, Paul Vitz, Richard Gatz, Tom Szasz, Lisa Bazler, etc.)
And to all.....
As for accepting KG’s apology, I very much look forward to and will be thrilled to accept ANY of the CES folks' 'real, contrite, accounting of wrongs,' 'coming from the heart, springing from sufficient reflection and full contrition of the will' and their subsequent requests for forgiveness. I am among quite a few folks who have been specifically praying for that very thing for many years. Not because I need to give them my forgiveness. But because they need to realize their need of asking for it!
Until they change.....they will continue to do evil (not be evil; do evil).
When they change...they will make many apologies and I hope everyone accepts them. (I say hope, since when I began asking people for forgiveness, not all said Yes. One said she wished she were spitting on my grave....I took that as a No.)
But, as dooj said, trust is another thing.....
Trust is earned.......
==I see God requiring me to forgive.
==I see God requiring me to choose 'leaders' from those who live as I and II Timothy describe.
==I don't, however, see God requiring me to trust anyone but Him.
So, after the apologies begin, I shall consider trusting again......one day at a time.
NOTE: After years of error, an apology is a wonderful and obviously necessary beginning......but to change ingrained habits takes time, ongoing humility, much courage, and constant help from people who love you enough to continue to point out when you’re 'doing it again'....(which won't, I might add, be those people who were doing it with you in the first place.)
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Holy Smoke
Hey, Wordwolf. How in the world can you insinuate to me I'm being rude when something like the above -- IN CAPITAL LETTERS< NO LESS -- is written to Bumpy who was absolutely NOT being condescending, but was simply expressing his opinion and observation?
I can make an observation about people in this cafe. I'm allowed, and so is Bumpy. Sometimes newcomers have a different way of seeing things.
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Holy Smoke
Therebutforgreace, hi. I agree with you and that's what I was trying to say in my post. That forgiveness and trust are not the same thing. Forgiveness is about the past; trust is about the future.
When forgiveness truly takes place, we should not continually bring up past wrongs or try to find fault with the person who is truly trying to regain trust. We don't blindly follow those people, but IMO we keep out eyes and ears open, our mouths shut and let them stand or fall on their new realizations and accountability.
If we say we will NEVER trust someone again (like I have heard said), without giving them the time to change, heal, etc... then we freeze people in time. We then totally negate the gospel because that is what the gospel is all about -- changing and transforming people!
That being said, I do believe in the basics of psychology, not defined as "man's wisdom" but as it pertains to the legitimate study of the brain and the mind. I know we have some quacks and abuse of psychiatric drugs, etc. out there. But God created the psyche, just like he created the physiology of our bodies. I would recommend "Healing Life's Deepest Hurts" by Dr. Ed Smith, a pastoral counselor, who combines basic psychological principles with prayer and heart healing from God's Word. It works. But if people are just reading God's word with a screwed up mind -- that doesn't work.
Yeah, I may start another thread on that later, gracias.
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WordWolf
I insinuated nothing about you.
I agreed with Tom's points, thus disagreed with you they lacked merit.
If you review my post, you'll see the word "rude" appears in quotes, right after a link.
That's a link to a sticky at the forum, which gives advice.
The main point was what I quoted and then repeated-
that there's no consensus, no ONE opinion, of posters.
( I still recommend reading the sticky.)
A number of times, new people arrive, decide we're all a homogenous lot,
and pass judgement on us. Looked a lot like something that was happening here.
Some might see Bumpy as doing exactly that.
It's a situation common enough to have gotten tiresome here.
You and Bumpy are entitled to your opinions. Mind you, some posters will rebut you if
they think the facts disagree with you. That's what I did there.
I also try not to gloss over anyone's posts when possible, which is another mistake
that's easy to make.
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therebutforgrace
quick question...what's a sticky?
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Holy Smoke
BTW, Bumpy, I really enjoyed your screenplay. - HS :) Esp. the white dress and the roller skates.
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excathedra
well dam.n that's something i've never heard
sounds like we can toss mostly everyone ;) ha ha haha ha haha ha h staring with veepee ha ha ha ha ha ha ha followed my geer and well i could go on and on :)
oh and me
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therebutforgrace
followed by me, too, excathie!
Seeing's how people in the Bible with screwed up minds (and some with dead minds!!!) heard Jesus, the Living Word speak His words like, "Come forth!".....and....well, that worked!!
So, i'd say HS must have meant something else....let's wait and see.
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dmiller
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913
Grace -- the above is the sticky mentioned by WordWolf.
It's a topic that is "pinned" to the top of a forum page.
It's kept in place at the top of the page, because it is important,
and by staying at the top of the page, it doesn't get "lost in the shuffle".,
thus the name "sticky".
Look at the top of the About the Way Forum.
You'll see a coupla topics on top, that say pinned beside them.
Those are stickies. :)
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Holy Smoke
Sure, Christ can raise the dead (phycially or psychologically). PTL!
I mean that if we approach the Word with a Pharisee (or otherwise screwed-up) mentality -- let's memorize this, let's club people with that -- and not a heart for God or people, there is no change. No healing, no humility, no sincere apologies - you can forget all that. What you get are arrogant, paranoid delusions of grandeur. (hence, back to the sticky)
In fact, you get a real potential for damage, because the understanding and compassion is not there. I think that legalistic, damage history is what most of us here have in common. ???
Those who changed in gospels and Acts were those who were either convinced by signs and wonders (maybe blinded like Saul) or like Nicodemus (sp) and Lazarus simply had a heart for God and loved Jesus. Those who did not believe were not lacking in a knowledge or hearing of Scripture... they'd read it countless times! Reading or hearing it was not the issue. They didn't know Jesus.
Likewise, just reading scriptures today is not enough to bring healing to some people. I think hearts (psyches) usually have to be plowed up and ready before the Word can truly be heard or fully understood or applied in a person's life. Parable of the sower.... Not sayin Christ can't raise up corn out of a rock. I'm just saying that would be a miraculous exception.
Hope that clarifies. Thanks for reading!
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therebutforgrace
Thanks, dmiller
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doojable
This thread has taken on a disturbing tone.......
I can't put my finger on it - but something isn't right here.
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Bucky
Gut-shot Christians sure know how to fight. And then there's a screenplay from Senegal? Bring it to the Seychelles.
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satori001
Translation: Bumpy needs a hug.
Line forms to the rear.
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Bumpy
Glad HS enjoyed the stage! Read again the Oct. 12 posting about the do's and don'ts of the site. I will try and be more careful, even though I'm not concerned who reads these posts. The more the merrier. Certainly it never crosssed my mind that I was trying to blend everyone together!, maybe this happened before my time? I can certainly feel a lot of individual feeling and opinions out there. I think that's vital otherwise you're back in the box in another structure you don't want to be in.
As the forum is to overestimate themselves, I would conclude it has more to do with CES at the moment? Do you have the same opinion of twi? Did they not go way beyond just overestimating themselves through the rampant abuse I am hearing about? You see, even though I took 'the class' and a few others, until the last few days I had no idea what was going on or this forum existed. The posts I read about, how people's lives have been basically destroyed or at least dismembered are NOT funny stories!
That being said, can anyone go beyond Bible speak and think of ANY organization that gives you the Word as you want to hear it without "having to belong"? If you read my posts, this is the problem I have. I want to love people, but not go to meetings! Play a game of golf, help me with my understanding to grow as a human being, but no more colon cleanses!
Now, who knows how to get an Islamic microphone off the Moskie?
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