Tzaia - since you and Mark have spoken recently I'm trying to better understand his position in regards to this statement -
I don't know what all of your personal stakes are in all of this. What I do know is that starting over in your 50's and almost 60's is not an easy thing. Mark and I talked about that briefly on Tuesday. He is sure the Lord will provide.
Is the 'starting over in your 50's' why Mark feels justified to bring a lawsuit? I'm sure that he has 'weighed and prayed' through some of the obvious verses on this but it's hard to see it from here and I have not spoken with him recently.
1 Cor 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
It's to our shame that there's not even one we consider wise enough among us to bring the issue to for judging, it could even be the 'least esteemed' among us, and finally even if you're right and there's no resolution, verse 7 says it's better to be defrauded than to take your brother to court. Seems that if it applied to anyone it would be a church president, board members and staff.
Did he confirm whether or not he had the option for paid leave but chose to turn it down to 'start over' or does he feel he was forced? Why then the defamation suit and not some kind of wrongful dismissal? With the limited information we have and also knowing all the people involved it's hard to see how there could not have been any other resolution than this (?).
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
Tzaia I am going on the presumption that you are the computer tech person who lost out when Jeff went a different direction with tech support. Is this true?
I took the document offline. It was up for maybe 5 minutes, you guys are quick! There is some non pertinent info that is being removed. Hopefully it will be up this evening.
I've gotten multiple reports that John Shoenheit has been made the new President. I've gotten differing reports as to whether this is permanent or temporary.
Those named in the lawsuit are Jeff Blackburn, Dan Gallagher, John Lynn and the Theisens (sp?)
If I were MG, I would not waste any resources on this, particularly in the state of Indiana. I waged a legal battle with my siblings over our family business in Hamilton County Indiana with very little success. The only way I was able to expedite my case was by hiring the judge's campaign manager, who coincidently has his office on the north side of Indy (near the JAL/CES stomping ground). So, if anyone out there needs his name, PM me...however I would not throw good money after bad if it were me. I have been there and done that. Defamation is not easy to prove. This would be a civil case and the only thing recoverable is money...and just how much do these people have? I wish I would have sucked it up, wiped my tears and moved on sooner than I did. At 50+ years of age there is not enough time play this card. I would say to MG...go buy a bucket and some squeegies and get your a$$ to work.
Thanks for the response. I still think that the bringing this stuff to the light is quite the right thing to do. Honestly how in the world can any group that can't even keep its own office running possibly be responsible for a world wide ministry?
It is our experience that far too often Christian leaders have failed to practice what they have preached, leading to much disillusionment, pain, and broken relationships.
"Who can endure a doctrine which would allow only dentists to say whether our teeth were aching, only cobblers to say whether our shoes hurt us, and only governments to tell us whether we were being well governed?"
Excathedra, I like your posts on this thread. Looking over CES's codes of conduct and then posting what their own leaders are failing to do is a good idea. Keep up the good work. And did you find your bird yet? I will say a prayer for that also. I love critters of all kinds.
Tzaia I am going on the presumption that you are the computer tech person who lost out when Jeff went a different direction with tech support. Is this true?
Richard
Yes. I did not lose out. I am happy I'm no longer involved. It was not a great gig.
First let me state that I am writing this off the cuff so if I sound rough it’s because I have taken little time to reflect on your posts and frankly don't want to because it's clear that Mark has been "coaching" you on what to think and say. After two years of being completely out of the picture you decide to resurface using language and facts that could have only come to you via Mark. I won't even talk about how ridiculous it is for Mark to be calling you during the board meeting.
The errors you have posted are way too many for me to list, but the fact is that most of what you said grossly misrepresents the people and facts involved in this situation. You also must have a very short memory based upon what you remember of the office. Things with Jeff and Dan were never as bad as you claim them to be and to accuse Dan of being unethical gives even more proof that you are being swayed by Marks undoubtedly smooth sounding arguments. Furthermore to accuse some on the board (i.e. John S, Dan, and the Theisens), yet defend others (i.e. Mark and Tom) when all you know is Mark's side of the story shows once again that Mark's words are negatively influencing you--perhaps more then you know.
Before you find yourself too deeply entrenched with Mark you may be curious to know what great "prophecy" he had about you when you left. I don't think you would find it to your liking, but if you would like to know PM me and I'll be happy to share. Sadly, I feel as if his calling you was a desperate attempt to try and rally support for himself.
Also, I have to say I almost fell out of my chair laughing at your suggestion that we could all use a little more "normal" in our lives. I won't even go into how many issues you continually brought into the office each time you came. Accusing nearly everyone on the board and staff of having issues is really laughable coming from you. Trust me, it was a lot more then just your in competency that led to your being released as a contractor.
Perhaps it would do you some good to look at your own life and maybe even take a dose of your own medicine. I hold no animosity towards you, but you can at least get your facts straight and beyond that do yourself a favor and see that Mark is most certainly no friend of yours.
Excathedra is posting some mighty fine points from their own "code of conduct"... it's becoming more clear, as time goes by, that the "code of conduct" was just window dressing for the masses... not to be adhered to by the BOD...
Keep posting myseestorEx... if'n your fingers will hold out...
And all this time I thought, well it sure read like things at the "Home Office" were bright and shiny. Sweet and swell. Not perfect, but doggone good and getting better all the time...
It is obvious you haven't reflected much, but that's OK.
Mark didn't give me any specifics, he didn't coach. He apologized. I have been drawing on my personal experience based on what he apologized about, which was him discounting my very specific warning about his future with STF before I left.
You don't have to be there and you don't have to be coached to know that if bad behavior is rewarded, that it will continue . What I have shared is not what MG told me. It's what I told him...2 years ago. He didn't have to tell me DG turned against him. I told HIM that is what would happen...2 years ago.
I'm sure he thought I was a lot of things at the time, but my being right about what lay ahead for him was not one of them. I'm reasonably sure his perception 'colored' any kind of 'prophecy' he may have had about me.
It doesn't matter to me what MG 'prophesied'. I'm reasonably sure he didn't get any of it right because he seemed pretty surprised at what I've been doing the past 2 years and with the direction I've taken my life. So Matt, I don't care what he thought or what he said. I know MG maligned me. It was the only way he could justify what he was doing and wrap his mind around it. I'm not stupid.
I do credit MG with being enough of a man to apologize to me, which is more than any of the rest of you can say. If you are right and he called me to garner support, what I can support is that in spite of what he might have done to me, he's still probably the best qualified person to run the ministry. Quite frankly, it really doesn't matter to me whether the ministry dies or continues. Up until Sunday afternoon I hadn't paid any attention to STF and haven't been here in nearly 2 years. I've made no effort to keep in contact with any of you. When MG called me I came out here and started reading and was sickened by the whole thing. It's the same stuff.
Matthew, we all have issues. I was just more open about mine than any of you were about your issues. That is the one thing Mark told me is that he found out the hard way how you can't really be honest with one another or have a problem or a weakness. You will get nailed for it. Duh!! Been there, done that, got the T Shirt. So I really am not all that surprised that you would attack me and attempt to discredit me based upon my state of being an imperfect human. You got me there, buddy. I am imperfect and I do have issues. I guess that does discredit any truth or any valid points I have made...NOT! {suggestion: read sections on websites on logical fallacies}
I'm sorry all this happened. I'm not surprised any of it happened. I'm certainly not surprised at how ugly and mean towards each other all of you have become. Ugliness and meanness have never been that far from the surface. Very sad.
I congratulate you on your marriage. It's about time someone made an honest man out of you
In case either of you cares, I didn't read Matthew's post as ugly or mean.
Or yours either, Tz, though I do not agree with some of it.
Actually, Matthew, even if Mark had called to garner support, it isn't the point. JAL discusssed who would go with whom in his 12-26 letter. Some of the others have called people I know to garner support. It's fairly logical in a split like this. But logical is not what we are called to be. Biblical is. So let's look at that.... What is important is not which side is doing that but THAT EITHER SIDE IS.... Forget that these are your fiends...they are mine too....and ask this question.......what chapter and verse tells leaders to KEEP people?
I think, instead, the instruction is to SERVE them.
As I've said before, we who choose to follow the Bible need to look at the fruit that is on the tree (not what is coming next season, what is here today) to see if any of these brothers/sisters in Christ meet the qualities GOD tells us that His leaders must meet.....I and II Timothy is clear. When I see repentance and humility in one/any of these folks...when I see any of them living up to the standards of I and II Timothy, I will then consider thinking about being wiling to consider thinking about whether or not I might want to support their teaching or writing...I won't look to them for any kind of pastoring or shepherding or leading, but since I think God has called each to something for Him, if I see any of them living that something, then I might think about possibly praying about supporting them in it, as I now support other individuals. NOT as someone to follow...but as a brother walking alongside me, called to a work I see he is trying to fulfill.
((Meanwhile, during the intermission, I go to the fridge to get another bag o' chips and a 6 pack of beer. I then come back, recline on my E-Z-Boy, and snarf upon my munchies while I wait for Part II of this psychodrama to continue.))
Like I said, this is better than your garden variety reality show.
I think, instead, the instruction is to SERVE them.
I agree with this statement. Therebutforgrace, in my opinion, has always been seeking the truth and looking for the bigger picture. All I know right now is what I've read and interpreted what others have written in reaction to a lot of what seems to me edited versions of statements and then read more of people's hurts and opinions.
I am FIRST aghast at the way JS, JL, JB, DG and so forth had openly divulged information, months back on this very forum, that seems to me should have been worked out first in the board meetings before shared with the public, as responsible "leaders" ought to do. This simple action (even though it was months back) has given me the impression that these are self-serving people and definitely untrustworthy.
Second, I am irritated that the people who moderate this forum have edited and deleted a couple of my previous postings, which to me seems like censorship and creepy. This also gives me the impression that something devious and dishonest is going on here, and that if there are "sides" to be picked that this forum has been all about one side and the "moderators" are trying to cover something up or hide information from truth-seekers. AND it's apparently okay to put up a disgusting and not funny picture of spiders crawling out of KG's nose but NOT okay for me to express how I feel about what has been written?! GIMME A BREAK!
I hate the word leader. Leaders are SERVANTS in the eyes of God.
Actually, Matthew, even if Mark had called to garner support, it isn't the point. JAL discusssed who would go with whom in his 12-26 letter. Some of the others have called people I know to garner support. It's fairly logical in a split like this. But logical is not what we are called to be. Biblical is. So let's look at that.... What is important is not which side is doing that but THAT EITHER SIDE IS.... Forget that these are your friends...they are mine too....and ask this question.......what chapter and verse tells leaders to KEEP people?
I think, instead, the instruction is to SERVE them.
Grace......good points.
Some of us have read, and responded, to the LOY-alty letter before.
I agree with this statement. Therebutforgrace, in my opinion, has always been seeking the truth and looking for the bigger picture. All I know right now is what I've read and interpreted what others have written in reaction to a lot of what seems to me edited versions of statements and then read more of people's hurts and opinions.
I am FIRST aghast at the way JS, JL, JB, DG and so forth had openly divulged information, months back on this very forum, that seems to me should have been worked out first in the board meetings before shared with the public, as responsible "leaders" ought to do. This simple action (even though it was months back) has given me the impression that these are self-serving people and definitely untrustworthy.
Second, I am irritated that the people who moderate this forum have edited and deleted a couple of my previous postings, which to me seems like censorship and creepy. This also gives me the impression that something devious and dishonest is going on here, and that if there are "sides" to be picked that this forum has been all about one side and the "moderators" are trying to cover something up or hide information from truth-seekers. AND it's apparently okay to put up a disgusting and not funny picture of spiders crawling out of KG's nose but NOT okay for me to express how I feel about what has been written?! GIMME A BREAK!
I hate the word leader. Leaders are SERVANTS in the eyes of God.
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1broken1
Tzaia - since you and Mark have spoken recently I'm trying to better understand his position in regards to this statement -
Is the 'starting over in your 50's' why Mark feels justified to bring a lawsuit? I'm sure that he has 'weighed and prayed' through some of the obvious verses on this but it's hard to see it from here and I have not spoken with him recently.
1 Cor 6:1-8 Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded? 8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
It's to our shame that there's not even one we consider wise enough among us to bring the issue to for judging, it could even be the 'least esteemed' among us, and finally even if you're right and there's no resolution, verse 7 says it's better to be defrauded than to take your brother to court. Seems that if it applied to anyone it would be a church president, board members and staff.
Did he confirm whether or not he had the option for paid leave but chose to turn it down to 'start over' or does he feel he was forced? Why then the defamation suit and not some kind of wrongful dismissal? With the limited information we have and also knowing all the people involved it's hard to see how there could not have been any other resolution than this (?).
If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." - C.S. Lewis
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rich
It is interesting that no one has what can be considered true facts and this thread runs on and on with possiblities of what?
If the info that came out said MG was out and he was going to sue wouldn't we know who was in. Give it some time.
All the why and what ifs that are posted seem to be for the exersise of it, here you are all worked up and it may be differant than what you think.
Have a great day ya all
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richnchrispy
Tzaia I am going on the presumption that you are the computer tech person who lost out when Jeff went a different direction with tech support. Is this true?
Richard
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pawtucket
I took the document offline. It was up for maybe 5 minutes, you guys are quick! There is some non pertinent info that is being removed. Hopefully it will be up this evening.
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oldman
Tzaia,
You said "It's been two years since I've stepped in the office or had any involvment in the ministry."
I was curious as to where you got all of the information you shared about the people and events going on in the office and on the board.
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pawtucket
I've gotten multiple reports that John Shoenheit has been made the new President. I've gotten differing reports as to whether this is permanent or temporary.
Those named in the lawsuit are Jeff Blackburn, Dan Gallagher, John Lynn and the Theisens (sp?)
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pond
holy crap!
he is very angry one might assume.
wow JOHN LYNN brough him into this group!
it is kind of funny tho as much as I do not like seeing people hurt this is im sorry giggle giggle ha ha
good luck with the middle age crisis oh my g haha Im osrry re4ally it shouldnt be funny hahha I want it to stop make it stop . haha
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Calflor
If I were MG, I would not waste any resources on this, particularly in the state of Indiana. I waged a legal battle with my siblings over our family business in Hamilton County Indiana with very little success. The only way I was able to expedite my case was by hiring the judge's campaign manager, who coincidently has his office on the north side of Indy (near the JAL/CES stomping ground). So, if anyone out there needs his name, PM me...however I would not throw good money after bad if it were me. I have been there and done that. Defamation is not easy to prove. This would be a civil case and the only thing recoverable is money...and just how much do these people have? I wish I would have sucked it up, wiped my tears and moved on sooner than I did. At 50+ years of age there is not enough time play this card. I would say to MG...go buy a bucket and some squeegies and get your a$$ to work.
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Ham
Reminds me of a scene from the original Home Alone movie:
I can see KG, with a twinkle on her golden tooth..
My apologies to Home Alone fans..
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Ductape
Tzaia,
Thanks for the response. I still think that the bringing this stuff to the light is quite the right thing to do. Honestly how in the world can any group that can't even keep its own office running possibly be responsible for a world wide ministry?
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excathedra
CODE OF CONDUCT
Introduction
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1broken1
"Who can endure a doctrine which would allow only dentists to say whether our teeth were aching, only cobblers to say whether our shoes hurt us, and only governments to tell us whether we were being well governed?"
- C.S. Lewis
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Mark Sanguinetti
Excathedra, I like your posts on this thread. Looking over CES's codes of conduct and then posting what their own leaders are failing to do is a good idea. Keep up the good work. And did you find your bird yet? I will say a prayer for that also. I love critters of all kinds.
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Tzaia
Yes. I did not lose out. I am happy I'm no longer involved. It was not a great gig.
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sirvaliant
Tzaia,
First let me state that I am writing this off the cuff so if I sound rough it’s because I have taken little time to reflect on your posts and frankly don't want to because it's clear that Mark has been "coaching" you on what to think and say. After two years of being completely out of the picture you decide to resurface using language and facts that could have only come to you via Mark. I won't even talk about how ridiculous it is for Mark to be calling you during the board meeting.
The errors you have posted are way too many for me to list, but the fact is that most of what you said grossly misrepresents the people and facts involved in this situation. You also must have a very short memory based upon what you remember of the office. Things with Jeff and Dan were never as bad as you claim them to be and to accuse Dan of being unethical gives even more proof that you are being swayed by Marks undoubtedly smooth sounding arguments. Furthermore to accuse some on the board (i.e. John S, Dan, and the Theisens), yet defend others (i.e. Mark and Tom) when all you know is Mark's side of the story shows once again that Mark's words are negatively influencing you--perhaps more then you know.
Before you find yourself too deeply entrenched with Mark you may be curious to know what great "prophecy" he had about you when you left. I don't think you would find it to your liking, but if you would like to know PM me and I'll be happy to share. Sadly, I feel as if his calling you was a desperate attempt to try and rally support for himself.
Also, I have to say I almost fell out of my chair laughing at your suggestion that we could all use a little more "normal" in our lives. I won't even go into how many issues you continually brought into the office each time you came. Accusing nearly everyone on the board and staff of having issues is really laughable coming from you. Trust me, it was a lot more then just your in competency that led to your being released as a contractor.
Perhaps it would do you some good to look at your own life and maybe even take a dose of your own medicine. I hold no animosity towards you, but you can at least get your facts straight and beyond that do yourself a favor and see that Mark is most certainly no friend of yours.
Matthew
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dmiller
So who's telling the truth here?
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Tom Strange
Excathedra is posting some mighty fine points from their own "code of conduct"... it's becoming more clear, as time goes by, that the "code of conduct" was just window dressing for the masses... not to be adhered to by the BOD...
Keep posting myseestorEx... if'n your fingers will hold out...
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socks
Wow.
And all this time I thought, well it sure read like things at the "Home Office" were bright and shiny. Sweet and swell. Not perfect, but doggone good and getting better all the time...
I'm shocked.
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Tzaia
It is obvious you haven't reflected much, but that's OK.
Mark didn't give me any specifics, he didn't coach. He apologized. I have been drawing on my personal experience based on what he apologized about, which was him discounting my very specific warning about his future with STF before I left.
You don't have to be there and you don't have to be coached to know that if bad behavior is rewarded, that it will continue
. What I have shared is not what MG told me. It's what I told him...2 years ago. He didn't have to tell me DG turned against him. I told HIM that is what would happen...2 years ago.
I'm sure he thought I was a lot of things at the time, but my being right about what lay ahead for him was not one of them. I'm reasonably sure his perception 'colored' any kind of 'prophecy' he may have had about me.
It doesn't matter to me what MG 'prophesied'. I'm reasonably sure he didn't get any of it right because he seemed pretty surprised at what I've been doing the past 2 years and with the direction I've taken my life. So Matt, I don't care what he thought or what he said. I know MG maligned me. It was the only way he could justify what he was doing and wrap his mind around it. I'm not stupid.
I do credit MG with being enough of a man to apologize to me, which is more than any of the rest of you can say. If you are right and he called me to garner support, what I can support is that in spite of what he might have done to me, he's still probably the best qualified person to run the ministry. Quite frankly, it really doesn't matter to me whether the ministry dies or continues. Up until Sunday afternoon I hadn't paid any attention to STF and haven't been here in nearly 2 years. I've made no effort to keep in contact with any of you. When MG called me I came out here and started reading and was sickened by the whole thing. It's the same stuff.
Matthew, we all have issues. I was just more open about mine than any of you were about your issues. That is the one thing Mark told me is that he found out the hard way how you can't really be honest with one another or have a problem or a weakness. You will get nailed for it. Duh!! Been there, done that, got the T Shirt. So I really am not all that surprised that you would attack me and attempt to discredit me based upon my state of being an imperfect human. You got me there, buddy. I am imperfect and I do have issues. I guess that does discredit any truth or any valid points I have made...NOT! {suggestion: read sections on websites on logical fallacies}
I'm sorry all this happened. I'm not surprised any of it happened. I'm certainly not surprised at how ugly and mean towards each other all of you have become. Ugliness and meanness have never been that far from the surface. Very sad.
I congratulate you on your marriage. It's about time someone made an honest man out of you
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therebutforgrace
In case either of you cares, I didn't read Matthew's post as ugly or mean.
Or yours either, Tz, though I do not agree with some of it.
Actually, Matthew, even if Mark had called to garner support, it isn't the point. JAL discusssed who would go with whom in his 12-26 letter. Some of the others have called people I know to garner support. It's fairly logical in a split like this. But logical is not what we are called to be. Biblical is. So let's look at that.... What is important is not which side is doing that but THAT EITHER SIDE IS.... Forget that these are your fiends...they are mine too....and ask this question.......what chapter and verse tells leaders to KEEP people?
I think, instead, the instruction is to SERVE them.
As I've said before, we who choose to follow the Bible need to look at the fruit that is on the tree (not what is coming next season, what is here today) to see if any of these brothers/sisters in Christ meet the qualities GOD tells us that His leaders must meet.....I and II Timothy is clear. When I see repentance and humility in one/any of these folks...when I see any of them living up to the standards of I and II Timothy, I will then consider thinking about being wiling to consider thinking about whether or not I might want to support their teaching or writing...I won't look to them for any kind of pastoring or shepherding or leading, but since I think God has called each to something for Him, if I see any of them living that something, then I might think about possibly praying about supporting them in it, as I now support other individuals. NOT as someone to follow...but as a brother walking alongside me, called to a work I see he is trying to fulfill.
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GarthP2000
((Meanwhile, during the intermission, I go to the fridge to get another bag o' chips and a 6 pack of beer. I then come back, recline on my E-Z-Boy, and snarf upon my munchies while I wait for Part II of this psychodrama to continue.))
Like I said, this is better than your garden variety reality show.
Anywho, please continue .....
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gomer
I agree with this statement. Therebutforgrace, in my opinion, has always been seeking the truth and looking for the bigger picture. All I know right now is what I've read and interpreted what others have written in reaction to a lot of what seems to me edited versions of statements and then read more of people's hurts and opinions.
I am FIRST aghast at the way JS, JL, JB, DG and so forth had openly divulged information, months back on this very forum, that seems to me should have been worked out first in the board meetings before shared with the public, as responsible "leaders" ought to do. This simple action (even though it was months back) has given me the impression that these are self-serving people and definitely untrustworthy.
Second, I am irritated that the people who moderate this forum have edited and deleted a couple of my previous postings, which to me seems like censorship and creepy. This also gives me the impression that something devious and dishonest is going on here, and that if there are "sides" to be picked that this forum has been all about one side and the "moderators" are trying to cover something up or hide information from truth-seekers. AND it's apparently okay to put up a disgusting and not funny picture of spiders crawling out of KG's nose but NOT okay for me to express how I feel about what has been written?! GIMME A BREAK!
I hate the word leader. Leaders are SERVANTS in the eyes of God.
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skyrider
Grace......good points.
Some of us have read, and responded, to the LOY-alty letter before.
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pawtucket
What post are you referring to?
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