Ces Board Meeting

[1broken1]

1 Corinthians 6:1-8

DARE ANY OF YOU, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? 4 If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. 5 I SPEAK TO YOUR SHAME. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers. 7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. WHY DO YE NOT RATHER TAKE WRONG? WHY DO YE NOT RATHER SUFFER YOURSELVES TO BE DEFRAUDED? 8 NAY, YE DO WRONG, AND DEFRAUD, AND THAT YOUR BRETHREN.

Well, retaining counsel to defend those named in this work related set of incidents should pretty much KILL all available funds for the ministry as I'm sure everyone knows. And in several of the letters there are potential cases for counter suits of wrongful dismissal, or can you say EMOTIONAL DISTRESS? Holy crap. Cover story Indy Daily News, "Local CULT Sued for Emotional Distress by Former Employees."

1 Cor 6:7

And who was managing the finances? Oh right, Tom. That definitely won't look like a conflict of interest that he's on Mark's 'side.' Mark could also be personally sued with his wife and employed children in a CIVIL suit, AND the ministry could go completely under. Wow that's great. What another loving example of Christianity in action. "Yes your honor, then they told me I was possessed by the devil and shunned me. My whole life your honor and all my friends." That'll sound great on CNN. Wait until Elizabeth Lynn's letter is brought into evidence! My goodness, someone needs to sell this story to the "Woman Channel" and make a billion dollars. "Caught in a Cult - The E Lynn Story." I bet there are a million people who would love to hear this story to TRASH THE LORD. Defamation of character, for JESUS!

1 Cor 6:7

What defames people's character WAS and CONTINUES TO BE their ACTIONS.

I'd ask for a REFUND but I prefer to remember that giving to God is my responsibility, how people choose that money be spent is between them and GOD.

So let's start by taking every conflict resolution teaching you got in the mail from CES and throw it in the trash. Obviously this is how to handle it. Get emotional, prophecy against people and put 'thus saith the Lord on it,' hold your ground and do not back down (important for later legal battle), do not under any circumstance forgive or seriously take it to the Lord, and make sure you document everything! I wonder if the conclusions of the prophetic counsel will hold up in court? Sadly there is ONE JUDGE they will be brought before - everyone ready for that?

Then think about the 'cultivating wholeness' journey, sponsored mainly by your friends on Team Clergy. If you really want to clean your flesh, stick a water hose in your ear and turn it on full blast. Remember those times at conferences, and listening to tapes and talking to people when 'something just didn't seem quite right?' That was GOD telling you it WAS NOT QUITE RIGHT. Learn to hear THAT VOICE and OBEY IT.

In response to the Clergy Letter – re-read your submittal of the young persons dream. It says that the MARK SIDE was not right – choosing the WRONG WAY TO HANDLE THE SITUATION. The young person keeps wondering, “is this the right way to handle this?”

1 Cor 6:7

Sorry to see that the focus is once again not on the people who were recruited as followers. Here should be evidence of FRUIT for anyone listening - momentus and other worldly programs including psychology do not bring real wholeness, healing or deliverance. People who lead and create these programs have real issues just like you do and going on a retreat to get a plaque with your name on it doesn't change that reality.

Wash feet, die for people. Wash feet, die for people. Wash feet, die for people.

I know it's not as fun sounding as the new kinds of religions we can invent on our own, but if you do that then CALL IT SOMETHING ELSE.

Christ washed feet, and died for people.

Say it with me now, "WASH FEET, DIE FOR PEOPLE."

What part of wash feet and DIE FOR PEOPLE is not being understood here?

[GarthP2000]

Heh! If this doesn't turn out to be a reality show, at least it can be a Law & Order episode.

[sprawled out]

His attempts to harass and manipulate people are going to be overcome by the ones who actually do that for a living.

let's hope!

hey--shouldn't elizabeth l*nn (and god knows who else) be the one doing some suing? talk about defamation of character, and worse!

Edited January 16, 2007 by sprawled out

[waterbuffalo]

Say it with me now, "WASH FEET, DIE FOR PEOPLE."

What part of wash feet and DIE FOR PEOPLE is not being understood here?

You sound like a TV preacher, broken1.

Oh, I'd say the part that most twi splinter "ministers" don't understand.

[1broken1]

WB - I'll just go back to my prior post which seems to say it all.

"I'll keep it short and sweet -- Family. Religion. Friendship. These are the three demons you must slay if you wish to succeed in business."

- Montgomery Burns

[Belle]

Thanks, that DIE FOR PEOPLE stuff is just a little too morbid for my taste.

[1broken1]

Thanks Belle. You can imagine I don't get invited to a lot of parties either.

There are some pretty morbid sections of scripture too and those that follow Jesus as leaders can have a pretty heavy earthly price to pay.

'Wash feet, die for people' was supposed to be in contrast to the current situation of 'Make up your own stuff, ignore clear scripture, be a full time paid 'minister' and then sue people' leaving as big a trail of firings and division as possible, then probably go start another one.

Even Paul worked for a living - I wonder why there's not a 300 page book on that?

[George Aar]

Broken1,

I gotta take issue with this statement:

"I'd ask for a REFUND but I prefer to remember that giving to God is my responsibility, how people choose that money be spent is between them and GOD."

I know that this has been the company line at WayWorld for decades - probably since the Vickster started selling "The Class" - but it is nonsense.

Anytime we give money to anyone or anything we are giving power and resources. We have a moral obligation to make sure that that power is not misused. And if we feel it IS being misused, to then cut off our support.

Unfortunately Almighty God never has gotten around to getting Himself a P.O. Box, so the proper address to send our offerings has always been a little vague. Anyone claiming to collect funds for His work then, of necessity, should be subject to VERY close scrutiny.

Lots of folks have claimed divine sanction over the years, and lots of us have given them the wherewithall to commit all manner of acts, from the sublime to the unspeakable. Your local church, Billy Graham, David Koresh, Garner "Ted" Armstrong, Charles Manson, Hitler, or pick a charasamatic leader of your choice, all have had their hand out shamelessly asking - or demanding - our support. We damned well ought to know who we're giving to and what they're going to do with those resources...

[Oakspear]

Seems to me that the CES folks are way less evil than let's say the Aztecs and their human sacrifices and such. I mean geez, ever read about Montezuma and his holy priests who sacrificed humans? Now, THAT was a serious cult!

There you have it...you think TWI, CES, what have you is bad? hey, they never ripped out anyone's still-beating heart!

[Mark Sanguinetti]

Unless changes of the heart come to the CES leaders their ministry will change from fishers of men to fish food. It looks like Mark Graeser is pulling a Wierwille. If he can't have this ministry he is going to try to bring it to ashes. Yea right Mark Graeser. As if a number of CES people can't file defamation of character lawsuits against you. When you were president there were likely many examples of defamation of character against CES for the words and actions of their leaders and false prophets based on the teachings that you helped bring to CES. The guy might as well have a defamation of character lawsuit against himself. Graeser sounds like he is on a self destruct course. Sort of reminds me of a 5 year old that won't share his toys. Or one that cries when he can't get his way. But you know in talking to him 3 or 4 years ago he really did sound like a nice guy. I think this greedy stuff may be coming from his wife who I have talked to also. She struck me as a power seeker and the two other believers that were with me when we talked to her felt exactly the same way. In fact, we were sort of amazed when after telling her that my two friends had bought a church building, she sounded like she wanted control of the church building for CES meetings and wondered why my friends had it and not CES. The woman sounded like she was on a power trip plain and simple. I thought of writing to both John L and John S right after that incident, but didn't. Not sure that they would have listened to me anyway. So I guess they are finding out the hard way now.

Oh and I have a little prophecy of my own for Mark Graeser. Keep on this course and you will be broke and destitute. Either that or you have a lot of money to blow which I don't think you do.

So Graeser, why don't you try settling out of court with the other CES people? They will probably make you a fair offer. "Oh, I want it all" says Graeser. Fine then, go the way of broke and destitute, but don't beg from any of us when you hit the bottom because we won't be listening.

[rich]

Defamation of character is one of the hardest cases to prove.

Maybe the information was a little wrong. maybe it could have read " defamation of characters that spoke to us in our sleep and in pp. Maybe thats who is being sued?

[notinKansasanymore]

Sooo, if Mark is out as their president, who's in? Dare I hope Schoenheit? I believe that he has his head on straight.

[rich]

Last sentance was wrong, should have read " Maybe thats who is doing the sueing

[notinKansasanymore]

I don't believe that Mark will be able to prove defamation of character. As president of the organization, it was his responsibility to model proper membership behavior for others in the group. If the documents I've seen are any indication, he and Karen Anne appear to have played fast and lose with the lots of folks' characters and reputations. He and Karen Anne appear to have "set the standard" for what constituted "acceptable" levels of gossip, name-calling, innuendo, spider-nose-accusing, etc.

That's one of the problems with trashing folks' reputations.

I agree that Elizabeth has a much stronger case than do they; my personal opinion is that she should sue not only for defamation of character, but for alienation of her husband's affections.

Edited January 16, 2007 by notinKansasanymore

[Mark Sanguinetti]

A basic problem with CES is that they are to organization focused and not enough people focused. With that in mind I don't really care who there new president is. I would rather see a change of heart from their leaders and whether or not they can change from leaders to servants which is what Jesus wants of his disciples.

[Mark Sanguinetti]

I am not a lawyer, but nevertheless I have to agree with notinKansas. Elizabeth looks to have a legitimate defamation of character lawsuit if she wants it. I am wondering when the statute of limitations runs out for this. In contrast, all the Graeser's have is smoke, mirrors and the potential for a lot of money going down a rat hole. Let's hope they come to their senses.

[rich]

Sooo, if Mark is out as their president, who's in? Dare I hope Schoenheit? I believe that he has his head on straight.

Kansas, what are you thinking? all these people have sowed into this stuff. JS is the goto research guy who blessed this stuff and performed in it. I wouldn't call that acrewed on straight would you?

[rhino]

If MG is out as pres, does he have any right to use CES funds for his defense or for suing? Does that need to be board approved.

If EL is suing, is CES liable? I'd guess so, depending on who made the info public maybe?

If EL wins all the CES money, just a shout out to see if you like farm life in Illinois? Just kidding, she is probably too christian for me anyway ... I am mostly heathen... :)

It seems the salary mg has received of late is sufficient severance pay, considering the damages. Forget offering him a package to leave. He will do well to walk away whole imnsho.

Are these legal actions available to the public now? If so why doesn't someone name names? Are there any lawyers in the house?

What great drama, and great that so many issues are being brought to light. Are there any new revelations coming from the prophetess? Surely God wouldn't suddenly shut up at a critical time like this.

[Belle]

from another thread

.... we can't absolve the guilt by saying, 'i didn't see it happening but please come back for version 2' because then you're asking people to join a group where you have no control or oversight over how they are treated. not cool. if it's not something you can take responsibility for, don't ask for authority.

All of 'em allowed it to happen. All of 'em let it get out of control. All of 'em ignored the red flags. All of 'em owe the folks of CES an apology.

What qualifications do any of 'em have? Which ones even come close to the character required of leadership, especially leadership over God's flock?

[notinKansasanymore]

Rich, I haven't had contact with any of these people for years. But back in the day, I knew Mark and Karen Anne, John, and John. John Schoenheit was one of the nicest, most level-headed people I had ever met. If you're telling me that now he's not, I will have to plead ignorance: very hopeful ignorance, that this sweet, God-loving man has not been changed over time.

P. S. Rhino, you're a hoot. Thanks for the comic relief on such a sad thread.

P.P.S: Elizabeth, if you're reading this, Rhino is tall and cute.

P. P. P. S: Oh, no. Now I'm obviously going to Hell. :huh:

[rich]

Kansas

That was thier cult leadership face, whats going on here is the real deal, who they are.

[Abigail]

I could be mistaken, but if CES is a non-profit, it seems to me the minutes from the board meeting would be subject to the Freedom of Information Act. Someone could simply write a letter requesting them under FOIA.

[Tom Strange]

I don't believe that Mark will be able to prove defamation of character. As president of the organization, it was his responsibility to model proper membership behavior for others in the group. If the documents I've seen are any indication, he and Karen Anne appear to have played fast and lose with the lots of folks' characters and reputations. He and Karen Anne appear to have "set the standard" for what constituted "acceptable" levels of gossip, name-calling, innuendo, spider-nose-accusing, etc.

That's one of the problems with trashing folks' reputations.

I agree that Elizabeth has a much stronger case than do they; my personal opinion is that she should sue not only for defamation of character, but for alienation of her husband's affections.

niKa, while John S may still in fact "have his head screwed on" straighter than the others, it would still be off-kilter in my opinion... like others have said, and I've said since all of this first came up: THEY'RE ALL COMPLICIT... they were all there, allowing this and participating in this... so, IMO, they're not to be entrusted anymore... they've used up their turn... ALL OF 'EM...

CAP'N CRUNCH: do you have any information for us today?

[mstar1]

they've used up their turn... ALL OF 'EM...

Their turn was up a long time ago---when they left TWI and started the same thing with different color drapes on the windows a different color carpet, and a few commas in different places.

----They should have had the common sense from the beginning that it was a road to implosion

[excathedra]

are their salaries public knowledge ?

are their salaries public knowledge ?

oops i think i read "unlimited" on their wish list (snort)