I'm really not amazed at your responses. If you will not be honest here, at least be honest with yourself. You say that you have it all together! Do you? Answer this then, does God exhort you to fellowship with likeminded believers? If so, then they must be out there. All I am saying is "GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!"
you're confusing me. who are you talking to? your post needs some context because you seem to be accusing the lot of us of something (not sure what yet) including not giving peace a chance.
I also will add that I left TWI on May 1, 2000, and didn't fellowship with any group, only a handful of friends, and only for a very short time.
Only now have I been able to open up and become coach able. I exhort any of you who are searching to check out cffm.org.
Neo (Michael)
Michael......welcome to GSC.
I don't know how much you've been around The Cafe.......there's lots here. And, people from all walks and viewpoints, different experiences and abuses, free advice, helpful information, etc. etc.
Hopefully, you understand.......that you can't paint everyone here with the same brush.
Lots of us know plenty about cff.............friends, relatives, etc. Even catcup who frequents here.....and her husband is a reverend in cff.......likes diversity. At one time, she talked about attending church occassionally.
Open group confrontation doesn't work too well here........just so ya know.
thanks for the clarification, Neo. you really threw me off by putting "responses" in the plural and the thing about someone saying they had it all together. I couldn't remember reading anyone say that.
anyway, welcome back to GS. I saw your quitter post when I was new, and liked the way you put it.
and, what skyrider said.
I loved Wayne to pieces when I was a wow and got to spend time at Rome City. but advertisements tend to rub me the wrong way, since I was in the business of recruiting people for twi when I was in... at least until they wore me down and I decided I couldn't bring people to such an unloving place even if I couldn't leave.
you can share what you're learning there, if you like. but don't tell me I should check it out.
I do fellowship with " like-minded" believers but they are no longer of The Way persuasion, or an off shoot. I learned a lot from the Way teaching over the last 20 years. So my statement stands as is. Please do not take offence.
Michael, I'm sure you don't mean to come across as judgmental and arrogant, but that's the way your posts sound to me. It might be a good idea to spend some time looking around and getting to know us before you presume to know what we think, where we're coming from and what we need.
May I suggest that you start here? It's a good start and may give you some information to help you enjoy your visits here a bit better.
This is a particularly important aspect of the cafe to keep in mind:
Most here have formed their opinions based on the INFORMATION they've found from MANY
sources (this site and others). Some posters are no longer Christians.
Many are Christians who don't accept some, many, or most of the things twi taught
as "The Truth". The non-Christians have different opinions, and some of them hold
nothing against Christians. The various Christians have different opinions,
and some of them are comfortable with brothers in Christ with whom they disagree
doctrinally.
There is no one single opinion of the posters.
There is no universally-accepted opinion of the posters.
(There are even a few people who are convinced vpw never wronged anyone.)
You mentioned in an earlier post that you wanted to start a thread on the WAP class. Go for it! It could be a really good exercise like this one done in the early days on PFAL: PFAL Review
Hi all! Thanks for the info. I did not mean to come across as offensive. I too was deeply hurt by twi, from about 1989. I only stayed in for the next eleven years because of fear!
I didn't want to go through that again, so for the next six years I continued to live in bondage!!!
Over the next year I started to give a hearing to the teachings of cffm and about six weeks ago I was delivered from that bondage.
I have come to realize that holding onto that hurt and anger held me back. I only posted in the hope that what I have gone through may help someone else.
Thanks again for the gracious hospitality in welcoming me into this site, and I look forward to reading and interacting with you.
Belle, I will take your advice and start that thread soon. I never took the advance class for wap class because every person I knew came back weaker from it.
I hope you do, Neo. I'll pull out my syllabus and participate. A lot of folks here at the cafe missed out on that and may be amused, appalled and sickened to see what we were taught. Paw may stick us in a back booth somewhere so as to not ruin the appetites of the patrons, though.
I did take the advanced class and have the syllabus - if you'd like a copy, just PM me and we can work something out.
Heyya Neo, nice to meet you. There are some darned good reasons that many of us take a dim view of vpw.
It isn`t always about being filled with gaul and bitterness. Maybe when you find out what he DID to our precious brothers and sisters, you would change your perception of how *valuable* he was.
When someones actions are so heinous, despicable, even down right criminal....you may sure that when these deeds are brought to the light of day .... that people would indeed *talk* and be deeply offended.
He was impressed with Johnny`s fishing skills.....I am sure that is a big deal when viewed in the light of raping our sisters...geeze
Bitter? Damned straight friend. When the off shoots start putting that in perspective, I might consider that they have some credibility.
Rascal, I have talked with others who knew him and none of them has said that about him. I know that there are accusations out there about him, but I never talked with those people.
The main reason I left twi in 2000 was because I was personal friends with two of the people lcm raped!
Could you e-mail me about this? I need to know if the acusations about him are true.
Oh gosh Neo, I am so sorry for your friends. I hate to say it, but I have heard worse first hand accounts about lcm. He was a real class a monster.
Believe it or not, after reading the first hand accounts.....Vpw was even worse, he was just a little smarter in how he delt with *damage* control.
There are numerous first hand accounts of the drugging and rape that occured. One high ranking well respected off shoot leader confirmed it was known that the drugging was occuring .....
These stories are brutal, it is hard every time that these folks come forward because people accuse them of evreything from lying to seducing.....
There is one person in these forums who was actually given a drink neo, and raped by vpw, there is another poster who had to deal with his nasty naked self before he was interrupted.
There are several others who told their stories on john juedes` messiah 7 sight.
I will not tell anothers story here, but you can read their first hand accounts on a thread called *sexual abuse in the way* I think it is called, There is also a lot of personal information on the *suicide in the way* thread.
If you are genuine in your desire for truth, for the practices of the man behind the carefully crafted public image...please read these first hand accounts. They are blood chilling.
You can search for those two threads they are graffic and brutal, told by people that are well known and loved, that have established their veracity here through the years.
You will find in your reading why you never heard of these accounts, what happened to the people who tried to refuse, and to any who tried to tell.
Neo, I am sorry. I am sorry that you have to read this stuff because it is heart breaking to find out that somebody that you respected and trusted could perpetrate such evil.
Can you understand why some of us would have trouble having respect for these guys after learning what they did to our innocent brothers and sisters? People died.
I am trying to find those threads to pull up. Neo, vpw` s sexual abuse and rape is not even contested any more. Even his most ardent supporters agree that it happened, they just figure it was a character flaw, of an other wise very good man...shrug.
AFTER knowing what these "men" did, to publicly call vic "the man of god" or "the teacher".. is very revealing as to a person's spirituality, at least in my opinion.
Or revealing as to a person's agenda, or character.
I'm in tears just reading that! I have spent the last seven years denying that he could have hurt Gods kids. I just don't understand why the people I know deny that occurred. I only want to know the truth. And yes I can handle the truth!
Sorry is not enough to those who were hurt by him.
Not everybody knew. Mostly only those who were *initiated* they were called *spiritual enough to handle it*
There were teachings that made it biblically seem ok.
Most are very earnest in their love and defense of vpw. Most cannot fathom the evil that would do such a thing.
You are not alone, it is a bitter bitter betrayal. The neat thing though is that once you recognise what happened, you can begin to rebuild that foundation of truth again....you start all over fresh.
You examine each brick, each stone from your old foundation and decide if it is solid and worthey (many are) of you new stronger foundation.
It is a tough process, but in the end, the sands won`t wash it away.
I didn`t want to be mean....I just thought that if you understood why some of us were so angry, you would understand that it isn`t just a bitterness issue.
Neo, thank you for considering my words rather than just branding me a liar because you didn`t want to hear.
It's very, very difficult to realize these things. As WordWolf said, we've been here for years and we're still here so we can help others because so many of us remember all too well what a kick in the gut all this is. Also, there's no timetable or expectations... really. :)
Here are two of the threads I've found so far that talk in length about the sexual abuse:
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Ca_dreaming
I do not think of him anymore! As for where I am spiritually that is between my Lord and !.
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Neo
I'm really not amazed at your responses. If you will not be honest here, at least be honest with yourself. You say that you have it all together! Do you? Answer this then, does God exhort you to fellowship with likeminded believers? If so, then they must be out there. All I am saying is "GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!"
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potato
you're confusing me. who are you talking to? your post needs some context because you seem to be accusing the lot of us of something (not sure what yet) including not giving peace a chance.
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skyrider
Michael......welcome to GSC.
I don't know how much you've been around The Cafe.......there's lots here. And, people from all walks and viewpoints, different experiences and abuses, free advice, helpful information, etc. etc.
Hopefully, you understand.......that you can't paint everyone here with the same brush.
Lots of us know plenty about cff.............friends, relatives, etc. Even catcup who frequents here.....and her husband is a reverend in cff.......likes diversity. At one time, she talked about attending church occassionally.
Open group confrontation doesn't work too well here........just so ya know.
Peace Out.
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Neo
My last post is only addressed to Ca_dreaming. Quote “I do not think of him anymore! As for where I am spiritually that is between my Lord and !.”
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potato
thanks for the clarification, Neo. you really threw me off by putting "responses" in the plural and the thing about someone saying they had it all together. I couldn't remember reading anyone say that.
anyway, welcome back to GS. I saw your quitter post when I was new, and liked the way you put it.
and, what skyrider said.
I loved Wayne to pieces when I was a wow and got to spend time at Rome City. but advertisements tend to rub me the wrong way, since I was in the business of recruiting people for twi when I was in... at least until they wore me down and I decided I couldn't bring people to such an unloving place even if I couldn't leave.
you can share what you're learning there, if you like. but don't tell me I should check it out.
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excathedra
ps.
ugh
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Ca_dreaming
Neo,
I do fellowship with " like-minded" believers but they are no longer of The Way persuasion, or an off shoot. I learned a lot from the Way teaching over the last 20 years. So my statement stands as is. Please do not take offence.
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Danny
Ca D love that song.
Neo hey welcome have a hot coco on me.
Read a little before you take out the big brush.
veepees legacy is very questionable. IMO
I will have to answer to the same God.
Peace
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Belle
Michael, I'm sure you don't mean to come across as judgmental and arrogant, but that's the way your posts sound to me. It might be a good idea to spend some time looking around and getting to know us before you presume to know what we think, where we're coming from and what we need.
May I suggest that you start here? It's a good start and may give you some information to help you enjoy your visits here a bit better.
This is a particularly important aspect of the cafe to keep in mind:
You mentioned in an earlier post that you wanted to start a thread on the WAP class. Go for it! It could be a really good exercise like this one done in the early days on PFAL: PFAL Review
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Neo
Hi all! Thanks for the info. I did not mean to come across as offensive. I too was deeply hurt by twi, from about 1989. I only stayed in for the next eleven years because of fear!
I didn't want to go through that again, so for the next six years I continued to live in bondage!!!
Over the next year I started to give a hearing to the teachings of cffm and about six weeks ago I was delivered from that bondage.
I have come to realize that holding onto that hurt and anger held me back. I only posted in the hope that what I have gone through may help someone else.
Thanks again for the gracious hospitality in welcoming me into this site, and I look forward to reading and interacting with you.
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Neo
Belle, I will take your advice and start that thread soon. I never took the advance class for wap class because every person I knew came back weaker from it.
Bless
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Belle
I hope you do, Neo. I'll pull out my syllabus and participate. A lot of folks here at the cafe missed out on that and may be amused, appalled and sickened to see what we were taught. Paw may stick us in a back booth somewhere so as to not ruin the appetites of the patrons, though.
I did take the advanced class and have the syllabus - if you'd like a copy, just PM me and we can work something out.
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rascal
Heyya Neo, nice to meet you. There are some darned good reasons that many of us take a dim view of vpw.
It isn`t always about being filled with gaul and bitterness. Maybe when you find out what he DID to our precious brothers and sisters, you would change your perception of how *valuable* he was.
When someones actions are so heinous, despicable, even down right criminal....you may sure that when these deeds are brought to the light of day .... that people would indeed *talk* and be deeply offended.
He was impressed with Johnny`s fishing skills.....I am sure that is a big deal when viewed in the light of raping our sisters...geeze
Bitter? Damned straight friend. When the off shoots start putting that in perspective, I might consider that they have some credibility.
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Neo
Rascal, I have talked with others who knew him and none of them has said that about him. I know that there are accusations out there about him, but I never talked with those people.
The main reason I left twi in 2000 was because I was personal friends with two of the people lcm raped!
Could you e-mail me about this? I need to know if the acusations about him are true.
Neo
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rascal
Oh gosh Neo, I am so sorry for your friends. I hate to say it, but I have heard worse first hand accounts about lcm. He was a real class a monster.
Believe it or not, after reading the first hand accounts.....Vpw was even worse, he was just a little smarter in how he delt with *damage* control.
There are numerous first hand accounts of the drugging and rape that occured. One high ranking well respected off shoot leader confirmed it was known that the drugging was occuring .....
These stories are brutal, it is hard every time that these folks come forward because people accuse them of evreything from lying to seducing.....
There is one person in these forums who was actually given a drink neo, and raped by vpw, there is another poster who had to deal with his nasty naked self before he was interrupted.
There are several others who told their stories on john juedes` messiah 7 sight.
I will not tell anothers story here, but you can read their first hand accounts on a thread called *sexual abuse in the way* I think it is called, There is also a lot of personal information on the *suicide in the way* thread.
If you are genuine in your desire for truth, for the practices of the man behind the carefully crafted public image...please read these first hand accounts. They are blood chilling.
You can search for those two threads they are graffic and brutal, told by people that are well known and loved, that have established their veracity here through the years.
You will find in your reading why you never heard of these accounts, what happened to the people who tried to refuse, and to any who tried to tell.
Neo, I am sorry. I am sorry that you have to read this stuff because it is heart breaking to find out that somebody that you respected and trusted could perpetrate such evil.
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rascal
Can you understand why some of us would have trouble having respect for these guys after learning what they did to our innocent brothers and sisters? People died.
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rascal
I am trying to find those threads to pull up. Neo, vpw` s sexual abuse and rape is not even contested any more. Even his most ardent supporters agree that it happened, they just figure it was a character flaw, of an other wise very good man...shrug.
I disagree.
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Ham
Welcome Neo!
I would say your post was not off topic here.
AFTER knowing what these "men" did, to publicly call vic "the man of god" or "the teacher".. is very revealing as to a person's spirituality, at least in my opinion.
Or revealing as to a person's agenda, or character.
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Neo
I'm in tears just reading that! I have spent the last seven years denying that he could have hurt Gods kids. I just don't understand why the people I know deny that occurred. I only want to know the truth. And yes I can handle the truth!
Sorry is not enough to those who were hurt by him.
Neo
P.s.
I need to go but will return tomorrow.
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WordWolf
Neo,
Hello. :)
This is some rough, harsh stuff to go over.
You might want to go slow, and take some time to digest it.
There's no hurry, and you can go at any pace you can adjust to.
You don't have to impress anyone by accepting it fast, or not having emotions
about it, or any other action. You don't even have to impress yourself
by showing off, either. :)
We can pick up any discussion of same months from now, whenever you've
read everything and digested it. We'll be here.
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rascal
((((Neo))) I am sorry.
Not everybody knew. Mostly only those who were *initiated* they were called *spiritual enough to handle it*
There were teachings that made it biblically seem ok.
Most are very earnest in their love and defense of vpw. Most cannot fathom the evil that would do such a thing.
You are not alone, it is a bitter bitter betrayal. The neat thing though is that once you recognise what happened, you can begin to rebuild that foundation of truth again....you start all over fresh.
You examine each brick, each stone from your old foundation and decide if it is solid and worthey (many are) of you new stronger foundation.
It is a tough process, but in the end, the sands won`t wash it away.
I didn`t want to be mean....I just thought that if you understood why some of us were so angry, you would understand that it isn`t just a bitterness issue.
Neo, thank you for considering my words rather than just branding me a liar because you didn`t want to hear.
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Belle
(((((Neo)))))
It's very, very difficult to realize these things. As WordWolf said, we've been here for years and we're still here so we can help others because so many of us remember all too well what a kick in the gut all this is. Also, there's no timetable or expectations... really. :)
Here are two of the threads I've found so far that talk in length about the sexual abuse:
The First You Heard of the Sexual Abuse
Did VPW teach LCM?
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