My next door neighbors are straight from El Salvador. They bought the house next door the same week we bought our house.
They are tree men...which means they do tree trimming, tree removal, tree doctoring and all things tree. They did over $5000.00 worth of tree work for us at no charge just to be neighborly. We didn't even ask...and didn't know it was being done until we got home after an out of town trip and it was all done.
I know they have guns, too. When the American and white crack heads come down to our little paradise and want to turn tricks and blow crack and steal, our neighbors cap a few rounds in the dirt and chase them off.
I also know they run in big groups of 10 or more. In fact, sometimes there are 30 or more. And they're all carrying sharpened sticks and black 33 gallon garbage bags and spray paint cans. Oh, did I forget to say that these gang-like groups of El Salvadorans are cleaning up the neighborhood with those black sticks and garbage bags?
In fact, I would have to credit those gang-like El Salvadorans with getting rid of the real crime in our little neck of the woods.
After I saw how disorganized the Katrina evacuation was I had a bad feeling about an upswing in gang related activity in host communities. I doubt anybody from the Dept of Corrections and Probation gave much thought to the impact thousands of parolee's and gangbangers would have on the rest of the country.
Gangs are dangerous and taking them on can get you or your family hurt or killed. The police are paid to deal with them, I suggest you let them. However if you happen to be in the barbershop and overhear something of interest it is your civic duty to pass on the info to the authorities.
A program called Lucky 7's has met with limited success.
The only downside to it is most of the gangbangers move so it does not *solve* the problem, it just moves it down the road a town or two.
From what I have read, good intelligence and interdepartmental cooperation helps considerably when tackling gangs. Having the full support of the PD, City Council and special interest groups can minimize negative publicity and consitutional challenges that might arise from implimenting a get tough program. There are funds available for tackling some of the underlying causes that lead to gang membership, however it would take a skilled adminstrator to handle the diverse demands such a program would require.
We've had the Guardian Angels down here from NYC training folks to take over in our most gang infested areas. They've only just gotten here, so I can't tell you if they're making any sort of impact.
Funny, I don't recall reading anything along the lines of, "every single person from El Salvador" is a member of the M-13 Gang." <_< Heck, I don't even remember El Salvador being mentioned on this thread till you brought it up, CW. What's the deal? There's a link to an article that states where the M-13 gang originated, but even that doesn't draw the conclusions you're sharpening your claws over.
Also, if your neighbors are in a gang (particularly M-13), then remember that just because they appear to be helping.... don't be deceived - they're still gang members - you just happen to be on their good side for the time being.
Wow, you are nucking futs! You want civilians roaming the streets shooting at people who they think might be in gangs? In the U.S., we have a principle in our laws that is referred to "innocent until proven guilty." You can't just go around shooting people. What is worse is that you are insinuating that you want to go around shooting latinos, and you don't care if your militant vigilante gangs murder innocent people. You are a sick individual and should seek psychological help before you become a danger to those around you.
MS-13 is a nasty bunch of killers ... a civilian watch group with legal authority to carry would have some training. Are you defending the MS-13 killers over the innocent civilians "mixed up mosh"? It sure sounds like it. But it is revealing that your first line of argument is profanity and personal insult.
Then you play the race card ... yes I know, we can't touch you because you married a latino, so us whities better STFU, right? While MS-13 kills innocents, you will righteously protect their civil rights. Then you diagnose Eagle ... you must also be a psychologist. I thinks you are way too full of yourself and way too wrong. Gawd help us.
Reread your message mosh pit, and apply those insults to yourself ... the inner you is trying to tell you something ...
1. nucking futs
2. supporting MS13 murder of innocents
3. sick individual, need psychological help ... close to endangering others
They told me about the gangs. I did not know/remember they were M 13
In El salvador Betty's mother has nothing very nice. Betty said the gangs roam the streets, look in the windows and if you own anything nice they break in and take it.
Betty is a great person.
But she moved out of Norcr*ss because of the gangs there (we work there) one morning there were two dead bodies ouside of her apartment complex.
So, yes. She and I have worked together to try and get the criminals out of our area at work. (Calling the polie, chasing away the men in the woods, picking up the trash in the yard.) But she is very aware and tries to inform me about these people.
Looks like the gangs have moved 45 minutes north into my neighborhood now. But I think these folks are really more kids of Katrina trying to break bad.
I offered to take Betty to the shooting range, she may opt for tear gas.
The El Salvador guy I work with was jumped by a different guy from El Salvador at his 2nd job and he was almost knifed -- but a couple others came to his aid and they overpowered the knife guy. Knife guy is now in jail
WARNING: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!!!!!! (Eagle's, Jonny's. and Rhino's plan)
Encouraging people who find themselves approaching a lot of gang members to do so armed, seems to me to be a recipe for disaster., and indeed nucking futs! What, are you going to take them ALL out without being carried out in a box yourself? Not likely. Certainly not something I would recommend to anyone I liked. Those of you who think otherwise, GO FOR IT! I will be happy to say a word or two for you in the Memorium Forum, and there I promise to be kind, out of respect for your survivors.
Eagle's post was not directly pointed to M13, at least in its wording nor in my understanding of it. It really makes no difference what gang it was anyway. He DID point to "the blight coming over the border", thus opened the door himself to Mosh's post. He, not Mosh, played the "race card". Thanks Mosh for pointing out who REALLY cares about the Constitution on this board. We can see clearly now.
While I won't go looking for bangers to bust a cap in, I won't hesitate to accommodate if they mess with me or mine. I know all my family members sleep better since the huge influx of crime that parallels the same increase in illegals in my son's area was meet with a 40 auto for a birthday present.
WARNING: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!!!!!! (Eagle's, Jonny's. and Rhino's plan)
Encouraging people who find themselves approaching a lot of gang members to do so armed, seems to me to be a recipe for disaster., and indeed nucking futs! What, are you going to take them ALL out without being carried out in a box yourself? Not likely. Certainly not something I would recommend to anyone I liked. Those of you who think otherwise, GO FOR IT! I will be happy to say a word or two for you in the Memorium Forum, and there I promise to be kind, out of respect for your survivors.
Eagle's post was not directly pointed to M13, at least in its wording nor in my understanding of it. It really makes no difference what gang it was anyway. He DID point to "the blight coming over the border", thus opened the door himself to Mark's post. He, not Mark, played the "race card". Thanks Mark for pointing out who REALLY cares about the Constitution on this board. We can see clearly now.
(Yikes again)
You missed everything Hap ... the plan was for trained people in a group ... an organized counter to the gang ... your option seems to be submission.
The topic is gangs hap .. how could you miss that unless you were really trying to miss it? OK, VP is right on this ... "immediate context" ... they are outlaws that dominate some neighborhoods (and you suggest surrender) The most vicious gangs are coming across the border. I tried to tell you this a year ago or so and you said you had never heard of that problem then. Have you still not heard of it? Wake up, it is probably even in Boulder ... but you don't buy in those neighborhoods ...
Are you guys really so PC that you feel compelled to defend MS-13?
Concerning the opposition to the founding philosophy (yes, founding philosophy of our country) that we form trained neighborhood or regional groups (militias) that have legal authority granted by the state, organized in such a fashion to recognize, spot trouble (frankly, the enemy within our borders), and when threatened, we do not first consider their rights but first consider our lives. The "blight over the border" is exactly that, an illegal blight...foreign gangs infiltrating with local gangs to form a dangerous armed force against the citizenry.
You spot them, you surround them first, and if necessary, shoot them. You drive them out. Make it unprofitable to be here. No, it is not pointed specifically at Latinos, or even Arabs. It is easy to use that analogy or race card because the ones coming over are mostly this group. It could be European gangs doing the same thing. The same principle would apply.
No, I don't expect this to be taken seriously ever. Look at our political leadership. I have never heard of the specific gang you spoke of until now. Frankly, I was thinking of other neighborhood gangs in this area.
But, don't worry, for those siding with the gangs, they face no harm from local neighborhood watches and they know it.
The only reasons gangs grow...is because we as a country let them and reservations such as displayed by P-Mosh and HAP encourages it and like fertilizer, helps it to grow.
You missed everything Hap ... the plan was for trained people in a group ... an organized counter to the gang ... your option seems to be submission.
The ice storm might have hidden this from your confused eyes Rhino, so I will paste this from the first paragraph at the top of the page:
("Eagle wrote: If one approaches a lot of gang members, you have to be armed, regardless of the laws in that area. Rather live with a police record than die obeying the law.")
He specifically said if ONE approaches....
To which Jonny or someone added something to the effect of "better to face 12 than be carried by 6". that also is speaking of an individual taking their own action, with a weapon, not a trained and legal force. You missed it Rhino, so you then felt obligated to go off on Mosh, who took exception to the threat imposed to all who appear to have Latino background, should someone alone or in a group decide to go around shedding blood. You then took it another personal rung by bringing his wife into it. Mosh had not mentioned that on this thread. You then mentioned something about "listen to how you sound". I implore you to do the same. It offended me, what you said about Mark's wife, even if it didn't bother him. (Not that it is your duty to not offend me, it is your right but I doubt your intent. I just felt I wanted to let you know how you sounded to me.)
The topic is gangs hap .. how could you miss that unless you were really trying to miss it?
Yes, gangs, not necessarily M13, at least in Eagle's post to which I was referring, and MORE especially in his first paragraph. My whole post referred to gangs, how could you miss that, unless you were really trying?
OK, VP is right on this ... "immediate context" ... they are outlaws that dominate some neighborhoods (and you suggest surrender)
I did not suggest surrender, I did suggest ONE person not attempt to take on a gang on their own, in the street, with a weapon. (with the possible exception of you and Jonny and Eagle). I do not withdraw that suggestion, although Jonny on another thread mentioned wanting to be around for his wife and kids. I do suggest organizing community awareness and getting LEGAL, capable assistance from the police and city or state law enforcement.
The most vicious gangs are coming across the border. I tried to tell you this a year ago or so and you said you had never heard of that problem then. Have you still not heard of it? Wake up, it is probably even in Boulder ... but you don't buy in those neighborhoods ...
This low comment is not worth a reply. Is your farm in the city? You have no idea where I own or have owned property.
Are you guys really so PC that you feel compelled to defend MS-13?
Show me one place where I either felt compelled to defend them or in fact did defend them. You can't except in your ice encrusted mind. Hope the thaw comes soon to your area.
In short:
You accused me of missing what was written and you were wrong
You accused me of recommending something I did not recommend, and you were wrong
You accused me of supporting or defending a group I do not support or defend and you were wrong.
AND, oh never mind. I said it wasn't worth a reply, but you were wrong anyway...
No, I don't expect this to be taken seriously ever. Look at our political leadership. I have never heard of the specific gang you spoke of until now. Frankly, I was thinking of other neighborhood gangs in this area.
.....snipped.....
The only reasons gangs grow...is because we as a country let them and reservations such as displayed by P-Mosh and HAP encourages it and like fertilizer, helps it to grow.
Hope that was an appropriate response.
First, Eagle, thank you, it was an appropriate response.
Secondly, my stated "reservations" were limited to your paragraph stating "ONE APPROACHING A LOT OF GANGS" by themself, to be armed. I expressed nothing in regards to trained and legally sanctioned action. Therefore, I do not agree that my display fertilizes gangs. I do think it might help someone to live longer if they do not follow your advice. (edit) Upon your explanation, I withdraw your name from those who I suggest should try what I understood you to be saying in the first paragraph of your post. :D (end edit)
I never said that "one should approach a bunch of gang members" even if armed. That does seem to be a recipe for disaster. I just illustrated that by telling the story of my landlords son who was murdered for doing the same thing. He wasn't armed, but there were six of them or more, and he was out numbered, even if he were armed. God bless him for wanting to help a maiden in distress at the hands of sick punk as sed thugs.
But I do believe that if I lived in an area where I may well come into contact with gangbangers-latinos, blacks, asians or whiteboys-I would definitely travel about armed with at least a 12 shot nine mm pistol like the S and W that I do in fact own. And don't mis-read that, for you could if you are dishonest. I meant gang members who are in any ethnic category. Yeah, I'd be carrying. For, I would rather be tried by 12, than carried by six. And my wife and children would prefer that as well. But I certainly would not approach a bunch of punk pieces of crap like that and "confront them" for loitering, or whatever. But, if they approached me, or confronted me, I would rather be armed than not. That's pretty simple, isn't it?
When I go into the woods up here in Alaska, particularly when I fish the rivers when the salmon are running, I am always armed. No mindless bear is going to destroy my family if I can help it.
Thank you also for you explanation jonny. I was working from the first paragraph and I assumed your comment was also related to it, since it IS what you quoted prior to your "better by 12 than 6" comment. I can only understand things as they are written.
Thanks for the post and HAP, thanks for understanding. I think the responses got confused when I said "approach" gang members when I meant "run into" (by accident) gang members. I still believe the organized legal and local trained forces should have authority to go after and root out these people. And I also believe, as Johnny Lingo does, that we have to be individually armed, whether we like it or not, in case our lives are in mortal danger, or worse, finding ourselves in a situation where a woman or child is in danger and the police are not around nor will make it on time even if calling 911 on a phone call.
I also believe (though the Supreme Court disagrees) that the Constitution is addressed to the citizens or legal residents of the United States. The rest are international criminals and either international rules apply or no rules apply. You take away the "right" to the courts here in the United States, access to free medical care, drivers licenses and jobs, and the INS and Border Patrol are vastly increased and have the right to use deadly force against people coming over the border (either side), then watch the applications for legal entry rise so we can control it.
Cool Hap, and thanks for understanding. I really am a nice guy, and seriously hope I am never in a situation like the ones mentioned. But if the choice came down to me, or any of my family, I would make the "deadly force decision" in a heartbeat. I KNOW that I am a good guy, and the same with my wife and kids.
And, sure enough Eagle, I kinda thought that this was what you were thinking...
It really is beyond me how anyone can be the way those guys were to my landlords son. It's just unfathomable. But, they are out there, Believe it.............or Not!
It appears I understood their context and you read into it Hap ... as they have clarified for you. I think they were pretty clear, but still in your follow up you changed what eagle said (If one approaches a lot of gang members,) to "ONE APPROACHING A LOT OF GANGS" by themself You seem to still be trying to justify your misinterpretation.
And you suggest not approaching? What are the options? ... which in some places means you have to run away from them. Probably a good idea if you are alone, but that is surrender.
Do you think Mosh wasn't making it personal when he called them racist? My suggestion is the only way he gets that view is because he has a personal bias. Calling someone a racist is pretty personal. Since Mosh did reveal that info on his wife before, I think it is noteworthy and relevant. It is certainly not an insult to him, I assume she is his better half. But to turn concern about a real and obvious problem of the gangs coming across the border into racism seems needlessly defensive on his part. (The white kid meth gangs point is interesting, I still don't see that as the bigger problem, but some links would be interesting.)
Mosh turned their trained and legal force into "you are insinuating that you want to go around shooting latinos, and you don't care if your militant vigilante gangs murder innocent people". So he completely flipped what they said. Mosh says the innocent that is being dominated by a gang is a murderous, racist, vigilante if they become trained and licensed to carry and defend themselves and their neighborhood. Even an aggresive action to remove gangs from a neighborhood seems defensive to me.
I don't know where you buy or live hap, but it is apparently far from the gangs, or you would know more about them. Even us hicks know about them. It does seem to be PC to defend the rights of the bad guys, more than the rights of the good guys.
You express more outrage at the desire to defend a neighborhood than you do toward the loss of the neighborhood to gangs. You are staking a position. As eagle noted ... "The only reasons gangs grow...is because we as a country let them and reservations such as displayed by P-Mosh and HAP encourages it and like fertilizer, helps it to grow." I think that is right. People are discussing legit concerns and some solutions. Some attack them as nuts, apparently for not running away and/or surrendering.
On the news they speak of the nearby city as "having a culture of violence", we have more murder than NYC per capita.
it is bad here. Most are from NYC and have been lets say replaced to a new area. The cross fire kills many children every year. Most families do not allow the kids to go outside.
the city is nearly completly segreated, from the surrounding towns, with most minorities living within the borders of the city.
Is this racist?
yep but it is also the facts. poverty more than skin color has to do with the gang work, one of our white bread suburban senators had his daughter killed while she traveled one night into the wrong neighborhood(to buy drugs has always been the question) and he made his platform for the office on her death.
what does he really know about why these groups form and become so powerful?
nothing other than they killed his child and now he has the power to make a change but cant.
Im not racist but i wont live in the city it is to dangerous and the city leaders say it has a culture of violence so why would I ?
sure I believe we live in a racist country , and the problems that com about becuase of this fact are very real.
We already have "organized legal and local trained forces." They may not be gun toters, but they can be just as, if not more, powerful. They're called our community.
Where are the schools? Why aren't they offering after school and weekend activities? Where are the churches? What happened to The Boys and Girls Club, and The Scouts? What is anyone on this thread doing to offer a viable alternative?
There may be adults in these gangs, but most of the members are children, as young as nine or ten. Do you really want a task force to kill children?
I became quite good friends with a man I worked with my first WOW year. He was extremely active in many anti-gang groups, nieghborhood watch, teaching firearms saftey and marksmanship.
You see there were gangs of 8 to 12 year old kids that bagged and carried groceries of all things; to which his 60 year old wife refused one day. He found her gang raped and beaten to death with hammers.
To quote him:" these were not children, they were mad-dogs and decent society can only do one thing with mad-dogs"
Since I do not know what threads were deleted, and my posts are still intact, I assume he did not mean this part of the discussion. Just the same, I will make one more clarification.
It appears I understood their context and you read into it Hap ... as they have clarified for you. I think they were pretty clear, but still in your follow up you changed what eagle said (If one approaches a lot of gang members,) to "ONE APPROACHING A LOT OF GANGS" by themself You seem to still be trying to justify your misinterpretation.
As both Jonny and Eagle have said, they understand what I was saying, and agree at least on this: Not wise to approach a lot of gang members on your own, armed or not, with the exception of course of the immediate need to defend oneself or another member of the community. You on the other hand continue to read something else into my posts, context or not. To everyone else, I have been made clear. You still don't get it. This is ALL I addressed on the issue. Period. Eagle even clarified he was not specifically speaking of any particular gang. There is no need to justify any misinterpretation, I made none. I simply further explained my thoughts on the first of Eagle's two scenarios. Eagle made two statements, one I disagreed with, the other I did not address. My third citation of the post was in "fast reply" mode which does not allow me to go back to a distant post to copy and paste. My emphasis has always been on the word "ONE" (approaches). Frankly, it is unlikely anyone will ever see a lot of gangs together in one spot. They are rather territorial. Action by a legally sanctioned force would not USUALLY result in a trial except when there are aggravating circumstances, therefore the "better tried by 12 than carried by 6" applies only to individual action in most cases.
(HAP searches around for Garth's "dead horse" pic). Never mind, I will surrender to Rhino, cut and run, all those "liberal" propensities. (sound of HAP breathing deeply)
And you suggest not approaching? What are the options? ... which in some places means you have to run away from them. Probably a good idea if you are alone, but that is surrender.
Yes, at that moment, run away, assuming those you see are indeed a gang, and not just a group of folks hanging out together enjoying each other's similiar backgrounds. It is not surrender if one lives to fight another day, in another manner, with legal backing.
(.....snipped....)
I don't know where you buy or live hap, but it is apparently far from the gangs, or you would know more about them. Even us hicks know about them. It does seem to be PC to defend the rights of the bad guys, more than the rights of the good guys.
What is it I have indicated here that I "don't know about gangs?". ANYTHING? Let's see, I admitted they exist and can be dangerous, I admitted neighborhoods should be LEGALLY defended from them. I have removed gang-related graffitti, (generally considered by most authorities to be the first stage of neighborhood defense). what else do you want me to know?
You express more outrage at the desire to defend a neighborhood than you do toward the loss of the neighborhood to gangs. You are staking a position. (...snipped...)
I never expressed any outrage WHATSOEVER at the desire to defend a neighborhood. You made that up. The only position I staked was that it was not advisable for an individual to approach "alot of gang members", armed or not, to which Jonny and Eagle have both graciously agreed. do you get it yet? If not, like I said before, go ahead and try it. (with your adrenaline and testosterone flowing heavily of course)
~HAP (riding off on that proverbial dead horse)
(MY APOLOGIES, PAW, IF THESE ARE THE RESPONSES YOU REFERRED TO- GO AHEAD AND DELETE IN THAT CASE)
i have never had the honor,woops meant horror of living in fear of gangs
up here in smalltowm usa we just ain't got them...yet...
if they come they will not be welcomed
and even if they are young kids{damn this is so sad,where are thier parent}i would rather them recieve my shotgun blast than me or mine recieve thiers. damn what a shame this is so blatent in OUR wonderful country
Belle, I've lived in 'gang infested' neighborhoods for nearly 30 years. The most harm that has ever come to me has been from those trying to do good, not those in the gangs.
CW, I'm wondering about your observations of these gangs you have lived in the midst of. Once you know them I'd guess you are accepted and not a threat. But is this a gang that does "bad stuff" to other people? I'm not opposed to friendly gangs, like Boy Scout troops or little league teams.
What are the solutions when the gangs are outside the law, and a danger to you or visitors to your home? The idea that the gang members are OK, as long as you don't cross them or stand up to them seems too submissive to me. I'm just wondering with gun toting, drug dealing, aggressive gang members.
Hap, of course I understand what you are saying ... but thanks for suggesting I go ahead and confront some killers. My point was simply that the derision toward those that advised carrying instead of submitting seems wrong. Several females seem willing to carry a firearm. Positive suggestions for dealing with an MS-13 gang in your neighborhood are welcome. Perhaps 6th grade is already too late to start.
One thing they did near me in New Orleans was open a gym late at night for basketball leagues. But it does seem some gangs from south of the border have been raised with a different set of societal rules, and have negative impact on those that are still weighing their options.
We have gangs of coyotes here .. I shoot to kill because they are merciless killers. It really was kind of interesting, becasue the cows seemed to actually understand I was their protection. They will tell you where the threat is because they'll all be watching when there are a couple coyotes checking them out. I find just taking a couple shots at them tends to keep coyotes out of the neighborhood. I guess you can't randomly shoot at people, (as much as some seem to think I'd prefer to do), but it does seem these gangs don't respect weakness.
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CoolWaters
M13 spreads from El Salvador to LA...?????
My next door neighbors are straight from El Salvador. They bought the house next door the same week we bought our house.
They are tree men...which means they do tree trimming, tree removal, tree doctoring and all things tree. They did over $5000.00 worth of tree work for us at no charge just to be neighborly. We didn't even ask...and didn't know it was being done until we got home after an out of town trip and it was all done.
I know they have guns, too. When the American and white crack heads come down to our little paradise and want to turn tricks and blow crack and steal, our neighbors cap a few rounds in the dirt and chase them off.
I also know they run in big groups of 10 or more. In fact, sometimes there are 30 or more. And they're all carrying sharpened sticks and black 33 gallon garbage bags and spray paint cans. Oh, did I forget to say that these gang-like groups of El Salvadorans are cleaning up the neighborhood with those black sticks and garbage bags?
In fact, I would have to credit those gang-like El Salvadorans with getting rid of the real crime in our little neck of the woods.
We help them, too.
Maybe I'm an M13 and don't know it...????????
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herbiejuan
After I saw how disorganized the Katrina evacuation was I had a bad feeling about an upswing in gang related activity in host communities. I doubt anybody from the Dept of Corrections and Probation gave much thought to the impact thousands of parolee's and gangbangers would have on the rest of the country.
Gangs are dangerous and taking them on can get you or your family hurt or killed. The police are paid to deal with them, I suggest you let them. However if you happen to be in the barbershop and overhear something of interest it is your civic duty to pass on the info to the authorities.
A program called Lucky 7's has met with limited success.
http://www.metroactive.com/papers/metro/01...olice-9901.html
The only downside to it is most of the gangbangers move so it does not *solve* the problem, it just moves it down the road a town or two.
From what I have read, good intelligence and interdepartmental cooperation helps considerably when tackling gangs. Having the full support of the PD, City Council and special interest groups can minimize negative publicity and consitutional challenges that might arise from implimenting a get tough program. There are funds available for tackling some of the underlying causes that lead to gang membership, however it would take a skilled adminstrator to handle the diverse demands such a program would require.
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Belle
We've had the Guardian Angels down here from NYC training folks to take over in our most gang infested areas. They've only just gotten here, so I can't tell you if they're making any sort of impact.
Funny, I don't recall reading anything along the lines of, "every single person from El Salvador" is a member of the M-13 Gang." <_< Heck, I don't even remember El Salvador being mentioned on this thread till you brought it up, CW. What's the deal? There's a link to an article that states where the M-13 gang originated, but even that doesn't draw the conclusions you're sharpening your claws over.
Also, if your neighbors are in a gang (particularly M-13), then remember that just because they appear to be helping.... don't be deceived - they're still gang members - you just happen to be on their good side for the time being.
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rhino
MS-13 is a nasty bunch of killers ... a civilian watch group with legal authority to carry would have some training. Are you defending the MS-13 killers over the innocent civilians "mixed up mosh"? It sure sounds like it. But it is revealing that your first line of argument is profanity and personal insult.
Then you play the race card ... yes I know, we can't touch you because you married a latino, so us whities better STFU, right? While MS-13 kills innocents, you will righteously protect their civil rights. Then you diagnose Eagle ... you must also be a psychologist. I thinks you are way too full of yourself and way too wrong. Gawd help us.
Reread your message mosh pit, and apply those insults to yourself ... the inner you is trying to tell you something ...
1. nucking futs
2. supporting MS13 murder of innocents
3. sick individual, need psychological help ... close to endangering others
Are you already an MS-13 member?
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J0nny Ling0
Ya know Rhino, that was superbly put. Mr. P-Mosh certainly did step in his d i c k there...
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Dot Matrix
I work with three people from El Salvador
They told me about the gangs. I did not know/remember they were M 13
In El salvador Betty's mother has nothing very nice. Betty said the gangs roam the streets, look in the windows and if you own anything nice they break in and take it.
Betty is a great person.
But she moved out of Norcr*ss because of the gangs there (we work there) one morning there were two dead bodies ouside of her apartment complex.
So, yes. She and I have worked together to try and get the criminals out of our area at work. (Calling the polie, chasing away the men in the woods, picking up the trash in the yard.) But she is very aware and tries to inform me about these people.
Looks like the gangs have moved 45 minutes north into my neighborhood now. But I think these folks are really more kids of Katrina trying to break bad.
I offered to take Betty to the shooting range, she may opt for tear gas.
The El Salvador guy I work with was jumped by a different guy from El Salvador at his 2nd job and he was almost knifed -- but a couple others came to his aid and they overpowered the knife guy. Knife guy is now in jail
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HAPe4me
WARNING: DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!!!!!!!!! (Eagle's, Jonny's. and Rhino's plan)
Encouraging people who find themselves approaching a lot of gang members to do so armed, seems to me to be a recipe for disaster., and indeed nucking futs! What, are you going to take them ALL out without being carried out in a box yourself? Not likely. Certainly not something I would recommend to anyone I liked. Those of you who think otherwise, GO FOR IT! I will be happy to say a word or two for you in the Memorium Forum, and there I promise to be kind, out of respect for your survivors.
Eagle's post was not directly pointed to M13, at least in its wording nor in my understanding of it. It really makes no difference what gang it was anyway. He DID point to "the blight coming over the border", thus opened the door himself to Mosh's post. He, not Mosh, played the "race card". Thanks Mosh for pointing out who REALLY cares about the Constitution on this board. We can see clearly now.
(Yikes again)
~HAP
(edited to correct "Mark" to "Mosh")
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Ductape
While I won't go looking for bangers to bust a cap in, I won't hesitate to accommodate if they mess with me or mine. I know all my family members sleep better since the huge influx of crime that parallels the same increase in illegals in my son's area was meet with a 40 auto for a birthday present.
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rhino
The topic is gangs hap .. how could you miss that unless you were really trying to miss it? OK, VP is right on this ... "immediate context" ... they are outlaws that dominate some neighborhoods (and you suggest surrender) The most vicious gangs are coming across the border. I tried to tell you this a year ago or so and you said you had never heard of that problem then. Have you still not heard of it? Wake up, it is probably even in Boulder ... but you don't buy in those neighborhoods ...
Are you guys really so PC that you feel compelled to defend MS-13?
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Eagle
Concerning the opposition to the founding philosophy (yes, founding philosophy of our country) that we form trained neighborhood or regional groups (militias) that have legal authority granted by the state, organized in such a fashion to recognize, spot trouble (frankly, the enemy within our borders), and when threatened, we do not first consider their rights but first consider our lives. The "blight over the border" is exactly that, an illegal blight...foreign gangs infiltrating with local gangs to form a dangerous armed force against the citizenry.
You spot them, you surround them first, and if necessary, shoot them. You drive them out. Make it unprofitable to be here. No, it is not pointed specifically at Latinos, or even Arabs. It is easy to use that analogy or race card because the ones coming over are mostly this group. It could be European gangs doing the same thing. The same principle would apply.
No, I don't expect this to be taken seriously ever. Look at our political leadership. I have never heard of the specific gang you spoke of until now. Frankly, I was thinking of other neighborhood gangs in this area.
But, don't worry, for those siding with the gangs, they face no harm from local neighborhood watches and they know it.
The only reasons gangs grow...is because we as a country let them and reservations such as displayed by P-Mosh and HAP encourages it and like fertilizer, helps it to grow.
Hope that was an appropriate response.
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HAPe4me
Peace out-
~HAP (edited to correct "Mark" to "Mosh")
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HAPe4me
First, Eagle, thank you, it was an appropriate response.
Secondly, my stated "reservations" were limited to your paragraph stating "ONE APPROACHING A LOT OF GANGS" by themself, to be armed. I expressed nothing in regards to trained and legally sanctioned action. Therefore, I do not agree that my display fertilizes gangs. I do think it might help someone to live longer if they do not follow your advice. (edit) Upon your explanation, I withdraw your name from those who I suggest should try what I understood you to be saying in the first paragraph of your post. :D (end edit)
~HAP
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J0nny Ling0
I never said that "one should approach a bunch of gang members" even if armed. That does seem to be a recipe for disaster. I just illustrated that by telling the story of my landlords son who was murdered for doing the same thing. He wasn't armed, but there were six of them or more, and he was out numbered, even if he were armed. God bless him for wanting to help a maiden in distress at the hands of sick punk as sed thugs.
But I do believe that if I lived in an area where I may well come into contact with gangbangers-latinos, blacks, asians or whiteboys-I would definitely travel about armed with at least a 12 shot nine mm pistol like the S and W that I do in fact own. And don't mis-read that, for you could if you are dishonest. I meant gang members who are in any ethnic category. Yeah, I'd be carrying. For, I would rather be tried by 12, than carried by six. And my wife and children would prefer that as well. But I certainly would not approach a bunch of punk pieces of crap like that and "confront them" for loitering, or whatever. But, if they approached me, or confronted me, I would rather be armed than not. That's pretty simple, isn't it?
When I go into the woods up here in Alaska, particularly when I fish the rivers when the salmon are running, I am always armed. No mindless bear is going to destroy my family if I can help it.
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HAPe4me
Thank you also for you explanation jonny. I was working from the first paragraph and I assumed your comment was also related to it, since it IS what you quoted prior to your "better by 12 than 6" comment. I can only understand things as they are written.
~HAP
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Eagle
Lingo,
Thanks for the post and HAP, thanks for understanding. I think the responses got confused when I said "approach" gang members when I meant "run into" (by accident) gang members. I still believe the organized legal and local trained forces should have authority to go after and root out these people. And I also believe, as Johnny Lingo does, that we have to be individually armed, whether we like it or not, in case our lives are in mortal danger, or worse, finding ourselves in a situation where a woman or child is in danger and the police are not around nor will make it on time even if calling 911 on a phone call.
I also believe (though the Supreme Court disagrees) that the Constitution is addressed to the citizens or legal residents of the United States. The rest are international criminals and either international rules apply or no rules apply. You take away the "right" to the courts here in the United States, access to free medical care, drivers licenses and jobs, and the INS and Border Patrol are vastly increased and have the right to use deadly force against people coming over the border (either side), then watch the applications for legal entry rise so we can control it.
IMHO
(In My Horrendous Opinion!)
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J0nny Ling0
Cool Hap, and thanks for understanding. I really am a nice guy, and seriously hope I am never in a situation like the ones mentioned. But if the choice came down to me, or any of my family, I would make the "deadly force decision" in a heartbeat. I KNOW that I am a good guy, and the same with my wife and kids.
And, sure enough Eagle, I kinda thought that this was what you were thinking...
It really is beyond me how anyone can be the way those guys were to my landlords son. It's just unfathomable. But, they are out there, Believe it.............or Not!
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rhino
It appears I understood their context and you read into it Hap ... as they have clarified for you. I think they were pretty clear, but still in your follow up you changed what eagle said (If one approaches a lot of gang members,) to "ONE APPROACHING A LOT OF GANGS" by themself You seem to still be trying to justify your misinterpretation.
And you suggest not approaching? What are the options? ... which in some places means you have to run away from them. Probably a good idea if you are alone, but that is surrender.
Do you think Mosh wasn't making it personal when he called them racist? My suggestion is the only way he gets that view is because he has a personal bias. Calling someone a racist is pretty personal. Since Mosh did reveal that info on his wife before, I think it is noteworthy and relevant. It is certainly not an insult to him, I assume she is his better half. But to turn concern about a real and obvious problem of the gangs coming across the border into racism seems needlessly defensive on his part. (The white kid meth gangs point is interesting, I still don't see that as the bigger problem, but some links would be interesting.)
Mosh turned their trained and legal force into "you are insinuating that you want to go around shooting latinos, and you don't care if your militant vigilante gangs murder innocent people". So he completely flipped what they said. Mosh says the innocent that is being dominated by a gang is a murderous, racist, vigilante if they become trained and licensed to carry and defend themselves and their neighborhood. Even an aggresive action to remove gangs from a neighborhood seems defensive to me.
I don't know where you buy or live hap, but it is apparently far from the gangs, or you would know more about them. Even us hicks know about them. It does seem to be PC to defend the rights of the bad guys, more than the rights of the good guys.
You express more outrage at the desire to defend a neighborhood than you do toward the loss of the neighborhood to gangs. You are staking a position. As eagle noted ... "The only reasons gangs grow...is because we as a country let them and reservations such as displayed by P-Mosh and HAP encourages it and like fertilizer, helps it to grow." I think that is right. People are discussing legit concerns and some solutions. Some attack them as nuts, apparently for not running away and/or surrendering.
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pond
On the news they speak of the nearby city as "having a culture of violence", we have more murder than NYC per capita.
it is bad here. Most are from NYC and have been lets say replaced to a new area. The cross fire kills many children every year. Most families do not allow the kids to go outside.
the city is nearly completly segreated, from the surrounding towns, with most minorities living within the borders of the city.
Is this racist?
yep but it is also the facts. poverty more than skin color has to do with the gang work, one of our white bread suburban senators had his daughter killed while she traveled one night into the wrong neighborhood(to buy drugs has always been the question) and he made his platform for the office on her death.
what does he really know about why these groups form and become so powerful?
nothing other than they killed his child and now he has the power to make a change but cant.
Im not racist but i wont live in the city it is to dangerous and the city leaders say it has a culture of violence so why would I ?
sure I believe we live in a racist country , and the problems that com about becuase of this fact are very real.
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VeganXTC
We already have "organized legal and local trained forces." They may not be gun toters, but they can be just as, if not more, powerful. They're called our community.
Where are the schools? Why aren't they offering after school and weekend activities? Where are the churches? What happened to The Boys and Girls Club, and The Scouts? What is anyone on this thread doing to offer a viable alternative?
There may be adults in these gangs, but most of the members are children, as young as nine or ten. Do you really want a task force to kill children?
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Ductape
I became quite good friends with a man I worked with my first WOW year. He was extremely active in many anti-gang groups, nieghborhood watch, teaching firearms saftey and marksmanship.
You see there were gangs of 8 to 12 year old kids that bagged and carried groceries of all things; to which his 60 year old wife refused one day. He found her gang raped and beaten to death with hammers.
To quote him:" these were not children, they were mad-dogs and decent society can only do one thing with mad-dogs"
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pawtucket
Jumping Jiminy I deleted the threads, you two (you know who you are) Now STOP it
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HAPe4me
Since I do not know what threads were deleted, and my posts are still intact, I assume he did not mean this part of the discussion. Just the same, I will make one more clarification.
I never expressed any outrage WHATSOEVER at the desire to defend a neighborhood. You made that up. The only position I staked was that it was not advisable for an individual to approach "alot of gang members", armed or not, to which Jonny and Eagle have both graciously agreed. do you get it yet? If not, like I said before, go ahead and try it. (with your adrenaline and testosterone flowing heavily of course)
~HAP (riding off on that proverbial dead horse)
(MY APOLOGIES, PAW, IF THESE ARE THE RESPONSES YOU REFERRED TO- GO AHEAD AND DELETE IN THAT CASE)
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coolchef
i have never had the honor,woops meant horror of living in fear of gangs
up here in smalltowm usa we just ain't got them...yet...
if they come they will not be welcomed
and even if they are young kids{damn this is so sad,where are thier parent}i would rather them recieve my shotgun blast than me or mine recieve thiers. damn what a shame this is so blatent in OUR wonderful country
maybe they should go back to thiers.
and ya i know not all of them are boarder jumpers
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rhino
What are the solutions when the gangs are outside the law, and a danger to you or visitors to your home? The idea that the gang members are OK, as long as you don't cross them or stand up to them seems too submissive to me. I'm just wondering with gun toting, drug dealing, aggressive gang members.
Hap, of course I understand what you are saying ... but thanks for suggesting I go ahead and confront some killers. My point was simply that the derision toward those that advised carrying instead of submitting seems wrong. Several females seem willing to carry a firearm. Positive suggestions for dealing with an MS-13 gang in your neighborhood are welcome. Perhaps 6th grade is already too late to start.
One thing they did near me in New Orleans was open a gym late at night for basketball leagues. But it does seem some gangs from south of the border have been raised with a different set of societal rules, and have negative impact on those that are still weighing their options.
We have gangs of coyotes here .. I shoot to kill because they are merciless killers. It really was kind of interesting, becasue the cows seemed to actually understand I was their protection. They will tell you where the threat is because they'll all be watching when there are a couple coyotes checking them out. I find just taking a couple shots at them tends to keep coyotes out of the neighborhood. I guess you can't randomly shoot at people, (as much as some seem to think I'd prefer to do), but it does seem these gangs don't respect weakness.
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