*** Both the originals from Paul and the collaterals from Victor Paul are "by revelation of Jesus Christ." As Dr said, "I didn't write the book."
***
snip
But what REALLY went wrong is that we all, both on the field and at root locales of all sorts, fell short, far short of receiving the material in print.
snip
So, we can't blame the printed teachings one iota for what went wrong with TWI-1.
snip
The clergy must be held accountable for blowing it on missing the call(s) to master printed PFAL!
I'm getting out of here before the Topic Police show up...
Just say something... ANYTHING about CFF.....
wel thank you Mike i understand your answer other than the bit with marsha .
so no one can fully master it so in behaviour you can for the rest of our life remind somone how they are just not quite arrived yet... it sounds very much like my muscle is bigger than yours type of behaviour creating competition in a very fleshy manner without any sense of holy spirit that Jesus sent to every personwho bekives romans 10;9 ,10 in which He teaches each person has the ability to hear from the ONLY teacher we ever need ( yes the bible says Jesus is the only teacher we need)
thx again
THIS bold font section was what I was commenting on.
cff continues to teach the errors (and lies) of twi...
for that reason alone, i would warn people about getting involved with cff...
why would anyone want to fill their head with more false teaching?
for if they accept the teachings of a false prophet like vpw, then they are still in the dark!
and if the blind lead the blind, then they will both fall into a pit...
[okay there... are we back on topic now?]
Let's get more specific, because there are TWO KINDS of teaching that came from TWI: the written and the verbal.
You wrote: "cff continues to teach the errors (and lies) of twi..."
Yes, they are not well equipped to root out the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), including all the elitism that poisoned us. Because they never mastered the written part of PFAL and are determined to "re-write" that without that mastery, they are doomed to failure in rooting out a number of old problems.
***
You also wrote: "if they accept the teachings of a false prophet like vpw, then they are still in the dark"
As I reported Post #193, they are rejecting the accuracy of the printed teachings of Dr (the good stuff) but they are no more able to root out the TVTs (the bad stuff) than they were when they were grunts for LCM.
I think they are far more interested in reeling in the still many grads who respect the good teaching that was in the class and collaterals, than they are in getting the good stuff mastered.
Yes, they are not well equipped to root out the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), including all the elitism that poisoned us. Because they never mastered the written part of PFAL and are determined to "re-write" that without that mastery, they are doomed to failure in rooting out a number of old problems.
Mike...Give it a rest, the "written part of PFAL" was as flawed as the verbal traditions. I'm sorry that you are unable to see that.
I'd like to see their "official" stance on the new corpsie thingy..
1. What do you REALLY think about it..
2. Is it something you'd recommend for young folks to enhance their "ministries" or whatever..
3. How do you feel about an essentially young, egotistical (or ego pumped) UNPROVEN, not even around the block once in life yet person supposedly coordinating it..
4. Do the "graduates" have pretty much a guaranteed "function" awaiting in your ministry..
5. Are you on the board among the "kid"'s advisors? Did you just kind of agree, "well, if it's da will of gawd..."
6. YOU "trained" him.. is he "functioning" within the guidelines of his "training"?
7. Why do you put his link on the top of the list on your site?
8. Do you agree with Mc*M**en's thought that the property of der vey is "holy" ground, that the powers that be are holding hostage? I read a page once on his internet site.. his high estimation of way property supposedly held captive by those who rule..
8. if he's the one really running it, don't you have at least a few concerns?
I checked out CFF when I was first leaving TWI. I knew some of the ministers who were heading the thing and felt they were really trying to do the right thing with the Word they'd been taught. They were some of the most genuine men of God I've ever known (two have passed away since CFF started.)
I am also one of the few posters here who will openly admit I'm glad I took PFAL. I think it changed my life for the better and really don't give a rat's anus if there was plagiary or other issues. The message worked for me - and yes, the messenger was flawed.
But I digress...
If it works for you and your family, then go for it. I wouldn't ask this board in a million years for their input on my spiritual life. There's way too many haters, to put it bluntly and as I see it, if you're considering it then you must have checked it out (somewhat) already.
PFAL??? Mike??? Again???? I thought you were hiding somewhere else on GSC.
Well, if you look back at Post #193 you'll see that I posted something simple, on-topic, and was ready to move on. I struggled valiantly to keep it on the CFF topic, but everyone else wanted to bring up other things that led directly to my bringing up the written PFAL deprivation.
But this shouldn't be surprising. If my thesis is right, that most of our difficulties were due to missing the written PFAL component, and the difficulties are the mainstay of most posters, then OF COURSE my message is going to always emerge as what went wrong and how to right it.
Man's basic spiritual problem is the integrity and accuracy of God's Word is not alive in the mind. This holds for CFF as well.
9. How many of your "clergy" were ordained or certified by an independant, reputable school of learning, besides YOU or the Way?
10. How do you feel about old "doc" vic, not really being a "doc"?
11. Plagiarism issues.. are you aware that the "heritage" he "left us" was largely stolen? How do you feel about that?
12. How can you reconcile a belief that he was somehow a monogawd, with his history of documented abuse and evil?
13. Why would you allow a supposed prophet or something fawning over him publically, that what he has was due to da manogawd.. knowing full well the appropriate answers to question 10, 11, 12..
14. Do you really have a memorial to vic on grounds?
well.. these are the kind of questions I might ask, if I wanted to get involved with an offshoot..
I checked out CFF when I was first leaving TWI. I knew some of the ministers who were heading the thing and felt they were really trying to do the right thing with the Word they'd been taught. They were some of the most genuine men of God I've ever known (two have passed away since CFF started.)
I am also one of the few posters here who will openly admit I'm glad I took PFAL. I think it changed by life for the better and really don't give a rat's anus if there was plagiary or other issues. The message worked for me - and yes, the messenger was flawed.
But I digress...
If it works for you and your family, then go for it. I wouldn't ask this board in a million years for their input on my spiritual life. There's way too many haters, to put it bluntly and as I see it, if you're considering it then you must have checked it out (somewhat) already.
Best of luck to you in your search!
I'd like to second this, and also comment on the OTHER side of the coin as I see it.
Compared to many of the splinter groups I have approached in the last 10 years, CFF is about the most civil and gentle.
There are other - non-TWI-associated - groups that also do a good job teaching the Word and the principals in it. I've not found any local who I can really sign-on with because they're all trinitarian but they do a decent job in all other areas...
What I'm trying to say is check things out for yourself - figure out what fits best for you - but also don't limit God.
Compared to many of the splinter groups I have approached in the last 10 years, CFF is about the most civil and gentle.
so was twi, before the vicster got to "train" a few storm troopers..
15. Would you really recommend a session of harsh treatment as a road to spiritual success?
16. How many kids from your organization are involved with this madness..
And maybe the biggie..
17. Why does the kid think that all the "bad stuff" was just because of a few rotten apples.. why does he feel history is irrelevant.. that those who hurt are just "bitter".. why is he not really aware of the consequences of gramps beliefs and actions? Didn''t you teach him ANYTHING?
well.. a few more questions, anyway.. I've got more where those came from..
man's basic spiritual problem is that he does not repent of his sin, and turn toward the Savior, the Lord Jesus the Messiah...
That's pretty much the same thing I just said.
Sin is where we have the Word wrong in our minds, which sometimes even leaks out into our actions. Repenting from sin is more than completing a 12 Step program to stop some action. Repenting is changing the mind from wrong thinking to right thinking.
Messiah (Hebrew) = Christ (Greek)
Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, so turning to him accurately and wholly (integrity = wholeness) is the same as turning to the accuracy and integrity of the Word.
I liken it to "my muscle (energized by God) is bigger than he (the adversary) that is in this world, and likewise are my spiritual siblings being bigger."
***
Christ most certainly IS the teacher, spiritually, not Dr. Wierwille. Same for the Epistles of Paul. They are really the Epistles of Christ from his ministry seated at the right hand of God, instead of his previous ministry on earth as recorded in the four gospels. Both the originals from Paul and the collaterals from Victor Paul are "by revelation of Jesus Christ." As Dr said, "I didn't write the book."
***
You also wrote: “...so in behavior you can for the rest of our life remind someone how they are just not quite arrived yet...”
Yes, I can. But that wouldn’t be love, so instead of moving TOWARDS mastering the Word (with it mastering me) I’d then be moving AWAY from mastery if I used my past ten years of study to lord it over someone with less. Sure, I can get very feisty here with those who try to out-feisty me, but I try to quickly calm right down and look for ways to bless with what God has shown me in these ten years.
In the SNS teaching “Christ Formed In You” Dr addressed this subject. The SNS tapes were not copyrighted, and have been openly marketed by several grad groups for years now. With that and with fair use in mind let’s see what Dr said on that SNS tape #732 from November 24, 1974:
In II Peter is a tremendous truth, chapter 3, verse 18.
II Peter 3:18: But grow in [what?] grace [grow in grace], and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Grow in grace. The word "grace" literally could be translated "love's gifts." Grace is always God, who is love, at work. Love at work is grace. It says "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ."
It doesn't say "grow in the knowledge of scripture." The Way Ministry's loaded with that stuff at times, but no love. We've got grads of the class on Power for Abundant Living, I wish I'd never taught them. All they do is prance around showing how much knowledge of the scriptures they have and make everybody else that hasn't got that knowledge feel badly, if they can.
Why my goodness, what did I ever teach them God's Word for? It breaks my heart. It's not the knowledge of the scripture you know, but the extent to which you know Him and walk in the love wherewith He loved.
Nothing wrong with knowledge of the scripture, but it looks to me you haven't got enough knowledge if you don't apply it, and you ought to read a few verses that tell you how to put it on, how to love with the love wherewith He loved, how to forgive with the forgiveness for which He forgives, how to keep your tongue under control so you don't go blabbing everything all the time.
It's an unruly evil, remember? The tongue. No man can tame it, so quit trying to tame it, let God tame it. He's the only one that can do it, otherwise you're always gonna have the running off of the tongue.
Grow in grace. That growing in grace is to grow in the love-life of Christ, like you can grow in the new birth, you can't get more spiritually. Then in the growing of it is in the renewed mind and in the walk.
Grow in grace. Love at work in your life by God through Christ who saved us when we were totally dead in trespasses and sins, without God and without hope, people. He loved us enough that He saved us. Can you and I really, if we know what that means, do less than endeavor to build the grace of God in our minds and the love wherewith He loved, to share that love.
So, it's not a knowledge of the scriptures, but what? Do I love? How do I love with that knowledge?
Does anyone have a “Back to Topic” emoticon? ;)
This may help!
Remember what Dr. said?
"Do you know why you have a problem forgiving? It is because you have forgotten what God has forgiven you for!!!"
In TNDC, pg. 172, The Church Today Dr writes;
Division always frustrates Christian efforts. May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only-begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be a part of the problem and become a part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to His Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessing to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.
I sure love ALL of you, for as God said in
HIS word "FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGTTON SON!"
All my Love,
Neo
I was involved with cff, and can tell you that they are NOT teaching what Dr. realy said and wrote!!!
in the last days, people who warn others will be called "haters"... they will also be called "intolerant"...
man's basic spiritual problem is that he does not repent of his sin, and turn toward the Savior, the Lord Jesus the Messiah...
Hi Jen-O - I don't believe we've met via this board yet. A belated welcome to you.
Let me clarify my useage of the term "haters" I used in my post:
I have NO problem (and nothing but sympathy) for those who hate VPW, LCM, etc. for what they had to deal with while subjected to them. I believe the woman who repeatedly defend themselves about their experiences in the motor coach or elsewhere. Same for those who suffered any other abuse at the hands of "men of God". I also have NO problem with those who don't wish to participate in organized religion of any sort - they've been burned - I respect that. I have my war stories, let me tell you, but I also have some very positive things that came out of my involvement with TWI.
I DO have problem with those who tear down others and are disrespectful of their experiences and beliefs only because they had a bad experience (or have heard bad things about a class or organization.) If you're not sure what I'm talking about, check out any Momentus thread. People love spewing their opinion on that subject even though they haven't had any firsthand experience AND they're willing to really dog those who actually had a positive experience from it. I can tell you, firsthand, of threats my husband received from a poster at Waydale because he posted he had a positive experience with Momentus and felt he was a better believer from it - he also said he didn't subscribe to everything they taught but that he filtered it though the Word. He was treated horribly by others because of his comments and received emails threatening his job as a public school teacher because of his involvement with Momentus and because he didn't denounce it! (That's a hater, my Dear.)
The "haters" are those who give no consideration to where others are at in their spiritual life and look down their nose, into their computer monitors, as they tell others how to live their lives and how weak they are for being believers. There's some of that on this board, in case you haven't seen it. Personally, I'm of the point of view that "if it works for you - do it." I'm very tolerant of those who are into other avenues of spirituality and don't pretend to have a stranglehold on the truth like I used to. I don't care if you're Muslim, Wiccian, Baptist, or with CFF - or even still with TWI. I may not understand *why* something works for you - but I'll respect your decision.
My apologies to you if you had a bad experience with CFF. I didn't have a bad experience but was good friends with one of the founders. They were there for me when I left TWI and very helpful - even though I never gave them a dime or really asked for any help. They gave emotional and spiritual support to me at a time when I needed it. I never "joined" but can see how their teachings are attractive to those who, like me, aren't trinitarian, don't believe the dead are alive, etc.
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waysider
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Mike
waysider,
You quoted me thusly: "Both the originals from Paul and the collaterals from Victor Paul are "by revelation of Jesus Christ."
Yes, Paul claimed that in Galatians 1:12, and Dr claimed it JCNG page 9.
Did you miss that?
I mean we all had JCNG... didn't you read the introduction?
Page 9 is in the introduction.
7th edition that is.
It was in italic print.
I assume you knew about the Paul one.
You DID? Didn't you?
***
But waysider, aren't you derailing a little?
How's your post related to CFF? ;)
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waysider
Well there you have it.
Dr. claimed he got it by revelation(page 9 of JCNG /per Mike) so, of course, it must be true.
I'll tell you that when you tell me how your commercial for PFAL is on topic.
(Not the circular logic version.)
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Mike
still no CFF reference....
I'm getting out of here before the Topic Police show up...
Just say something... ANYTHING about CFF.....
THIS bold font section was what I was commenting on.
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jen-o
cff continues to teach the errors (and lies) of twi...
for that reason alone, i would warn people about getting involved with cff...
why would anyone want to fill their head with more false teaching?
for if they accept the teachings of a false prophet like vpw, then they are still in the dark!
and if the blind lead the blind, then they will both fall into a pit...
[okay there... are we back on topic now?]
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Mike
Let's get more specific, because there are TWO KINDS of teaching that came from TWI: the written and the verbal.
You wrote: "cff continues to teach the errors (and lies) of twi..."
Yes, they are not well equipped to root out the TVTs (Twi Verbal Traditions), including all the elitism that poisoned us. Because they never mastered the written part of PFAL and are determined to "re-write" that without that mastery, they are doomed to failure in rooting out a number of old problems.
***
You also wrote: "if they accept the teachings of a false prophet like vpw, then they are still in the dark"
As I reported Post #193, they are rejecting the accuracy of the printed teachings of Dr (the good stuff) but they are no more able to root out the TVTs (the bad stuff) than they were when they were grunts for LCM.
I think they are far more interested in reeling in the still many grads who respect the good teaching that was in the class and collaterals, than they are in getting the good stuff mastered.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Mike...Give it a rest, the "written part of PFAL" was as flawed as the verbal traditions. I'm sorry that you are unable to see that.
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Mike
I don't think that's right at all.
Plus, I think that people who haven't cracked the books in 20 years are in NO position to judge what's in them.
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Nottawayfer
Dang! I thought this thread was about CFF.
PFAL??? Mike??? Again???? I thought you were hiding somewhere else on GSC.
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Ham
I'd like to see their "official" stance on the new corpsie thingy..
1. What do you REALLY think about it..
2. Is it something you'd recommend for young folks to enhance their "ministries" or whatever..
3. How do you feel about an essentially young, egotistical (or ego pumped) UNPROVEN, not even around the block once in life yet person supposedly coordinating it..
4. Do the "graduates" have pretty much a guaranteed "function" awaiting in your ministry..
5. Are you on the board among the "kid"'s advisors? Did you just kind of agree, "well, if it's da will of gawd..."
6. YOU "trained" him.. is he "functioning" within the guidelines of his "training"?
7. Why do you put his link on the top of the list on your site?
8. Do you agree with Mc*M**en's thought that the property of der vey is "holy" ground, that the powers that be are holding hostage? I read a page once on his internet site.. his high estimation of way property supposedly held captive by those who rule..
8. if he's the one really running it, don't you have at least a few concerns?
well.. just a few thoughts anyway.
:)
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waysider
Hiya, Mike
I haven't cracked open the cover of The Little Engine That Could for more than 50 years!
I think I still have a pretty good idea whats in it.
BTW--- I think that book was adapted from another one called The Pony Engine.
Just thought I'd mention that.
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ChasUFarley
I checked out CFF when I was first leaving TWI. I knew some of the ministers who were heading the thing and felt they were really trying to do the right thing with the Word they'd been taught. They were some of the most genuine men of God I've ever known (two have passed away since CFF started.)
I am also one of the few posters here who will openly admit I'm glad I took PFAL. I think it changed my life for the better and really don't give a rat's anus if there was plagiary or other issues. The message worked for me - and yes, the messenger was flawed.
But I digress...
If it works for you and your family, then go for it. I wouldn't ask this board in a million years for their input on my spiritual life. There's way too many haters, to put it bluntly and as I see it, if you're considering it then you must have checked it out (somewhat) already.
Best of luck to you in your search!
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Mike
Well, if you look back at Post #193 you'll see that I posted something simple, on-topic, and was ready to move on. I struggled valiantly to keep it on the CFF topic, but everyone else wanted to bring up other things that led directly to my bringing up the written PFAL deprivation.
But this shouldn't be surprising. If my thesis is right, that most of our difficulties were due to missing the written PFAL component, and the difficulties are the mainstay of most posters, then OF COURSE my message is going to always emerge as what went wrong and how to right it.
Man's basic spiritual problem is the integrity and accuracy of God's Word is not alive in the mind. This holds for CFF as well.
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Ham
9. How many of your "clergy" were ordained or certified by an independant, reputable school of learning, besides YOU or the Way?
10. How do you feel about old "doc" vic, not really being a "doc"?
11. Plagiarism issues.. are you aware that the "heritage" he "left us" was largely stolen? How do you feel about that?
12. How can you reconcile a belief that he was somehow a monogawd, with his history of documented abuse and evil?
13. Why would you allow a supposed prophet or something fawning over him publically, that what he has was due to da manogawd.. knowing full well the appropriate answers to question 10, 11, 12..
14. Do you really have a memorial to vic on grounds?
well.. these are the kind of questions I might ask, if I wanted to get involved with an offshoot..
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Mike
I'd like to second this, and also comment on the OTHER side of the coin as I see it.
Compared to many of the splinter groups I have approached in the last 10 years, CFF is about the most civil and gentle.
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ChasUFarley
Something more I'd like to add -
There are other - non-TWI-associated - groups that also do a good job teaching the Word and the principals in it. I've not found any local who I can really sign-on with because they're all trinitarian but they do a decent job in all other areas...
What I'm trying to say is check things out for yourself - figure out what fits best for you - but also don't limit God.
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Ham
so was twi, before the vicster got to "train" a few storm troopers..
15. Would you really recommend a session of harsh treatment as a road to spiritual success?
16. How many kids from your organization are involved with this madness..
And maybe the biggie..
17. Why does the kid think that all the "bad stuff" was just because of a few rotten apples.. why does he feel history is irrelevant.. that those who hurt are just "bitter".. why is he not really aware of the consequences of gramps beliefs and actions? Didn''t you teach him ANYTHING?
well.. a few more questions, anyway.. I've got more where those came from..
:)
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jen-o
man's basic spiritual problem is that he does not repent of his sin, and turn toward the Savior, the Lord Jesus the Messiah...
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Mike
That's pretty much the same thing I just said.
Sin is where we have the Word wrong in our minds, which sometimes even leaks out into our actions. Repenting from sin is more than completing a 12 Step program to stop some action. Repenting is changing the mind from wrong thinking to right thinking.
Messiah (Hebrew) = Christ (Greek)
Jesus Christ is the Word made flesh, so turning to him accurately and wholly (integrity = wholeness) is the same as turning to the accuracy and integrity of the Word.
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jen-o
turning to Jesus Christ is not the same as analyzing the words in the bible...
and true repentance is more than "changing your mind"...
true repentance brings you to your knees, and cuts through the heart...
it's a life altering event...
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Mike
Like you, I meant REAL change, not trivial change.
Turning to Jesus necessitates that it is GOD's Jesus we turn to, and not to a "jesus" of our own making.
Accuracy is important.
If we love him we will WANT to get his personality down accurately.
We want to become LIKE him, accurately, as God sees him, not like our own constructs of him.
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jen-o
i do agree with you...
i just don't know why you think that vpw has all the answers...
don't you just want to go directly to Jesus, instead of going to Him via vpw's perceptions?
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Neo
This may help!
Remember what Dr. said?
"Do you know why you have a problem forgiving? It is because you have forgotten what God has forgiven you for!!!"
In TNDC, pg. 172, The Church Today Dr writes;
Division always frustrates Christian efforts. May God deliver us as the Church from being contentious and difficult, from maligning our brethren, from bickering and quarrelsomeness, from dividing the Body of Christ by our lack of enlightenment. There is too much division outside the Church; our solidarity is imperative to give us strength to move forward in spite of the opposition. May the Father in heaven, for the sake of the only-begotten Son, bless us with such an abundance that we may cease to be a part of the problem and become a part of the answer. May we as members of Christ’s Body become so filled with love that we may be teachable and have our hearts opened to His Holy Word. And may we receive of Him and carry the blessing to all we meet, that they may see us and know we are His.
I sure love ALL of you, for as God said in
HIS word "FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD, THAT HE GAVE HIS ONLY BEGTTON SON!"
All my Love,
Neo
I was involved with cff, and can tell you that they are NOT teaching what Dr. realy said and wrote!!!
p.s. e-mail me if you want to know more.
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ChasUFarley
Hi Jen-O - I don't believe we've met via this board yet. A belated welcome to you.
Let me clarify my useage of the term "haters" I used in my post:
I have NO problem (and nothing but sympathy) for those who hate VPW, LCM, etc. for what they had to deal with while subjected to them. I believe the woman who repeatedly defend themselves about their experiences in the motor coach or elsewhere. Same for those who suffered any other abuse at the hands of "men of God". I also have NO problem with those who don't wish to participate in organized religion of any sort - they've been burned - I respect that. I have my war stories, let me tell you, but I also have some very positive things that came out of my involvement with TWI.
I DO have problem with those who tear down others and are disrespectful of their experiences and beliefs only because they had a bad experience (or have heard bad things about a class or organization.) If you're not sure what I'm talking about, check out any Momentus thread. People love spewing their opinion on that subject even though they haven't had any firsthand experience AND they're willing to really dog those who actually had a positive experience from it. I can tell you, firsthand, of threats my husband received from a poster at Waydale because he posted he had a positive experience with Momentus and felt he was a better believer from it - he also said he didn't subscribe to everything they taught but that he filtered it though the Word. He was treated horribly by others because of his comments and received emails threatening his job as a public school teacher because of his involvement with Momentus and because he didn't denounce it! (That's a hater, my Dear.)
The "haters" are those who give no consideration to where others are at in their spiritual life and look down their nose, into their computer monitors, as they tell others how to live their lives and how weak they are for being believers. There's some of that on this board, in case you haven't seen it. Personally, I'm of the point of view that "if it works for you - do it." I'm very tolerant of those who are into other avenues of spirituality and don't pretend to have a stranglehold on the truth like I used to. I don't care if you're Muslim, Wiccian, Baptist, or with CFF - or even still with TWI. I may not understand *why* something works for you - but I'll respect your decision.
My apologies to you if you had a bad experience with CFF. I didn't have a bad experience but was good friends with one of the founders. They were there for me when I left TWI and very helpful - even though I never gave them a dime or really asked for any help. They gave emotional and spiritual support to me at a time when I needed it. I never "joined" but can see how their teachings are attractive to those who, like me, aren't trinitarian, don't believe the dead are alive, etc.
Peace,
-Krista
Edited by ChasUFarleyLink to comment
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