Yes and the law of believing is in the Word. Without believing it's impossible to please God, he that cometh to God must believe that he is and that he is a REWARDER of thost that diligently seek him. Even Dr. Wierwille taught the Word, he never claimed to know it all. that is written in the University of Life "Thessalonians".
I believe the verse goes "Without FAITH it's impossible to please God"
Hebrews 11:6
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
That word faith, is the Greek word pistis. Which anyone who has studied that Greek word will tell, pistis is a noun and it's basic meaning is trust. Mr. Wierwille taught believing is a verb and connotes action, unfortuanely he often would refer to that word "faith" as "believing" which is incorrect.
1 john 3:1, there are several very good discussions in the doctrinal section, or in the archives where this so called "law of believing" has been discussed, you might find them interesting to review.
You comment that wierwille might have made a mistake......but then, discount the point that cff leaders are teaching it.
Then, you cite that you believe "the law of believing is in the Word." I contest that it is NOT.
Yes, there is believing.....as noted throughout the scriptures. Most Christians that I know wouldn't disagree with that at all.....nor do I. But to state that wierwille's "law of believing" is in the Word..... is higly debatable.
Let's stop making Dr. Wierwille the center of attention here. It is not Dr. Wierwille's "law of believing", it is God's law. I mentioned that Dr. Wierwille made mistakes like anyone else, I did not say everything he said or taught was a mistake. So what are you guys teaching in the Word lately. How many signs, wonders & miracles are you seeing in your lives. This is nothing more than another cult religion. It's time to let it go. There are many people who believed for God to open a door for them and then PFAL came along. May not be perfect but it worked then & works now. So go pick every word apart, then we can start on you and your words to see if you make a mistake. It's the great fruit in these ministries & the hearts of the people that count. God is prospering them spiritually because they are faithful, trustworthy & truthful on the Word. You want to monitor every word? Good Lord who made you guys judge & jury. Time to give it up and try doing something positive & loving for a change.
I normally try to stay out of the garbage debates because that's what they are. This will go no where & Pink Lady has gone thru enough spiritually, I am sure God can continue to counsel her & guide her without all the negatives here. Do you guys ever, ever say anything nice about anyone? You debate and never solve anything. Keep life simple......not religiously, legalistic. You do the very thing you accuse people of, only it's called spiritual adultry, cut people down in the name of saving someone.
Just to keep the record straight, I do not have a "group"... I'm simply a teacher of God's Word. Of necessity, we have three trustees of our non-profit organization, but there is nothing you can join! Just like The Way Inc. in 1965 when I first visited there.
My audio teachings and articles are at peterwade.com. I'm still going strong and praising God!
Blessings,
Peter Wade
God bless you Peter Wade & what a thrill it was to have you come out to CFF a few years ago. We send you and your lovely wife our love. Your website and teaching are a blessing to all who partake.
1 john 3:1, there are several very good discussions in the doctrinal section, or in the archives where this so called "law of believing" has been discussed, you might find them interesting to review.
Ya know what, it works for me, it has always worked for me and it brings fruit into my life so I shall not involve myself in this debate. Pick it a part and miss the blessings.
It is not Dr. Wierwille's "law of believing", it is God's law.
Says who? :blink:
It's the great fruit in these ministries & the hearts of the people that count
I have nothing against the hearts of the individuals there or anywhere for that matter but what GREAT fruit of any of these 'ministries' are you talking about? Aside from taped bible classes that are also available on any streetcorner, in any church, and the money making scams that they all have by selling their interpretations of God.
What have they actually done to improve anybodies lot, other than give a few a place to hang out and spend their time and money...... have they made a dent in world hunger that I havent heard about? ended homelessness? brought world peace? Built schools? Adopted orphans? Shoveled snow for old ladies? Anything at all?
What have they actually done that qualifies as great?
Ive been around long enough to know that Way and Way offshoots have never and will never do diddly squat, other than to promote themselves and stroke their contributors with a pat on the head, to get them to do their sales for them..
If thats enough for you then have at it, but there is nothing even remotely approaching 'great' about it
I do not think most of the complainers here are on the Word, at least in their posting, back biting & evil speaking.
Well, 1john, I never said I was 'on the word', nor that I even WANTED to be on it.
As far as you comment on back biting and evil speaking, if I didn't do that, Paw wouldn't pay me the big bucks he does (just so's you know, that was said with tongue firmly in cheek. Paw has yet to put me on the payroll. He doesn't even validate my parking).
Ya know what, it works for me, it has always worked for me and it brings fruit into my life so I shall not involve myself in this debate. Pick it a part and miss the blessings.
I wasn't suggesting you debate the subject of the so called "Law of believing", I was suggesting you read those discussions and maybe learn something from those who have actually taken the time and studied to show themselves approved...
When I was in TWI, many times when someone had a problem people would judge them for "lack of believing" or fear. "John is sick again, it's his lack of believing. Jane was fired from her job, it's because she had fear in her heart."
What nonsense. $h!t happens and sometimes people get hurt.
Look at the twelve disciples, 11 of them were martyred. Where was their belieivng?
How about Paul, he was whipped, beaten , ship wrecked, hungry, left for dead and eventually beheaded in Rome. Gee, he must have been a poor believer. He really could have used some believing with teeth!
I showed you from my previous post that you mistranslated the word Faith for believing. Have you actually studied the scriptures to see if these things are so? Or are you just parroting what you learned from Mr. Wierwille?
Look at the twelve disciples, 11 of them were martyred. Where was their belieivng?
How about Paul, he was whipped, beaten , ship wrecked, hungry, left for dead and eventually beheaded in Rome. Gee, he must have been a poor believer. He really could have used some believing with teeth!
Yeah......."the law of believing" is phoney baloney.
Yet, it's one of the cornerstones of wierwille's "ministry."
I'll certainly second that ----we couldnt have had a better example of the legalism that is inherent in any TWI based system...--There is a scripture and reproof for everything, as well as the pronouncement from on high that we are "off the word"
Some things never change
Where's the legalism, you are the ones that are condemning CFF, Clamining prophetically that it will be the same as TWI, CES etc. So who are you to defame CFF. You constantly criticize people, ministries, & situations that you may not even know anything about. That is off the Word because it's the speculations that go on here that are fuxxed up. Legalism, my Lord, your words are gospel? Give me a break please.............What you all say is the way it is. How much more legal can you get. I would never support a ministry that does not grow in the Word or proclaim to have ALL the answers. Love covers a multitude of sins and it seems here as if only a handfull of you guys even support each other and it's always the same people over and over again with the same complaints. Welcome the God Police.
Only God knows the heart of a person. So please tell me here which of you knows all the Word, not just the errors you proclaim to have found, but what is the Word that you teach? The spirit of God in you tells you to tell a new person do not go to this fellowship, they will probably be fxxxxd up soon or they teach the law of believing like Dr. W. did so they will show their true colors soon. In essence that's what's coming across to PL and myself and some other posters. So give it a break, stick to the facts.
Law of believing. Ever listen to your physicians???? Ever hear about their patients who believe and how they have a much higher % rate of getting better. So let's hang on the word Law? Big deal, you dote about questions that you have no answer for. Many many people have been healed, blessed and given great direction in their lives by PFAL, TWI, CFF and are still enjoying the fruit in their lives. Can't argue with success. I am sorry many did not have the same experiences we did but not everyone should be blamed for one ministries mistakes. So please tell me what church to go to that will not have mistakes, disputes, wrong doctrine. Why not spend more time on the things you have worked in your own lives and teach it instead of wasting time slinging Sxxt all the time.
After all we do have a GOD who can watch over his children like PL. She will get her deliverance because she is fed up and wants it now. So it's going to happen. Believing works. Call it a law, call it what you want. Try not believing and see where that Law gets you.
SSDD
Y
"You comment that wierwille might have made a mistake......but then, discount the point that cff leaders are teaching it."
Everything that Dr. Wierwille taught is NOT a mistake. You all learned alot of the Word there. Some things are taught.
Yes I support CFF, they have never intimidated me, coerced me nor have they ever made me feel as if I am in any kind of legalism, quite the opposite is true.
For those that feel the heebie jeebies at their website, you read my scripture, perhaps you should go and get ministered to. Many are and many are being healed. You will never hear the great testimonies that are happening at this website.
I am sure one day PL will be able to share her deliverance with you and we will all be blessed. It will come from GOD not a denomination, but perhaps thru a loving believer(s).
Mstar1 I will pray for your deliverance from all your bitterness, mistrust & anger.
Says who? :blink:
I have nothing against the hearts of the individuals there or anywhere for that matter but what GREAT fruit of any of these 'ministries' are you talking about? Aside from taped bible classes that are also available on any streetcorner, in any church, and the money making scams that they all have by selling their interpretations of God.
What have they actually done to improve anybodies lot, other than give a few a place to hang out and spend their time and money...... have they made a dent in world hunger that I havent heard about? ended homelessness? brought world peace? Built schools? Adopted orphans? Shoveled snow for old ladies? Anything at all?
What have they actually done that qualifies as great?
Ive been around long enough to know that Way and Way offshoots have never and will never do diddly squat, other than to promote themselves and stroke their contributors with a pat on the head, to get them to do their sales for them..
If thats enough for you then have at it, but there is nothing even remotely approaching 'great' about it
1. As for CFF, you will never know, you don't affiliate yourself with them. Sad very sad you are missing out on some wonderful healings and blessings, but it's your choice!
2. You have nothing against the hearts of the individuals blah,blah,blah, so why are you being so critical? You obviously have alot against these wonderful individuals & I would shut up if I were you. God will not tolorate your attacks on them. Vengence is mine saith the Lord................. GREAT FRUIT? How can you comment, when you know nothing.
3. "What have they actually done to improve anybodies lot, other than give a few a place to hang out and spend their time and money...... have they made a dent in world hunger that I havent heard about? ended homelessness? brought world peace? Built schools? Adopted orphans? Shoveled snow for old ladies? Anything at all? What have they actually done that qualifies as great?"
You really sound like you don't know very much of the Word at all? So tell us what you have done to end world hunger, the orphans etc.? I would really like to know. As a matter of fact we are also very much involved with the "poor" in India and they are getting delivered, healed and turning onto the Word at a very rapid rate. But then you wouldn't know about that because you are not involved? Oh well, again your loss. Sad
4. "Ive been around long enough to know that Way and Way offshoots have never and will never do diddly squat, other than to promote themselves and stroke their contributors with a pat on the head, to get them to do their sales for them.."
Wow it must be a great feeling to know that the spirit of God in you has given you this revelation and responsibility to spread the news, thanks, I never would have known it. It's the legalistic God Polilce at work in you again. You've been around so long, sounds like it's time for retirement, you're getting bitter. AMEN brother
"I John 3, thanks for the wonderful example of a CFF defender that you are. It really helps to see what kind of people are involved with CFF."
Yes it does and if you reread my posts I support several ministries & individuals who I believe God has worked in my heart to support. I defend anyone, not a ministry that is doing the Word and producing fruit. The titles mean nothing to me. There are great believers in every ministry. If you look for and focus on all the negatives that is all you will see. I do not need a title over my name for all to see in order to walk with and function within the Body of Christ.
Many, many of the the great believers I have met, happen to fellowship with CFF. God has worked within me to function with them also. So please share where you function within the Body of Christ and how is it blessing your life, I would really like to know. This seems like a ministry to me and they have legalistic laws, do not join this group or support that group, it's going to ruin your life because...............sure sounds legalistic & cultish. May not have started out that way but it seems to be turning out that way with endless debates.
So isn't it great that we can support who we wish and share what we wish without having to agree with each other. Such freedom in Christ.
some days i'd like to corner him with a stone :) oops he's under the stones
Exie, I am sure your continued firey darts bless the Wierwille children and grandchildren, why don't you give it a rest! You are so full of bitterness, anger and hatred it's not healthy for you. It's very
Hi 1 John. I think you have a great point here, and I'd like to play Devil's Advocate for second -
I am sure one day PL will be able to share her deliverance with you and we will all be blessed. It will come from GOD not a denomination, but perhaps thru a loving believer(s).
That's a very legitimate expectation, IMO.
Whether it be CFF or any group, I think there's an acid test that any church needs to pass, and that's the conduct of the pastor(s) and members.
The caveat is always the same in anything - no one's perfect, and everyone will make mistakes. So that's out on the table, first thing.
The conduct is important on the part of the pastor(s), as they have a range of trust and access into people's lives that goes with the service they aspire to provide in the job. How do they conduct themselves not only in public church life but in personal relationships, business, everything. Do they act one way "at church" and another in different cicumstances?
Paul speaks to this in the letters to Timothy and Titus. He's pretty specific as to the qualifications for ministers, pastors, deacons, anyone in an "elder" position in a church. He deals with the qualities of character that are needed, and less with the details of what they will do, day to day. I think the view it gives is invaluable to all concerned and involved. First and foremost - look at how the people act, what they do and less on what they say or say they'd like to do. Rubber meets the road stuff, basic. Paul literally looks for "good people".
The only way to know that is over time and observation and getting to know people. Those in a church will know what's going on, and if there's dirt being flung - the real question is how is it being dealt with? Some things are private but some things can't be - not when a person's working in a public capacity. Is the pastor open, honest, meek to listen and learn himself? How do the people interact with each other?
CFF as a teaching organization is what it is. I see it as a matter of personal decision whether a person wants to get some of what they offer, that's their business. Again - the rubber meets the road in the local fellowships and gatherings that a person goes to. Regardless of what CFF teaches and a group particpate in, that local group is going to have to speak for itself, it's conduct and values. If they're good, they're good.
Which gets to the Devil's Advocate hat - If "God" works in any situation and in fact some of the least expected, there's no reason why "He" wouldn't in CFF or anywhere else. If the people are of good heart, honest and loving, if they care and are open to others needs, good things can happen regardless of church affiliation. CFF, doesn't matter.
The train of thought that because CFF is "PFAL" based it's useless may or may not be accurate, but I would contend what's most important is the intent of the people involved, and their conduct. Doctrine is going to differ from church to church but there are basic elements to Christianity that run - should run - constant throughout. They often do, too, even when I don't or can't see it.
When we as people need help, we're so often treated like the leper - nobody will touch us. No time, no whine. I guess I want to open my eyes to a God who's there when I need Him, not when He has time. And He's there, but is anyone else?
Nothing - no thing is more powerful than two hands held together that won't let go. Eternity infuses itself into our souls when we have that one little thing, but it can be so hard to find anyone who will get our dirt on them long enough to do that. When someone does, you never forget. Doesn't matter where they're from then. Never.
Exie, I am sure your continued firey darts bless the Wierwille children and grandchildren, why don't you give it a rest! You are so full of bitterness, anger and hatred it's not healthy for you. It's very
awwwww come on, i'd say the same thing about my own father
As a matter of fact we are also very much involved with the "poor" in India and they are getting delivered, healed and turning onto the Word at a very rapid rate.
I'd like to know, do you know this PERSONALLY, or did you just hear this in a report, or hear about results based on someone elses claim?
I'm not saying it is not true, or impossible.. but I don't follow these claims like a lemming any more..
Next question: do you feel, in the organization, that you have freedom to think something like this, or to even ask an honest question, such as, is this real, or are we being led down another precipice by another charlatan?
The logic here:
1. The word reveals the power of God
2. We know the word
3. Therefore we have the power
4. Therefore it MUST be genuine..
I think there are too many assumptions here.
I've followed that train of logic before, and it didn't pan out to be what it claimed..
I'm not an unbeliever as such, but too many red flags go up in my mind..
So tell us what you have done to end world hunger, the orphans etc.? I would really like to know. As a matter of fact we are also very much involved with the "poor" in India and they are getting delivered, healed and turning onto the Word at a very rapid rate. But then you wouldn't know about that because you are not involved?
I could be wrong on this........but I think this statement is referring to Rev. Sang@t B@ins and his growing ministry work in India. Apparently, John & Wayne invited (paid expenses?) Sang@t to come to CFF and teach and share some deliverance stories from his India ministry.
If I remember, Sang@t went into the 10th corps, then graduated and went back to India.......and broke off his ties with twi. He didn't let twi get their "authoritative hooks" into him.
Sang@t's ministry and work is totally INDEPENDENT from cff.
Peter J. W@de's ministry and work is INDEPENDENT from cff.
IMO, the statement by I John 3:1 is misleading........like "they" (cff) are "very much involved with the poor in India." Why????? Because cff invited Sang@t to teach at a weekend conference???
I could be wrong.......but I don't think it's any more than that. Possibly, a little cash donation, maybe?
Remember how vpw went to solicit Jimmy Dxxp and also, Steve Hefnxr and graft their works into "his" Ohio work? Grafting in others' ministries can REALLY help boost one's ministry image. VPW did this back in the 60's.
Personally, I think its good that Christians support other Christians...........and maybe that was the intent. But, if this thing was to boost their image and graft.....well, that's not good.
Nothing - no thing is more powerful than two hands held together that won't let go. Eternity infuses itself into our souls when we have that one little thing, but it can be so hard to find anyone who will get our dirt on them long enough to do that. When someone does, you never forget. Doesn't matter where they're from then. Never.
That, my friend, is the truth...a beautiful gem, as are you.
as far as newcomers coming in and wagging their finger at me and pronouncing their judgment that God will not tolerate me, Im off "Their Word', God will impart his vengeance on me.....
Who cares?
-same old story same old song and dance that I grew so used to in wayworld, a sterling example of the love of Christ that nothing has changed
As a matter of fact we are also very much involved with the "poor" in India and they are getting delivered, healed and turning onto the Word at a very rapid rate.
I'd like to know, do you know this PERSONALLY, or did you just hear this in a report, or hear about results based on someone elses claim?
I'm not saying it is not true, or impossible.. but I don't follow these claims like a lemming any more..
Next question: do you feel, in the organization, that you have freedom to think something like this, or to even ask an honest question, such as, is this real, or are we being led down another precipice by another charlatan?
The logic here:
1. The word reveals the power of God
2. We know the word
3. Therefore we have the power
4. Therefore it MUST be genuine..
I think there are too many assumptions here.
I've followed that train of logic before, and it didn't pan out to be what it claimed..
I'm not an unbeliever as such, but too many red flags go up in my mind..
I'm still looking for an "answer" here.
In a way, I wish you didn't even bring this up..
I have no axe to grind with CFF as such.
But really..
Do you indeed have the freedom that you think you have?
Unless the Lord Almighty comes down and confirms your assertations in no uncertain terms, but HE hasn't. to me, personally..
Nothing - no thing is more powerful than two hands held together that won't let go. Eternity infuses itself into our souls when we have that one little thing, but it can be so hard to find anyone who will get our dirt on them long enough to do that. When someone does, you never forget. Doesn't matter where they're from then. Never.
i love you socks
and may i say
no thing is more powerful than two hands held together that won't let you go. Something horribly sad infuses itself into our souls when we have that one "little" thing, and it is so devastating to discover someone who will put their dirt on you (or make you feel so dirty) long enough to do that. When someone does, you never forget. doesn't matter where they're from. never.
I was recently impressed by a song lyric by a young man we've heard of - John Mayer. It's been sinking in. My wife recently bought the Continuum CD, so we'd have the book. It's really good CD and this song pertickalerly, IMO perfectly sets the boundaries for what to expect in life. The lyric goes like this:
John Mayer - Heart of Life
I hate to see you cry
Lying there in that position
There's things you need to hear
so turn off your tears
and listen.
Pain throws your heart to the ground
Love turns the whole thing around
No it won't all go the way it should
but I know the heart of life is good.
You know it's nothing new
bad news never had good timing
then the circle of your friends
will defend the silver lining
Pain throws your heart to the ground
Love turns the whole thing around
No it won't all go the way it should
but I know the heart of life is good.
Pain throws your heart to the ground
Love turns the whole thing around
Fear is a friend who's misunderstood
but I know the heart of life is good.
I know it's good.
Sooner or later, we learn that not every cloud has a silver lining. Some clouds just dump their rain and move on. I found it really interesting that this guy put that thought into a song that really is trying to make sense out of what life is about. It's honest I think.
You hear people described this way "Ah, yeah. Tom. He's got a great heart". "Cindy - great gal. She's got such a good heart".
I was tickled to hear this song say that despite what the days bring us in life, it's intentions, it's heart, is good.
Some people don't know that or believe it. For good reason. We all know - on a good day life can be so excruciating for so many humans it's not worth the time it takes to get through it. But time is all we have. If we stick around, there has to be some semblance of balance to it all. When it tips the wrong way over and over and over, what is there to hold on to?
I think this song says it. It's what I believe anyway. The essence of life is good. Not great all the time, not horrible all the time. Most of the time if I step back and look - it's good. With what I have to be thankful for, I've got credits piling up to see me through the tough days. I know you do too. "good is where you find it". It's everywhere. And to reword a remark of Mayer, the key to a successful life could be realizing there's nothing wrong with us, that we're not bad and undeserving of good, because bad things happen to us. Everyone needs to be able to look at their life when it's in pieces on the ground in front of us and see what we can do with what's there. There's good stuff there, we just need to see it. It's that way for everyone, over time.
And I know you know this. But - it's worth saying again and again. Once we know ourselves like you do we can make it work, we know how.
You said it a long time ago here - "I'll take what's coming to me in the next life and I'll take what I can get in this one".
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Outin88.
I believe the verse goes "Without FAITH it's impossible to please God"
Hebrews 11:6
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."
That word faith, is the Greek word pistis. Which anyone who has studied that Greek word will tell, pistis is a noun and it's basic meaning is trust. Mr. Wierwille taught believing is a verb and connotes action, unfortuanely he often would refer to that word "faith" as "believing" which is incorrect.
1 john 3:1, there are several very good discussions in the doctrinal section, or in the archives where this so called "law of believing" has been discussed, you might find them interesting to review.
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dmiller
I've said it before --- I'll say it again ------------
THE *LAW OF BELIEVING* is the most insidiuous teaching EVER promoted by twi.
Believing in God's ability to do, is one thing.
Believing in *believing*, is BS.
Saint and sinner alike??
Come on -- give me a break here.
Outin88 pegged it right on the money.
Docvic had a bill of goods to sell.
He believed in his ability to do so.
He received what he believed --
but (I'm willing to bet), that God had NOTHING to do with it.
CEO's of many companies *promote their goods*,
and *God* never entered into the equation.
Docvic was NO different.
Docvic was no more than an Amway salesman,
promoting soap, to the great *unwashed* multitude.
Sadly --we *bought* the product, and signed up to do the same.
While I have heard some of CFF's teachings (and thought them admirable),
I will never see the Law of believing as either a law, or legitimate,
no matter who propounds it.
It's a lie from Hell. (My Imo -- and I'm sticking to it).
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1 john 3:1
Let's stop making Dr. Wierwille the center of attention here. It is not Dr. Wierwille's "law of believing", it is God's law. I mentioned that Dr. Wierwille made mistakes like anyone else, I did not say everything he said or taught was a mistake. So what are you guys teaching in the Word lately. How many signs, wonders & miracles are you seeing in your lives. This is nothing more than another cult religion. It's time to let it go. There are many people who believed for God to open a door for them and then PFAL came along. May not be perfect but it worked then & works now. So go pick every word apart, then we can start on you and your words to see if you make a mistake. It's the great fruit in these ministries & the hearts of the people that count. God is prospering them spiritually because they are faithful, trustworthy & truthful on the Word. You want to monitor every word? Good Lord who made you guys judge & jury. Time to give it up and try doing something positive & loving for a change.
I normally try to stay out of the garbage debates because that's what they are. This will go no where & Pink Lady has gone thru enough spiritually, I am sure God can continue to counsel her & guide her without all the negatives here. Do you guys ever, ever say anything nice about anyone? You debate and never solve anything. Keep life simple......not religiously, legalistic. You do the very thing you accuse people of, only it's called spiritual adultry, cut people down in the name of saving someone.
God bless you Peter Wade & what a thrill it was to have you come out to CFF a few years ago. We send you and your lovely wife our love. Your website and teaching are a blessing to all who partake.
Ya know what, it works for me, it has always worked for me and it brings fruit into my life so I shall not involve myself in this debate. Pick it a part and miss the blessings.
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Bramble
Ahh, so that mother's fear really did kill that little boy? Her fear caused her son adndthe driver of the vehicle that hit him to make mistakes?
So then, if I'm believing, I can make other people do what I want??
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dmiller
Sadly -- (or not), that is not true.
Don't know about you, but I used to sell insurance for a living.
The company I worked for was started by W. Clement Stone.
He was a BIG FAN of Napolean Hill (Think and Grow Rich),
and Og Mandigo, who propounded the same BS, about "believing".
The *mind over matter* teachings I heard from all of them,
were re-iterated by docvic, but with bible verses.
Docvic was in the same time frame as these shucksters.
Makes sense (to me) that he picked upon their *teachings*.
So -- enough about my *earthly mentors*, in sales.
Let's look at Docvic, and what he taught/ propounded.
He took a concept from the *sales pros* of his time,
and parlayed that into a *Law* for us to follow.
I've been to MANY sales seminars, where ---
*THE LAW OF BELIEVING* has been taught -- and NO SCRIPTURE.
Docvic couldn't hold a candle to these other guys.
He copied their work, just like he did all the other stuff.
He passed it off as his own.
He is a F****** fake, as is his F****** *Law of Believing*.
The *law of believing* puts the *blame* on the believers trying to do their best.
It *absolves* the *ministry* of blame.
If you don't receive it --it's YOU'RE fault, not ours.
I P!$$ on twi and this teaching from a very great height.
It is evil incarnate.
(edited for spelling)
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mstar1
I have nothing against the hearts of the individuals there or anywhere for that matter but what GREAT fruit of any of these 'ministries' are you talking about? Aside from taped bible classes that are also available on any streetcorner, in any church, and the money making scams that they all have by selling their interpretations of God.
What have they actually done to improve anybodies lot, other than give a few a place to hang out and spend their time and money...... have they made a dent in world hunger that I havent heard about? ended homelessness? brought world peace? Built schools? Adopted orphans? Shoveled snow for old ladies? Anything at all?
What have they actually done that qualifies as great?
Ive been around long enough to know that Way and Way offshoots have never and will never do diddly squat, other than to promote themselves and stroke their contributors with a pat on the head, to get them to do their sales for them..
If thats enough for you then have at it, but there is nothing even remotely approaching 'great' about it
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Sushi
Well, 1john, I never said I was 'on the word', nor that I even WANTED to be on it.
As far as you comment on back biting and evil speaking, if I didn't do that, Paw wouldn't pay me the big bucks he does (just so's you know, that was said with tongue firmly in cheek. Paw has yet to put me on the payroll. He doesn't even validate my parking).
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Outin88.
I wasn't suggesting you debate the subject of the so called "Law of believing", I was suggesting you read those discussions and maybe learn something from those who have actually taken the time and studied to show themselves approved...
When I was in TWI, many times when someone had a problem people would judge them for "lack of believing" or fear. "John is sick again, it's his lack of believing. Jane was fired from her job, it's because she had fear in her heart."
What nonsense. $h!t happens and sometimes people get hurt.
Look at the twelve disciples, 11 of them were martyred. Where was their belieivng?
How about Paul, he was whipped, beaten , ship wrecked, hungry, left for dead and eventually beheaded in Rome. Gee, he must have been a poor believer. He really could have used some believing with teeth!
I showed you from my previous post that you mistranslated the word Faith for believing. Have you actually studied the scriptures to see if these things are so? Or are you just parroting what you learned from Mr. Wierwille?
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skyrider
Yeah......."the law of believing" is phoney baloney.
Yet, it's one of the cornerstones of wierwille's "ministry."
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excathedra
some days i'd like to corner him with a stone :) oops he's under the stones
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1 john 3:1
Y
"You comment that wierwille might have made a mistake......but then, discount the point that cff leaders are teaching it."
Everything that Dr. Wierwille taught is NOT a mistake. You all learned alot of the Word there. Some things are taught.
Yes I support CFF, they have never intimidated me, coerced me nor have they ever made me feel as if I am in any kind of legalism, quite the opposite is true.
For those that feel the heebie jeebies at their website, you read my scripture, perhaps you should go and get ministered to. Many are and many are being healed. You will never hear the great testimonies that are happening at this website.
I am sure one day PL will be able to share her deliverance with you and we will all be blessed. It will come from GOD not a denomination, but perhaps thru a loving believer(s).
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1 john 3:1
Mstar1 I will pray for your deliverance from all your bitterness, mistrust & anger.
1. As for CFF, you will never know, you don't affiliate yourself with them. Sad very sad you are missing out on some wonderful healings and blessings, but it's your choice!
2. You have nothing against the hearts of the individuals blah,blah,blah, so why are you being so critical? You obviously have alot against these wonderful individuals & I would shut up if I were you. God will not tolorate your attacks on them. Vengence is mine saith the Lord................. GREAT FRUIT? How can you comment, when you know nothing.
3. "What have they actually done to improve anybodies lot, other than give a few a place to hang out and spend their time and money...... have they made a dent in world hunger that I havent heard about? ended homelessness? brought world peace? Built schools? Adopted orphans? Shoveled snow for old ladies? Anything at all? What have they actually done that qualifies as great?"
You really sound like you don't know very much of the Word at all? So tell us what you have done to end world hunger, the orphans etc.? I would really like to know. As a matter of fact we are also very much involved with the "poor" in India and they are getting delivered, healed and turning onto the Word at a very rapid rate. But then you wouldn't know about that because you are not involved? Oh well, again your loss. Sad
4. "Ive been around long enough to know that Way and Way offshoots have never and will never do diddly squat, other than to promote themselves and stroke their contributors with a pat on the head, to get them to do their sales for them.."
Wow it must be a great feeling to know that the spirit of God in you has given you this revelation and responsibility to spread the news, thanks, I never would have known it. It's the legalistic God Polilce at work in you again. You've been around so long, sounds like it's time for retirement, you're getting bitter. AMEN brother
Please spare us the ugly bitterness.
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1 john 3:1
"I John 3, thanks for the wonderful example of a CFF defender that you are. It really helps to see what kind of people are involved with CFF."
Yes it does and if you reread my posts I support several ministries & individuals who I believe God has worked in my heart to support. I defend anyone, not a ministry that is doing the Word and producing fruit. The titles mean nothing to me. There are great believers in every ministry. If you look for and focus on all the negatives that is all you will see. I do not need a title over my name for all to see in order to walk with and function within the Body of Christ.
Many, many of the the great believers I have met, happen to fellowship with CFF. God has worked within me to function with them also. So please share where you function within the Body of Christ and how is it blessing your life, I would really like to know. This seems like a ministry to me and they have legalistic laws, do not join this group or support that group, it's going to ruin your life because...............sure sounds legalistic & cultish. May not have started out that way but it seems to be turning out that way with endless debates.
So isn't it great that we can support who we wish and share what we wish without having to agree with each other. Such freedom in Christ.
Exie, I am sure your continued firey darts bless the Wierwille children and grandchildren, why don't you give it a rest! You are so full of bitterness, anger and hatred it's not healthy for you. It's very
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socks
Hi 1 John. I think you have a great point here, and I'd like to play Devil's Advocate for second -
I am sure one day PL will be able to share her deliverance with you and we will all be blessed. It will come from GOD not a denomination, but perhaps thru a loving believer(s).
That's a very legitimate expectation, IMO.
Whether it be CFF or any group, I think there's an acid test that any church needs to pass, and that's the conduct of the pastor(s) and members.
The caveat is always the same in anything - no one's perfect, and everyone will make mistakes. So that's out on the table, first thing.
The conduct is important on the part of the pastor(s), as they have a range of trust and access into people's lives that goes with the service they aspire to provide in the job. How do they conduct themselves not only in public church life but in personal relationships, business, everything. Do they act one way "at church" and another in different cicumstances?
Paul speaks to this in the letters to Timothy and Titus. He's pretty specific as to the qualifications for ministers, pastors, deacons, anyone in an "elder" position in a church. He deals with the qualities of character that are needed, and less with the details of what they will do, day to day. I think the view it gives is invaluable to all concerned and involved. First and foremost - look at how the people act, what they do and less on what they say or say they'd like to do. Rubber meets the road stuff, basic. Paul literally looks for "good people".
The only way to know that is over time and observation and getting to know people. Those in a church will know what's going on, and if there's dirt being flung - the real question is how is it being dealt with? Some things are private but some things can't be - not when a person's working in a public capacity. Is the pastor open, honest, meek to listen and learn himself? How do the people interact with each other?
CFF as a teaching organization is what it is. I see it as a matter of personal decision whether a person wants to get some of what they offer, that's their business. Again - the rubber meets the road in the local fellowships and gatherings that a person goes to. Regardless of what CFF teaches and a group particpate in, that local group is going to have to speak for itself, it's conduct and values. If they're good, they're good.
Which gets to the Devil's Advocate hat - If "God" works in any situation and in fact some of the least expected, there's no reason why "He" wouldn't in CFF or anywhere else. If the people are of good heart, honest and loving, if they care and are open to others needs, good things can happen regardless of church affiliation. CFF, doesn't matter.
The train of thought that because CFF is "PFAL" based it's useless may or may not be accurate, but I would contend what's most important is the intent of the people involved, and their conduct. Doctrine is going to differ from church to church but there are basic elements to Christianity that run - should run - constant throughout. They often do, too, even when I don't or can't see it.
When we as people need help, we're so often treated like the leper - nobody will touch us. No time, no whine. I guess I want to open my eyes to a God who's there when I need Him, not when He has time. And He's there, but is anyone else?
Nothing - no thing is more powerful than two hands held together that won't let go. Eternity infuses itself into our souls when we have that one little thing, but it can be so hard to find anyone who will get our dirt on them long enough to do that. When someone does, you never forget. Doesn't matter where they're from then. Never.
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excathedra
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Ham
I'd like to know, do you know this PERSONALLY, or did you just hear this in a report, or hear about results based on someone elses claim?
I'm not saying it is not true, or impossible.. but I don't follow these claims like a lemming any more..
Next question: do you feel, in the organization, that you have freedom to think something like this, or to even ask an honest question, such as, is this real, or are we being led down another precipice by another charlatan?
The logic here:
1. The word reveals the power of God
2. We know the word
3. Therefore we have the power
4. Therefore it MUST be genuine..
I think there are too many assumptions here.
I've followed that train of logic before, and it didn't pan out to be what it claimed..
I'm not an unbeliever as such, but too many red flags go up in my mind..
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skyrider
I could be wrong on this........but I think this statement is referring to Rev. Sang@t B@ins and his growing ministry work in India. Apparently, John & Wayne invited (paid expenses?) Sang@t to come to CFF and teach and share some deliverance stories from his India ministry.
If I remember, Sang@t went into the 10th corps, then graduated and went back to India.......and broke off his ties with twi. He didn't let twi get their "authoritative hooks" into him.
Sang@t's ministry and work is totally INDEPENDENT from cff.
Peter J. W@de's ministry and work is INDEPENDENT from cff.
IMO, the statement by I John 3:1 is misleading........like "they" (cff) are "very much involved with the poor in India." Why????? Because cff invited Sang@t to teach at a weekend conference???
I could be wrong.......but I don't think it's any more than that. Possibly, a little cash donation, maybe?
Remember how vpw went to solicit Jimmy Dxxp and also, Steve Hefnxr and graft their works into "his" Ohio work? Grafting in others' ministries can REALLY help boost one's ministry image. VPW did this back in the 60's.
Personally, I think its good that Christians support other Christians...........and maybe that was the intent. But, if this thing was to boost their image and graft.....well, that's not good.
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Linda Z
Socks said:
That, my friend, is the truth...a beautiful gem, as are you.
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mstar1
I'll agree with that Linda
as far as newcomers coming in and wagging their finger at me and pronouncing their judgment that God will not tolerate me, Im off "Their Word', God will impart his vengeance on me.....
Who cares?
-same old story same old song and dance that I grew so used to in wayworld, a sterling example of the love of Christ that nothing has changed
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waterbuffalo
I'll second that, MStar.
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Ham
I'm still looking for an "answer" here.
In a way, I wish you didn't even bring this up..
I have no axe to grind with CFF as such.
But really..
Do you indeed have the freedom that you think you have?
Unless the Lord Almighty comes down and confirms your assertations in no uncertain terms, but HE hasn't. to me, personally..
I am FORCED to default to the scientific method.
first two steps:
(and there are more..)
1. make an observation
2. ask a question
Do we have the FREEDOM to ask these questions?
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excathedra
i love you socks
and may i say
no thing is more powerful than two hands held together that won't let you go. Something horribly sad infuses itself into our souls when we have that one "little" thing, and it is so devastating to discover someone who will put their dirt on you (or make you feel so dirty) long enough to do that. When someone does, you never forget. doesn't matter where they're from. never.
I trust you know what i mean....
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socks
Thanks Linda Z.
Excora, the law of opposites applies as always -
"Life is cool. When it doesn't suck".
"Life sucks. When it isn't cool".
I was recently impressed by a song lyric by a young man we've heard of - John Mayer. It's been sinking in. My wife recently bought the Continuum CD, so we'd have the book. It's really good CD and this song pertickalerly, IMO perfectly sets the boundaries for what to expect in life. The lyric goes like this:
John Mayer - Heart of Life
I hate to see you cry
Lying there in that position
There's things you need to hear
so turn off your tears
and listen.
Pain throws your heart to the ground
Love turns the whole thing around
No it won't all go the way it should
but I know the heart of life is good.
You know it's nothing new
bad news never had good timing
then the circle of your friends
will defend the silver lining
Pain throws your heart to the ground
Love turns the whole thing around
No it won't all go the way it should
but I know the heart of life is good.
Pain throws your heart to the ground
Love turns the whole thing around
Fear is a friend who's misunderstood
but I know the heart of life is good.
I know it's good.
Sooner or later, we learn that not every cloud has a silver lining. Some clouds just dump their rain and move on. I found it really interesting that this guy put that thought into a song that really is trying to make sense out of what life is about. It's honest I think.
You hear people described this way "Ah, yeah. Tom. He's got a great heart". "Cindy - great gal. She's got such a good heart".
I was tickled to hear this song say that despite what the days bring us in life, it's intentions, it's heart, is good.
Some people don't know that or believe it. For good reason. We all know - on a good day life can be so excruciating for so many humans it's not worth the time it takes to get through it. But time is all we have. If we stick around, there has to be some semblance of balance to it all. When it tips the wrong way over and over and over, what is there to hold on to?
I think this song says it. It's what I believe anyway. The essence of life is good. Not great all the time, not horrible all the time. Most of the time if I step back and look - it's good. With what I have to be thankful for, I've got credits piling up to see me through the tough days. I know you do too. "good is where you find it". It's everywhere. And to reword a remark of Mayer, the key to a successful life could be realizing there's nothing wrong with us, that we're not bad and undeserving of good, because bad things happen to us. Everyone needs to be able to look at their life when it's in pieces on the ground in front of us and see what we can do with what's there. There's good stuff there, we just need to see it. It's that way for everyone, over time.
And I know you know this. But - it's worth saying again and again. Once we know ourselves like you do we can make it work, we know how.
You said it a long time ago here - "I'll take what's coming to me in the next life and I'll take what I can get in this one".
You've got a lot of gettin'g to get!
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excathedra
i do agree, my dear socks
love,ex
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